Frenulum Tying!

Now i'm leaving the skin healing for some time. But i'm a little worried about the next tie: the last part of the frenulum seems more thick than the part i tied in the prevoius ties. Maybe it's only inflammation due to the recent tie. Do you have experience about tying the last part of the frenulum?


ashflip;722369 said:
Guys please help me if I have tied it properly or not. Itz been 7 days still I can feel little pain.

Image after 2 days
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Image after 8 days
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
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your tie seems good, if it isn't loose wait some other days.

Teasle;722311 said:
well my case is over :D the cotton string came off 3 hours later and i cant get it tied with the magic string it comes off instantly so :(...
Click to expand...

will you try it again (or try other kinds of tie)?
 
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Well, I did it my first tying with .5mm stretch magic, 16G piercing needle, and some numb master. There was no pain at all well actually no feeling at all that numb master works great and like 2 drops of blood over the first hour. Unfortunately, I think I did it a little too far down and not close enough to the head. I guess that will be where I tie the second time.
 
Hello guys, just registered today.


Read through all the 49 pages, the procedure looks amazing. Gathering the items needed to do it at the moment, but still a bit scared to perform it by myself. I think that must be very common among those who did it, we have only one penis after all. Will have to find some courage before doing it .


Any tips about the procedure? Like common newbie mystakes to avoid?

thanks
 
gg82;722982 said:
Hello guys, just registered today.


Read through all the 49 pages, the procedure looks amazing. Gathering the items needed to do it at the moment, but still a bit scared to perform it by myself. I think that must be very common among those who did it, we have only one penis after all. Will have to find some courage before doing it .


Any tips about the procedure? Like common newbie mystakes to avoid?

thanks
Click to expand...

To have more courage, just think about how great it is to free your dickhead completely,

And my tip is to put Bacitracine on the needle before trying to get it through your skin,
It will go through much easier,
Finally, i would advise to leave the thread long enough, that you can tighten it with your fingers later, if you feel like it loosening.

Goodluck bro,
 
I suggest getting a piercing needle I used a 16G (they sent the wrong size lol I was going to use 20G) and Numb master from amazon I didn't feel a single thing! I also left the piercing needle in and put the stretch magic through it so I wasn't irritating the skin any more than I had to. I also put some of the numb master on the needle and it went through like butter.

Good luck!
 
Hey all,
read this thread from the first message to the last one

and yesterday did my first tie, having second thoughts like was it tight enough??
what were your experiences.
help is greatly appreciated. as i am nervous
 
SWAGGER;723269 said:
Hey all,
read this thread from the first message to the last one

and yesterday did my first tie, having second thoughts like was it tight enough??
what were your experiences.
help is greatly appreciated. as i am nervous
Click to expand...

I always felt like it was not tight enough,
So on the day 7th (at my first try), still nothing showed, so i removed the thread and made a new one,
And this one i did pretty much like everybody, i put it in warm salt water every night, and i can see the hole in just few days after.
It's done just within 4-5 days,

But just 3 days ago, i saw a tiny hole of the tie i did the first time, so i have to make a tie through that hole so it will be completed,
It's snatched today since it's a very small piece of skin after i did the second over the first one.

So my advise is to be patient and wait til around day 10, and make the thread long enough that you can tighten it again.
 
Averynicefish;723273 said:
So my advise is to be patient and wait til around day 10, and make the thread long enough that you can tighten it again.
Click to expand...

does surgical knot allows to tighten after? or did you use another kind of knot? thanks
 
gg82;723280 said:
does surgical knot allows to tighten after? or did you use another kind of knot? thanks
Click to expand...

The first tie, i did surgical knot, but i cut the thread really short, so i couldn't tighten it anymore, so i'm not sure if you can do that.
But i think you can tighten after with a normal knot, that's what i did for my 2nd tie.
 
negi;723086 said:
I suggest getting a piercing needle I used a 16G (they sent the wrong size lol I was going to use 20G) and Numb master from amazon I didn't feel a single thing! I also left the piercing needle in and put the stretch magic through it so I wasn't irritating the skin any more than I had to. I also put some of the numb master on the needle and it went through like butter. Good luck!
Click to expand...
i used a 23g syringe needle and it's always painful to pierce, do you think a smaller diameter (16g) will help?
 
max999;723353 said:
i used a 23g syringe needle and it's always painful to pierce, do you think a smaller diameter (16g) will help?
Click to expand...

A 23G is smaller than a 16g the higher the number the smaller the diameter kinda counter intuitive lol. And I didn't feel anything because I used a numbing agent called numb master from amazon. but the smaller the better I would think just not smaller than what your tying with lol.

this should help
https://www.wirejewelry.com/jewelry-making-blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/1.425457wiregauges.jpg
 
I am so glad I came across this forum. I did my first tie yesterday with negligible pain and no bleeding. Though I used basic knot, I am pretty sure it is tight enough. However by seeing photos of others on the forum I am wondering whether I tied the right flesh to see the results. I pierced just below the white tissue so that the thread was only able to hold the frenulum (found veins under that). Please advise if I need to untie right away and make another tie piercing closer to the shaft. I will try to post pics tomorrow.

Thanks.
 
Nicksmy;723622 said:
I am so glad I came across this forum. I did my first tie yesterday with negligible pain and no bleeding. Though I used basic knot, I am pretty sure it is tight enough. However by seeing photos of others on the forum I am wondering whether I tied the right flesh to see the results. I pierced just below the white tissue so that the thread was only able to hold the frenulum (found veins under that). Please advise if I need to untie right away and make another tie piercing closer to the shaft. I will try to post pics tomorrow.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Everything seems ok to me,
It's been days already so i wonder what you did do with it.
 
Surprised to see the first tie came off in 6 days. The link that was cut looks to have let the skin behind frenulum to stretch for about 5-6mm. When erect it now appears slightly longer than before which is amazing tbh.
I did another tie today right under previous one and hoping for better results. This time the piercing was not as easy as earlier. It bruised a bit possibly because of shorter frenulum available or because the skin might still be healing from the first cut. However no bleeding or pain once tied up.

Without any doubt, this forum has really helped me do this with confidence. Keep you updated on the progress.
 
i have been a long time lurker, but now i am finally getting the courage to do this and be able to fully pull back my foreskin!

does anyone know who I can ask to be added to the flickr group so i can take a better look at others' success? my username is sevenxfive if anyone with admin rights can help, many thanks if you can.

thanks for being a great community either way! :)
 
Well, my journey towards complete foreskin freedom is now well under way and has happened in several distinct phases.

Phase 1 - Ignorance is Bliss
I was aware of the restrictive effect of my frenulum from the age of nine or so but it wasn't until it got hurt during sex many years later that I took any real notice of it.

Phase 2 - Research
Using the enormous amount of information on the web I realised that I had a mild to moderate case of Frenulum Breve. I looked into stretching exercises and by accident stumbled on information about frenulum tying. I decided that this might be the solution for me and concentrated on finding out all I could.

Phase 3 - Experimentation
The first experiments were very simple: can I bring myself to push an ordinary sewing needle through my frenulum and will it bleed? The answers to those two questions were "yes" and "no". I learnt in the process that my frenulum was extremely tough. On the next occasion I threaded a needle to see what it felt like to pull the thread through my frenulum. The last experiment involved choosing the position for the first tie and realising that detaching the frenulum from the glans was more important than just severing it.

Phase 4 - The First Tie
The first tie was intended to detach the frenulum from its furthest point (adjacent to the meatus in my case) down the glans about 6mm. I used the same sewing needle, dipped in whiskey and threaded with 0.5mm Stretch Magic. I pierced my frenulum very close to the glans and about 6mm back from the meatus. I used a surgeon's knot and tied it very tight. I applied Sudocreme regularly and went about normal activities for five days. At the end of this time I concluded that nothing was happening and I carefully cut the knot and removed the Stretch Magic. Only then did I realise that I had made a slit about 3mm long and the job was about half done.

Phase 5 - The Second Tie
After a few more days I decided to re-tie with a view to finishing the job. This time it was easy and I could just feed a short length of Stretch Magic through the little slit made by the first tie and again tie it really tight. On the following day I put in another knot and tied that really tight. The day after that I cut both ties using a pair of nail clippers and removed both ties. There was now only the tiniest thread holding my frenulum to the glans right by the meatus. I took a tiny pair of sharp scissors and snipped this off. No pain and no bleeding.

Phase 6 - What have I done?
This phase only lasted about 24 hours.

Phase 7 - Planning The Next Tie
The result is even better than I had hoped for. My frenulum is almost completely detached from the surface of my glans and I have freed up about 12mm of extra movement. The job was almost painless and there was no bleeding at any time. Soon I will make a smaller tie to free up my rather substantial foreskin completely.

Many thanks to all previous contributors to this thread who collectively gave me the confidence to do this. I am delighted with the result from both a practical and a cosmetic point of view.
 
Started my frenulum tying yesterday, thanks everyone for all the info in the thread. I do wish there was a better guide, I had to read through quite a bit to learn what I thought I needed. I tied about 6-8mm from the top of the frenulum, as close to the base as possible. I used .009 fishing line, which is only slightly elastic, I'll probably retie at least once a day. Unfortunately, I went a little too crazy with cleaning, and forgot to verify that I had a particular item before I started, that'll come into play later.

I used a brand new sewing needle, boiled first, I'm not sure of the diameter but the fishing line was almost too big to go through. Cleaned the area thoroughly with antibacterial soap, and used a small alcohol wipe for good measure. Pierced through easy, actually had to redo it because I was too far down, tied a couple surgeon knots and the deed was done, I soaked it in warm water mixed with a bit of antibacterial soap later that night. Also applied some Neosporin.

Woke up this morning with no pain whatsoever, but there was definitely a hole opening up in the frenulum. I retied it just a bit tighter, which resulted in a little bit of blood. Whenever I see blood, the first thing I want to do is dab peroxide. on it, but I realized I didn't have any, I also had to leave so I had to think fast. So what did I do? Grabbed some hand sanitizer, very bad idea, do not ever do this. Honestly, I had heard of this before, but I figured if I just used a tiny amount, it would be fine. Well.. it wasn't. Irritated the whole head of my penis, and later my foreskin, even after rinsing it off almost immediately. So now, I'm left with a red, slightly swollen foreskin, only two days into my first tie. It does feel better than it did a few hours ago, especially after a warm soak and an application of Neosporin, but I'm afraid I'll have to remove the tie in the morning if it's not much better.

So tldr, don't be lazy like me and use hand sanitizer anywhere near your most important area. If I had used more, or not been able to rinse it off, I might be in a worse situation.
 
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I'm having some problems.
As I explained some posts ago, my first tie went really good (here is a pic: https://i.imgur.com/wDUPTiH.jpg).
During my second tie, something went wrong: the knot lost tightness and the hole in the frenulum disappeared, so it was impossible to re-tie. I thought the problem was that I used a "normal" knot instead of a surgeon's knot.
So I tried a third tie using a surgeon's knot. I followed the same procedure used during the first tie. Also this time something went wrong, the thread didn't cut throught the frenulum, the hole never started to expand: extracting the thread from the frenulum was a little difficult because the hole was very very small.

I don't know what i'm doing wrong, any ideas?
 
I made my second tie this morning, a smaller tie than the first one. Because the part of the frenulum that I want to detach from the glans this time looks to have some veins in it, I decided to shine a torch through the frenulum to help me choose precisely where to pierce with the needle. I chose the spot where the light passed through most easily and put the needle through at that point. This had the unexpected advantage of being very easy to pierce compared to my first tie - this time the needle went through very easily and, while there was little discomfort with the first tie, there was none at all this time. Just a tip for anyone else making ties in future.
 
FrenBreve,

did you tie off the vein? I have completed 2 successful ties, In need of a third, but there is a rather decent sized vein right where I need to do the 3rd tie. Its unavoidable, always something.. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this forum.

One thing that I noticed, It was recommended by some forum members to soak the tied area in warm water for 15 minutes 3 times a day. I found that this actually delayed or made the process slower as the suture used became softer and lost its tightening power, had to retie a few times. maybe I used the wrong knot, but it felt looser after I soaked for some reason. after I stopped soaking, I was able to cut through in 4 days using stretch magic. just my 2 cents. I used the following if anyone is interested.

1. 16g piercing needle. almost no pain even without numbing. hollow so you can thread the suture through
2. stretch magic .5mm, cuts through like knife through butter
3. numb master. best stuff that I found for numbing.
 
Just completed my second tie in less than five days from tying to breaking through. Used 0.5mm Stretch Magic threaded through an ordinary sewing needle dipped in whiskey prior to piercing. As I said in a previous post, I used a torch to identify the ideal place to pierce, avoiding blood vessels and any thicker tissue. I tied on Monday morning and left long tails on the knot. I wrapped the tails around my glans after tying and rolled my foreskin forward again to hold them in place. On Tuesday evening I used the same needle to pass the tails through the tiny hole that was beginning to open up behind Monday's tie, and tied again very tight. On Thursday morning I repeated this process with a third very tight knot. Yesterday evening I went to make a fourth knot but as I pulled my foreskin back the ties broke through. No pain and no blood, and another 6mm or so of freedom. My rather substantial foreskin is now much more free than it used to be but in the next few days I will consider whether or not to make a third tie. I am delighted with the results so far. Nevertheless, you make your own decision as to whether or not to go ahead with a frenulum tie!
 
FrenBreve;727205 said:
I am delighted with the results so far. Nevertheless, you make your own decision as to whether or not to go ahead with a frenulum tie!
Click to expand...

Hey, after doing some google searches I found this site yesterday and decided to join because of this... So happy as to be honest it felt like I was deformed or something and never been able to talk about it!

Read every post and probably will do again... but wondered if I put a couple of photos up if anyone would be willing to help out with the placement of the tying etc?

FrenBreve - Do you have any photos so far - haha just picking on you as I know this subject has been going a while and you're the most recent to post! :)
 
Thought I'd give an update - it took 4 days to cut through... I was just going to put some cream on and the knot came loose - it's a little tender to touch/stretch but out of curiosity it's given almost 1cm of slack but will need another tie - possibly in a week or two when this has healed but very impressed already :)

I'll post a photo in the next day or two when it's healed a little
 
Hi Frenulum Tyers,
I'm about to do the same- so glad to read all the success stories. I'm arecently cicumcised (2 months now) - and I was cut moderately but with frenulum left intact.
Never had a problem with it before, or not so I noticed, but damn the things right now! Banjo string is very apt description!
Talked to my dickhead doctor who agrees it's very tight but doesn't want to do anything until the 6 month mark.
So taking matters into my own hands!
I have been doing some skin tugging and light jelqing and that has helped with overall tightness but this frenulum is pulling head of dick down and it is very uncomfortable. So it's got to go.
Now I've noticed people discussing veins in the frenulum and that's what I need help on.
I'm going to tie off very close to the glans where the skin is the tightest- so far so good. Now originally I was going to go deep next to shaft and get this mother in one go , BUT there is a small blue vein imbedded about halfway in the frenulum membrane.
So say frenulum is about 10mm deep at this point , the vein runs about 5mm deep through the length of it . So I'm going to tie off ABOVE the vein, so cutting about 3-4mm deep.
Okay
My question is : Has anyone gone back and done a second tie that involves a vein and was there any problems ?

Veins are ended and sown up and cauterised and mucked around with all the time in surgery ; and generally it seems it doesn't matter, the body just rerouts the blood to other veins.
However, this is my precious dick here and I want to be sure before I tie off that thing.
Hopefully you guys have come across this before. I'm still going to do it in two goes as I want the first tie to get real close to the glans where the banjo string is white with strain.
By the way I measured around 6.2 inches pre-circumcision,
Now about 0.5 inch shorter!!
Hopefully get some length back with this technique then start some PE stuff again.
Just got to go slow as I don't want to jeopardise the circ scar healing.
Want to get a Bathgate as well for stretching but need to sort all this stuff first.
I've got my cream, elastic thread & needles , alcohol swabs, etc
Just want some vein advice
Thanks in advance guys
 
Hi FrenBrave
I posted long addition to thread below but I saw in your post that you identified where your VEINS where.
But did you include them in your tie?
Or did you pierce and tie above them ?
Keen to know
 
Hi Southernlad,
Hope the tie goes well - I'm not sure about the vein though... sorry - I'm going to do a second tie this week - I went for about 4/5mm and really need to do another but it felt like enough for the first time putting a needle in my dick haha. I've just checked mine and can't see any blue vein - just the tiny red ones. I hope you get an answer soon though! I got just over a cm in extra slack and in length - I think really as dick isn't held back so much, hopefully a bit more for the next one.

It was a little tender for the week afterwards so going to do the second on Sunday.

Hope you get an answer on the vein issue but have a search on this thread as there was quite a lot of discussion about veins - I can't remember the outcome though.

Good luck mate :)
 
Hi Joseph
Yeah veins are mentioned But Not whether they were actually tied.
Doesn't matter - I'll do first tie and then reevaluate.
A lot of threads talk about multiple ties so that's what will probably happen.
Good luck with yours
I'd post some before and after pictures but not sure how to do that
 
Good luck Southernlad... I am sure I read that someone else had but I guess if you're unsure go half way in before the vein, I guess it gets the first one out of the way! I've just woke up but will take a photo of after the first tie in a bit and post it up - I did mine to imgur as didn't need to register and then posted the link it gave.

Let me know how the first one goes - it's pretty scary but once the needle went through on mine (the vaseline was a must to lubricate the needle as it came through the other side it did pull a little) but no blood or real pain, at worst like squeezing a spot. I'll do that pic later then get ready to do my new one Sunday - I'm really hoping that'll be the last one but if not will just do it again :)
 
Hit the wrong button!
Was trying to say that I would have gone to different doctor and had frenulum removed st same time.
This doctor use a Mogen clamp which leaves frenulum intact
My aim is to get at least half an inch more slack - if like to be smooth as underneath so I imagine a couple of months of work ahead of me!
First one won't be for a few days as I don't have the time
 
haha, I do that all the time - normally when sending texts!

I'm the same - want to get rid of it and ideally all the skin pulls back properly... I've just tried to take a pic but my phone is being a dick this morning so will try again in a bit.

I'm only putting off the 2nd tying to Sunday as it's just feeling like it's healed and didn't want it to be uncomfortable as I tied tighter each morning, it was only 4 days until it cut through though :)

The awesome thing was that I didn't notice it after it was done, just mornings I'd fill a mug of warm water with salt and sit down with it between my legs with my dick hanging in there while I browsed facebook, shower and then rubbed antiseptic cream on around 3/4 times a day :)

Be good to hear how it's going for you and I'll post up that pic of it today then the next tie etc and see how it goes!
 
Hi guys,

this is what I archived with my technique last year. The photos are made with fully erected penis and glans is puppy pumped, otherwise the scar and traces of frenulum on glans are visible:


 
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Hey Brahmanion,

Be great to see your results - the attachments don't seem to work for me though :(

Out of interest how many times did you do the tying?

Cheers :)
 
joseph3007;730940 said:
Hey Brahmanion,

Be great to see your results - the attachments don't seem to work for me though :(

Out of interest how many times did you do the tying?

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

Hi joseph3007,
I did tying more than 3 times, you can read my previous posts in this tread and see what kind of techniques I used.
Check the links above, it should now be available in better format.
 
Hey, thanks! the pics are awesome and how I'd love to get mine to... think I'm at least 1 or 2 ties away though... I have a bit of a rubbish spare phone which is going on about lack of space so will have a fiddle and put a pic of how I've done so far.

I'm pleased though as a big difference I noticed straight away is when I'm erect the skin (although needs work) has slackened off enough that the head is no longer pulled over :)

Thanks again for the photos - I'll go read your bits here as I think it's worth another read through before I start again on Sunday!
 
joseph3007;730942 said:
Hey, thanks! the pics are awesome and how I'd love to get mine to... think I'm at least 1 or 2 ties away though... I have a bit of a rubbish spare phone which is going on about lack of space so will have a fiddle and put a pic of how I've done so far.

I'm pleased though as a big difference I noticed straight away is when I'm erect the skin (although needs work) has slackened off enough that the head is no longer pulled over :)

Thanks again for the photos - I'll go read your bits here as I think it's worth another read through before I start again on Sunday!
Click to expand...

yes, read again, its important also to use good anaesthesia Better to inject lidocaine under foreskin and glans, then you are protected against pain. I also used electro-scalpel (Single-Use Fine Tip Aaron Electrocautery Pen by Bovie Medical) to get rid of excess skin and modify the scar a bit. It can create amazing effect but to use carefully. 1200 degrees Celsius.
 
Holy Shitsnaps Brahmanion,
That's awesome. Really good result !

I'm off to read your previous threads - I can't believe you laser zapped it as well !
Inspired
 
Ok I did it, got first tie in . Used lidocaine cream from chemist ( cost maybe $15.00 ) and new sewing needle and elastic thread.
Went shallow and right up against glans to get the damn banjo released
Have just spent hours rereading this thread and realised :
1. Soak it and soak it and have patience.
Won't resort to cutting.
2. All my vein questions were answered previously in this thread I realised, so thanks for that.
3. Going to order Magic thread for next tie - oh yeah there's going to be more.
Going to look into using the Brahmanion 2 Tie method- get a lot of bang for your buck !!

Also for what it's worth there are scar healing creams ( Strataderm is one) that are over the counter and have good reviews,
I will us one on my scars and let's see what happens.
Thanks for this thread- so helpful !
 
Hey Southernland - that's awesome, glad it went well :) Keep in touch with it, I'm going to sort my second tie later on - can't wait to get this sorted out!!

Yes, definitely have patience and try to soak in salty water - I only managed once a day but it certainly helped. Oh, will have to get those pics on too.
 
Southernland;731041 said:
Ok I did it, got first tie in . Used lidocaine cream from chemist ( cost maybe $15.00 ) and new sewing needle and elastic thread.
Went shallow and right up against glans to get the damn banjo released
Have just spent hours rereading this thread and realised :
1. Soak it and soak it and have patience.
Won't resort to cutting.
2. All my vein questions were answered previously in this thread I realised, so thanks for that.
3. Going to order Magic thread for next tie - oh yeah there's going to be more.
Going to look into using the Brahmanion 2 Tie method- get a lot of bang for your buck !!

Also for what it's worth there are scar healing creams ( Strataderm is one) that are over the counter and have good reviews,
I will us one on my scars and let's see what happens.
Thanks for this thread- so helpful !
Click to expand...

Hi Southernland,
i would like to comment on the Brahmanion 2 Tie method it works best when you would like to detach frenulum skin from glans. When you want to go further down and bigger portion of skin is tied from both sides, then it creates more scar tissue because 2 parts of skin which cover your shaft around have to get together, therefore forming bigger scar. Usually after 6 month to 1 year the scar is smooth and you dont feel it. To get better cosmetically effect you can remove the scan in aesthetic surgery cabinet with minimal invasion (laser, polishing with local anaesthesia). Also this 2 tie technique may work differently on people as it depends of your healing abilities and skin features. All men have different skin and abilities to heal..
 
Hmm , okay I'll take that on board. After this tie (shallow) I expect frenulum skin to still be attached to glans .
I'll wait til this first one heals and revaluate
Cheers
 
Southernland;731074 said:
Hmm , okay I'll take that on board. After this tie (shallow) I expect frenulum skin to still be attached to glans .
I'll wait til this first one heals and revaluate
Cheers
Click to expand...

it depends how you tie. I usually tied close to the glans to not to have any traces of frenulum on glans. Frenulum skin and glans skin and tissue are 2 different structures. I prefer to clean glans from skin tissue that way it looks very clean and like nothing was before. Glans skin is very tiny and there is sponge flesh inside, therefore, if you remove frenulum tissue completely from glans you will not have any scar tissue formed on your glans. That is why, under your responsibilities of course, I recommend to remove any traces of frenulum tissue by electrocautery device or one-time use one which is quite cheap to buy on ebay if you are in USA. Also take care about the fact that there is invisible transition of glans skin to shaft skin and these are again 2 different structure tissues of your penis with the border called Corona of glans penis. Each of these tissue reacts on damage differently and scarification is different as well. Usually the scars on glans are less visible than penis skin, that is why people have visible scars after circumcisions.
 
Just a quick update in case anyone is following this thread.
My first tie came free this morning on day 6.
Actual thread was still stuck to lower frenulum and I had to soak it to get it free.
This was a shallow tie ( probably 2-3mm) but the amount of freedom it's given me is fantastic.
Sometimes it was a bit discomforting and when it snapped I actually had a twing of pain. But all in all very easygoing- why does the medical profession not support this and make it easier to get done by a doctor?
I still have a reasonable attachment and I'll have a go at this as soon as this wound heals. I'm waiting on some Magic jewellery thread to arrive as the last seeing thread wasn't good enough.
I'll post again when I'm ready to do second tie
 
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