Penis enlargement effort and rest discussion

Hey Tom,

Its awesome to have such a braniac as a member here at MOS.
I understand most of what you say but as a lay person cannot add much to your theory in scientific words.

The penimaster pro glans attachment for extenders is relatively new and there are a number of guys now using it and extending for much longer times with no discomfort or circulation issues.
I have use it for 8 hours per day altho my average is 6 or so during the first month.It uses a partial vacuum to suck the glans into a chamber with a latex diaphram that covers the glans and distributes the traction forces to reduce injury and keep good blood circulation to the glans while extending.
Before this I was using the VLC tugger attachment which gathers the foreskin and traps it with a silicone skin cone.The extender then attaches to the end of the skin cone .
It is more comfortable than the noose or velcro strap methods of attachment but pulls on the penis in a much different way compared to this peni pro method.It pulls the skin and the outer penis tissue and the peni pro pulls the internal penis tissues.

I have tried a few times to wear the vacuum attachment to sleep with my goal being the first 4 hours of the night and remove it when I get up to piss in the middle of the night.
I have not succeeded and have woken up at one hour or one hour and a half on the few attemps.
Your explanation of the drop in blood pressure may be why this happens.

Do you think attaching the device may be more successful for the last 4 hours of sleep rather than the first 4 ??

Since last week I have started wrapping my cock with an electric heating pad while extending and after about 30 minutes what was initially high tension and a maxed out stretch in the extender ,my penis stretches out another 1/2" or more from the constant high heat.

What are your thoughts on the penimaster pro and my suggested use of it in the later stage of sleep and the benefits of using the heating pad while extending?

Also what are your thoughts on the Uncle Jim's wrap as a means to keep the penis in a slightly extended state for times when not in the extender?

thanks for your elaborate breakdown of what we are doing here and your creative ideas on how to improve the process

What if the vacuum was timed, and turns on a few hours after you fall asleep when your blood pressure is safe? The only issue I can think of is if you don't fall asleep very soon after you set the timer.

I think what would be better Neckercube is if the vacuum turns on after a couple of hours into sleep when the blood pressure returns to normal.

Looking at this product:

http://vitallusplus.com/en/

one could effectively do exactly that.This may be my next purchase for Penis Enlargement as a cock pioneer

neckercube;473467 said:

What if the vacuum was timed, and turns on a few hours after you fall asleep when your blood pressure is safe? The only issue I can think of is if you don't fall asleep very soon after you set the timer.

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Dickleaker;473459 said:

Hey Tom,

Its awesome to have such a braniac as a member here at MOS.
I understand most of what you say but as a lay person cannot add much to your theory in scientific words.

Click to expand...

Braniac? **blush** I do have a verified 160 IQ, BUT that is not a good thing in many areas of life contrary to what may be assumed. :D It basically leaves you as an idiot in a lot of "normal" areas of life that many people find very easy. LOL

No need to use scientific words to enter this discussion of a PMS! I wish everyone would jump in on this subject of a PMS, as every person is unique and can perhaps fill in missing pieces of the puzzle that would never occur to me otherwise in a million years. In particular, I am honored to have you enter the fray. :D Your "join date" belies the seemingly vast knowledge that you often share throughout the forums. You seem to have a great deal of knowledge and experience that would indicate much more time spent in the Penis Enlargement community. Well, from the posts that I have seen you offer through the forums anyway. So yes, anything that fires up your neurons about a PMS would be greatly appreciated.

Dickleaker;473459 said:

The penimaster pro glans attachment for extenders is relatively new and there are a number of guys now using it and extending for much longer times with no discomfort or circulation issues.
I have use it for 8 hours per day altho my average is 6 or so during the first month.It uses a partial vacuum to suck the glans into a chamber with a latex diaphram that covers the glans and distributes the traction forces to reduce injury and keep good blood circulation to the glans while extending.
Before this I was using the VLC tugger attachment which gathers the foreskin and traps it with a silicone skin cone.The extender then attaches to the end of the skin cone .
It is more comfortable than the noose or velcro strap methods of atacHydromaxent but pulls on the penis in a much different way compared to this peni pro method.It pulls the skin and the outer penis tissue and the peni pro pulls the internal penis tissues.

Click to expand...

Yes, the hybrid attachment. (In that it uses vacuum as the attachment system to a traction system) Ingenious and clearly superior to the constriction attachments, because of its larger surface area to disperse force and even distribution of force about that area. Though it is superior, I still wonder about the vacuum placed upon the urethra and "connected plumbing" internally. This might not be a huge deal, I have to do further research into the possible dangers or deleterious effects, of the partial vacuum placed on the penis internally. Looking at what a partial vacuum does from an internal standpoint versus what it does from an external standpoint are complete opposites. Think of it this way, a partial vacuum upon the urethra spreads continuously and evenly into everything that is connected "plumbing wise" :D It should be clear that this application or placement of a vacuum has a constricting or collapsing force on the internal network. I realize that there is no immediate danger as the urethra is subjected to this vacuum by anyone that uses such things as the Bathmate regularly. But a PMS would need to eventually keep that vacuum in place continuously, that is where a problem might develop that I don't think anyone who "pumps" has experienced yet. This may be all moot if I find that there is a certain natural resistance of the internal structure which is greater than any vacuum level that we would be applying continuously. I just have this dread, because of my current ignorance in this area that someone could wake up with their urethral tube collapsed, and I don't even know at this point if that would even be dangerous. Basically, it is just an issue I have out of ignorance in the matter.

Overall, the device you mention is something that I currently believe is superior to any of the other attachment system currently in use. All things being equal, I would be more comfortable if they allowed an opening near the urethra just to be safe in this regard. Since it is an opening into the internal structure of the penis, you would not lose much, if any depending on how accurately they could remove that small surface area, dispersion of force applied to the penis. But thanks for mentioning it in this thread, as I believe it could be a very good thing to be incorporated is a supposed device to implement a PMS.

Dickleaker;473459 said:

I have tried a few times to wear the vacuum attachment to sleep with my goal being the first 4 hours of the night and remove it when I get up to piss in the middle of the night.
I have not succeeded and have woken up at one hour or one hour and a half on the few attemps.
Your explanation of the drop in blood pressure may be why this happens.

Do you think attaching the device may be more successful for the last 4 hours of sleep rather than the first 4 ??

Click to expand...

Did you wake up from "pain", "numbness", or simply "fright"? (Fright meaning simply an unfamiliar feeling) The waking up after only an hour or two indicates that whatever was happening was occurring during the gradual pressure drop induced by sleep. As I pointed out earlier, the lowest blood pressures are usually reached at about two hours after falling asleep. So your body essentially wouldn't let you stay in that thing at that level of vacuum all the way to the lowest blood pressure period. Which is good, it probably stopped you from injuring yourself in some way :D

What I do not know about this device is how you control or measure the level of vacuum. Is this possible with that thing? In relative terms, I would think that to get safely pass that period of time when your blood pressure was at its lowest (roughly the two hour mark) you would have to reduce your normal, (awake and alert), tolerable vacuum level by roughly 30% or so to get "over the hump" before you went to sleep in the first place.

Obviously, lowering the vacuum pressure, would also lower the amount of "traction" that you would be applying, but the fundamental with a PMS is that time under traction (ideally constant force) is magnitudes of order more important than traction force itself. And if one manages to stay under a lower force constantly, or perpetually :D, which would include time spent sleeping, I am contending that far, far, far, more cells could be induced into the mitosis phase over time than can be achieved with intermittent sessions of higher intensity. (Again, look at geometric series and sums, and keep in mind that new "parents" are always appearing at the Gzero phase "waiting" to be pushed into the mitosis phase or S phase of the cell cycle.)

Not directed at you, but anyone following along and going "horse puckey" to the fundamental tenet of a PMS being the most efficient possible way to maximize gains, which is just an increasing number of cells over time (and hopefully mutated cell structure too :D). I know that this whole discussion will be met with harsh, even if not outward, skepticism and disdain by those who adore the inherent inefficiency of high-intensity intermittent forces commingled with vast periods of times that produce absolutely nothing it terms of gains because there is no longer any force to keep pushing new parents out of the Gzero phase.

As a common sense thought experiment, to keep it real simple. Imagine that one of the people who stretches their lips out with discs approached their goal the way that traditional Penis Enlargement is practiced. Really think about it. Because what they are doing and do is almost identical to what we are doing in Penis Enlargement in every way. They are simply exerting a force upon the tissue to cause or trigger mitosis. There is no "exercise" in real terms with Penis Enlargement or those people doing their lip modification. We are not "exercising" anything. (except for the pelvic floor muscles :D) Any significant amount of "growth" that takes place is really just an increase in the number of cells and not actual growth of cells themselves. It is a matter of an increasing number of cells and not a growth of the individual cells themselves. Otherwise we would be using hypertrophy like body builders do to make the muscles bigger, but we are not working with muscles here, but rather tissues, fibers, and ligaments composed of cells. That is why we use mitosis of cells to "grow" instead. (even if we don't use those words...we say "stretch", "engorge", etc...but we are just triggering mitosis of parent cells by creating the separation trigger for mitosis to begin)

Anyway, back to the analogy. Imagine that these lip stretchers tried to wear the biggest disk possible at any given time in their lip. What would they feel? It would hurt like a motherfu**er and they would be lucky to keep it in place for an hour at a time. And they would probably be so sore from such forces being applied that they would reluctantly maybe put it back in for another hour or two here and there. They definitely would not wear it to sleep. And anyone of them who was even a little bit shy of pain would be lucky to apply one good session a day. How long do you think it would take to accumulate enough mitosis of cells to produce those huge lips that they so proudly display? Remember right off the top, that they do not wear these things in their sleep because it is too painful, so for a full one-third of their entire life spent towards this goal is simply wasted. I will bet you dollars to donuts that the growth rate would be so slow and painful that most would abandon the pursuit altogether before they saw any significant gains.

But, giving them extreme props :D, they are not stupid! LOL They do not try to shove in large disks or go super high "intensity" like we often foolishly and inefficiently do in the Penis Enlargement world. They simply start with disks small enough, read apply less force, that they can keep in place at all times, read constant force. They only place a larger disk, read increase intensity, in the lip when it can easily be worn at all times, read constant force. The result. They achieve remarkably mutated lips in a relatively short period of time. Some of those ridiculously large discs, really plates, are achieved in as little as a year of gradually increasing the plate diameter. Most of the people that you see with them still in place simply only wear them after that short time period of growth as a display of the plate, rather than it being an ongoing process to get larger. But this staggering and rapid "growth" of these people's lips is achieved only because of the application of a constant force that is tolerable at all times, not because they let a truck pull on it for an hour at a time. :D They start out with a tiny peg placed in a hole. And over time only increase the size, read intensity, when it is tolerable to do so at all times. This is their secret, one that I believe that the Penis Enlargement community needs to embrace at some point, if it is to evolve into a highly efficient and productive part of medical science in the future. I think that if this process and technique of applying a PMS is defined, we may one day see "gains" that would have taken the Great Pioneers and Leaders within the Penis Enlargement community, such as Mike, years and years to experience through extensive and admirable determination and effort over that timespan, future noobs to the Brotherhood could have those same gains in a fraction of the time and with far less intensity ever being necessary. That is my dream for all of those who will come to join in the Community of the future, and that is the aim of this serious discussion of a possible way to push Penis Enlargement along to a new evolutionary step.

Just as a side note :D SRT is brilliant, and a milestone, within the Penis Enlargement community. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the things put forth within it by Daddy. I see its underlying principles as LAW and completely backed by every scientific paper that I have come across so far. While "my" PMS is filled with different words, and may look at it from a slightly different perspective, with perhaps, and I do not wish to offend in anyway, a clearer explanation of WHY SRT would work. If anyone does not like that, perhaps I could offer that a PMS is just looking to maximize the efficiency of SRT. :D Love you all, please don't be offended. This whole discussion and theory is about helping my fellow man.

As to what four hours of sleep are better to be applying force, the first or the last. Well, the four hours that you can maintain constantly will be the best four hours. :D From what you said, it sounds like you are using too much force to get through the first four hours due to the drop in blood pressure. So the latter four would probably be better for you to experiment with. After the low point in blood pressure about two hours into sleep the next six are spent climbing back to normal rest pressure that you would have during the day. So relatively speaking, you will have an average pressure much higher during the second four hours. Again, I would recommend that you find the intensity that you can withstand constantly during the day, drop that intensity or force by roughly 30% and see how that works out for you. I am leaning to the idea that if we match a "waking" level of constant tolerable force with a force 70% of that, that that level would be sustainable during sleep. Obviously, you would be smart to test this slowly. But I have no doubt that you have common sense. See if you can stand this reduced force for two hours straight first. And then progressively try to extend this period of time over the span of several days or weeks to find what you will eventually be able to withstand without any damage through the entire night.

An even wiser approach, would be to use FAR less force at first, maybe even what you would consider a "useless" amount that you are sure that you could withstand. And then slowly increase it over progressive nights until you realize that the force is becoming "noticeable". There will be a sweet spot in there somewhere. Again, the whole premise is that you will instigate a lot more mitosis by staying under a constant force. We want to destroy the illusion that intensity is somehow a key to growth. It is, but it is a tiny key, that only gets you into the door that leads to the room of growth. The vault filled with treasure within that room is opened with a different key. The big golden key, the one made of time. :D

Dickleaker;473459 said:

Since last week I have started wrapping my cock with an electric heating pad while extending and after aboiut 30 minutes what was initially high tension and a maxed oot stretch in the extender ,my penis stretches out another 1/2" or more from the constant high heat.

What are your thoughts on the penimaster pro and my suggested use of it in the later stage of sleep and the benefits of using the heating pad while extending?

Also what are your thoughts on the Uncle Jim's wrap as a means to keep the penis in a slightly extended state for times when not in the extender?

thanks for your elaborate breakdown of what we are doing here and your creative ideas on how to improve the process

Click to expand...

Heat is bar far the easiest way to increase efficiency in regards to the effort used in doing Penis Enlargement no matter in what form. The entire penile structure is dominated by collagen of different types. The tensile strength of the collagen triple helixes has a direct inverse quadratic relationship with temperature. Simply put, an increase in temperature of the collagen within the penis exponentially decreases the tensile strength of those helix structures internally and to other adjacent helixes. An easy approximation to bear in mind, is that the tensile strength of the collagen fibers is decreased by half that which is normal (near body temperature) at a temperature of about 105F (40.5C). The implications of which are that you can cause the same "separation" among the cells with half the force needed at normal temperatures. Or if you prefer, you could cause as much as double the separation among cells with the same level of force. Notice I am talking about at the cellular level and not the macro level. No people, you will not be able to suddenly stretch your penis like sixteen inches in the hot tub at the club. :D LOL Plus heat also has the other benefits going for it too, like increased blood flow. increased moisture (if from a good source of heat which produce humidity), etc.

By the way, yes, I have been experimenting already myself with maximum tolerable level of heat while doing Penis Enlargement. And without a doubt high heat is better than regular heat, just as regular heat is better than no heat. :D What I personally noted with high heat in stretching is that not that much time is necessary for the heat to have significant impact on the elasticity of the collage. I can stretch under high heat, keep the tension constant, let that stretch "bake" in the high heat for a minute, and I can easily stretch a significant amount more after the "bake period", bake some more, stretch some more. Maybe a minute stretch, bake a minute, stretch some more, bake, repeat. I am pretty good about no cutting off my circulation with stretches so far, knock on wood, and that is what I have experienced. I only pushed it to the limit about a week ago, "hurt" myself is some way being stupid. You can find the tale in the forums if you are curious. Basically, I took more advantage of the effects of high heat than I should have if I wasn't so stupid and eager to push the issue. Again, high heat, as much as you can tolerate, without going over 110F which could cause severe burns after about ten minutes, is perhaps the holy grail of pushing the limits of how far we can weaken the collagen without chemicals. (I really would recommend staying around 105F as this can be tolerated by most people indefinitely without causing burns or major discomfort)

As to the Uncle Jim's Wrap. I think it is a great idea. Sadly, I personally have not figured out how to implement it correctly for me. I always lose circulation far too quickly while wrapped sufficiently tight enough to keep me "extended". But that is probably something peculiar to my individual penis. In theory, I love it. Just as I love the theory of the traction devices in general. I just don't like the limits placed on the circulation system. To be honest, from what I have learned trying to figure out this whole PMS theory, I think that those people who can really stay wrapped 24/7 in an extended state would have more gains long term than they would using the fancy extenders that they can only wear for an hour or two at a time. That really is probably the biggest difference, and best illustration of such, between a PMS and traditional Penis Enlargement in general. That that tiny force of a wrap which could be maintained continuously would be more effective and efficient than the intense force of a traction device used intermittently in the long-run. (And the few medical studies that have been done so far on the traction devices indicate as much.) Not to mention that in the fields of cosmetic surgery it is conclusively shown that they "grow" more skin tissue (also made up of collagen :D) under constant force than anyone has even come anywhere close to demonstrating in the Penis Enlargement world with intermittent forces.

But using a wrap to supplement extender use...Hell Yeah! Anything that you can do to keep some force or traction going for as much time as possible. That is what a PMS is!!! LOL If you aren't in the extender, and you aren't in the wrap, you aren't pushing any parent cells into the mitosis phase, and you aren't doing anything to "grow" during that time :D

ok my idea to apply the theory on how I understood it + some questions as Im not sure.

So gzero phase where parents are created is triggered by force.
Then it takes two hours to create daughter cells mitosis(s phase)
These daughter cells replicate the state the parents are during the time the daughter cells are created(2 hours).
Then the rest of the cell cycle takes roughly 24 hours until new parents are established.
What to do during this phase? Still the same force?

Would it make sense to do after the first s phase(daughter mitosis 2 hours) another exercise that targets different cells or the same cells in a different way? Like doing 2 hours length and then 2 hours girth.
Repeat the same exercise only once every 24 hours while increasing the force from day to day?

Or just as much time under force as possible while slowly increasing the force from day to day? like the african tribe elongating lips.

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

ok my idea to apply the theory on how I understood it + some questions as Im not sure.

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Great! I am honored that you are taking time to look at the PMS theory. Any and all help in this search is greatly appreciated! (from the bottom of my heart)
Please take everything as follows as simply my clarification of what I believe you are trying to say. An exchange of ideas. :D

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

So gzero phase where parents are created is triggered by force.

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Parents are not created at gzero. That phase begins when a "daughter" cell has finished its growth cycle and is not a complete replica of its parent. It is a daugher that has finished its daughter phase, if you will. It is now a fully developed parent. This parent, and the gzero phase will remain constant until the parent cell is induced or triggered into entering the S phase, or mitosis stage. Basically the gzero phase is not a set period of time. The parent will lie dormant until it is triggered into mitosis, think of it as a very wide or narrow starting line of the complete cell cycle, as if nothing before ever occurred for that cell. Gzero is not really an "active" phase at all, the cell growth is complete, there is nothing done there but "waiting" for stimulus to start a new cell cycle. Nothing happens here. It is the ultimate in inefficiency in a "program of growth" such as Penis Enlargement.

The "trigger" for anything to happen, which means to get the cell out of the gzero phase is when the cell cycle essentially begins doing anything. The "trigger" in the case of Penis Enlargement, or applying artificial force to the structure of the penis, and thus the "waiting" parents, is to cause a growing separation between adjacent parents. In Penis Enlargement we are using a particular form of inducing mitosis which forces the parent out of "sitting around and doing nothing" in the gzero phase. That particular "trigger" is, again, increasing the separation between adjacent parent cells. It is this increased separation which is the "trigger".

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

Then it takes two hours to create daughter cells mitosis(s phase)

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After the "trigger" is initiated, correct. The parent cell spends approximately two hours to "divide itself", which is really just an encoded stage, in half creating two identical daughters.

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

These daughter cells replicate the state the parents are during the time the daughter cells are created(2 hours).

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Correct. However, it is important to stress the "splitting" process, mitosis phase, is a period of continuous encoding. Meaning it does matter what "state" or "form" the parent takes at any specific moment during this process, but rather the state of the parent during the entire two hour process. This is an important point that cannot be stressed too much. (Not directing this specifically at you, but at anyone playing along at home as well :D) To "trigger" the parent into mitosis and then to remove that force which caused the greater separation and "mutation" of the parent will not produce a superior daughter cell, thus superior future parent cells, but rather the same old unstressed, undeformed parents. Now this will not be a significant source of macro level "growth" overall in time, but creating a pair of identical unstressed parents for the future in the same area, simply leads to unnecessary increase of density throughout the growth process long-term. Which is one component which makes Vets such hard gainers over time and requires too much additional force to be added too quickly just to keep these cycles going in the future.

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

Then the rest of the cell cycle takes roughly 24 hours until new parents are established.

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Correct. Unless some significant deficiency in the necessary supply of chemicals/nutrients needed for the daughters to grow is present, otherwise the rest of the cycle, the daughters growth cycle, can be lengthened significantly. It is just a good idea to remember that the "new daughters" that emerge at the end of the mitosis cycle or phase, are slightly less than half of the size and volume of the original parent cell. So they will need to roughly double in size during their growth phase until they too are fully developed parents arriving at the gzero "waiting room" :D

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

What to do during this phase? Still the same force?

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What to do during this phase? What we are doing is supplying a constant force to keep triggering mitosis so that whenever a new parent arrives at gzero it is immediately thrust into mitosis. Hence Penis EnlargementRPenis EnlargementTUAL MITOSIS. (I know, it is a little bit of a play on words, and can easily be misinterpreted.) We are not causing a SINGLE cell to be in perpetual mitosis, that is impossible, and would not help us at all even if we could. (It would actually mean ZERO growth, as daughter would never grow up to be parents. LOL) Again, WE just keep applying a constant force to induce as man NEW PARENTS into mitosis as possible.

Same force? Absolutely...it is constant...no need to make adjustments. (At least short term, basically the entire structure will undergo a great deal of change before an increasing force is necessary) Essentially, no increase in intensity is really needed until the force that we apply is working upon a significantly greater number of cells packed more densely, providing greater tensile strength overall, and thus resistance that negates the force we are using currently. Then a SLIGHT increase of intensity will be necessary to keep this treadmill of new parents, producing new daughters, growing into twice as many parents running smoothly. But definitely after the system is running efficiently, it will be a VERY slow and gradual increase of intensity that will be needed. It will be imperceptible in short term time periods.

I think that the confusion is in nuance. It must be clear to anyone following all of this that we are not dealing with a single cell at a single point in time. There will, at all times, be new mature parents entering gzero just waiting to be "shoved" into mitosis. We can induce a parent into mitosis, but at the very next moment, a newly mature parent is there waiting to be triggered. And the next moment. And the next moment. Just keep in mind that at ANY time that the force that we apply stops, the "waiting parents" start arriving in droves and building up at the useless "waiting room", and all of that potential "growth", actually a doubling of the number of those parents, is put off until a force is applied later. During any time that we are not applying a force, we could have been growing.

I am having trouble relating a good analogy myself to explain this perhaps. Just because we have shoved any number of parents into the mitosis phase at one moment does not mean we will be getting ANYWHERE near the actual growth potential available in this overall process on the grand scale. Because a moment later, there can be just as many parents just sitting around doing nothing because we stopped applying the force. Essentially, that is the dismal failure and inefficiency that keeps traditional Penis Enlargement at a slow painful crawl instead of a miraculous efficient and rapid growth cycle on the macro scale.

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

Would it make sense to do after the first s phase(daughter mitosis 2 hours) another exercise that targets different cells or the same cells in a different way? Like doing 2 hours length and then 2 hours girth.

Click to expand...

We are not dealing with single cells at single points in time. I know that it is conceptually a little difficult. We are not pushing a single group of parent cells into mitosis and then waiting around for those cells to go through their mitosis process. As soon as we shove one group of parents off, there is instantly another group of new parents wainting to be shoved off too. There is no point in the entire cell cycle that we are fixated upon, except if it helps to understand, that there is always "new parents" arriving at the "waiting room" at the gzero phase. So our only real focus should be on constantly pushing "new parents" into mitosis. The rest of the cell cycle will run its course no matter what we do. Our job in maximizing the efficiency of "growth", the sum of all cells ever increasing, is to constantly be pushing parents into mitosis at all times. If we do that, everything else takes care of itself pretty much. These cells do not get lost in the cell cycle, our only real responsibility is to be the artificial trigger that keeps the converyor belt moving at all times. This is achieved by applying constant force at all time. A PMS. :D

dickerschwanz;473573 said:

Repeat the same exercise only once every 24 hours while increasing the force from day to day?

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Repeat the same "exercise" an infinite number of times every twenty-four hours. Constant force. The only increase in force ever, is only applied when that force no longer shoves new parents into mitosis. How much, and how fast to increase this force? I will say that if you are looking at it in terms of days, it will be imperceptible, unless you were using very sensitive equipment. :D Hell once we knew what the "equilibrium" force was, the increased volume and thus mass of the penis structure would supply sufficient increase in "intensity" to probably keep the conveyor belt running smoothly for a long time if you were looking at it in terms of days. In real terms, increases of intensity of the constant force would be quite small even in terms of months. Sure we can "spike" intensity for short periods, but we would still have to drop from that spike before we entered a sleep period.

Remember if a PMS is established, high intensity periods, beyond that constant applicable/tolerable force that we can endure for an entire twenty four hour period, and thus perpetually, would be so significantly superior in efficiency and rapid growth, that even wanting to have high-intensity spurts would seem very unnecessary.

I will state again. Look at how a geometric sequence, and its sum, grow in mind-boggling leaps and bounds the longer that such a series continues. Once we initiate and maintain such a sequence, with cells instead of numbers, the "growth" that we will see will be beyond anything that conventional Penis Enlargement could ever achieve with its intermittent forces no matter how strenuously and exotically applied. If you were well into such a significant macro-level growth cycle you would find absolutely no desire or need to push it along any faster. Seriously.

And though I have insufficient reading at this point to say for certainty, it is a very reasonable assumption, that once a Perpetual Mitosis System is up and running smoothly in your system, there shouldn't be a large grouping of parents available at the gzero phase that would require a larger force to be used. You would essentially be applying more force to push off the same number of cells into mitosis. A complete and utter waste of effort. Why "lift" with fifty pounds of effort if there are only twenty pounds available to be lifted? It wouldn't make sense. Furthermore, with the conveyor belt running at maximum efficiency, using all available resources at hand, all the chemicals/nutrients available to you, what good would it be to throw a greater number of cells onto that conveyor belt if they were going to simply starve to death or slow down the conveyor belt down?

We are creating an every increasing, at an exponential rate, number of cells. But there is only a finite amount of chemicals/nutrients that we will ever have in our system at any one time. Exceeding this supply will do us absolutely no good at all, and in reality will SLOW the growth in the number of cells as it will start to make the entire cell cycle after the mitosis phase take longer and longer the further and further we go above the rate of incoming chemicals/nutrients. Eventually, you would return to the dismal, glaciatic :D, speed of conventional Penis Enlargement growth again, and then even worse.

Your unit would become a super dense packed structure full of a bunch of "static" daughters unable to grow and cause you to really need "rest". No new cells would be being created. A halt. A stop. The exact opposite of everything this whole thing is about. And where we all in Penis Enlargement spend over 90% of our time. Looking at our penis wondering how fast it will grow while not applying a force.

Well if you are not applying a force right now, you are not forcing parents into mitosis, you are not increasing the number of cells, and you are not growing. Penis EnlargementRIOD! How many seconds of the day are we applying force versus how many seconds are we not. We are either increasing our cell count at this moment or we are not. (and I am not LOL because I am typing this!) We are either causing "growth" right now, or we are wasting the potential moment for "growth". That is another way to look at a PMS too. :D

Sorry, anything said above is to solidify what I believe has to be understood, and in no way is meant to do anything other than to increase understanding of what I personally am trying to say. I am not an orator, or a master of speech. However, I am passionate in this belief, and I think that it can maybe be the most significant advance that our Brotherhood could ever undertake if we find a way to utilize and apply its central idea.

Maybe I will start by hanging one gram from my penis, I should be able to apply that for twenty four hours straight right? LOL I really have to embark upon this myself, otherwise I will simply be the ranting lunatic. LOL

The Lunatic,

Tom

dickerschwanz;473579 said:

Or just as much time under force as possible while slowly increasing the force from day to day? like the african tribe elongating lips.

Click to expand...

That is closer to a PMS than anything you will find in traditional Penis Enlargement....YES!

What we do in Penis Enlargement is more like as if one of those tribe people tried to jam an 8" plate in immediately after having a 4" plate in. It is too strenuous, too painful, to be endured for any significant amount of time, no where even close to constant. It would be like wearing a plate for a couple hours a day. If they did that it would take them a lifetime to be able to grow their lips to the size that some of them do in just a year or two. But we are new, relatively speaking, in the realm of body manipulation, so our ignorance can be forgiven. :D

Dude you should be blushing about this info because it is great stuff...it is by far the most informative I have read regarding Penis Enlargement since I started.You have inspired me to start an experiment.
Please read and add any comments you may find helpful.

I may have found the key to go 24 hours in a safe extended state with the help of you and combining several
devices into one.
I have given you a rep point for my gratitude! I would give you more but thats the limit at one time!

here's my post :

Supra,
They are going insanely great with this thing!!!

Please do yourself a favour and anybody else who is deeply interested in Penis Enlargement and read Irspow's posts.He is providing the very best info I have yet read on Penis Enlargement and the theory of why and how to grow our cocks in the MOST EFFICIENT way.

His scientific explanation is long but be patient with yourself and read it...it totally backs and supports what DLD has said about SRT theory.

So ,inspired by his posts I extended yesterday for 16 hours and will hit that today as well using a DIY mod to the elastic strap and clip provided by TLC tugger.com and a wire I made to fit around the peni pro glans chamber at the end.

My flaccid dick was between 6 1/2 and 7" all day.
This would be low tension but for as many hours of the 24 in a day possible.

The SRT theory and Irspow's explanation of keeping your penis in the extended state for as long as possible ENSURES that the new clone cells reproduced from the stress given to the penis will copy the PARENT cells of the penis in the extended state rather than copying the PARENT cells in their normal state say when you are taking a break or at work ,etc. not in the extender.

Also what may have been hindering my gains is that I have been wearing the VLC tugger and skin cone for every hour of the day and night when I am not in the extender and peni pro.Because it pushes in my penis and pulls up the foreskin then I believe the clone cells being made are getting their DNA coding from my PARENT penis cells in their normal state rather than the extended state.
Very exciting time for me and i will keep posting here with my feedback but Irspow and DLD are definitely on the next level with this SRT theory ...let's see how it plays out for me !!!


Originally Posted by Supra
Dick how have things been going? Are you liking the extender head attachment?

irspow;473595 said:

That is closer to a PMS than anything you will find in traditional Penis Enlargement....YES!

What we do in Penis Enlargement is more like as if one of those tribe people tried to jam an 8" plate in immediately after having a 4" plate in. It is too strenuous, too painful, to be endured for any significant amount of time, no where even close to constant. It would be like wearing a plate for a couple hours a day. If they did that it would take them a lifetime to be able to grow their lips to the size that some of them do in just a year or two. But we are new, relatively speaking, in the realm of body manipulation, so our ignorance can be forgiven. :D

Click to expand...

You think the VLC isn't stretching the entire penis as much? I can agree moderately, as it's not getting the same tug as a noose or strap but regardless there is still that tension and if being maintain, progress is still be achieved?

Dickleaker;473601 said:

Also what may have been hindering my gains is that I have been wearing the VLC tugger and skin cone for every hour of the day and night when I am not in the extender and peni pro.Because it pushes in my penis and pulls up the foreskin then I believe the clone cells being made are getting their DNA coding from my PARENT penis cells in their normal state rather than the extended state.
Very exciting time for me and i will keep posting here with my feedback but Irspow and DLD are definitely on the next level with this SRT theory ...let's see how it plays out for me !!!


Originally Posted by Supra
Dick how have things been going? Are you liking the extender head attachment?

Click to expand...

Leaker,

Thank you for reading and sharing. I but stand upon the shoulders of those bearing the weight, those who have done the research, the Daddy's of the world, those doctors who still have the courage to do something that wasn't "approved" curriculum while they were indoctrinated. I just gaze at their wonderful ideas, their experimentation, their pioneering, and let it swirl around in my synaptic soup. It takes a slightly different "form", and I spit out that image which appears from my looking at it from my perspective. That is all that "new" ideas are....old ideas looked at from different perspectives.

All things have always been know to the collective consciousness, but "we", in the delusion and shadow of isolation, are both blinded by and in a unique position of clarity at the same time. We are blind because we cannot see our completeness from our false finite perspective. But we have a greater clarity of minute details that cannot be seen from an infinite field of view. So we are both blessed and cursed simultaneously.

Thank you again Sir. With people like you and those in our wonderful Brotherhood, we can get to the pinnacle that we all deserve in this journey of growth for our penises, yes, but more importantly for ourselves as tiny slices of the Everything. :D

With all of the great people in the Brotherhood, we can, we will, crack this nut WIIIIDE OPenis EnlargementN!!! :D

I somehow think that length exercise during sleep through traction is not so wise as maybe a light girth exercise(constriction)
The reason is that with a traction device its hard to get any erections that dont hurt or makes one wake up. The vitallus plus is maybe a solution but I hate the price for the replacement stuff that you will need once you grow. No way im buying that.

I applied some light constriction wrap at my base for the sleep.
I checked before sleep if it is strict enough to hold on through an erection and is able to provide circulation.
I slept without break and had a nice full flaccid in the morning.
Tough Im not sure if the additional engorgement during sleep, that was different to the stretch during day(extender), influenced the same cells. But I tested before sleep that my erection is 0,2 inches bigger with the constriction which may indicate that the cells that I targeted during day are worked there too. Well, better then doing nothing during sleep ..

What I also thought is a viable options is to pump before sleep. this engorges the flaccid dick also into enegorged state during night where no major retraction/shrinkage can happen.

irspow;473589 said:

Remember if a PMS is established, high intensity periods, beyond that constant applicable/tolerable force that we can endure for an entire twenty four hour period, and thus perpetually, would be so significantly superior in efficiency and rapid growth, that even wanting to have high-intensity spurts would seem very unnecessary.

I will state again. Look at how a geometric sequence, and its sum, grow in mind-boggling leaps and bounds the longer that such a series continues. Once we initiate and maintain such a sequence, with cells instead of numbers, the "growth" that we will see will be beyond anything that conventional Penis Enlargement could ever achieve with its intermittent forces no matter how strenuously and exotically applied. If you were well into such a significant macro-level growth cycle you would find absolutely no desire or need to push it along any faster. Seriously.

And though I have insufficient reading at this point to say for certainty, it is a very reasonable assumption, that once a Perpetual Mitosis System is up and running smoothly in your system, there shouldn't be a large grouping of parents available at the gzero phase that would require a larger force to be used. You would essentially be applying more force to push off the same number of cells into mitosis. A complete and utter waste of effort. Why "lift" with fifty pounds of effort if there are only twenty pounds available to be lifted? It wouldn't make sense. Furthermore, with the conveyor belt running at maximum efficiency, using all available resources at hand, all the chemicals/nutrients available to you, what good would it be to throw a greater number of cells onto that conveyor belt if they were going to simply starve to death or slow down the conveyor belt down?

We are creating an every increasing, at an exponential rate, number of cells. But there is only a finite amount of chemicals/nutrients that we will ever have in our system at any one time. Exceeding this supply will do us absolutely no good at all, and in reality will SLOW the growth in the number of cells as it will start to make the entire cell cycle after the mitosis phase take longer and longer the further and further we go above the rate of incoming chemicals/nutrients. Eventually, you would return to the dismal, glaciatic :D, speed of conventional Penis Enlargement growth again, and then even worse.

Your unit would become a super dense packed structure full of a bunch of "static" daughters unable to grow and cause you to really need "rest". No new cells would be being created. A halt. A stop. The exact opposite of everything this whole thing is about. And where we all in Penis Enlargement spend over 90% of our time. Looking at our penis wondering how fast it will grow while not applying a force.

Well if you are not applying a force right now, you are not forcing parents into mitosis, you are not increasing the number of cells, and you are not growing. Penis EnlargementRIOD! How many seconds of the day are we applying force versus how many seconds are we not. We are either increasing our cell count at this moment or we are not. (and I am not LOL because I am typing this!) We are either causing "growth" right now, or we are wasting the potential moment for "growth". That is another way to look at a PMS too. :D

Sorry, anything said above is to solidify what I believe has to be understood, and in no way is meant to do anything other than to increase understanding of what I personally am trying to say. I am not an orator, or a master of speech. However, I am passionate in this belief, and I think that it can maybe be the most significant advance that our Brotherhood could ever undertake if we find a way to utilize and apply its central idea.

Maybe I will start by hanging one gram from my penis, I should be able to apply that for twenty four hours straight right? LOL I really have to embark upon this myself, otherwise I will simply be the ranting lunatic. LOL

The Lunatic,

Tom

Click to expand...

Hydromax. but when is the moment the cells decide what type of collagen they form? during the 2 hour phase after force induction or during the 24 hour growth cycle? sorry if I missed that if already stated but I try to catch on
Im just thinking that an initial bigger force may push more cells into the daughter phase(I dont know but sounds logic lol). and then we work with this daughter cells for 2 hours and then again a short bigger/more intense force and thena gain 2hours constant force and that for the whole day.
a bit like dlds workout here :http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?58964-Gain-1-inch-in-12-Weeks-Total-SizeGenetics-Bathmate-Workout
ffirst some manual stretches that are more intense like the sg and after that the sg to stabilish them. Interestingly dld chooses 2 hours sg after the manual workout. Its in his blood how to grow without any need for explanation ^^

Also some guy in a german pe forum wore a cockring for like 4 months without putting it off(he couldnt lol) and he gained over an inch in length and 0.64 inches in diameter(horizontal not around).
sure there is easier ways but It somehow proves this theory. Obviously it was the same force that only slightly increased when the dick grew.

Four months? How does that even work?

neckercube;473661 said:

Four months? How does that even work?

Click to expand...

man sounds crazy but he actualy posted pics and he had to remove it after he eventually got skin problems. but it seemed he never got problems with the dick itself.

Whatever. Its just one of many succesfull gainer storys where one has applied a force as constant as possible.
For sure constant force is the most important factor in Penis Enlargement. There is only need for rest when the penis is not functional anymore e.g really bad EQ.
To hold the Penis functional its necessary to use the least amount of force that is needed to grow. Growing means for me that I can measure growth at least every month.(in my case at least 0.05 - 0.1 inches)
Then no decondition breaks are needed to grow more and the chance for injury is minimalized.

I swear this is the most worded thread and it's only on page 2! :S

dickerschwanz;473652 said:

I somehow think that length exercise during sleep through traction is not so wise as maybe a light girth exercise(constriction)
The reason is that with a traction device its hard to get any erections that dont hurt or makes one wake up. The vitallus plus is maybe a solution but I hate the price for the replacement stuff that you will need once you grow. No way im buying that.

I applied some light constriction wrap at my base for the sleep.
I checked before sleep if it is strict enough to hold on through an erection and is able to provide circulation.
I slept without break and had a nice full flaccid in the morning.
Tough Im not sure if the additional engorgement during sleep, that was different to the stretch during day(extender), influenced the same cells. But I tested before sleep that my erection is 0,2 inches bigger with the constriction which may indicate that the cells that I targeted during day are worked there too. Well, better then doing nothing during sleep ..

What I also thought is a viable options is to pump before sleep. this engorges the flaccid dick also into enegorged state during night where no major retraction/shrinkage can happen.

Click to expand...

A couple good points that you make. One, is that during when a traction force is applied (at the macro level) to "stretch" the dick, the "girth" is reduced while that force is being applied. This will reduce blood flow within the penis while in this stretched state. Now this does will not change the volume of blood that is present at any one time, but it does change the velocity of that volume. This is because at that period of time, the blood pressure is not different. The implications of this is that you will be getting less "fresh" blood into the penis over a specific period of time. As our blood pressure drops during sleep anyway, this velocity of "fresh" blood will diminish in kind as well. So everything else being equal, "tension" applied to the cells through engorgement by means of a partial vacuum would be superior to an "extender", if both methods presented a significant level of "expansion". This is only because a partial vacuum presents less resistance to the expansion of the "outer shell :D" of the penis. Obviously the "vacuum" itself never reaches any inner tissues directly. Unless we start drilling holes all over our penises :D

But a partial vacuum does promote increased "fresh" blood to and from the penile structure. Long-run, partial vacuum, will be the ultimate solution to maximizing gains as far as "devices" go, along with heat, once the current tech is tweaked enough for a PMS. The biggest present-day "problem" with vacuum are that users apply the vacuum with too much intensity to be sustained for any length of time. Ironically, their desire to see their penis double in size in the tube for twenty minutes :D, will make their realization of ever seeing that size outside of a vacuum move off further and further into the future. While if they could make their penis expand maybe only 25% in the tube at a much lower negative pressure so that they could actually stay in the thing, they would realize that "double dick" far faster. Me personally, I think that there is too much made of the difference between what "stretching" and "pumping" do in terms of growth.

In general, macro level traction that is applied in a longitudinal sense will arrange the new parent cells parallel to the traction force, and that will BIAS the "growth" longitudinally somewhat, but this is a bias towards length, not an exclusion of girth. Any form of Penis Enlargement increases the number of cells, that is THE function, purpose, and goal, of any of it. What ALL forms of "growth" exercises is increase volume because of the new cells created. I myself have an ignorant personal bias towards longitudinal "expansion", but even I will admit that long term, overall significant volume increases of the penis through the process of accumulating and "creating" new cells will "grow" the penis in all directions. LOL You will not be able to create a dick that is 10" around and 4" long with vacuum...it won't happen. And you will not be able to create a dick that is 12" long and 1" around with an extender. It just won't happen. The tissues we are working with are just too pliable. Getting enough blood to fill such creations above would have to break laws of how fluid pressure works to accomplish such a thing. We are not breaking the laws of physics here...or anywhere else. Our penis is not a single "string" that can be manipulated that drastically, it is millions and millions of "strings" that can be can be limited slightly.

Vitalus is just an early prototype of the vacuums that could be designed for PMS. I think that a Bathmate at sufficiently lower intensity, one that could be maintained constantly heated fluid, would be superior. But again, that is only not really being tested because people use to much intensity to take advantage of a PMS. (And I don't own one myself :D) But the people working at, or rather designed, Vitalus are definitely on the right track for sure.

Two, the other really good point you made is about the "spontaneous" erections that occur during sleep. Yes, that is problematic when dealing with extender devices. And if you are the type of person who has already made your flaccid stretch significantly larger than your erect length, you are asking for definite trouble going to sleep with that extender on maxed out. This will most cause two very big problems. One, your engorged penis is shorter than your flaccid stretch capability. Thus an erection during sleep would cause a very big increase in intensity of stretch. BAD! Two, your erection is going to increase in circumference, thus tightening and further restricting the blood flow beyond that which you could tolerate normally. You would essentially be sending your penis to the gallows. BAD!

I will shout from the rooftops again and again, the maximum intensity or force of any device worn during the sleep period should be AT LEAST 30% LESS than you would otherwise be able to tolerate for sixteen straight hours. Meaning if you can't tolerate/apply a level of force at all times when awake, you cannot even tolerate that 70% of that level throughout the sleep period. Whether you are using extenders or pumps doesn't mean cr*p in this regard. And I wouldn't even advise using the 70% level of contant tolerable/applicable force to start with. Why take chances? Why is the Penis Enlargement world so intent on driving so fast that they skid into the ditch at every turn? We will drive MUCH further down the road in our lifetimes if we drive slow enough that we never waste time in the ditch. Remember the tortoise and the hare? Well that is what high-intensity in Penis Enlargement does. We are the hare until we can apply a PMS.

The Lunatic,

Tom

dickerschwanz;473654 said:

Hydromax. but when is the moment the cells decide what type of collagen they form? during the 2 hour phase after force induction or during the 24 hour growth cycle? sorry if I missed that if already stated but I try to catch on
Im just thinking that an initial bigger force may push more cells into the daughter phase(I dont know but sounds logic lol). and then we work with this daughter cells for 2 hours and then again a short bigger/more intense force and thena gain 2hours constant force and that for the whole day.
a bit like dlds workout here :http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?58964-Gain-1-inch-in-12-Weeks-Total-SizeGenetics-Bathmate-Workout
ffirst some manual stretches that are more intense like the sg and after that the sg to stabilish them. Interestingly dld chooses 2 hours sg after the manual workout. Its in his blood how to grow without any need for explanation ^^

Click to expand...

The "daughers" are encoded during the entire mitosis phase. There is no single moment in time that they take a snap shot of the parent to replicate during the rest of the cell cycle. If there was such a point it would be the exact moment that the S phase was complete and the two daughter were completely separate for the first time. But that exact moment, as well as the exact moment when mitosis began, is impossible to place your finger upon. So even worrying about it, or figuring out how to take advantage of it, is pointless.

Furthermore, the second after once cell enters mitosis, if you are still applying force, another cell is entering mitosis, and so on, and so on. If we were to somehow be able to look at this section of the cell cycle withing your entire penis, that stretch or span of the belt is always filled with "splitting" parents from one end to the other at various stages of the mitosis phase. So what can we do to make that better with our external artificial forces? Nothing. If the conveyor belt is full, that is the best that we can do. Period.

Once the mitosis phase is over, there is nothing we can do to manipulate what those daughters will become. Their encoding is complete and the will go through the rest of the cell cycle until the are replicas in both size and structure of the parent that split to create them. You can do nothing to these daughters until they appear as parents at the gzero phase, or reemerge back at the beginning of the conveyor belt :D

Yes, a bigger force increases the likelihood that you will induce more separation of more cells while applying that force. However, there are only so many parents present at any one time in the "waiting room" at gzero, there is only a finite amount of nutrients that can be supplied to the number of cells moving throughout the entire cell cycle at any given time, and there is only so much force that can be maintained at all times. One must stop looking at isolated moments in time if this is ever going to be understood. It has to be looked upon as a never-ending continuous process. That process must run as much as possible, hopefully continuously, within the limits stated above.

There is NO need whatsoever to impart more force than is necessary to induce the number of parents available at any time. Doing so is WASTED effort, not to mention increasingly strenuous and nutrient robbing. Even the fibers that we stress where no mitosis is taking place consume energy to do the resistance. Something to keep in mind.

It is almost as if people are looking at how is the best way to get off the starting line in a race. And trying to make the best conditions for a faster and faster launch off of the starting line. But what they wind up doing is spinning their wheels excessively, blowing their engines, and never reaching the finish line, or at least making horrible times. LOL Even if this is a race, we want to not spin our wheels, blow our engines, or crash halfway down the track. :D We simply want to achieve the best times possible. We would be probably far better off to think of high-intensity in general as a bad and unnecessary concept. This is NOT body building in any way, shape, or form. It is COMPLETELY different. We don't want to make "muscles"...we want to make cells...as many as we can...as efficiently as we can. :D

I will say unto everyone, the idea of maximizing intensity, has no significant relationship at all to do with the final number of cells created in the long run. See the geometric series formula again. And again. And again. In the long-run, the force that we use is insignificant in comparison to time (or iterations if you will). This has to be pounded into our heads over and over and over again.

To the last part...LOL...Daddy is da' Man! I did mention earlier that we could have periods of spiked tolerable intensities. But there is an inherent flaw in thinking that this helps us in any way. That flaw, as I eluded to earlier, is that it "thought" that one would benefit by shoving more parents into mitosis, but this only is "reasonable" when looked at from a faulty viewpoint, at a single instant in time.

Yes, shoving as many parents into mitosis as possible as if they were all just waiting to get started and you have never exercised in your life, would be beneficial to an accelerated start of the process. But in reality, that is not the case at all. There is always a mixture of waiting parents and growing daughters, whether or not we are even exercising, the cell cycle is always active to some extent with our bodies. For example, cells die, creating gaps naturally, causing adjacent cells to enter mitosis, without any "outside" stimulous at all. This is natural, is always happening, and takes place throughout our entire bodies. And whenever we do artificially induce mitosis even intermittenly, we alter this mixture of "waiting" versus "growing" cells.

A PMS has to be viewed as a perpetual system, a constant flow if you will. It can not be evaluated or improved upon by looking at specific moments of time to find further possible improvements in efficiency. And if you do "find" it, it is an illusion. For if we get the conveyor belt running where there are as many parents entering it as are appearing, that is the very absolute best that we can do. There is no way to improve upon that. In a way, looking at it slightly different, the ideal is to simply fill the belt with daughters so that parents never actually exist for more than a moment. Once the belt is full, adding more daughters simply slows down the conveyor belt, and it actually hurts our progress and SLOWS "growth" of the overall organ. There can, and will, be a tremendous amount of parents never induced into mitosis and we would still be growing as fast as is possible. The conveyor belt can only carry so many cells at any time. Damned illusions of single instants in time!

There is a maximum "flow" if you will, that the system can tolerate. We cannot exceed this no matter how much effort we apply. And attempting to do so actually slows and CAN STOP growth in the number of cells. That is the tragedy, and highly hidden viewpoint, that can not be seen when looking at a single moment in time. Which leads to all of the sili, inefficient, unproductive, and quite detrimental "high-intensity" indoctrination. High-intensity is not a key to growth, sufficient intensity is. If that can be understood, we will all be able to get over such illusory hurdles to maximizing efficiency. Only then can we work on real hurdles to maximizing growth and efficiency.

Solid Snake;473666 said:

I swear this is the most worded thread and it's only on page 2! :S

Click to expand...

Sorry Solid. :D If I actually spent this much time inducing mitosis as I do spouting my gibberish here, I would be growing much faster LOL!