HCG Experiment

Much appreciated that you're keeping this updated. Really interested in seeing how it goes. Are you holding off on injecting the HCH until the PGE1 arrives? Wasn't sure with how you worded it.

*UPDATE*

I have discontinued the HCG. The amount being injected was on the low side and apart from some testicular fullness, dont think it was achieving much. So I've decided to go a different route and got a few supplies...

In my possession atm:
*Bathmate (Using everyday for the past 4 days. Great pump! If only my flacid was that big without it...)
*HGH (am curently doing 2-3iu 5on 2 off)
*Andractim (Used twice so nothing to report
*HCG (Unopened 5000 iu)
*Tamoxifen tablets (unused)

To be ordered this week or already ordered:

* Testosterone Enanthate 250mg/ml
*Ru 58841 Solution (I'm prone to MPB and have a bit of temple recession. Also have nizoral 2% which I already been using)

Wow never thought I'd go the steroid route, and the thing is I'm not even interested in the muscular gains from it, since I already have decent genetics muscular-wise (not bragging). With a steroid cycle I'm hoping to perhaps induce a second puberty so to speak and see if I can complete what mother nature hasn't and achieve my genetic potential.

After some research (on going) the cycle would probably go as:

0-6 months HGH 3iu 5 on 2 off
1-10 weeks 125-250 mg Test E (1 injection)
6-10 weeks HCH 2x500 iu/week


PCT:
11 week Nolva (tamoxidfen) 20x2 ED
12-14 weeks Nolva 20mg ed

The amount of Test E isn't much so to the MOS members here experienced with gear:

1.How does this looks? Any modifications/opinions ?
2. Should I avoid using andractim (twice a week) while on cycle?
3. Going to use RU solution (scalp androgen blocker). should I also look into finesteride while on cycle to make sure hair loss is kept to an absolute minimum, zero if possible?

Lastly, I've got an appointment tomorrow with my doctor to schecule some blood tests asap. It's only a mild steroid cycle, but I've never went that route before so I want to be on the safe side of things and keep risks to a minimum.

If you are prone to MPB, be careful with this. The andractim is probably not going to affect MPB as much as the test E will, but I would not recommend taking finasteride preventatively because if it is working to prevent hair loss, you will have to stay on it indefinitely or you will shed all that it spared while on it. Are you currently experiencing MPB? If not, go through with the cycle but watch for shedding and if it occurs then start the fin but be prepared to stay on it. I think RU is safe to start on at any time, I'm looking into mixing some up myself. Once MPB starts, you can't turn it off and I believe gear takes your genetic starting point and moves if forward. I didn't think I was prone to MPB but it kicked in strong over the last couple months and I'm way too young. I started fin/nizoral/rogaine regimen right away to try to stop it in it's tracks. If it keeps up at this rate, I'll be fully bald in 6 months, it came on fast and strong. I thought I didn't care much about my hair until it started falling fast, so evaluate the pros and cons carefully.

This mpb issue is on my mind all the time, am a nw2 with a bit of recession at the temples. Physically i take it after my grandfather... he got bald in his 20's but was also hung like a horse. My situation? The exact opposite, still hair but small bellow. I can only conclude that low levels of DHT preserved my hair till now. What's confusing is that i did have acne during puberty and experienced the broadening of the shoulders etc.

Whats your reasoning behind Andractim not affecting hair as much as Test e? Will the gel have mostly a topical effect, whereas test e will increase dht levels systemically? 125mg weekly doesn't seem much compared to 500-750 that you see some bodybuilders on.

Sorry to hear about your hair troubles. Have you also looked into CB for hair loss, its been suggested that may be even better than RU, as long as they can find a suitable vehicle. There's a lab right now testing it in a nanosome solution. Members at hair loss forums waiting for it to pass a stability test to get on it.

DHT, is it not consistent with hair loss?

Haven't pulled the trigger on the Test yet...

Deciding on:

Option1: HGH & 125mg Test e for 10 weeks
Option2: HGH & HCG (2500 iu /week) for 8 weeks

Dford, you believe hcg will be less harsh on hair? Both options will give me testosterone beyond my current levels..

Ultra- I have looked at CB, I'm still new to the hair loss stuff but I've heard good things about it. HCG will be less harsh on your hair than test E. HCG will only make your body produce it's own test at it's maximum capacity but test E will introduce more test exogenously than your body would produce on it's own. More test means more DHT. Both options will elevate your current levels, HCG will bring you to the high side of normal levels but E will take you beyond that, even at that low dose. If you choose the E, you should absolutely still take the HCG to prevent shutting down you own production even further, something like 250iu every second or third day starting around week 2 or 3 of the cycle and continuing for month after your last E dose. I haven't heard of HCG causing hair loss on it's own probably because it only takes you to within normal test levels, but I can see that if a person had very low test AND was heavily predisposed to MPB, even the increase to normal levels might have an impact.

DLD- DHT is certainly related to hair loss but I think andractim will result in much less circulating DHT than taking exagenous test.

Thanks Dford.
After consideration for my own worries and your advise, I'm gonna go down the HCG way:

-10,000iu have been ordered. 2500iu weekly -- m/w/f 1000/500/1000
-Box of tamoxifen already on hand
-RU58841 arriving early next week

Depending on how this goes after 4weeks, will either go for another 4weeks or perhaps persue the test e route after all. Also my blood test has been scheduled for tomorrow.

Ultra

Are you trying to create a second growth spurt?
And hoping this might get you some more penis size??

Emulate to a certain extent what happens during puberty by having high levels T and extra hgh. Hopefully this would give me what my genetics had in store for me and complete what was started.

To dford (appreciate the valuable info btw) or anyone who could answer:

How likely are my androgen receptors to be downregulated? Anything that can be done to upregulate them, that is apart from finesteride... Would dmso/paba help in this?

An upregulation of my receptors would maximise gains, if any.

Ultra;570771 said:

To dford (appreciate the valuable info btw) or anyone who could answer:

How likely are my androgen receptors to be downregulated? Anything that can be done to upregulate them, that is apart from finesteride... Would dmso/paba help in this?

An upregulation of my receptors would maximise gains, if any.

Click to expand...

I looked into this pretty extensively when I tried DHT gel. From what I could find, it is thought that DHT is largely responsible for penis growth during puberty and that DHT receptors are down-regulated after puberty and that's why penis growth stops, but there is no definitive data. Some say down-regulation does not occur and that other mechanisms are at play and some say that it does occur but it is not what's responsible for growth stopping. I wasn't able to come to any sort of conclusion either way, but I did notice that on all the forums, those who responded the best (or at all) to DHT gel were always younger guys. I didn't respond at all and I was in my late 20's when I tried it, which leads me to believe that there must be some correlation between DHT and penis size during puberty (but this is already known). I don't think dmso/paba will have any effect on receptors but it may help in other ways, like collagen de-linking/softening, but I haven't tried it. I researched things that might have effects on receptors and there are a few ways that receptor density changes. One way is to alter gene expression for the receptors, via growth factors or similar (like VEGF, IGF, HGH, etc.) but not all types of receptors respond to these in the same way or to the same extent even if we could target these where we would like. Another way is to use things that interact with the receptors (like agonists or antagonists) and these can cause either up-regulation or down-regulation (desensitization) depending on the receptor type and location. Sometimes excess agonist can cause down-regulation, like when a person develops a tolerance to a drug of that nature, and sometimes it can cause up-regulation as a compensatory mechanism. The same goes with antagonists. My conclusions are that there is not enough data, especially in regards to the penis, to come up with a good regimen. I tried Igf-1 lr3 for a while with PGE-1 and I think there is potential there but the PGE-1 is painful and it's hard to come up with consistent legit sources. Sorry for the rambling, hopefully some of it will help. I think in your unique situation, increasing androgens may help you more than others just keep an eye on the side effects. I think the HCG is a good, safer starting point and you can always try to escalate if from there if that doesn't work.

Ultra;570771 said:

To dford (appreciate the valuable info btw) or anyone who could answer:

How likely are my androgen receptors to be downregulated? Anything that can be done to upregulate them, that is apart from finesteride... Would dmso/paba help in this?

An upregulation of my receptors would maximise gains, if any.

Click to expand...

I looked into this pretty extensively when I tried DHT gel. From what I could find, it is thought that DHT is largely responsible for penis growth during puberty and that DHT receptors are down-regulated after puberty and that's why penis growth stops, but there is no definitive data. Some say down-regulation does not occur and that other mechanisms are at play and some say that it does occur but it is not what's responsible for growth stopping. I wasn't able to come to any sort of conclusion either way, but I did notice that on all the forums, those who responded the best (or at all) to DHT gel were always younger guys. I didn't respond at all and I was in my late 20's when I tried it, which leads me to believe that there must be some correlation between DHT and penis size during puberty (but this is already known). I don't think dmso/paba will have any effect on receptors but it may help in other ways, like collagen de-linking/softening, but I haven't tried it. I researched things that might have effects on receptors and there are a few ways that receptor density changes. One way is to alter gene expression for the receptors, via growth factors or similar (like VEGF, IGF, HGH, etc.) but not all types of receptors respond to these in the same way or to the same extent even if we could target these where we would like. Another way is to use things that interact with the receptors (like agonists or antagonists) and these can cause either up-regulation or down-regulation (desensitization) depending on the receptor type and location. Sometimes excess agonist can cause down-regulation, like when a person develops a tolerance to a drug of that nature, and sometimes it can cause up-regulation as a compensatory mechanism. The same goes with antagonists. My conclusions are that there is not enough data, especially in regards to the penis, to come up with a good regimen. I tried Igf-1 lr3 for a while with PGE-1 and I think there is potential there but the PGE-1 is painful and it's hard to come up with consistent legit sources. Sorry for the rambling, hopefully some of it will help. I think in your unique situation, increasing androgens may help you more than others just keep an eye on the side effects. I think the HCG is a good, safer starting point and you can always try to escalate if from there if that doesn't work.

Lol ramble all you want pal, great info. I've been researching also and even studies on puBathmateed can't seem to get to a definite conclusion.

I did experiment with pge1 for about 2 weeks, still have some left so may throw it in to the mix, once in a while.
I'm trying hgh and have some more ordered from a legit source so hopefully that will aid in any gains...we'll see!

I didn't respond at all and I was in my late 20's when I tried it, which leads me to believe that there must be some correlation between DHT and penis size during puberty

Click to expand...

What was the duration/frequency and dosage of your experimentation with DHT gel? More importantly, have you noticed any hair loss while on it?

Ultra;570389 said:

Thanks Dford.
After consideration for my own worries and your advise, I'm gonna go down the HCG way:

-10,000iu have been ordered. 2500iu weekly -- m/w/f 1000/500/1000
-Box of tamoxifen already on hand
-RU58841 arriving early next week

Depending on how this goes after 4weeks, will either go for another 4weeks or perhaps persue the test e route after all. Also my blood test has been scheduled for tomorrow.

Ultra

Click to expand...

Careful with high dosages of hCG for too long, it can desensitize your leydig cells, also I'd consider doing Test E for no shorter than 10 weeks, 14 being max, seeing as the compound starts to activate around week 5-6. Also, you should add in some hMG along with your hCG for balanced FSH levels and overall improved hormone regulation and wellness. One last thing, using hCG alone without Test as a base can be slightly suppressive of your HPTA, so I wouldn't advise it unless you suffer from clinical hypogonadism related to naturally low LH production. Good luck and read some more before fucking with your hormones, it can do more harm than good.

Ultra;570850 said:

What was the duration/frequency and dosage of your experimentation with DHT gel? More importantly, have you noticed any hair loss while on it?

Click to expand...

I applied it twice daily I think (whatever the recommended protocol is) and I didn't have any hair loss at all. I went through almost all of both tubes so the duration was probably a couple months.

Ultra;570850 said:

What was the duration/frequency and dosage of your experimentation with DHT gel? More importantly, have you noticed any hair loss while on it?

Click to expand...

I applied it twice daily I think (whatever the recommended protocol is) and I didn't have any hair loss at all. I went through almost all of both tubes so the duration was probably a couple months.

sizerp;570864 said:

Careful with high dosages of hCG for too long, it can desensitize your leydig cells, also I'd consider doing Test E for no shorter than 10 weeks, 14 being max, seeing as the compound starts to activate around week 5-6. Also, you should add in some hMG along with your hCG for balanced FSH levels and overall improved hormone regulation and wellness. One last thing, using hCG alone without Test as a base can be slightly suppressive of your HPTA, so I wouldn't advise it unless you suffer from clinical hypogonadism related to naturally low LH production. Good luck and read some more before fucking with your hormones, it can do more harm than good.

Click to expand...

I disagree, the test E will suppress the HPTA, the HCG supports it. The leydig cells can become desensitized after extended exposure, however. I think Ultra may have hypogonadism, I think he had his levels checked at one point, correct me if I'm wrong Ultra.