Christianity vs. PE - can they co-exist?

You (NeXuS, Shafty) love your ignorance, so who am I to separate you? All I can offer is the knowledge, knowledge you apparently want to deny exists, or have already written off as a fabrication before you have considered it. All you offer in return are sound bites and appeals to pity (poor little african boy) to fuel your arguments by outrage, which are meaningless for reasons I have already explained.

If there is other life in the universe, wouldn't it be right to suppose that God is taking care of them just as He's taken care of us? I don't see why you think that the Bible insists we're the only ones out there. The Bible is just God's revelation of Himself as is pertinent to us as humankind. We have special significance to God in that we are His creation, and I imagine that if there are four-legged, blue-skinned, three-eyed people living on some planet orbiting some distant star, I am certain that God would also place the same sort of significance on them.

NeXuS, I'm sorry to rouse you from your sweet, sweet dream, but you believe in an undefined religion. Plain and simple. You like it that way, because it places you in control. (J.R.R. Tolkien said it best when he said that the race of men desires power above all else.) You get to define what is in and what is out of your personal religion based on what is comfortable and convenient to you. Try and deny it. I could shoot you down again and again. If anyone has put God inside a box it is you because you think that you can decide and define for yourself the elements of God's own nature. It's not a question of rightness but of authority: who are you to say you can know God? You say that God is incomprehensible, yet you are talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say in the same breath that your own idea of what God should be is able to stand against all others and be proven right, thus implying that it IS possible to know. However, it is you who are in the dream world. You cannot influence the reality of God and His nature (which can only offer justice for the unsaved, and that is Hell, but the saved shall recieve mercy, grace, and eternal life) any more than I can influence the chemical properties of Aluminum. If you have anything at all, it is the understanding that there are things that are beyond human comprehension. But that is all you have (having rejected every specific revelation and thus being forced to resort to your own imagination, your "internal resources" as the atheists like to call them, to define your god), and when you are judged, I am sure you will regret your selfish attitude toward God ("if I can't define Him, I will deny Him."). You have rejected all else that can convince you otherwise. I am sure you'll attack this as "the same fire and brimstone preaching [you've] come to expect, unfailingly, from Christians of all stripes" but what can a mere human such as myself do but become frustrated when society has abandoned all logical reasoning and thinking? Your head is in the sand. Admit it. That you refuse to absorb any of the knowledge I have offered is concrete proof of this fact. When will you learn that arrogance and condescension is not a substitute for rational thinking? Probably never. I have done all I can. It profits me nothing more in Heaven or on Earth to continue this argument.

That's right. I am leaving this debate. Not because my position is "irrational" or because "the cracks are starting to show" or anything of the like. I'm sure we could go on debating this until they can't mine any more coal to burn in the power plants, but I shall not let Satan trap me here and keep me from usefulness elsewhere. You may have more air in your lungs than I do but my real, defined God can beat up the imagined, fake god that your confused imagination has pieced toether. You have not necessarily won this argument. I have simply decided to stop arguing. Throughout the years, Christianity has continued to stand on its own merits even though it is persecuted and resisted from all directions. The only explanation I can offer for this persecution is that this world recognizes and accepts its own (that which has been concieved by men), and naturally rejects that which is foreign (which, in this case, is anything that is truly from God, since this world has by its own free will shut Him out). One might even be able to say that this is the significance of crucifixion as the method of Christ's execution: crucifixion was reserved for foreigners. If I must walk as a foreigner in this world of hate then I will. I can do nothing less for my Lord.

BTW: I know what I know about the person and nature of my God only because He felt that it was important that He reveal Himself to the world. Everything I have ever said about God's nature has come directly from the study of His divinely-inspired Word, by which he continues in the present day to reveal Himself to anyone willing to lend an ear for a little while. I am not making this stuff up as I go along. (This may be news to some of you.)

And I don't need a cell-phone to talk to the God of the Bible.

"That you refuse to absorb any of the knowledge I have offered is concrete proof of this fact."

Its funny that your "concrete facts" are nothing more than myth and speculation.

"if I can't define Him, I will deny Him"

How many time do I gotta say it?? I dont deny God by any means. I deny man's attempt to figure out God.

"but I shall not let Satan trap me here and keep me from usefulness elsewhere"

Are you implying that I'm the devil?

"my real, defined God can beat up the imagined, fake god that your confused imagination has pieced toether"

My God can kick your God's Ass!! I used to say this kinda stuff to my friends when we'd compare who's dad could kick who's ass.
:fight:

Dont leave!! Havent you listened to System of a Down? The Devil is so Lovely.......

"Its funny that your "concrete facts" are nothing more than myth and speculation. "

Nothing but sound bites. No examples, even. I still haven't seen you back this up with any resonable amount of logical firepower.

(two can play at this game. :blahblah

"How many time do I gotta say it?? I dont deny God by any means. I deny man's attempt to figure out God."

I guess I should thank you for making my job easy here. It seems that you've got Him pretty well figured out, so come on. Tell me you're not saying by this that you (a man, I would suppose) have figured out God? That you yourself have comprehended his existence and nature independently of any outside influence (including specific revelations, all of which you have already dismissed as "man-made") and thus, all on your own, quantified infinity! (That's a metaphor for that which you accuse me of, "putting God inside a box", by the way.)

What I mean to say by this is that you claim to believe in God yet you reject all influence from every specific revelation so the only way you could know about God or believe in Him is if you yourself were able to percieve, all on your own, His existence or comprehend, all on your own, His nature. If you say you do not believe in religious truth, then you have already defeated yourself because you yourself have already expressed a religious truth.

:bouncings:

And THAT'S the game, folks!

FYI, I never put God inside a box. I did not open the Bible and find God Himself. I found a revelation of Him, where He made Himself known to US as humankind. After all, since we cannot reach out to him, he would have to reach in to us. (This is because the infinite incorporates the finite, not the other way around, as I have ALREADY stated. )
:s

Continuing on...

"Are you implying that I'm the devil?"

This is a reasonable question for someone as not-in-the-know as you. The Bible tells us that there is an enemy of our souls (which we call Satan, or "Adversary"). The Enemy seeks to make Christians as ineffectual as possible, and while I do not believe that you yourself are the Devil, the Devil can try and cause me to be weak against argument, to constantly be drawn in to arguments, and to love argument so much that there would be nothing else I'd rather do than while away my days arguing with people who are so dug-in at their position that I cannot hope to move them. After all, it has been said that the only result of argument is that each party walks away more convinced than ever that they themselves are right.

"my real, defined God can beat up the imagined, fake god that your confused imagination has pieced toether"

Ok, I actually said this. I am responding in order to clarify. This is to say that if left to argue, I will probably be able to show just how lacking in real substance your concept of God really is, because you have no authority to define God's nature. But I really need to stop this and move on in my life. All I can do is pray for you, that God might be able to provide the experience or series of experiences that brings you to finally understand.

And the real mistake here is letting System Of A Down teach you everything you know about religion. There is some meaning, though, to their statement "the Devil is so lovely". The enemy of our souls pretty much has free reign over many people's lives because he has managed to convince them that the idea of some Devil who flies around and appears in a poof of flame on someone's shoulder and whispers stuff in their ear is utterly laughable, and has managed to get people to draw the conclusion from that that he doesn't exist. Once the Enemy manages to do that, how can a person know any better as they are led like livestock to respond only to their impulses and fickle desires, and ultimately to the slaughter? After all, responding to those impulses feels sooooo gooood.......... :hammer: How can they possibly be wrong? :hammering:

There you have it. I'm done with this. As far as I am concerned, I've obliterated the opposition's arguments and won the debate. :blasting: After all, you keep repeating (or rephrasing) the same old things that Iv'e already answered.

The amazing thing is that all the arguments about God are by people who only have a head knowledge of who or what they think God is. You can NOT have just a head knowledge. Even the religious radicals of the Bible had a head knowledge of Christ, yet they crucified Him. To REALLY KNOW God you MUST have a HEART knowledge of Him. When it gets out of your head and into your heart then ALL arguments will cease.

As far as pe and Christianity being done together thats very simple. Does the Bible not say and I quote from 3rd John verse 2 ....Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth... Isn't pe exercises done to make the penis healthy? Better circulation, and a ton of other reasons. The problem is that when you forget the as thy soul prospereth part. Thats a personal thing for each individual to work out. God also made corn for food. You can enjoy it as it was intended or you can let the corn ferment and make liquor from it and get drunk. What I am saying is that you can make sin from anything that you do.

that resolves the topic nicely. Thanks, C-Guy.

"It seems that you've got Him pretty well figured out, so come on. Tell me you're not saying by this that you have figured out God?"

Thats my POINT!! I HAVENT figured out God. And I make no attempt to. I will only know the answers, when I die. So until then, I will continue to Penis Enlargement and continue to be the "devil", as you call me.

You HAVE figured out God in your mind. You say God is a Him, and the Bible is his word, and he made the earth in seven days, and blah, blah, blah....

"No examples, even. I still haven't seen you back this up with any resonable amount of logical firepower."

Example for what? That Christianity is bullshit?? Because I can give you thousands. Here's one, it has logically proven by scientists and evidence that the Earth is about 4.5 billions years old. According to the Bible, Earth would only be about 6 thousand years.

I'll have to agree with Nexus:
you haven't really made a good argument on behalf of the kind of god you're trying to promote here. You claim that you have, but I'm not swayed by your 'arguments' at all. You also claim that we haven't offered any concrete proof that would back up our beliefs. Yet again I must disagree. As long as I remain shackled to this earthly existance and my limited knowledge of human spirituality, I will not dare to be as arrogant as to claim that I have any answers. Unlike you. And, if you read my previous posts over again you will have to agree that I have not made any such claims. I've only stated that I don't have any certain answers.

Now, if you feel His divine presence in your heart, then good for you, all the more power to ya. I, however, do not. Not at least in such a way as you. In my mind, the fact that the majority of earth's population is born outside the influence of christianity is proof enough that you shouldn't follow any certain religion to the letter. Your idea of god, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is largely based upon western morals and ethics, it is something that you have been taught to accept. You also seem to have a clear idea of what is sinful and what is not. Well then, tell me this:

Cannibalism is sinful, correct? OK, let's say that a tribe of humans which hasn't been discovered yet by the outside world is living in some deep, dark jungle. The jungle is scarce in providing them with enough food, so they resort to cannibalism. Just to supplement their otherwise meager diet. They have been doing it for centuries, and their code of morals doesn't condemn or stigmatize it. Then let's say that this tribe is discovered by western explorers, who are horrified at their cannibalistic ways.
Yet these people see nothing wrong in it. They have simply been raised in a different culture with different standards and morals. Who are we christians to tell them what is right and what is wrong? Now, according to you fire-and-brimstone christians, these people would burn in hell for their atrocities, or at the very least, end up in limbo. And their only mistake was being born in the ''wrong'' place and culture. How can god selectively choose a certain segment of humanity to take under his wing?

I think this theory is proof enough. Probably not for you, and I'm counting on the fact that you'll try and discredit it somehow, but it does the job for me.

You also state that we ignore the signs that prove His existance. Wrong. There are no signs to ignore in the first place. The only sign I recognize is the way the universe and our planet Earth have such an ingenious design to them, suggesting that someone or something of unquestionable intelligence and Godly power is responsible for creating them. Yet the idea that us humans, specifically CHRISTIAN humans and their morals and ethics are somehow superior to all other cultures and lifeforms is simply put, arrogant as HELL.

One last thing before I go: I love and respect life in all its glory, both flora, fauna and intelligent life, and I'm about as pure hearted and caring a person as it gets. I sound like a posterboy for the Christian church, don't I? Well, regardless of my virtue and respect for life I still don't feel the presence of the kind of god you describe. I do feel love, and happiness, hate and everything in between, but no God in there. Even as a child I always felt somewhat agitated when attending church... the pastors words rang hollow in my ears, and I could not find any comfort from the whole organization.

Life, the universe and the fact that I'm here are beautiful things, but I don't feel like I owe it to God to dedicate myself to a life of strict moral codes and ethics. I prefer trusting my own judgement of what's right and what's wrong in any given situation. So far the feedback has been positive: ''Shafty, you are an incredibly kind soul. I never knew people like you existed'' ...and so forth... :D
In another words, I don't NEED Christianity to be a good person. I'm doing a damn fine job of it already.

Originally posted by Omul_Paianjen

Now Nexus, marriage used to be sacred when people believed in God. IF there aren`t people that believe in the holyness binding them togheter through marriage, than who will for them?
If people believed in God they wouldn`t cheat, they wouldn`t steal, they wouldn`t KILL... The world would be perfect... A Holy world......
Now there are more and more non-believers that attract more non-believers to their side...... We`re turning Earth to Hell.....

Click to expand...

Wow, I didn't know Bill Oreilly was a Penis Enlargement-er.

Seriously, I have avoided this thread because as a non-theist; I respected the wishes of the poster to keep this a "Christian discussion."

However this point (quoted) really disturbs me, and I had to interject. This kind of thinking is making 2 (at least) false assumptions.

1. (Philosophcal) It implies somehow that morality is exclusive to religion (while I would argue the exact opposite;that is another thread entirely). It implies that "non-believers" not only lack morals, but are immoral and dragging the world to Hell.

2. (Sociological, pragmatic use)It implies that Christianity, in practice, is good for society. Somehow it keeps society functioning optimally and that "non-believers" are a threat to the normal functioning of society.

My Counterpoints:

1. Atheists are no more likely to behave ( yes, I said behave, because behavior is what ultimately matters, not thought alone) immorally than Christians. I counter that "non-believers" are more moral because they live a reason-based existence in reality and embrace conceptual thinking. they are more likely to be accountable and responsible for their actions, rather than passing them off to some mystical entity.

2. It is a fact MOST people believe in God, yet society is getting worse. This is not due to a rise in "secularism." Most people who lie, cheat, and steal are "believers." I believe the cause is psycho-epistemological.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect a non-believer , who behaves rationally based on real principles to to live a moral life worthy of exhaultation. It is as reasonable to expect a "believer ( which is often a false term, as the "believer" has no beliefs of his own), who has no developed conceptual mentality and a repressed perceptual mentality, combined with an embrace of illogical mystic "non-values"; to live a life of depravity.

Excellent post, Bigbutnottoo... :bottumsup

Both of you guys had great posts.....:clap:

Originally posted by NeXus
Both of you guys had great posts.....:clap:

Click to expand...

I second that for Shafty's post.

You guys can pat yourselves on the back all you want. I'm standing back. Looks to me like the atheists are running the show here. I guess it's my fault for not expecting that a post that mentions the name of Jesus Christ in a positive light would pull every atheist ("freethinking"- yeah, right) on the board out of the woodwork.

What I have figured out about God in my own mind is only as a result of God putting it in condensed form for me. (the Bible.) When I say that Nexus himself has God figured out, I mean that Nexus has still managed to hold on to his perceptions of unexplainable things and to attribute them to a supernatural power he calls God, even though he has rejected every written work or spoken word that claims to be a specific revelation of this supernatural power which they call "God", when it is by those very specific revelations that he would have learned to attribute those unexplainable things to a supernatural entity called "God", in the first place. If NeXus really believed that none of the specific revelations attributing unexplainable things to "God" were credible in the least, then why is he still attributing those things to "God"? "Great Spirit" seemed to work well enough for the Native Americans, right?

Anyway, consider this: A louder voice does not lend more truth to a falsehood. Since your minds are already closed to actually learning anything about my God, you aren't worth my time because your behavior reveals you don't care at all about learning the absolute truth, but instead seek only to assert that you yourself are "right". Apparently you aren't above misrepresenting me and my position, so I'm not about to try and play Whack-A-Mole trying to knock down all the strawmen. As soon as I pound one down, another one pops right back up.

bigbutnottoo- the idea here is that it is not the fault of the set of beliefs and principles themselves that people fail to keep them, but rather it is the fault of men, for not resisting the tempation to deviate. That is why we as Christians believe that Christ was sent, though, so that even when we fail to keep the principles and truths, we can still be forgiven for our failures. That's the very idea here.

My clear idea of what is sinful and what is not is clear because what is sinful and what is not is clearly defined by the Bible, which men do not have the authority to change. Without contact with God, it's only to be expected that cannibalists wouldn't know anything better. In fact, this is an argument against secular humanism more than anything else becasue the values and principles that are supposedly "born in" to us all "instincively", in order to "preserve a society", are not evident in those cannibals, who aren't above murdering each other for food.

If a theory has indeed been discredited, but you still believe it, then aren't you, by that very decision, choosing to embrace the things you LOVE more than your precious LOGIC and REASON? Oh, stupid me, love doesn't exist...

My understanding of God is based on western Morals and ethics? I'd like to see you justify that one, seeing as how the Bible has been around a lot longer than the good ol' US of A or even Europe for that matter. It predates the establisHydromaxents of the borders of the continents as we know them today. How, then, can my understanding of God, which is based on the Bible alone, be in any part "based" on western ethics and morals? "Don't be stupid, Beavis...there's always been TV!"

Who cares if your subjective opinion of God and Christian thinking is "arrogant", if it is correct? Correctness is all that matters. If it is correct, then does God not have the authority to be as arrogant as he wants? (We're lucky he is not Mr. Fire and Brimstone, I'll tell you what...)

NeXuS, I didn't call you the Devil. I explained this plainly and simply. Yet you continue to assert that I did in order to vilify me. Don't try and deny that you are misrepresenting me because this is an example of exactly that.

"Example for what? That Christianity is bullshit?? Because I can give you thousands. Here's one, it has logically proven by scientists and evidence that the Earth is about 4.5 billions years old. According to the Bible, Earth would only be about 6 thousand years."

Well, here's what I have to say about this: You can go and look for your answers at that one site I have mentioned at least 5 times by now:

http://www.tektonics.org

you can find what you're looking for there. But you don't care about finding the absolute truth, only knocking me personally down, and asserting that you yourself are right. That's why it's worthless to me to carry on an argument with you people. You're not about finding a resolution, but instead you care more about getting the last word. That way it looks like you won the argument, without you actually having to win it. I know you won't even glance at the content of the Tekton Apologetics Ministries site becasue inside you are afraid that you might find a well-researched, highly-reasoned rebuttal that leaves you sitting in the dirt wondering what hit you. A little learning can indeed be a dangerous thing, and you realize this full well. That is why you prefer to not challenge yourself and your mind and your established perceptions of reality. If we boil down our discussion, we'd wind up with something a lot more like this:

NeXuS: "You believe that the Bible is the word of God. But it's not."

buz: "Why not? I can offer you well-researched, highly-reasoned information about why it is."

NeXus: "I don't Care! It's not!!"

buz: "It IS, and here are the reasons!"

NeXuS: "NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT!!!!!"

buz: "Well, if you change your mind and choose to approach this with the proper attitude, here is the web site: http://www.tektonics.org "

Sometimes the delete key can be your best friend.

I bid you all good day.

Logic says ...."When it rains clouds are present... Today clouds are present therefore it is raining.. There is NOTHING logical about the word of God. Logic will NEVER understand God or how old the earth is or anything else about the Bible. You either get it thru heart knowledge or revelation or you DON'T get it at all.

Last time I checked the heart was an organ incapable of knowledge.

Originally posted by buz
the values and principles that are supposedly "born in" to us all "instincively", in order to "preserve a society", are not evident in those cannibals, who aren't above murdering each other for food.

Click to expand...

I never said values are instictive. There are not. I do not believe man is a savage that needs to be saved from himself. Apparently Christians believe men are savages without God ( WHich of course is BS). I do not believe in living based on instincts, primal urges,etc( which would support the man as savage theory). I believe man is a rational capable being. Values are not instintice. They are consciously developed. Based on what you have said, Christians believe a man is stupid, irrational, and incapable of living without "sinning". The worst aspect IMO is that Christians believe that all men are sinners before they are even born, that all men are equally bad and worthy of pity.

lol that dont even look like a picture though so whats up with that? looks like some painting or drawing. I dont think any penis that big exist on this planet unless its some kind of new genetic engineering experiment. Half of that dick would be humongous

NeXuS: Oh, I forgot to tell you. When you get there, you'll have to click on some of those blue, underlined words in order to get at any of the content. They're called Hyperlinks, and they allow people to navigate a web site by keywords. It's unlikely you'll see much that is of any interest to you unless you click on some of those hyperlinks. Or perhaps you could try the handy search feature, Hydromaxm? That web site has been responsible for revealing the facts of the faith to many people, including the author of another web site, http://www.ex-atheist.com. You must have been wearing beer goggles to not be able to find any truly relevant content. Don't dismiss the site until you have taken an actual look. However, I must also consider the possibility that perhaps you did view the site, saw the arguments, and were so frightened that you might have been wrong about the whole thing (which would have been an tremendous insult to the pride of the superficially intellectual) that you decided to publicly dismiss it, instead, hoping that no one else would actually visit the site, read, and be changed and recognize you for a liar.

As for myself, I have not seen any real valid evidence come from you, just the same old copied-and-pasted nonsense that I would expect to hear from a certain atheistic high-school student I know, but I thought you were a lot older and more mature than that. I haven't seen anything yet that can convince me that this stuff is all wrong and I am a moron, a loser, and a jerk for believing it and telling other people about it. I'v only heard you tell me that I'm a moron, a loser, and a jerk, and use a bunch of meaningless "arguments by outrage" to justify yourself.

I've taken the liberty of going back through our discussion and pulling out the http://www.tektonics.org articles that match up with the relevant topics we discussed.

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1

First off, while we were still on topic, onanism was at issue. Here is an article about that.

> http://www.tektonics.org/onanbash.html

It basically says that the actual act of spilling the seed was not Onan's sin, and not even what was at issue in this passage, which has been used by lots of atheists to try and paint God as unfair for not allowing man to masturbate.

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2

NeXuS, in your second post you began trying to justify yourself through the use of arguments by outrage (the catholic priests doing little boys, the poor, poor little african boy who has never heard about Jesus) and never really stopped. I already showed you where the blame was to be placed for that last one I mentioned, and it's not on God. Anyway, here's an article on why arguments by outrage do not work, logically.

> http://www.tektonics.org/outrage.html

This one is also good for all of you that "can't allow yourselves to believe in a God who would allow such terrible things to happen". Read and be enlightened. Apparently Thomas Paine liked this type of argument as well.

Those are the big ones pertaining to our discussion. Here are some other ones about Christianity in general.

The divinity of Christ - http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_02_01.html
The continued existence of Christianity as proof of the Ascension - http://www.tektonics.org/nowayjose.html
Companion debate feature to the previous - http://www.tektonics.org/tifdebate.html
A tutorial on logical fallacies - http://www.tektonics.org/fallacies.html
Christ was really real - http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

And, if you want any more, or want more specific information, the Tektonics site has a nifty search feature.