I might have guessed that people might ignore the fact that this thread is intended towards Christians wondering if Penis Enlargement requires them to sacrifice their walk with God in orger to improve their body in that way and start taking over with atheist and "who gives a f---" talk. Again, I'll say it: This thread is for Christians who are wondering if they can pursue Penis Enlargement without sacrificing their Christian walk.
I see while I've been gone, you guys have left me with a rather full plate. Since these are things that have to be dealt with sooner or later, I guess I will go ahead and start from the beginningand work my way through.
Omul_Paianjen:
Here's the deal with Onan: God intended for Onan to put his seed into the woman for the specific purpose of producing an heir to all that stuff. The real idea here is that he even acted as though he was going to obey God, until the very last second, where Onan defied God's very command by spilling the seed on the ground instead. Don't mistake the special, specific case of Onan to apply to general cases of masturbation, because masturbation is not even what's really at issue here. I guess I can't really convince you, Omul, if you've got this attitude of "my assumptions are correct, no matter what you say", that masturbation in and of itself is not a sin, but I have already researched this (that's right, these aren't just my assumptions) and found a multitude of articles from extremely reputable and knowlegeable Christian apologists that agree with me, if that changes anything. I could list them here if you're interested in checking them over for yourself.
As far as self-improvement in and of itself being a sin, I would just have to say that is not right because God didn't ever get that specific. He said "do whatever you do for the glory of God", not "If you're doing anything except praying, you're probably sinning." If you can do what you do for the glorification of God, then that is the way it should be done. Quite honestly, I feel sorry for you if you feel that God has you so totally under his thumb that you must only ever pray. Right now, I'm talking in the context of the God of the Bible. I don't know what the Qur'an says about that sort of thing, and right now it doesn't matter that much to me, because this thread is targeted towards matters pertaining to Christians.
NeXuS:
I might have guessed you would bring up the whole Catholic priest thing, as it seems to be a weapon of choice for many atheists when they're looking ot make some meaningless arguments by outrage to try and stir up an angry mob against God. Not like it makes any difference - God is God, no matter what those few priests did, and God's position as master and ruler of the universe is not threatened by the deviant acts of a few mere men. It does not even affect the credibility of the Bible, just the Catholic church in its own interpretations.
The Abortion Guy: Again, another argument by outrage. And again, it makes no difference. People have done some stupid, stupid things in the name of God. This happens when man mixes earthly philosophy with the holy philosophies of God: you get a philosophy that is not completely holy, because it has an unholy element in it. Does that necessarily mean that God delights in or sanctions the use of murder? Certainly not! God has defined murder as sin, and he is not about to let it slide when that man comes to judgement (unless the guy has truly repented) becasue the Bible says God has no favorites in judgement. Again, God certainly does not sanction the use of sinful measures to achieve a desired end!
9/11 Hijackers: Do not try to pin the sins of people who aren't even Christian on Christianity itself. I would invite you to show me the Bible verse or verses where God condones such acts of terrorism, and I will show you why you have taken them out of context. (On the other hand, I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to find the Quranic verses where their god writes that they are to spread Islam through the use of military force.)
God apparently cares enough about how we live our sex lives to lay down some very clear rules in the Bible for how we are to live them.
"Don't claim to know God, because it is impossible": It IS possible to know God, to know his character and nature, by accepting His gift of salvation, by reading His Word (that's the Bible, btw) and by praying and living godly lives as prescribed by the Bible. That is HOW we come to know God, and tell me this: Do not people read the Bible to learn about God's nature? Have not people accepted Christ's gift of salvation and become changed as a result (in ways they could not have hoped to otherwise)? Do not people follow God's rules to improve their own lives, and does not it work with positive effect? Do not people pray, expressing themselves to God? I advise that you give a little more thought to this before you think that you can just say that it is impossible, and take a moment to notice those who are already doing it, becoming closer to His nature in the way they live their lives. You apparently have never truly tried with the right heart and spirit, and that is why you do not think it can be done - because you tried to do it your way and failed, and you can do EVERYTHING, right? Yet that is one of the very principles of man's relationship with God: if we actually hope for our relationship to be successful, we CAN'T try to continue on doing things our own way, but must begin to do things God's way (that is to say that we must strive to live godly lives). As for the Genesis tree... no, I DON'T get it. Man got knowledge of right and wrong, becoming like God in that way. That's when we went from following one simple rule (don't eat from the tree) to having to follow a thousand more complicated ones! The whole deal with the Genesis tree is that by eating from it, we sinned against god, becoming unholy in his sight (being cast out from the Garden). In order to know God, we suddenly had to know things that we, being merely human, cannot possibly know, and that is why it took the sacrifice of Christ to be as payment for the wrongs (sin) that are done when we as men fail to know God. The wrongs that are done when we fail to fully know God make us unholy in His sight and thus unable to go near him (since one of the conditions of holiness is that no sin can be near it, and thus near God.) but Christ's death served as payment for those sins and the end result is that our debts are paid and we can have the relationship with God that we did in the Garden of Eden - that relationship that we were made for.
Sorry dude, but facts is facts.
Omul: I agree with what you say about how doing things that are self-distructive is not only an example of irrational thought, but the very essence of what it means for a thought to be irrational.
I also like what I think you are trying to say when you say that sometimes knowledge is not always in our benefit. As we acquire knowledge, there are pieces of the puzzle that can't yet be fit because there are other pieces that must be found first. We must never make the assumption that simply because the pieces can't be fit right off the bat that the same pieces can't ever be fit. I especially like how you describe what it meant to have the knowledge that came with the metaphor of eating the apple. God had the knowledge of what was beyond innocence, and once man had that knowledge, it was at that point that man acquired the ability to sin.
AncientChina:
I agree with your views on �����������. I'm trying to say that, while it is sinful, it is also unnecessary to achieve the ends we are seeking. What I don't agree with is your claim that God sets different standards for everyone. Those things that have been defined in the Bible as sin are indeed sin. It doesn't vary from Bible to Bible. It doesn't even vary from translation to translation. At any rate, ejaculation really doesn't hurt anyone, but lust does.
I hear a lot of what is quite frankly "pissing and moaning" about Christians "imposing their morality" on other people, but you should consider this case: A person I know that is part of Campus Crusade for Christ was following up on some cards that people had filled out where they had checked the box where they would like to talk with someone. The guy I know went to this other guy's dorm to follow up on this, and he started talking with the other guy. Then the other guy said, "I'm fine with Christians, but I draw the line when people start imposing their morality on me." The guy I know said OK and got up to leave, but as he left, he grabbed a boom box that was sitting on a nearby shelf. The kid he had been talking to was like, "hey, you can't do that" but the guy I know is fairly built and physically capable and he said "What do you mean, I can't? Haven't I already done it? I mean, I already have it in my hands, don't I?" and then the other guy was like, "It's stealing, and that's wrong". To that, the guy I know responded "Well, I feel that this radio would be extremely helpful to my ministry, so I think I'll take it with me, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't try to impose your morality on me." Then the kid offered to sit down ant talk some more, and they talked for a long time and the end result was that the kid saw the Light and came to Christ in prayer.
Slayman:
Yeah, I agree. When bodybuilding becomes an addiction or obsession in and of itself, that is where it is dangerous, and no longer glorifying to God, because it is no longer the intention of the person to glorify God by the improvement of the self but simply to improve the self. That is when it becomes and matter of pride, and thus becomes sin. I once shared your view of masturbation as fornication, but after reading the articles, I have seen that such is not exactly the case. Fornication involves another, and him that masturbates lustfully is indeed committing fornication, though. That is the big distinction to be made here. It would appear that your heart is in the right place when it comes to all this.
Omul:
Here it seems that you take a very narrowed view of Penis Enlargement. Penis Enlargement can be used, as I have already stated, to improve the sexual relationship between a man and his wife. In that case it is NOT sinful because God Himself gave us the command to be fruitful and multiply, and then He gave us the instructions on how it was intended to be enjoyed. When we were in the Garden of Eden, we just naturally did the Godly thing, but once we knew what the alternatives were, we had to be given the instruction manual to know how to "drive" our lives or else this planet would be just a big stink-hole (as it appears to be becoming with the increased apostasy in the world.) As for how Penis Enlargement would be beneficial in the sexual relationship, it keeps the woman satisfied in bed, so she does not feel temped to go in search of that satisfaction elsewhere (with other, bigger men) and commit adultery. It helps keep your wife faithful to you, and increases your sense of devotion to your wife. Are those not right things?
Or, you could just read what 9cyclops9 said, because he basically makes all the right points here.
oopapercutoo: Your post shows you think a lot like my atheist grandfather, but this sort of moral relativism has no logical result other than to send us down the slippery slope until the only sins that are left defined as sin are those that are the most convenient to keep, like murder, stealing, and adultery. Make a valid argument otherwise.
As far as feeling better as a person, that's what God wants for us, and he has given us the tools to achieve that in the Bible. We achieve our greatest sense of purpose and fulfillment by living for God in the things that we do. God has given us rules that help us live in harmony in a bigger society than what our eyes can see.
As far as the Saint Peter bit goes, I doubt that would even be in his mind, as there is no need for sex in heaven. Greater pleasure (if you can fathom that) will be found in worshipping God as we were made to.
Man, that took a while. I think I've more or less covered everything. Take your best shot.
