Christianity and its relation to penis enlargement:

I have been a Christian since high school, and I have always tried to keep my walk with God clean and pure as is possible for me. I have more recently become self-conscious about the size and length of my penis (much like a fat person is probably self-conscious about his weight- I am sort of fat but not obese). Thus the question was raised in my mind, can one engage in penis enlargement practices without sacrificing their Christian walk with God?

It has been my belief that when a Christian man weds his wife, it is his responsibility to keep his wife satisfied in every way, so she will not experience temptation to go and look for that satisfaction elsewhere through adultery. I did not want my wife to constantly be disappointed in her experience with me on account of my relatively short 5.5” Johnson. I know I’m not all that great-looking or attractive, (though I hope to lose a little weight through exercise next semester) so I needed to be sure that my ability to satisfy my wife would carry over to the bedroom (where sexual activities between a man and his wife are not only tolerable, but even beautiful in the eyes of God.) So I turned to look at Penis Enlargement sites on the internet. I found some free information on manual techniques.

When I started reading about manual Penis Enlargement techniques, I read about the jelq. However, being up at college with no privacy, it was unlikely that I could grab proper lubricant and do a jelqing session. Instead of doing jelqing, I would instead put my full hand around the base of my shaft and close one finger at a time, squeezing more and more as the end got fuller and bigger, and I experienced a sensation of stretching and being engorged in that area, so I thought it was working. I later discovered what I was doing was similar to the Uli, sort of a “progressive Uli”. I would do about five minutes every other night, and then I stepped up to doing it every night. Then my penis started to get very sensitive – too sensitive – and I would begin to get very erect, and ejaculate after a very short time after that. For most guys, this would just end the routine. However, I had always heard from people that masturbation was a sin, and when my actions I was performing on my penis began to cause erection, I just assumed that this constituted masturbation, and that I had sinned. Now, as a Christian, we are taught that our sins have been paid for in full, but it has always been my strong desire not to sin against God, because once the enemy of our souls gets a foothold, more things can creep in. I experienced deep feelings of regret and shame at what I had done.

I later went back to Penis Enlargement a few weeks later, and found that I could “jelq” in the shower using shampoo as a lubricant. Soap dried out my skin. In the showers in my residence hall, there is a seemingly endless supply of hot water, but at home there is not. My interest in the Uli had become stronger, because in my eyes it is a much more portable girth workout than the jelq. I tried again, but it seemed I couldn’t continue for very long without the strong desire to blow a load. But that would be masturbation, and that would be sin…right?

I read my Bible and couldn’t find any specific information there, and so my search took me to the Internet, looking for a Christian site that would show me the answers I was looking for. I found http://www.boysunderattack.com, and read that the Bible itself said nothing about masturbation. I then read the explanation for why so many people view the acto f masturbation as sinful. Around those times of the early church, there was a sect called Gnosticism, which had a habit of going around and making up its own teachings, which is bad news. Contrary to what was said in the Bible, they began to teach that God had only made the spiritual world and that the devil had made the physical side, and that all sexual acts were repugnant and abominable in God’s sight. The Gnosticism sect began to acquire a following, because their teachings were closer to the way of life the people had been following up to that time, and they appeared to be more “pure” because of their stricter restrictions on acceptable sexual behavior. The Catholic church, to keep from losing followers, began to tighten things up beyond those things laid out in the Bible (the book of Leviticus, primarily), and even went so far as to say that masturbation was more repugnant than doing one’s own mother. Mind you, the Bible didn’t say that. There is a spot in one of the Old Testament books where this one guy Onan had a social and cultural responsibility to do this one guy’s wife because if he did not, there would be no heir to a large amount of property and goods, or perhaps an entire kingdom. However, Onan pulled out and “spilled his seed” on the ground. Then God struck him down as punisHydromaxent. Many use this as a condemnation of masturbation, but in reality the matter is elsewhere. It wasn’t that Onan spilled “seed”, but that he did so in disobeying God, who had commanded Onan to produce a son who could be an heir to the large amount of property/large sum of money/kingdom. It wasn’t that the guy pulled out and let his load go outside the woman, but that God had commanded for the load to go inside the woman to carry on this one tribe or kingdom.

So, masturbation in and of itself is not a big deal. Science even suggests that it is a natural part of being a young man, because the body is producing “seed” at a very rapid rate, and it has to come out. If not through masturbation, it will come out through nocturnal emission. There is, however, a catch: There is a strong temptation to lust after women (either by thoughts or by pornography) in order to achieve ejaculation while masturbating. Lust is sin, though the masturbation is not. So if any of you out there are Christian, just know that it is okay to do Penis Enlargement to the point of cumming, and even okay to engage in “edging”, which as part of its procedure requires the body to be on the verge of cumming, and blow a load afterwards. It’s just not OK to lust in doing so (no pr0n for me). Penis enlargement techniques are like lifting weights, only you are exercising and enhancing a more personal part of you, so you can satisfy your responsibility to your wife to make sure she is satisfied.

Now, a more technical question: How does one “uli” and how many “uli”s does it take to get the same effect as about 150 jelqs? Also, since the Uli is a somewhat advanced exercise, how does one stay safe while doing it?
 
WOW man great post. I take my walk with God very seriously. I am a Christian man of no religious back ground. I find that my Penis Enlargement can sometimes interfere with my walk with God because I would look at pornography. I would not lust after those women, it just turned me on to see the acts of sexual intercoarse. Now is that a sin to watch adult entertainment in that matter?

Also, I used to feel guilt after I ejaculater, but not anymore, it is not a sin, its a natrual thing that was made by God.

But I am still leery about adult entertainment, what do you think?
 
As long as you don't lust, or commit adultery, you are fine. If you have a wet dream are you sinning, if you bust a nut by accident it was merely that, don't think anything of it, remember you're only a man, you may fall down occasionally but god does'nt mind, what matters to him is if you get up after falling. Hope I helped, and good luck by the way.
 
God love a man who helps himself.

If he gave you a small dick and you help yourself get a big one, he can't complain aslong as you dont rape anyone or knock someone out with it.
 
I too was guilty of masturbating to adult entertainment for the years that I did. In essence, now that I Penis Enlargement, I don't masturbate to adult entertainment in the same way that I did. I don't do it to get "off" anymore or to lust after women. I simply use it as a mechanism to get aroused in order to improve myself. :)
 
So is it a sin? I am not lusting after the adult entertainment its just a way to help me get into it with girth work, like edging and jelqing.
 
You do have to keep in mind that pornography, even if you don't lust after it (which I would find very difficult not to do), gives you a loss of innocence. I'm not married yet and I'm still a virgin, but my gal knows I've looked at adult entertainment in the past and she knows that if we get married I will have seen other nude women. A woman cannot help but compare herself to other women, especially if she feels a threat. And she will feel threatened by the women in pornography. She will feel very inferior to them physically. I mean, what woman wouldn't feel inferior compared to Jenna Jameson? I want to protect what little naivete I have left and I also want to protect her emotions. I hear tons of stories of pornography ruining marriages and that's the last thing I want!

It's awesome to see that there are other Christians on this site though. I'll be praying for my Penis Enlargement brothers!

John
 
i agree with 9. i can't say i always stick to that, but looking at adult entertainment does separate me from Christ. but you are not alone on this board and i think that the two can definitely co-exist. it's similar to working out, just try not to let it become an idol for you.
 
Wisdom, my friends. If you can improve yourself through something good you've learned that will make your life more worthwhile for you, then I believe you should go for it.

-ItsElectric

*Moved this thread to the Deep Thoughts section*
 
Originally posted by ItsElectric
Wisdom, my friends. If you can improve yourself through something good you've learned that will make your life more worthwhile for you, then I believe you should go for it.

Co-Sign
 
I do need to seperate myself from adult entertainment completely. Does got not say in the Bible that it is wrong?
 
Dude it doesnt matter what the Bible says. It says a lot of crazy things. But to think that masturbation or pre-marital sex or Penis Enlargement is somehow against God's will, is just dumb.

All that matters is that you are a good, decent human being. Im tired of people talking about the "sanctitiy" of marriage. Like its is SO sacred.

But nobody addresses the fact that 50% of men cheat, and 30% of woman cheat, and about 50% of all marriages end in divorce.

But in a nutshell, God dosent care if you Penis Enlargement, or whack-off or forget to rewind or whatever.
 
Hold on NeXuS. I'm trying to keep it Biblical here, and the Bible says that sex isn't to be enjoyed outside of marriage, since the two were made to go hand in hand. I understand you may not be a Christian, and I am not going to try and convert you here, but this thread was intended to be for Christians already Penis Enlargementing and Christians wondering if they can Penis Enlargement at all without sinning. Marriage IS "SO" sacred. The fact that 50% of men cheat and 30% of women cheat means precisely dick. I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of those 50% of marriages that end in divorce should not have been started anyway. But yeah, busting a nut in and of itself is not a sin. Porno, on the other hand, induces lustful thoughts and it is a sin. It does say in the Bible that lust is sin, and Pornography is just a way of feeding lust. It is not necessary in order to blow a load, as that type of a reaction can be triggered in response to purely physical stimuli as well. It may actually be better to masturbate than to go in search of women to fulfill the need for that experience. The benefit there would be that the women=sex thing would not be as much of a factor, and people would be able to love their women more honestly. There is a possibility that masturbation can become an addiction, and that must not happen. Christianity teaches that we are saved by Christ, and thus we are wearing clean, spotless robes (as a figure of speech to mean that we appear clean) when we come into His presence. Christ was sent to have the final victory so that even sinful man might be able to stand in that victory and satisfy the condition of holiness that must exist for a person to go near God (to heaven). That right there is the significance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, on the side, how 'bout those Uli's?
 
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Originally posted by buz

There is a spot in one of the Old Testament books where this one guy Onan had a social and cultural responsibility to do this one guy’s wife because if he did not, there would be no heir to a large amount of property and goods, or perhaps an entire kingdom. However, Onan pulled out and “spilled his seed” on the ground. Then God struck him down as punisHydromaxent. Many use this as a condemnation of masturbation, but in reality the matter is elsewhere. It wasn’t that Onan spilled “seed”, but that he did so in disobeying God, who had commanded Onan to produce a son who could be an heir to the large amount of property/large sum of money/kingdom. It wasn’t that the guy pulled out and let his load go outside the woman, but that God had commanded for the load to go inside the woman to carry on this one tribe or kingdom.
You said that Onan didn`t sin because he spilled the seed outside, but it was because he was meant to make a woman pregnant. Well, that`s where semen is supposed to go. You shouldn`t spill it outside. Masturbation IS a sin, whatever you`ll say. I don`t mean that I don`t masturbate, but it is a sin.

Penis Enlargement must be also a sin.... Body-building too.... A lot of things must be sins....
Now Penis Enlargement and body-building must be sins because I bet you spend more time and dedication with those that with God through prayer.. And also you should remain the way God left you, because it doesn`t matter your physical appearance, but your soul that isn`t anymore a priority.
I tell you it`s a sin.
But on the other hand you`ll say that if God didn`t want us to Penis Enlargement than He wouldn`t have revealed it to us... But maybe it wasn`t Him that had revealed it to us, if you know what I mean.... Or maybe it was just invented by a man and that`s that.

You probably wonder why the hell do I Penis Enlargement if I know that it`s a sin and I`m still doing it. It sound really stupid... Guess my faith isn`t that strong or maybe I believe that I won`t fulfill myself only by religion... I also have a physical part which I must satisfy.... I looking for a balance I think. Don`t know if it exists....

All that matters is that you are a good, decent human being. Im tired of people talking about the "sanctitiy" of marriage. Like its is SO sacred. But nobody addresses the fact that 50% of men cheat, and 30% of woman cheat, and about 50% of all marriages end in divorce.

Now Nexus, marriage used to be sacred when people believed in God. IF there aren`t people that believe in the holyness binding them togheter through marriage, than who will for them?
If people believed in God they wouldn`t cheat, they wouldn`t steal, they wouldn`t KILL... The world would be perfect... A Holy world......
Now there are more and more non-believers that attract more non-believers to their side...... We`re turning Earth to Hell.....
 
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Now Nexus, marriage used to be sacred when people believed in God. IF there aren`t people that believe in the holyness binding them togheter through marriage, than who will for them?
If people believed in God they wouldn`t cheat, they wouldn`t steal, they wouldn`t KILL... The world would be perfect... A Holy world......
Now there are more and more non-believers that attract more non-believers to their side...... We`re turning Earth to Hell..... [/B]


Didnt the priests believe in God, when they were fucking and molesting boys?

Didnt the guy who killed the abortion doctor in [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]FL[/words], claim he was doing "God's work" by killing the evil baby-killing doctor?

Didnt radical religious fundamentalists crash a fuckin plane into the WTC, because we are currently in a Holy War?

Dont tell me that just because people believe in religion, that the world would be a better place. Because if there was no religion there would be NO terrorism.

I believe in God, but I dont believe in the man-made bureaucracy of religion.

I dont want to get into a religion argument, but I just want to say one thing, religion stops rational common-sense thinking. Do you think God really cares about your sex life? Because I guarantee you "he" dosent. Dont claim to know God, because it is impossible.

If you want proof you can't know God, read Genesis. When Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Get it, Knowledge?

The Bible is saying you CAN'T know God. As a good [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] member told me, you cant make God fit into a box.
 
Didnt the priests believe in God, when they were fucking and molesting boys?
Those priests lost their faith long ago before they sinned... The lust took them over...
Didnt the guy who killed the abortion doctor in [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]FL[/words], claim he was doing "God's work" by killing the evil baby-killing doctor?
You know, murder is a sin because you take the person`s chance to redempt[don`t know if that`s the word] and to ask dor forgiveness. It wasn`t God that lead him to do so.

Didnt radical religious fundamentalists crash a fuckin plane into the WTC, because we are currently in a Holy War?
they were also religious fanatics that mis-interpretteed the holy scripture.

I dont want to get into a religion argument, but I just want to say one thing, religion stops rational common-sense thinking. Do you think God really cares about your sex life? Because I guarantee you "he" dosent. Dont claim to know God, because it is impossible.
Religion doesn`t stop you from thinking. if you act otherwise than what religion is telling you your behaviour is a self-destructive one. self-destructive -->irrational
God cares about our well-being. That is why there is the Holy Providence [don`t know if that`s the translation].
Sex is a material thing... You shouldn`t have sex for pleasure, but in order to multiply.
If you want proof you can't know God, read Genesis. When Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Get it, Knowledge?
Are you saying that Knowlege is always in your benefit?
I can think of many things that I wish the manking didn`t know.
I own`t deny the benefits of knowledge, but the world we live in is an immoral one that uses science against God and therefore against itself.
Oh, you meant that God is keept you in the dark you form knowing Him by not leting you taste the apple?
I believe you are mis-interpretting too...
That "knowledge" is what was beyond the innocence in which human was created... I mean Sin...

The Bible is saying you CAN'T know God. As a good [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] member told me, you cant make God fit into a box.
I didn`t claim that I know God, but I do feel Him.
 
Omul, im not sure if by bodybuilding you mean working out in general or the prideful obsession with your own looks. That is the point where, in my opinion, bodybuilding could be a sin, if you were basically worshipping yourself and putting yourself before God. Doing it for your health is not wrong, and to think it is wrong is too legalistic. God hates legalism, He is more concerned about your heart and mind. Its no longer wrong to eat pork and other old testament rules like it no longer apply. but at the same time if you lust after a woman in your head, it is just as bad as commiting adultery with her.

In my opinion, Penis Enlargement becomes sinful if it is self-worship, habitual, or involves sexual sin.

After the original post, im not sure about masturbation as a sin, i thought it was a type of fornication.
 
In my opinion, Penis Enlargement becomes sinful if it is self-worship, habitual, or involves sexual sin.

How can Penis Enlargement be any different?
Penis Enlargement IS a habbit
Penis Enlargement involves sexual sin, sooner or later because this is the main purpose you Penis Enlargement, right? To fix up your lack of sexuality.
Penis Enlargement can be self-worshiping if you are thinking more of your penile size than you are of your soul, but after all I think you shouldn`t think of Penis Enlargement at all

And it is OK in my opinion to bodybuild in order to keep fit.
 
Originally posted by Omul_Paianjen
How can Penis Enlargement be any different?
Penis Enlargement IS a habbit
Penis Enlargement involves sexual sin, sooner or later because this is the main purpose you Penis Enlargement, right? To fix up your lack of sexuality.
Penis Enlargement can be self-worshiping if you are thinking more of your penile size than you are of your soul, but after all I think you shouldn`t think of Penis Enlargement at all

And it is OK in my opinion to bodybuild in order to keep fit.

Penis Enlargement is not an addictive habit unless you let it one. I could quit Penis Enlargement right now and not worry about it. And Penis Enlargement involves no sexual sin. One's purpose with Penis Enlargement may be to be able to get as many women in the bed as possible, but it is not the Penis Enlargement that is wrong. It is the extramarital sex. But yes, Penis Enlargement can become self-worship. Our job is not to let it.

I agree with whomever it was that said we shouldn't be legalistic. Remember what Paul said: "All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial."

I agree with that. Penis Enlargement is ok with God. Working out is definitely ok with God. Your body is a temple. Strive to make it a good temple. Just don't let it consume you.

For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. I Timothy 4:8

It isn't about being allowed or not being allowed. It's about making a choice that will bring Him glory. Would you do it if Christ were in the room beside you? Then do it.

John
 
Religion should never become such a mainstay in your life that it should make you question whether or not to partake in something that will make you feel better about yourself as a person. If you are not happy with your body, and there is a means to change it then there should be nothing standing between you and the necessary changes.

My views on sin are somewhat skewed, as I don't actively practice any religion whatsoever, but here's my take on the situation: the idea of sin shouldn't be concrete, it should be ever evolving like the world we live in. Something that was viewed as a sin when Jesus was giving sermons to the peoples of the ancient world shouldn't necessarily be considered a sin now. There are of course obvious exceptions, such as murder, but minor acts such as premarital sex shouldn't be frowned upon in this day and age. There are far more serious things to worry about then whether or not the girl you're fornicating with is wearing a wedding band.

Again, religion should never come between you and your striving to make yourself a better, more complete person. If you feel that Penis Enlargement can help you gain a better self image and higher self esteem, then I can't see how God would possibly hold that against you. I'd wager to say that Saint Peter will meet you at the pearly gates and ask you for some pointers on how he can enlarge his penis as well.
 
Originally posted by 9cyclops9
Penis Enlargement is not an addictive habit unless you let it one. I could quit Penis Enlargement right now and not worry about it. And Penis Enlargement involves no sexual sin. One's purpose with Penis Enlargement may be to be able to get as many women in the bed as possible, but it is not the Penis Enlargement that is wrong. It is the extramarital sex. But yes, Penis Enlargement can become self-worship. Our job is not to let it.

I agree with whomever it was that said we shouldn't be legalistic. Remember what Paul said: "All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial."

I agree with that. Penis Enlargement is ok with God. Working out is definitely ok with God. Your body is a temple. Strive to make it a good temple. Just don't let it consume you.

For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. I Timothy 4:8

It isn't about being allowed or not being allowed. It's about making a choice that will bring Him glory. Would you do it if Christ were in the room beside you? Then do it.

John

we have very similar beliefs
 
Originally posted by Omul_Paianjen

Penis Enlargement IS a habbit
Penis Enlargement involves sexual sin, sooner or later because this is the main purpose you Penis Enlargement, right? To fix up your lack of sexuality.

im saying when it involves sexual sin pertaining to lusting through adult entertainment, or encourages premarital sex. If it is done to improve sex had in marriage, its not wrong.

the bodybuilding thing was addressed to someone who though bodybuilding was a sin, not you omul.
 
I might have guessed that people might ignore the fact that this thread is intended towards Christians wondering if Penis Enlargement requires them to sacrifice their walk with God in orger to improve their body in that way and start taking over with atheist and "who gives a f---" talk. Again, I'll say it: This thread is for Christians who are wondering if they can pursue Penis Enlargement without sacrificing their Christian walk.

I see while I've been gone, you guys have left me with a rather full plate. Since these are things that have to be dealt with sooner or later, I guess I will go ahead and start from the beginningand work my way through.

Omul_Paianjen:

Here's the deal with Onan: God intended for Onan to put his seed into the woman for the specific purpose of producing an heir to all that stuff. The real idea here is that he even acted as though he was going to obey God, until the very last second, where Onan defied God's very command by spilling the seed on the ground instead. Don't mistake the special, specific case of Onan to apply to general cases of masturbation, because masturbation is not even what's really at issue here. I guess I can't really convince you, Omul, if you've got this attitude of "my assumptions are correct, no matter what you say", that masturbation in and of itself is not a sin, but I have already researched this (that's right, these aren't just my assumptions) and found a multitude of articles from extremely reputable and knowlegeable Christian apologists that agree with me, if that changes anything. I could list them here if you're interested in checking them over for yourself.

As far as self-improvement in and of itself being a sin, I would just have to say that is not right because God didn't ever get that specific. He said "do whatever you do for the glory of God", not "If you're doing anything except praying, you're probably sinning." If you can do what you do for the glorification of God, then that is the way it should be done. Quite honestly, I feel sorry for you if you feel that God has you so totally under his thumb that you must only ever pray. Right now, I'm talking in the context of the God of the Bible. I don't know what the Qur'an says about that sort of thing, and right now it doesn't matter that much to me, because this thread is targeted towards matters pertaining to Christians.

NeXuS:

I might have guessed you would bring up the whole Catholic priest thing, as it seems to be a weapon of choice for many atheists when they're looking ot make some meaningless arguments by outrage to try and stir up an angry mob against God. Not like it makes any difference - God is God, no matter what those few priests did, and God's position as master and ruler of the universe is not threatened by the deviant acts of a few mere men. It does not even affect the credibility of the Bible, just the Catholic church in its own interpretations.

The Abortion Guy: Again, another argument by outrage. And again, it makes no difference. People have done some stupid, stupid things in the name of God. This happens when man mixes earthly philosophy with the holy philosophies of God: you get a philosophy that is not completely holy, because it has an unholy element in it. Does that necessarily mean that God delights in or sanctions the use of murder? Certainly not! God has defined murder as sin, and he is not about to let it slide when that man comes to judgement (unless the guy has truly repented) becasue the Bible says God has no favorites in judgement. Again, God certainly does not sanction the use of sinful measures to achieve a desired end!

9/11 Hijackers: Do not try to pin the sins of people who aren't even Christian on Christianity itself. I would invite you to show me the Bible verse or verses where God condones such acts of terrorism, and I will show you why you have taken them out of context. (On the other hand, I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to find the Quranic verses where their god writes that they are to spread Islam through the use of military force.)

God apparently cares enough about how we live our sex lives to lay down some very clear rules in the Bible for how we are to live them.

"Don't claim to know God, because it is impossible": It IS possible to know God, to know his character and nature, by accepting His gift of salvation, by reading His Word (that's the Bible, btw) and by praying and living godly lives as prescribed by the Bible. That is HOW we come to know God, and tell me this: Do not people read the Bible to learn about God's nature? Have not people accepted Christ's gift of salvation and become changed as a result (in ways they could not have hoped to otherwise)? Do not people follow God's rules to improve their own lives, and does not it work with positive effect? Do not people pray, expressing themselves to God? I advise that you give a little more thought to this before you think that you can just say that it is impossible, and take a moment to notice those who are already doing it, becoming closer to His nature in the way they live their lives. You apparently have never truly tried with the right heart and spirit, and that is why you do not think it can be done - because you tried to do it your way and failed, and you can do EVERYTHING, right? Yet that is one of the very principles of man's relationship with God: if we actually hope for our relationship to be successful, we CAN'T try to continue on doing things our own way, but must begin to do things God's way (that is to say that we must strive to live godly lives). As for the Genesis tree... no, I DON'T get it. Man got knowledge of right and wrong, becoming like God in that way. That's when we went from following one simple rule (don't eat from the tree) to having to follow a thousand more complicated ones! The whole deal with the Genesis tree is that by eating from it, we sinned against god, becoming unholy in his sight (being cast out from the Garden). In order to know God, we suddenly had to know things that we, being merely human, cannot possibly know, and that is why it took the sacrifice of Christ to be as payment for the wrongs (sin) that are done when we as men fail to know God. The wrongs that are done when we fail to fully know God make us unholy in His sight and thus unable to go near him (since one of the conditions of holiness is that no sin can be near it, and thus near God.) but Christ's death served as payment for those sins and the end result is that our debts are paid and we can have the relationship with God that we did in the Garden of Eden - that relationship that we were made for.

Sorry dude, but facts is facts.

Omul: I agree with what you say about how doing things that are self-distructive is not only an example of irrational thought, but the very essence of what it means for a thought to be irrational.

I also like what I think you are trying to say when you say that sometimes knowledge is not always in our benefit. As we acquire knowledge, there are pieces of the puzzle that can't yet be fit because there are other pieces that must be found first. We must never make the assumption that simply because the pieces can't be fit right off the bat that the same pieces can't ever be fit. I especially like how you describe what it meant to have the knowledge that came with the metaphor of eating the apple. God had the knowledge of what was beyond innocence, and once man had that knowledge, it was at that point that man acquired the ability to sin.

AncientChina:

I agree with your views on pornography. I'm trying to say that, while it is sinful, it is also unnecessary to achieve the ends we are seeking. What I don't agree with is your claim that God sets different standards for everyone. Those things that have been defined in the Bible as sin are indeed sin. It doesn't vary from Bible to Bible. It doesn't even vary from translation to translation. At any rate, ejaculation really doesn't hurt anyone, but lust does.

I hear a lot of what is quite frankly "pissing and moaning" about Christians "imposing their morality" on other people, but you should consider this case: A person I know that is part of Campus Crusade for Christ was following up on some cards that people had filled out where they had checked the box where they would like to talk with someone. The guy I know went to this other guy's dorm to follow up on this, and he started talking with the other guy. Then the other guy said, "I'm fine with Christians, but I draw the line when people start imposing their morality on me." The guy I know said OK and got up to leave, but as he left, he grabbed a boom box that was sitting on a nearby shelf. The kid he had been talking to was like, "hey, you can't do that" but the guy I know is fairly built and physically capable and he said "What do you mean, I can't? Haven't I already done it? I mean, I already have it in my hands, don't I?" and then the other guy was like, "It's stealing, and that's wrong". To that, the guy I know responded "Well, I feel that this radio would be extremely helpful to my ministry, so I think I'll take it with me, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't try to impose your morality on me." Then the kid offered to sit down ant talk some more, and they talked for a long time and the end result was that the kid saw the Light and came to Christ in prayer.

Slayman:

Yeah, I agree. When bodybuilding becomes an addiction or obsession in and of itself, that is where it is dangerous, and no longer glorifying to God, because it is no longer the intention of the person to glorify God by the improvement of the self but simply to improve the self. That is when it becomes and matter of pride, and thus becomes sin. I once shared your view of masturbation as fornication, but after reading the articles, I have seen that such is not exactly the case. Fornication involves another, and him that masturbates lustfully is indeed committing fornication, though. That is the big distinction to be made here. It would appear that your heart is in the right place when it comes to all this.

Omul:

Here it seems that you take a very narrowed view of Penis Enlargement. Penis Enlargement can be used, as I have already stated, to improve the sexual relationship between a man and his wife. In that case it is NOT sinful because God Himself gave us the command to be fruitful and multiply, and then He gave us the instructions on how it was intended to be enjoyed. When we were in the Garden of Eden, we just naturally did the Godly thing, but once we knew what the alternatives were, we had to be given the instruction manual to know how to "drive" our lives or else this planet would be just a big stink-hole (as it appears to be becoming with the increased apostasy in the world.) As for how Penis Enlargement would be beneficial in the sexual relationship, it keeps the woman satisfied in bed, so she does not feel temped to go in search of that satisfaction elsewhere (with other, bigger men) and commit adultery. It helps keep your wife faithful to you, and increases your sense of devotion to your wife. Are those not right things?

Or, you could just read what 9cyclops9 said, because he basically makes all the right points here.

oopapercutoo: Your post shows you think a lot like my atheist grandfather, but this sort of moral relativism has no logical result other than to send us down the slippery slope until the only sins that are left defined as sin are those that are the most convenient to keep, like murder, stealing, and adultery. Make a valid argument otherwise.

As far as feeling better as a person, that's what God wants for us, and he has given us the tools to achieve that in the Bible. We achieve our greatest sense of purpose and fulfillment by living for God in the things that we do. God has given us rules that help us live in harmony in a bigger society than what our eyes can see.

As far as the Saint Peter bit goes, I doubt that would even be in his mind, as there is no need for sex in heaven. Greater pleasure (if you can fathom that) will be found in worshipping God as we were made to.

Man, that took a while. I think I've more or less covered everything. Take your best shot.
 
oopapercutoo: Your post shows you think a lot like my atheist grandfather, but this sort of moral relativism has no logical result other than to send us down the slippery slope until the only sins that are left defined as sin are those that are the most convenient to keep, like murder, stealing, and adultery. Make a valid argument otherwise.

As far as feeling better as a person, that's what God wants for us, and he has given us the tools to achieve that in the Bible. We achieve our greatest sense of purpose and fulfillment by living for God in the things that we do. God has given us rules that help us live in harmony in a bigger society than what our eyes can see.

As far as the Saint Peter bit goes, I doubt that would even be in his mind, as there is no need for sex in heaven. Greater pleasure (if you can fathom that) will be found in worshipping God as we were made to.

Man, that took a while. I think I've more or less covered everything. Take your best shot.

For your information, buz, I'm not an atheist. I'm a heretic. I don't believe in organized religion. The question of whether or not there is a god is one that is to be left up to individuals, so I'm not going to attempt to sway someone's opinion on that matter.

It seems to me that you have little faith in your fellow man, judging by the comments in your posts. I completely disagree with what you said about people attempting to do away with all sin except for those that are absolute (murder, adultery, etc.). A persons ethics and sense or morality does not arise as much from religious devotion as it does from that person's upbringing.

Do farmers use the same techniques to tend their fields as were employed in ancient Mesopotamia? No. Technology has advanced in our ever-evolving world. Why should religion, and subsequently views of what does and doesn't constitute a sin not do the same?

The Saint Peter thing was a joke, but you apparently didn't realize that. Maybe it wasn't in the best taste, considering the differing amounts of religious devotion that exists between members of the forum, but you shouldn't take the statement as anything more then a joke.

I'm not going to get into the statement you made about us being designed to worship god, as that is very thin ice to skate on with such a diverse group of people. I will however say that for you to try and say that people aren't allowed to post in your topic because they don't share the same religious views as you is selfish and asinine. In order to get the best possible answer for your question, you should definately take into consideration everyone's opinion regardless of their religious beliefs.
 
Penis Enlargement is not an addictive habit unless you let it one. I could quit Penis Enlargement right now and not worry about it. And Penis Enlargement involves no sexual sin. One's purpose with Penis Enlargement may be to be able to get as many women in the bed as possible, but it is not the Penis Enlargement that is wrong. It is the extramarital sex. But yes, Penis Enlargement can become self-worship. Our job is not to let it.
Cyclops, you say that you can quit Penis Enlargement right now.. I bet you can`t do that like any of us can`t...
Are you saying that by having all the extramarital sex you can get you aren`t sinning? I believe there are limits in extramarital sex as well...
Penis Enlargement IS self-worshiping... You need a whole lot of dedication.... Where do you think that is coming from? As I said, I bet you do not pray as much time as you Penis Enlargement.

It isn't about being allowed or not being allowed. It's about making a choice that will bring Him glory. Would you do it if Christ were in the room beside you? Then do it.
Would you? I think you would be ashamed...

im saying when it involves sexual sin pertaining to lusting through adult entertainment, or encourages premarital sex. If it is done to improve sex had in marriage, its not wrong.
Yes, I think so.. But once you are married, you don`t care as much about your sexuality and your life becomes the same every day....
I really don`t think this is the reason why any of us here Penis Enlargements. Maybe the married guys, but the rest I don`t think so.

the bodybuilding thing was addressed to someone who though bodybuilding was a sin, not you omul.

Maybe I sonded a little fanatic slayman, but what I meant is not let the physical health be on the 1st place... It should be the mental health and the peace of mind. I`m not against a healthy life, I totaly argee with the concept, but in the both ways, mentally and physically.

Here's the deal with Onan: God intended for Onan to put his seed into the woman for the specific purpose of producing an heir to all that stuff. The real idea here is that he even acted as though he was going to obey God, until the very last second, where Onan defied God's very command by spilling the seed on the ground instead. Don't mistake the special, specific case of Onan to apply to general cases of masturbation, because masturbation is not even what's really at issue here. I guess I can't really convince you, Omul, if you've got this attitude of "my assumptions are correct, no matter what you say", that masturbation in and of itself is not a sin, but I have already researched this (that's right, these aren't just my assumptions) and found a multitude of articles from extremely reputable and knowlegeable Christian apologists that agree with me, if that changes anything. I could list them here if you're interested in checking them over for yourself.

Maybe God intends semen to be put in women and not spilled on the ground...
I believe that I`m quite open-minded as I am still very young, I`m sorry if you think that is my attitude...
A friend of mine went to church to confess his sins and the priest asked him if he had satisifed himself. My friend said yes and the priest told him"isn`t that cute? but it`s WRONG" :)
No, I was kidding, he told him not to do so because it is a sin.



Quite honestly, I feel sorry for you if you feel that God has you so totally under his thumb that you must only ever pray.
What are you talking about, man? God having me under His thumb?
Quite honestly, as yourself, I think that you sound exactly like the atheists that you don`t want to post on this thread. You should feel sorry for yourself, not for me.
If you think religion is a burden and you shouldn`t really respect it , than maybe this is why we have different points of views...
I intend on keeping mine and not because I don`t accept other opints of views, but because I believe mine is the best for me so far.

He said "do whatever you do for the glory of God", not "If you're doing anything except praying, you're probably sinning."
THere are more ways than nly praying to please God.. You could stop sinning and you probably wouldn`t sin.


Here it seems that you take a very narrowed view of Penis Enlargement. Penis Enlargement can be used, as I have already stated, to improve the sexual relationship between a man and his wife. In that case it is NOT sinful because God Himself gave us the command to be fruitful and multiply, and then He gave us the instructions on how it was intended to be enjoyed. When we were in the Garden of Eden, we just naturally did the Godly thing, but once we knew what the alternatives were, we had to be given the instruction manual to know how to "drive" our lives or else this planet would be just a big stink-hole (as it appears to be becoming with the increased apostasy in the world.) As for how Penis Enlargement would be beneficial in the sexual relationship, it keeps the woman satisfied in bed, so she does not feel temped to go in search of that satisfaction elsewhere (with other, bigger men) and commit adultery. It helps keep your wife faithful to you, and increases your sense of devotion to your wife. Are those not right things?
You said that "Penis Enlargement would be beneficial in the sexual relationship, it keeps the woman satisfied in bed, so she does not feel temped to go in search of that satisfaction elsewhere (with other, bigger men) and commit adultery."
Sorry for quoting twice I needed to see what you posted..
If a woman commmits adultery, it`s her sin. You are not in any way responsible for what she does. She has her own mind and mabye the woman you will/are married to would believe in God she wouldn`t be thinking of other men.
If she thinks that at one moment that you are not fit for her, than why didn`t she think so in the first place?
Let`s avoid the exceptions as this discussion is complicated enough and there are many members posting here.
You should look for a soul-mate, not the sexiest woman and she should do the same.
 
I am talking about religion as a whole. Not singling out a specific one, but in my view, the most damaging religion out there is Islam. I think Christianity is one of the least damaging, because as a country, we've learned to ignore our religious leaders and our Puritan past.

Just say the magic word, "religion", and you can get away or justify anything. The abortion killer justified it, by saying that that God hates abortion, so therefore hates an abortion doctor. The Muslims get away with beekeepers suits and killing in the name of Jihad and Allah.

I'll say it again, I DO believe in God, I just don't believe in the man-made bureaucracy of religion.

Why do you believe these people who say they know what happens when you die? I promise, their brains are no more bigger or better or smarter than yours, but you still believe them anyways.

What if you were to be born in a little African village, and you never knew of God, or Christianity? Are you automatically condemned to hell because you didn't goto church or didn't know of Jesus??

There was a new study done showing that sex is actually healthy in many, many ways. Regular sex reduces chance for depression, prostate cancer, blood pressure, and even a longer lifespan.

This notion that God is against pre-marital sex or adult entertainment, is just stupid. Why wouldn't he want you to be healthy? And why wouldn't he want you to Penis Enlargement, if it made you more confident, happy and healthy??
 
Omul:

I agree that my attempts to keep this thing "Christian" would indeed be asinine IF this was a post talking about masturbation and its acceptability/unacceptability by various world religions in general, but in this thread, from the very start (until this whole argument ruined it) I was taking this solely from a Christian point of view. I wasn't soliciting the opinions of people who don't follow religion to come say that we're a bunch of idiots for believing, plain and simple. I started this thread to answer a question, not start a religious debate.

Extramarital sex: Look in the Bible. Does it convey the message that extramarital sex is sinful? Yes. So it IS sin.

Onan letting his load go outside Tamar (the woman): Does the Bible say that Onan induced himself to "spill seed" on the ground while sitting up in bed one night? No. Onan has been having sex with Tamar, as God had commanded, but before he ejaculated into the woman, he PULLED OUT and it was then that the semen was spread on the ground. Here's an article about why the spilling of the seed in and of itself is not even the thing that is at issue: http://www.tektonics.org/onanbash.html

If you still need me to explain that one, just let me know.

As for being ashamed while Penis Enlargementing, and the "sin" of bodybuilding: It is unlikely that we would have any reason to be ashamed except for our nudity, for even Adam and Eve were ashamed before God in their nudity. I am a fat person. Would I be sinning if I tried to lose weight and improve my form by exercising (and work against the slow metabolism God gave me)? Certainly not, because the verse that calls our body God's temple carries the connotation that we are not supposed to let our bodies go to waste if they are going to waste. It's not about leaving things as they are. Instead, it is about overcoming limitations. My limitation is my slow metabolism. A man with an unacceptably short penis may work against that limitation and make his body better. Anyone, doing anything in the world, needs dedication in order to do it. I would not hire someone to work for me who had your attitude towards dedication. Instead, we are to glorify god with our dedication to doing right things. (not wrong things, BTW, but right things, as defined by the Bible.)

As far as you comments toward my philosophy of making it less likely that a spouse would commit adultery, and it being "her" sin: It is true that it is her sin, but would we drive her to sin by not fixing the things about ourselves that are causing her dissatisfaction? There is also the sin of neglect, where one knows something is right to do, yet does not. Should we, by our neglect, make it harder for the woman not to succumb to her own humanly weaknesses (which all humanity has)? You might be her true husband, but she might be motivated to lust after other guys than you, and then even act on that lust.

Are you a member of the Church of Christ? The very same arguments that you make against masturbation being acceptable (when it is not done in the sin of lust) are the same arguments that the Church of Christ (which many have described as a cult) makes against the use of music as an acceptable form of worship to the God of the Bible. this type of argument constitutes the Argument by Silence: "It doesn't say you can't but it doesn't expressly say you can." It is likely that God cares just as much if you bust a nut as he cares if you explode a zit. The difference with masturbation is that it has the potential to be done in lust, in which case the person would have committed the sin of fornication by bringing the other (imagined) person into the picture. For as Jesus said, he that lusts after a person with his own eyes has committed adultery with that person in his heart.

I really don't get what's so hard about this.

The part about the Priest: Priests = the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, as its own organization, has taken up a position on masturbation in general, but it is not a position that is expressly given in the Bible. Didn't you read what I wrote about the Gnostics and how they influenced early Catholic thinking?

As for God having you under his thumb, I was referring to the way that you seem to think that God has imposed all these extra limitations on us, like how bodybuilding (and Penis Enlargement as bodybuilding) is supposedly a sin, even though these other sins you talk about are not defined in the Bible. I would appreciate it if you would explain to me how I am supposedly just like all these atheists who HAVE NO BUSINESS posting on this thread [to begin with]. You just gave me a sound bite, and that's really not a whole lot to go off of, and if I'm really as bad as you say, you ought to tell me, because I shouldn't continue in self-destructive behavior.

Ok, read that article I gave you and call me in the morning.
 
Now I think I'll tackle the NeXuS post.

First off, I'd like you to tell me a way we would honestly be worse off if we DID listen to our religious leaders. The Puritans in their witch hunts were just misguided, and only in that sense I am inclined to agree that in that case, it might have been better not to listen to those leaders. I don't agree with the witch hunts, but they weren't even Biblical. The witch hunts were just the way the Puritans had of dealing with things they feared when they didn't know exactly what they were dealing with. (In that case, it was pagan god worship and a big game of "pretend".) Don't pin the blame for a small, specific group's actions on the entirety of Christian thought.

Next up: "Religion" is not a magic word by which you can justify any action, as you say. I think you'd be surprised just how far you would have to go to actually justify an action by religion. You would have to prove that your actions are approved or condoned by the holy text of your particular religion. And then you have to show how it's not just an arbitrary thing, but all of humanity can benefit from an action like that. And then you would have to give equal airtime to other religious experts to see if they agree or disagree. Things in the Bible aren't assigned arbitrarily; there are distinct reasons why sins are defined as such. Lust changes our perceptions of other people, generally for the worse, because we now view them as a sex object. Premarital or extramarital sex steals a person's innocence, which is what gives marriage so much meaning: that two people have been waiting their whole life saving themselves for each other.

You say you believe in God, yet you do not believe in religion, which you call man-made. What, then, defines your faith if there is no specific revelation? You see that there is light in the room, and you know light comes from a source, but you cannot see exactly where the light is coming from. You see that there are patterns of organization in the univers which might suggest a maker, but how do you know for sure that there is indeed a maker if you cannot bring yourself to accept any specific revelation attributing creation to a specific Maker because you have already declared every specific revelation to be man-made? I'd appreciate if you'd explain this one to me, as it has had me stymied for a long time.

The brains of the people writing the books could be the size of watermelons, but without some sort of revelation there would still be no way for man to concieve of heaven or hell or an infinite God. This is because the infinite incorporates the finite, not the other way around. You cannot put infinity inside any sort of boundaries, such as the boundary of human perception, or else it could no longer be called infinity. But the revelations of God (and I'm not just talking the Book of Revelation) are given so that we may know that God is there, so that we may have some description of things that are beyond perception. And of course, this argument you make (that I am believing something concieved by men) is based on an assumption (that what is written in the Bible is concieved by men). But you haven't yet made a convincing argument to justify this assumption.

That a child in an African settlement (pity party, anyone?) does not yet know of Christ is not the fault of God, but of man's failure to satisfy the Great Commission ("Go and make disciples (believers) of all nations," and all that jazz). You could go on and blame God for putting the responsibility on us as men, but if we would really take the right heart about it, you'd think that we would have already reached the Africans by now, what, being given 2000 years to do it and all..., so my point is that in this case you can't just shift the blame to God and away from yourself (as is the way of worldly men).

On the study about sex: That's great. Good for them. What a great reward to people for getting married!

I think I've already explained why pre-marital sex is not only wrong, but not beneficial to us both as individuals and as a society. (NEW!!! The ORIGINAL, ULTIMATE SYMBOL of COMMITMENT, now WITHOUT the commitment!!! We've also managed to CUT the CONSEQUENCES by 75%!!! Also, if that wasn't enough, you get the carefree assurance of 0% RESPONSIBILITY!!! We think you'll agree: THERE'S NEVER BEEN A BETTER TIME TO BUY IN!!!) And I don't think you'll deny that pornography in and of itself was designed to induce lust, which is a sin, and as has been proven by many a Penis Enlargementer who has achieved ejaculation simply by physical stimuli, totally unnecessary.

Ok, I think I've mostly dealt with that.
 
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Onan letting his load go outside Tamar (the woman): Does the Bible say that Onan induced himself to "spill seed" on the ground while sitting up in bed one night? No. Onan has been having sex with Tamar, as God had commanded, but before he ejaculated into the woman, he PULLED OUT and it was then that the semen was spread on the ground. Here's an article about why the spilling of the seed in and of itself is not even the thing that is at issue: http://www.tektonics.org/onanbash.html

If you still need me to explain that one, just let me know.

When having sex you are supposed to get a woman pregnant.
You are saying it is a sin to spil the seed on the ground while having intercourse, but in the woman,
So wouldn`t it be wrong to spill the seed anyway???
I asume you know that there the cult of the onanists that gather and jerk of in public places and spill the seed on the ground.
They don`t have sex, but they masturbate.
They ONLY masturbate. Why does the church rejects their beliefs?
Because it`s a sin.

Oh, yeah and you gave me a link....
the title of the article was "Was God Unfair to Onan? " by
James Patrick Holding.
I didn`t read it.
I never will because I don`t need to hear the opinion of someone who questions the fairness of God`s decissions.
That person must think he`s better than God. God is perfection.


As for being ashamed while Penis Enlargementing, and the "sin" of bodybuilding: It is unlikely that we would have any reason to be ashamed except for our nudity, for even Adam and Eve were ashamed before God in their nudity. I am a fat person. Would I be sinning if I tried to lose weight and improve my form by exercising (and work against the slow metabolism God gave me)? Certainly not, because the verse that calls our body God's temple carries the connotation that we are not supposed to let our bodies go to waste if they are going to waste. It's not about leaving things as they are. Instead, it is about overcoming limitations. My limitation is my slow metabolism. A man with an unacceptably short penis may work against that limitation and make his body better. Anyone, doing anything in the world, needs dedication in order to do it. I would not hire someone to work for me who had your attitude towards dedication. Instead, we are to glorify god with our dedication to doing right things. (not wrong things, BTW, but right things, as defined by the Bible.)
Maybe if you read my posts and understood what I am saying [not necesarrily accepting, but understanding] you would have read this:
the bodybuilding thing was addressed to someone who though bodybuilding was a sin, not you omul. Maybe I sonded a little fanatic slayman, but what I meant is not let the physical health be on the 1st place... It should be the mental health and the peace of mind. I`m not against a healthy life, I totaly argee with the concept, but in the both ways, mentally and physically.

I would not hire someone to work for me who had your attitude towards dedication.
I`m not for hire
Instead, we are to glorify god with our dedication to doing right things. (not wrong things, BTW, but right things, as defined by the Bible.)
Read my posts and then post

As far as you comments toward my philosophy of making it less likely that a spouse would commit adultery, and it being "her" sin: It is true that it is her sin, but would we drive her to sin by not fixing the things about ourselves that are causing her dissatisfaction? There is also the sin of neglect, where one knows something is right to do, yet does not. Should we, by our neglect, make it harder for the woman not to succumb to her own humanly weaknesses (which all humanity has)? You might be her true husband, but she might be motivated to lust after other guys than you, and then even act on that lust.
You don`t drive her, she is driven by someone esle.
It`s her sin. She should understand the sanctity of marriage and the marry.


Are you a member of the Church of Christ? The very same arguments that you make against masturbation being acceptable (when it is not done in the sin of lust) are the same arguments that the Church of Christ (which many have described as a cult) makes against the use of music as an acceptable form of worship to the God of the Bible. this type of argument constitutes the Argument by Silence: "It doesn't say you can't but it doesn't expressly say you can." It is likely that God cares just as much if you bust a nut as he cares if you explode a zit. The difference with masturbation is that it has the potential to be done in lust, in which case the person would have committed the sin of fornication by bringing the other (imagined) person into the picture. For as Jesus said, he that lusts after a person with his own eyes has committed adultery with that person in his heart. I really don't get what's so hard about this. The part about the Priest: Priests = the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, as its own organization, has taken up a position on masturbation in general, but it is not a position that is expressly given in the Bible. Didn't you read what I wrote about the Gnostics and how they influenced early Catholic thinking?

I`m an Orthodox....

As for God having you under his thumb, I was referring to the way that you seem to think that God has imposed all these extra limitations on us, like how bodybuilding (and Penis Enlargement as bodybuilding) is supposedly a sin, even though these other sins you talk about are not defined in the Bible. I would appreciate it if you would explain to me how I am supposedly just like all these atheists who HAVE NO BUSINESS posting on this thread [to begin with]. You just gave me a sound bite, and that's really not a whole lot to go off of, and if I'm really as bad as you say, you ought to tell me, because I shouldn't continue in self-destructive behavior.
God doesn`t impose limits to us. By saying what is a sin and what isn`t I don`t mean what you cannot do in any form and what you must do. You have free will.
By saying that you are like the ones that you don`t want to post here I meant exactly that.
You can`t say that God has someone at His thumb if you really believe. Therefore you must partially believe.

Ok, read that article I gave you and call me in the morning.

I guess that was supposed to be a joke...... Whatever
 
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"The witch hunts were just the way the Puritans had of dealing with things they feared when they didn't know exactly what they were dealing with."-Buz

That exact same principle can be applied today. Religion is an emotional crutch for people. We still dont KNOW what happens when we die, so we make up fairy tales and wonderful stories about Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve, to make us sleep and feel better.

Do you think God made your metabolism slow?? That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of. If you get a cold, do you not take medicine because it was in God's Devine Plan for you to get sick??

If God cares so much about your metabolism and masturbating, then why do 15,000 children die every day, just because they lack essential things like health care, clean water, food, and medicine??
 
"The witch hunts were just the way the Puritans had of dealing with things they feared when they didn't know exactly what they were dealing with."-Buz That exact same principle can be applied today. Religion is an emotional crutch for people. We still dont KNOW what happens when we die, so we make up fairy tales and wonderful stories about Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve, to make us sleep and feel better.

Hmm... That`s wierd.. I believe in witches also. Think about it.. If there is Good there must be Evil too..
Witches and sorcery do exist even in our days
If you would believe, you would feel different, NeXus...
We don`t know what happens when we die, but you don`t know for sure if there is a God. Maybe if you would reconsider you may God will enlighten you...
And the "stories" in the Bible.. I can`t tell if there were real or not.. I haven`t lived when those events happened/did not happen.
But the Bible should be respected and should not be taken literally.
Supposedly they were invented, they all have a purpose.. to teach us.

Do you think God made your metabolism slow?? That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of. If you get a cold, do you not take medicine because it was in God's Devine Plan for you to get sick??

God didn`t make his metabolism slow, he did by not exercising and eating more maybe. I don`t know your situation, I hope you don`t get offended and I`m only assuming this.
A cold is an earthly thing and medicine is also an earthly thing.
If you have a spiritual disease if you accept God into your soul He will heal you.
However, there have been many people that have been healed form incurable diseases by faith...

If God cares so much about your metabolism and masturbating, then why do 15,000 children die every day, just because they lack essential things like health care, clean water, food, and medicine??

You have free will.. YOU should care about masturbation, NeXus. People are dying. It`s true. But you think death is so awful because you don`t know what`s beyond it. Death is just a step to another thing.
And God cares about you having enough food to survive and assures by the existence of Holy Providence. You have to believe in Him, anyway to recieve it.

I think this is my last post on this thread
 
Stop saying I dont believe in God, because I do. Although I dont necessarily call him God. God is an entity or force or creator. I DO believe in God, just not your bullshit religion.

In reality you dont know which religion is right. If you were born in the Middle East, you'd be a muslim, if your born in America, your a Christian. Its all circumstantial. Just because they've pumped this bullshit into your brain, ever since you were old enough to sit through church.

I dont believe withches and sorcery exist. I leave that to Lord of the Rings and other stories. But why stop there?? Why not zombies, lephrauchans or Santa Claus?

Your living in a superficial dreamworld. I hate this notion that God, is a single-parent, he writes books, and he shakes his fist at evil, abortion, and gays. And heaven is up on clouds with harps and angels. This is such a man-made image, and I hate it when guillable people buy into that crap.

Stop acting like you know God, you act like you live a couple houses down from him and you talk to him on you cell!!
 
You and me both, man! rofl
Stop acting like you know God, you act like you live a couple houses down from him and you talk to him on you cell!!
Especially this part...!! rofl

Very well spoken. I couldn't agree more: the notion that god is a conscious entity who reaches down to individual people and punishes those who sin is just beyond naive. I do believe that once we die we transcend into a different level of existance, one that is outside the boundries of the physical realm, and I also believe in the existance of some sort of a ''god'', but to believe in organized religion would require me to disregard everything that I've learned about the world and the universe so far and replace that with an infantile, gullible and suBathmateissive mindset.

I say, no way! Take your church and *********... :D
My god doesn't demand to be worshipped or even acknowledged as being there. He/she/it just runs the whole shebang and lets the events play out... someone has to do that, after all.
 
Originally posted by Omul_Paianjen

Oh, yeah and you gave me a link....
the title of the article was "Was God Unfair to Onan? " by
James Patrick Holding.
I didn`t read it.
I never will because I don`t need to hear the opinion of someone who questions the fairness of God`s decissions.
That person must think he`s better than God. God is perfection.

Nah, it was meant to be a question that someone else was asking. The author of the article wasn't questioning God's fairness.


NeXus, do not insult me and my beliefs because you are ignorant. I will not tolerate that. I respect your beliefs (but do not agree with them), and you should have the same respect for ours.


And heaven is up on clouds with harps and angels.

Yeah, that part is a manmade image. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest clouds and such. Oh yeah, and Noah''s ark did exist. They found it. This is why I say you are ignorant. You say these things and do not know about them. Show me one valid reason to take your opinion on religion seriously, and I will listen. Show me one time that anything in the Bible has been proven wrong, and I'll pay you a bit of heed. But don't just start spouting off about things you don't know about. You don't want to get into an apologetics fight with me. Let's leave it at that and be friends. No hard feelings at all. ;)

John
 
I know I said that the last post was the final one, but I can`t leave the discussion like this..


I think your post was meant for the both of us.

Stop saying I dont believe in God, because I do. Although I dont necessarily call him God. God is an entity or force or creator. I DO believe in God, just not your bullshit religion.
Your living in a superficial dreamworld. I hate this notion that God, is a single-parent, he writes books, and he shakes his fist at evil, abortion, and gays. And heaven is up on clouds with harps and angels. This is such a man-made image, and I hate it when guillable people buy into that crap.

How can you believe in God without a set of principles??? Or maybe you took the Christian teachings separated what you didn`t like and created your god.
My world is the same as yours. If you wish to ignore some of its elements, that it is your decision.

In reality you dont know which religion is right. If you were born in the Middle East, you'd be a muslim, if your born in America, your a Christian. Its all circumstantial. Just because they've pumped this bullshit into your brain, ever since you were old enough to sit through church.

You are right... I was born a Christian... I went to the church as a kid, not very often beacuse my family is not very religious.
I stopped believing for about 2 years and called myself an atheist.
One day I felt that what I did was wrong and I felt that He exists.
You see, I don`t believe because I was told to... I do because I FEEL so.

I dont believe withches and sorcery exist. I leave that to Lord of the Rings and other stories. But why stop there?? Why not zombies, lephrauchans or Santa Claus?

You don`t believe in God either.

Why not zombies, lephrauchans or Santa Claus?
I think these are man-made.

Stop acting like you know God, you act like you live a couple houses down from him and you talk to him on you cell!!
\
I don`t live a couple of houses down from Him....
He is in my house though... He would be in yours too if you wouldn`t throw Him out.

My god doesn't demand to be worshipped or even acknowledged as being there.
Whatever..... I stopped caring...
 
Omul, look man, my post wasn't meant as a direct response or backlash at the beliefs you've stated, and if it came across that way then I apologize.

I guess I'm sometimes not that good at putting myself in other peoples' shoes...
I just can't accept the existance of a benevolent god who looks after us - for a multitude of reasons, really. Mainly because I have a view of reality that isn't just centered on us humans and earth, but rather on the universe as a whole. The thought that god, after creating something so unfathomably huge as the universe that we live in, would somehow have chosen to single us humans out and take it upon himself to start governing our daily lives down to the minute detail is something I cannot accept. Let's face it, we aren't alone in this universe, and most if not all of the other civilizations of the stars are with high probability much more advanced and intelligent than us.
So, why would god pick us out to be his ''special project''?
THIS is the kind of god that I find cannot have any faith in. A god that is uncannily similar to us humans. No. God must be something far greater than that. Something us humans cannot even begin to comprehend with our very limited cognitive capabilities and understanding.

Also, the fact being that there is so much suffering in the world makes it impossible for me to believe that god really has any influence on our earthly matters.

But, as I already said, I do believe that life is just one phase, after which there is something better. And maybe all of the questions concerning life, death and spirituality will be answered once we leave our physical bodies behind and transcend to the next level.
 
God is so beyond our comprehension. You try to fit him in a box. And for the record I dont throw God out of my house. Your taking this whole religion to Literally.

And for the record, Noah's Ark did not exist. They did not find an ark. There are over thousands and thousands of species of insects and hundreds of types of rodents.

So your telling this old man, got two of every species, and got them to fuck on a boat?? Not to mention the trouble he went through checking their package to see if they were male or female.......
 
Nice post, Shafty..

Thanks buddy!
Yep, we seem to be on the same wavelength on this issue: you, me and Nexus.

BTW, Nexus, quit it man! You're killing me with those replies of yours... rofl rofl rofl
 
You (NeXuS, Shafty) love your ignorance, so who am I to separate you? All I can offer is the knowledge, knowledge you apparently want to deny exists, or have already written off as a fabrication before you have considered it. All you offer in return are sound bites and appeals to pity (poor little african boy) to fuel your arguments by outrage, which are meaningless for reasons I have already explained.

If there is other life in the universe, wouldn't it be right to suppose that God is taking care of them just as He's taken care of us? I don't see why you think that the Bible insists we're the only ones out there. The Bible is just God's revelation of Himself as is pertinent to us as humankind. We have special significance to God in that we are His creation, and I imagine that if there are four-legged, blue-skinned, three-eyed people living on some planet orbiting some distant star, I am certain that God would also place the same sort of significance on them.

NeXuS, I'm sorry to rouse you from your sweet, sweet dream, but you believe in an undefined religion. Plain and simple. You like it that way, because it places you in control. (J.R.R. Tolkien said it best when he said that the race of men desires power above all else.) You get to define what is in and what is out of your personal religion based on what is comfortable and convenient to you. Try and deny it. I could shoot you down again and again. If anyone has put God inside a box it is you because you think that you can decide and define for yourself the elements of God's own nature. It's not a question of rightness but of authority: who are you to say you can know God? You say that God is incomprehensible, yet you are talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say in the same breath that your own idea of what God should be is able to stand against all others and be proven right, thus implying that it IS possible to know. However, it is you who are in the dream world. You cannot influence the reality of God and His nature (which can only offer justice for the unsaved, and that is Hell, but the saved shall recieve mercy, grace, and eternal life) any more than I can influence the chemical properties of Aluminum. If you have anything at all, it is the understanding that there are things that are beyond human comprehension. But that is all you have (having rejected every specific revelation and thus being forced to resort to your own imagination, your "internal resources" as the atheists like to call them, to define your god), and when you are judged, I am sure you will regret your selfish attitude toward God ("if I can't define Him, I will deny Him."). You have rejected all else that can convince you otherwise. I am sure you'll attack this as "the same fire and brimstone preaching [you've] come to expect, unfailingly, from Christians of all stripes" but what can a mere human such as myself do but become frustrated when society has abandoned all logical reasoning and thinking? Your head is in the sand. Admit it. That you refuse to absorb any of the knowledge I have offered is concrete proof of this fact. When will you learn that arrogance and condescension is not a substitute for rational thinking? Probably never. I have done all I can. It profits me nothing more in Heaven or on Earth to continue this argument.

That's right. I am leaving this debate. Not because my position is "irrational" or because "the cracks are starting to show" or anything of the like. I'm sure we could go on debating this until they can't mine any more coal to burn in the power plants, but I shall not let Satan trap me here and keep me from usefulness elsewhere. You may have more air in your lungs than I do but my real, defined God can beat up the imagined, fake god that your confused imagination has pieced toether. You have not necessarily won this argument. I have simply decided to stop arguing. Throughout the years, Christianity has continued to stand on its own merits even though it is persecuted and resisted from all directions. The only explanation I can offer for this persecution is that this world recognizes and accepts its own (that which has been concieved by men), and naturally rejects that which is foreign (which, in this case, is anything that is truly from God, since this world has by its own free will shut Him out). One might even be able to say that this is the significance of crucifixion as the method of Christ's execution: crucifixion was reserved for foreigners. If I must walk as a foreigner in this world of hate then I will. I can do nothing less for my Lord.

BTW: I know what I know about the person and nature of my God only because He felt that it was important that He reveal Himself to the world. Everything I have ever said about God's nature has come directly from the study of His divinely-inspired Word, by which he continues in the present day to reveal Himself to anyone willing to lend an ear for a little while. I am not making this stuff up as I go along. (This may be news to some of you.)
 
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"That you refuse to absorb any of the knowledge I have offered is concrete proof of this fact."

Its funny that your "concrete facts" are nothing more than myth and speculation.

"if I can't define Him, I will deny Him"

How many time do I gotta say it?? I dont deny God by any means. I deny man's attempt to figure out God.

"but I shall not let Satan trap me here and keep me from usefulness elsewhere"

Are you implying that I'm the devil?rofl

"my real, defined God can beat up the imagined, fake god that your confused imagination has pieced toether"

My God can kick your God's Ass!! I used to say this kinda stuff to my friends when we'd compare who's dad could kick who's ass.
:fight:

Dont leave!! Havent you listened to System of a Down? The Devil is so Lovely.......
 
"Its funny that your "concrete facts" are nothing more than myth and speculation. "

Nothing but sound bites. No examples, even. I still haven't seen you back this up with any resonable amount of logical firepower.

(two can play at this game. :blahblah:)

"How many time do I gotta say it?? I dont deny God by any means. I deny man's attempt to figure out God."

I guess I should thank you for making my job easy here. It seems that you've got Him pretty well figured out, so come on. Tell me you're not saying by this that you (a man, I would suppose) have figured out God? That you yourself have comprehended his existence and nature independently of any outside influence (including specific revelations, all of which you have already dismissed as "man-made") and thus, all on your own, quantified infinity! (That's a metaphor for that which you accuse me of, "putting God inside a box", by the way.)

What I mean to say by this is that you claim to believe in God yet you reject all influence from every specific revelation so the only way you could know about God or believe in Him is if you yourself were able to percieve, all on your own, His existence or comprehend, all on your own, His nature. If you say you do not believe in religious truth, then you have already defeated yourself because you yourself have already expressed a religious truth.

:bouncings:

And THAT'S the game, folks! rofl

FYI, I never put God inside a box. I did not open the Bible and find God Himself. I found a revelation of Him, where He made Himself known to US as humankind. After all, since we cannot reach out to him, he would have to reach in to us. (This is because the infinite incorporates the finite, not the other way around, as I have ALREADY stated. )
:s

Continuing on...

"Are you implying that I'm the devil?"

This is a reasonable question for someone as not-in-the-know as you. The Bible tells us that there is an enemy of our souls (which we call Satan, or "Adversary"). The Enemy seeks to make Christians as ineffectual as possible, and while I do not believe that you yourself are the Devil, the Devil can try and cause me to be weak against argument, to constantly be drawn in to arguments, and to love argument so much that there would be nothing else I'd rather do than while away my days arguing with people who are so dug-in at their position that I cannot hope to move them. After all, it has been said that the only result of argument is that each party walks away more convinced than ever that they themselves are right.

"my real, defined God can beat up the imagined, fake god that your confused imagination has pieced toether"

Ok, I actually said this. I am responding in order to clarify. This is to say that if left to argue, I will probably be able to show just how lacking in real substance your concept of God really is, because you have no authority to define God's nature. But I really need to stop this and move on in my life. All I can do is pray for you, that God might be able to provide the experience or series of experiences that brings you to finally understand.

And the real mistake here is letting System Of A Down teach you everything you know about religion. There is some meaning, though, to their statement "the Devil is so lovely". The enemy of our souls pretty much has free reign over many people's lives because he has managed to convince them that the idea of some Devil who flies around and appears in a poof of flame on someone's shoulder and whispers stuff in their ear is utterly laughable, and has managed to get people to draw the conclusion from that that he doesn't exist. Once the Enemy manages to do that, how can a person know any better as they are led like livestock to respond only to their impulses and fickle desires, and ultimately to the slaughter? After all, responding to those impulses feels sooooo gooood.......... :hammer: How can they possibly be wrong? :hammering:

There you have it. I'm done with this. As far as I am concerned, I've obliterated the opposition's arguments and won the debate. :blasting: After all, you keep repeating (or rephrasing) the same old things that Iv'e already answered.
 
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The amazing thing is that all the arguments about God are by people who only have a head knowledge of who or what they think God is. You can NOT have just a head knowledge. Even the religious radicals of the Bible had a head knowledge of Christ, yet they crucified Him. To REALLY KNOW God you MUST have a HEART knowledge of Him. When it gets out of your head and into your heart then ALL arguments will cease.

As far as pe and Christianity being done together thats very simple. Does the Bible not say and I quote from 3rd John verse 2 ....Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth... Isn't pe exercises done to make the penis healthy? Better circulation, and a ton of other reasons. The problem is that when you forget the as thy soul prospereth part. Thats a personal thing for each individual to work out. God also made corn for food. You can enjoy it as it was intended or you can let the corn ferment and make liquor from it and get drunk. What I am saying is that you can make sin from anything that you do.
 
"It seems that you've got Him pretty well figured out, so come on. Tell me you're not saying by this that you have figured out God?"

Thats my POINT!! I HAVENT figured out God. And I make no attempt to. I will only know the answers, when I die. So until then, I will continue to Penis Enlargement and continue to be the "devil", as you call me.

You HAVE figured out God in your mind. You say God is a Him, and the Bible is his word, and he made the earth in seven days, and blah, blah, blah....

"No examples, even. I still haven't seen you back this up with any resonable amount of logical firepower."

Example for what? That Christianity is bullshit?? Because I can give you thousands. Here's one, it has logically proven by scientists and evidence that the Earth is about 4.5 billions years old. According to the Bible, Earth would only be about 6 thousand years.
 
I'll have to agree with Nexus:
you haven't really made a good argument on behalf of the kind of god you're trying to promote here. You claim that you have, but I'm not swayed by your 'arguments' at all. You also claim that we haven't offered any concrete proof that would back up our beliefs. Yet again I must disagree. As long as I remain shackled to this earthly existance and my limited knowledge of human spirituality, I will not dare to be as arrogant as to claim that I have any answers. Unlike you. And, if you read my previous posts over again you will have to agree that I have not made any such claims. I've only stated that I don't have any certain answers.

Now, if you feel His divine presence in your heart, then good for you, all the more power to ya. I, however, do not. Not at least in such a way as you. In my mind, the fact that the majority of earth's population is born outside the influence of christianity is proof enough that you shouldn't follow any certain religion to the letter. Your idea of god, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is largely based upon western morals and ethics, it is something that you have been taught to accept. You also seem to have a clear idea of what is sinful and what is not. Well then, tell me this:

Cannibalism is sinful, correct? OK, let's say that a tribe of humans which hasn't been discovered yet by the outside world is living in some deep, dark jungle. The jungle is scarce in providing them with enough food, so they resort to cannibalism. Just to supplement their otherwise meager diet. They have been doing it for centuries, and their code of morals doesn't condemn or stigmatize it. Then let's say that this tribe is discovered by western explorers, who are horrified at their cannibalistic ways.
Yet these people see nothing wrong in it. They have simply been raised in a different culture with different standards and morals. Who are we christians to tell them what is right and what is wrong? Now, according to you fire-and-brimstone christians, these people would burn in hell for their atrocities, or at the very least, end up in limbo. And their only mistake was being born in the ''wrong'' place and culture. How can god selectively choose a certain segment of humanity to take under his wing?

I think this theory is proof enough. Probably not for you, and I'm counting on the fact that you'll try and discredit it somehow, but it does the job for me.

You also state that we ignore the signs that prove His existance. Wrong. There are no signs to ignore in the first place. The only sign I recognize is the way the universe and our planet Earth have such an ingenious design to them, suggesting that someone or something of unquestionable intelligence and Godly power is responsible for creating them. Yet the idea that us humans, specifically CHRISTIAN humans and their morals and ethics are somehow superior to all other cultures and lifeforms is simply put, arrogant as HELL.

One last thing before I go: I love and respect life in all its glory, both flora, fauna and intelligent life, and I'm about as pure hearted and caring a person as it gets. I sound like a posterboy for the Christian church, don't I? Well, regardless of my virtue and respect for life I still don't feel the presence of the kind of god you describe. I do feel love, and happiness, hate and everything in between, but no God in there. Even as a child I always felt somewhat agitated when attending church... the pastors words rang hollow in my ears, and I could not find any comfort from the whole organization.

Life, the universe and the fact that I'm here are beautiful things, but I don't feel like I owe it to God to dedicate myself to a life of strict moral codes and ethics. I prefer trusting my own judgement of what's right and what's wrong in any given situation. So far the feedback has been positive: ''Shafty, you are an incredibly kind soul. I never knew people like you existed'' ...and so forth... :D
In another words, I don't NEED Christianity to be a good person. I'm doing a damn fine job of it already.
 
Originally posted by Omul_Paianjen

Now Nexus, marriage used to be sacred when people believed in God. IF there aren`t people that believe in the holyness binding them togheter through marriage, than who will for them?
If people believed in God they wouldn`t cheat, they wouldn`t steal, they wouldn`t KILL... The world would be perfect... A Holy world......
Now there are more and more non-believers that attract more non-believers to their side...... We`re turning Earth to Hell.....

Wow, I didn't know Bill Oreilly was a Penis Enlargement-er.

Seriously, I have avoided this thread because as a non-theist; I respected the wishes of the poster to keep this a "Christian discussion."

However this point (quoted) really disturbs me, and I had to interject. This kind of thinking is making 2 (at least) false assumptions.

1. (Philosophcal) It implies somehow that morality is exclusive to religion (while I would argue the exact opposite;that is another thread entirely). It implies that "non-believers" not only lack morals, but are immoral and dragging the world to Hell.

2. (Sociological, pragmatic use)It implies that Christianity, in practice, is good for society. Somehow it keeps society functioning optimally and that "non-believers" are a threat to the normal functioning of society.

My Counterpoints:

1. Atheists are no more likely to behave ( yes, I said behave, because behavior is what ultimately matters, not thought alone) immorally than Christians. I counter that "non-believers" are more moral because they live a reason-based existence in reality and embrace conceptual thinking. they are more likely to be accountable and responsible for their actions, rather than passing them off to some mystical entity.

2. It is a fact MOST people believe in God, yet society is getting worse. This is not due to a rise in "secularism." Most people who lie, cheat, and steal are "believers." I believe the cause is psycho-epistemological.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect a non-believer , who behaves rationally based on real principles to to live a moral life worthy of exhaultation. It is as reasonable to expect a "believer ( which is often a false term, as the "believer" has no beliefs of his own), who has no developed conceptual mentality and a repressed perceptual mentality, combined with an embrace of illogical mystic "non-values"; to live a life of depravity.
 
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