sikdogg said:
You're right... after reading about arginine, ornithine, and lysine i must have skimmed thru the rest too fast. Arginine + glycine does sound good. I'm not arguing that certain combo's of amino acids have biological activity... What i meant by a waste is that gh just doesn't do what most people think it will. Also arginine has been shown to inhibit the reduction of GH due to increased IGF-1 levels. In terms of growth it would be mostly indirect by reducing catabolic/proteolysis activity. It also helps with blood glucose and nutrient partioning and also increased lipolysis.

Personally, i'd rather just inject gh if i want more... it's proven to work every time and can be controlled to give you the benefits you want. Also, from my experience with gh, it's overrated in terms of it muscle building abilities. I've takien it by itself and with anabolics. Most of it's effects is lipolytic and most anabolic gains were from the gear that i took with gh. If anabolic performance is what you're after, igf-1 does a better job. But if you're interested in GH from an aging man's perspective (over 40) and/or for its other health benefits, then gh is the way.

Okay, I see where you are coming from. What I am interested in is its overall health aspect as you mentioned which can also carryover into muscle building (not massive...just better). Also, some of the suppliments can assist in better erections. This is a plus for some here who experience erection problems after the manual training. I have not had any injuries as a result of this training but did experience some erection difficulties...the suppliments have rectified this and have allowed some additional growth (1/2 inch) LMAO
 
Straight8 said:
Yep squats are supposed to be the best for testosterone and but for chest expansion I think heavy curls holding your breath at maximum expansion. I would not do this if you smoke or have fainted in the past from similar exercise, or have an electrolyte imbalance as you could have some serious problems. But I did these and I expanded my chest by 3 inches in only a couple of months or maybe less.

For chest expansion using high-rep squats, you're supposed to immediately superset to light, high-rep pullovers across a bench.
 
Big Al said:
For chest expansion using high-rep squats, you're supposed to immediately superset to light, high-rep pullovers across a bench.
OK, this makes more sense... i speculate it's the pullovers that's doing the chest expansion more than the squats.
 
negative said:
IGF-1 may give you cancer !


IGF will cause all cells to grow. if you are predisposed to a cancer, it will accelerate it's growth.
 
Any updates on more people who are actually using Androgel and or the IGF injections?

IMO, atleast a 1 inch length gain with some girth gain is "guaranteed" (for most guys who have not really exploited the full potential of their body tissues/composition) if you use an extender with some good libido pills like VigRX for about 3 months at around 3 hours per day or more max extension.

Add a good 15min- 1hour of clamping and "standard" Penis Enlargement per day and you are loking at extra growth/accelerated growth if you keep at it.

Dare I say, you may get a "guaranteed" (for most guys who have not really exploited the full potential of their body tissues/composition) 2 inch length gain in 3 months and maybe an inch or so in girth with these aforementioned exercises.

So, with something like Androgel and or IGF truly providing rather fast enlargment I would also expect even faster growth and or more growth.

I'd really like to learn more details of people who are actually using IGF and or Androgel. Androgel seems more appealing since it is trandermal/topical application whereas IGF is injection.

Details of a few experienced users and or larger volumes of more vague summarizing testimonials/statistics for enlargement would be great.

The more the merrier.

If you know of ANY testimonial, users, statistics etc then please post them here. Please feel free to comment at will.

Last but not least, a BIG thanks to DLD, moderators/admins, supporters of all sorts and contributors of all sorts for the great community and free public discussion boards at MOS!

Let the discusion begin...

Peace.
 
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mcgirkz said:
IGF will cause all cells to grow. if you are predisposed to a cancer, it will accelerate it's growth.
The growth in not localized but systemic so i'm not sure if injecting it into your dick will do much.

Also, predisposition to cancer will not accleerate or cause cancer to grow. You must already have cancer in order to accelerate its growth from igf-1.
 
Alternate said:
Any updates on more people who are actually using Androgel and or the IGF injections?...
Both are a waste... test doesn't directly affect the penis like DHT does. Also what makes you think that rubbing test on your dick will make it grow?? If that was the case, bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids. Both test and IGF-1 affect the body systemically not locally.
 
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sikdogg said:
Both are a waste... test doesn't directly affect the penis like DHT does. Also what makes you think that rubbing test on your dick will make it grow?? If that was the case, bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids. Both test and IGF-1 affect the body systemically not locally.

With all due respect, your opinion/your personal analysis that you feel is fact is but one opinion/personal analysis. My experiences has been that there are varying opinions/analysis for atleast 90% of opinions/reported facts/personal analysis.

You say it's a waste. On page 1, a story is told about a man who attributes his large penis to rubbing Androgel on it and there are medical reports of IGF injections potentially duplicating cells/enhancing growth, specifically in the penis, at rates that are apparently remarkable.

I also have read of a few people who were actually going to be trying one or both methods, but at this point I have lost track of who they are and what their experiences have been.

These reports are what has given me reason to question results of actual application.

Have you personally tried either? Why do you seem to be so conclusive about them being a "waste" to the point where you seem somewhat condescending?

The example about body builders in comparison is flawed and vague at this point, IMO. There are certainly a lot of variables to consider, as I would give you benefit of the doubt to know or atleast fathom. It is my understanding that there is quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.

While the descriptions (that I recall, discerned and that have been initially described) in this thread seem to imply that benefits were being discussed and vaguely confirmed for local/direct application (especially and for Androgel). However, whether we are talking about experiences from local and or "systematic" application, I am still interested in learning about whatever experiences people have had with whatever application fore the purpose of penis enlargement.

Lastly, feel free to elaborate on DHT and or anything else that is relative. I recall, from a small amount of reading that I have done, that DHT is what testosterone becomes after being processed through the body in a specific way and or time frame. I really don't know much about it.

Thank you for your reply.
 
Alternate said:
With all due respect, your opinion/your personal analysis that you feel is fact is but one opinion/personal analysis. My experiences has been that there are varying opinions/analysis for atleast 90% of opinions/reported facts/personal analysis.

You say it's a waste. On page 1, a story is told about a man who attributes his large penis to rubbing Androgel on it and there are medical reports of IGF injections potentially duplicating cells/enhancing growth, specifically in the penis, at rates that are apparently remarkable.
Opinions really mean nothing regarding this issue... it's about science. A single person attributing his gains from Androjel doesn't prove a darn thing... it's anecdotal evidence at best. I've been to other boards where people (more than one) have claimed Androjel did squat for them. I've also been to otheres where everyone seems to swear by it. The fact is that test exerts very little effect on the penis. DHT it the primary male hormone that is most androgenic. DHT is the androgen that is responsible for most male traits and that includes the penis. The only affect that test may exert is thru its conversion to DHT. Since you are only applying a few milligrasms of test to your penis, i seriously doubt that that was enough to make a difference.

The page one post of the IGF-1 rat study show promise but if you read it carefully, you would see that they were injecting igf-1 into rats of differing age groups and the rats that showed the most changes were the youngest ones. Add to that the fact that the changes that the young rats showed was not earth shattering. It was a positive marked increase, but not that big. One could speculate that the changes could simply be a result of natural growth as young rats would definitely have higher levels of GH and igf-1 to facilitate natural growth as it is in humans. Also of note is that in the rat study, IGF-1 was not injected into the rat's penis.

Supra (a MOS member) has injected IGF-1 in his penis and if i recall, he didn't experience any significant growth. Alot of bobybuilders inject IGF-1 into worked muscles (for example if the pecs were worked then it was injected in the pecs) in the hopes of localized growth but the fact is that other bodybuilders experience the same level of gains from injecting subcutaneously or into the same muscle for all injections. This shows that there really isn't alot of localized effect happening.

Have you personally tried either? Why do you seem to be so conclusive about them being a "waste" to the point where you seem somewhat condescending?
I have tried IGH-1 but not on my penis. I have used it sub-q and IM with the same effects, leaner body and much more vascularization. I also have alot of experience in the use of anabolic steriods and have injected various flavors of test, deca, tren, and boldenone. I have also done transdermal applications of steroids and prohormones so i think i know a hell of alot more about how androjel works than you would. I am ver familiar with how steroids exert their effects on the body and i know for a fact that they all work systemically. If i'm injecting 750-1,000 miligrams of test into my delts every week or rubbing 750miligrams of test to my chest and legs 2-3 times a day without any bodypart exploding into enormous proportions, i really doubt that a few miligrams rubbed on my penis will do squat.

The example about body builders in comparison is flawed and vague at this point, IMO. There are certainly a lot of variables to consider, as I would give you benefit of the doubt to know or atleast fathom. It is my understanding that there is quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.
The comparison is not flawed nor is it vague. Bodybuilders have been using transdermal applications of test and other hormones/prohormones for some time now and in all cases, the effects were systemic not localized.
 
JFYI, here is an update from the conversation in the other thread:

sikdogg said:
Opinions really mean nothing regarding this issue... it's about science. A single person attributing his gains from Androjel doesn't prove a darn thing... it's anecdotal evidence at best. I've been to other boards where people (more than one) have claimed Androjel did squat for them. I've also been to otheres where everyone seems to swear by it.

This is exactly my point. That is exactly what I am sure that I said here:

Originally Posted by Alternate
With all due respect, your opinion/your personal analysis that you feel is fact is but one opinion/personal analysis. My experiences has been that there are varying opinions/analysis for atleast 90% of opinions/reported facts/personal analysis.

And, just to clarify my input, this "science" that you mention can also be contradicting/varying from difference sources.

I am glad we agree. Maybe there was only a misunderstanding in semantics.

The fact is, in this thread, there is more than one medical study exerpt that claims gains from IGF and there is a testimonial and endorsement about Androgel for gains. Still, your personal comments are saying that it is a "waste" and or will do little to nothing, essentially.

You also make points about local and systematic effects, which seems almost irrelevent to my idea of what I am meaning to discuss because I don't care whether it is local or systematic as long as the reults are discerned.

If I didn't realize that such carying/contradicting "facts", "science" testimonies and opinions are to be considered in context with all other possible sources/information/testimonials/opinions/"facts" and science" etc, then I woudl have never made a post in this thread.

The fact is that test exerts very little effect on the penis.

Ok. I can see how that makes sense in general. Still:

1) Amount of effect is relative to the individual's perception and circumstance regardless of scientific measure.

2) Do you have any statistics to support this statement of yours?

IMO at this point given the contradicting/varying information, to draw conclusions about this requires nothing but testimonials of experience statistics.

The more people that try it and report their findings the better we will get an idea of results.

People can talk about all the "facts", "science", theories, opinions etc etc that they want. Multiple experimentation with actual records of results in a wide variety of males will be the best statistics to be conclusive about.

I was hoping to get some personal comments from Supra and Rydog, as well as as many other people as possible. They were pareticularly mentioned about experimenting with loac and systematic injection of IGF-1.

More testimony from people's experience with Androgel is what I am interested in too. So far, all I know of is 1 testimonial attributed to a man's large penis growth and your comments saying that you don't think it will do anything or little of anything.

There are countless examples of all kinds of paradigm and revolutionary changes/findings that seemed completely illogical or unlikely rational/conclusive at first. Ex: The world is flat, we will never fly in space, computers will never be needed for everyday use, you can't make your penis or tits grow at all and you are stuck with what you were born with, the magic bullet killed JFK and there was only one shooter etc etc etc.

While this particular case is less significant, the principle of point that there certainly seems to be reason for more experimentation and recorded results to be more conclusive is very rational IMO.

DHT it the primary male hormone that is most androgenic. DHT is the androgen that is responsible for most male traits and that includes the penis.

Ok. So I was right when I said:

Originally Posted by Alternate
I recall, from a small amount of reading that I have done, that DHT is what testosterone becomes after being processed through the body in a specific way and or time frame.

I am also aware that it has an effect on hair, and I imgaine that you are correct that it is responsible for a variety of predominantly male traits.

You say:

The only affect that test may exert is thru its conversion to DHT. Since you are only applying a few milligrasms of test to your penis, i seriously doubt that that was enough to make a difference.

The way you present this, seems to justify a very rational and logical response.

1) If you need to convert the test into DHT for growth, how do you increase efficiency of converting test to DHT and having it effect the penis primarily?

2) You insinuate that "a few milligrams" won't make a difference. However, neither will tugging on your dick for only a few hours or days. It seems to me that volume of application may increase chances. The guy who attributed Androgel to his aparent large size did not seem to say that it happened "over night". He may have been consistantly using it for an extended period of time. Same about any other supplement/hormoone/injection/cream etc. Maybe the volume, frequebncy and cumulative time is absolutely essential to discerning results. Actually, it seems that would be the primarily if not soley rational way to discern.

3) I respect your doubts. Still, I do not think that we should be unequivocally conclusive simply because of your current doubts.

You say:

The page one post of the IGF-1 rat study show promise but if you read it carefully, you would see that they were injecting igf-1 into rats of differing age groups and the rats that showed the most changes were the youngest ones.

I did see that, before I posted. It didn't change my rationale for posting as I have.

Add to that the fact that the changes that the young rats showed was not earth shattering. It was a positive marked increase, but not that big.

Growth is growth. I agree, value of growth is something to take into considerations. I also know that satisfaction of growth is relative to the individual's perception and circumstances. Some people want evey cm and mm they can get. Also, think about people who are plateauing a few mm/cm short of their idea size.

Lastly, rats are rats and humans are humans. There may be different effects in humans for various reasons that I can fathom but do not currently understand in full.

One could speculate that the changes could simply be a result of natural growth as young rats would definitely have higher levels of GH and igf-1 to facilitate natural growth as it is in humans.

I agree and I did speculate the same. Still, that is mere speculation and it did not change my rationale of posting as I have. And, still, all the rats made some gains.

Furthermore, the rats made gains in these same "cavernous smooth muscle cells" that we have in our penis.

Also of note is that in the rat study, IGF-1 was not injected into the rat's penis.

I did not see any notation of where the rats were injected, actually. However, assuming that a rat penis is very small I would not suspect that it would be considered a good injection point. Obviously this is relative to your dicussion abot local and systematic effects. So, I will simply reiterate that I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made. Also, assuming that the rats were not injected at the penis, there is then a potential for discussion/argument that the experiment necessary to judge potential differing results from local vs systematic was not made. But, again, I don't really care much about this at all.

Finally, you could also argue that a rat is a rat and a human is a human so just because these results were as so with rats does not mean that they will be exactly the same with humans.

Do I expect a rat to look like Arnold if I get him a weight resistance wheel to run on and some steroids? No. LMAO ;) This is a joke to make a point. I understand that you can comparatively judge ratios of difference/experimentation reults etc.

JFYI, this rat study was not the only medical exerpt that I was talking about. Granted, it may be the only one on page 1.

In response to this:

Post by negative on 3-01-05: Is there any studies with IGF-1 prove that your penis getting bigger with it.?

you posted another experpt which states:

There are a few but i'm too lazy to dig them up right now but here's one...
Quote:
Insulin-like growth factor 1, but not growth hormone, has in vitro proliferative effects on neonatal foreskin fibroblasts without affecting 5-alpha-reductase or androgen receptor activity.

Dykstra KD, Payne AM, Abdelrahim M, Francis GL.

Department of Pediatrics, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, Maryland.

Clinical observation of patients with congenital growth hormone (GH) deficiency and Laron-type dwarfism suggests that factors such as GH or insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) might in addition to androgens, be needed for normal phallic growth. We speculated GH or IGF-1 might have direct actions on genital tissues and performed the present study to evaluate the in vitro effects of GH and IGF-1 on cultured neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. ....
BLAH BLAH ....

This insinuates that you know of several studies that you have read which suggest that IGF-1 is increasing penis size whether naturally and or supplementary. The medical exerpt substantiates it.

You say:

Supra (a MOS member) has injected IGF-1 in his penis and if i recall, he didn't experience any significant growth.

Ok. Interesting. These personal testimonials are what I am interested in for IGF, HGH, Androgel and anything else like this stuff that may cause excellerated growth.

I didn't see him make any posts in this thread or elsewhere about his experiences. I'd be interested in his comments. I have not yet searched. Maybe I will search more later, maybe you could post some of his comments that you know of from elsewhere or maybe he could post in this thread.

You say:

Alot of bobybuilders inject IGF-1 into worked muscles (for example if the pecs were worked then it was injected in the pecs) in the hopes of localized growth but the fact is that other bodybuilders experience the same level of gains from injecting subcutaneously or into the same muscle for all injections. This shows that there really isn't alot of localized effect happening.

Ok. The discussion about local vs systematic again. To reiterate:
I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made.

LMAO ;)

You say:

I have tried IGH-1 but not on my penis. I have used it sub-q and IM with the same effects, leaner body and much more vascularization. I also have alot of experience in the use of anabolic steriods and have injected various flavors of test, deca, tren, and boldenone. I have also done transdermal applications of steroids and prohormones so i think i know a hell of alot more about how androjel works than you would.

Ok. Thank you very much for you imput form experience and your peronsla research. However, there is no need for you to make such statements as " i think i know a hell of alot more about how androjel works than you would". Maybe some of those drugs are influencing aggression and perception because I never meant to insinuate, have claimed or have thought that I was insulting your intelligence and or comparing/competeing with you in regards to "who knows more than the other". This is a friendly conversation for educational purposes. I thank you for your participation, sincerely. Please make sure to not take offense and or be antagonistic and aggrressive. I am analytical and I am simply learning and thinking for myself. That is why I am posting and asking questions. I am here to interact, learn, be friendly, contribute in my personal way. That is it. No need for any antagonism and or aggression towards me. I am here to discuss more than to argue (if you want to argue/discuss semantics, lol LMAO ;) ).

I am ver familiar with how steroids exert their effects on the body and i know for a fact that they all work systemically. If i'm injecting 750-1,000 miligrams of test into my delts every week or rubbing 750miligrams of test to my chest and legs 2-3 times a day without any bodypart exploding into enormous proportions, i really doubt that a few miligrams rubbed on my penis will do squat.

Ok. I respect your input and realize that this is part of your rationale for your comments thus far. Still, if this is soley about the differences in local vs systematic the I reiterate:
I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made.
LMAO ;)

In response to your comment:

bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids.

I responded:

The example about body builders in comparison is flawed and vague at this point, IMO. There are certainly a lot of variables to consider, as I would give you benefit of the doubt to know or atleast fathom. It is my understanding that there is quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.

and you responded:

The comparison is not flawed nor is it vague. Bodybuilders have been using transdermal applications of test and other hormones/prohormones for some time now and in all cases, the effects were systemic not localized.

1) In retrospect, it now seems to me that your primary point was to discuss local vs systematic effects. However, I don't believe that I was thinking of it like that at the time. I believe I was thinking of results only regardless of whether they were from local and or systematic application.

If I had realized that you point was primarily to discuss effects of local vs systematic then I would have simply stated:

I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made.

LMAO ;)

2) In your first comment, you only mentioned injections and you did not menion transdermal application like Androgel (as you did mention in your second comment). I read the testimony of a man apparently attributing large penis gains to Androgel via application to the arms and to the penis. There was an insinuation that application directly to the penis was making a difference by the comment
He was given
>>Androgel (RX only) and was intrigued by the instructions ... they
>>indicated to NOT put it on the penis. He asked the doctor why and he
>>casually remarked ... "maybe they are afraid of enlarging it". So he
>>"broke the rules" and started using it every other day on the penis and
>>every other day on the arms or abs ... within two months he had gained an
>>inch (both erect and limp)
. Assuming that this is a legitimate testimonial then one may conclude that the affects were from local and or systematic, with special attention to the possibility of local effects since the growth was so substantial, with no other mentioned influence of something like Penis Enlargement and or extender etc in that one area in a short period of time.

Furthermore, we know that the penis is not a muscle but an area with "cavernous smooth muscle cells". Maybe there is a distinct difference in local and or systematic application in areas of the body with "cavernous smooth muscle cells" in contrast to areas of large muscle like the "shoulders and asses " as you mentioned for comparative discussion.

The fact is that they are two completely different cells. Muscle vs "cavernous smooth muscle cells". So, one may suspect that effects could certainly be different.

When you combine this with the factual variables of
quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.
that I mentioned then maybe you can understand why I said that the comparison is vague and flawed in my opinion. I can see some relevance, but it does not completely satisfy my current rationale aforementioned.

Again:

This is a friendly conversation for educational purposes. I thank you for your participation, sincerely. Please make sure to not take offense and or be antagonistic and aggrressive. I am analytical and I am simply learning and thinking for myself. That is why I am posting and asking questions. I am here to interact, learn, be friendly, contribute in my personal way. That is it. No need for any antagonism and or aggression towards me. I am here to discuss more than to argue (if you want to argue/discuss semantics, lol LMAO ;) ).

Thanks! LMAO
 
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Damn brother, that was one long post...

I'll try to explain myself further and possibly address some of your points.

The reason i feel that Androgel is a waste is that if the person that claimed to make great gains from it was using propper dosades as prescribed on it's literature, he was only getting a daily dose of test at either 50mg, 75mg or 100mg depending whether he was prescribed the 5g, 7.5g, or 10g Androgel. Even if he doubled the dose that is still a far cry from what is considered a low dose amoung steroid users. Now if you consider that the actual absorbtion rate of a good transdermals is around 20-50%, then you can see how little actual test you're going to get from androgel. The test contained in Androgel is test base or unesterfied test. Test base has a very short half-life in the body, somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-24 hours. This is why it must be applied at least once a day (bodybuilders that use transdermals typically use 10 times that dose applied several times a day). Most steroid injectables use esterfied test. Esters like cypionate, enanthate, propinate, decanoate, etc. allow the test to be released much slower allowing the test to remaim in the body much longer. It effectively extends the half-life from one day all the way to 20 days or longer. So if a bodybuilder such as myself was taking 10 to 20 times the dose of this person, my dick should be a foot long by now... but it isn't. In fact, i didn't notice any significant gains from Penis Enlargement while is was on IGF-1 and/or steroids. There have also been others on this board that have agreed with me on this.

Another point i'd like to make about testosterone is that directly applying it to any tissue is pointless. No tissue (exo skeletal muscle or cavernous smooth muscle cells) can make direct use of test. Test exerts its effect on muscles thru increased protein synthesis, so you can rub all the test in the world on your dick and nothing will happen. This is why i kept on harping on the local vs. systemic issue. Anyone who claims that rubbing Androgel on your dick will make it bigger is agruing for localized effect which is BS. but even from a systemic perspective, Androgel just does not apply enough test to make much of a difference. I don't care what anyone has to say about making gains from Androgel, it just does not add up.

I believe that gains made from Androgel are due to the power of positive thinking. They hear that other people make gains with it so they apply it and can't help but to work harder. They do in fact make gains but not because of the Androgel but from their efforts. I wonder if the guy who claims to have made great gains from Androgel was an experienced Penis Enlargement'er or was he a beginner... also did he change his routine or do anything different. There are also some that are just fast gainers and whether he used Andrgel or not, he could have made the same gains.

Alternate said:
I was hoping to get some personal comments from Supra and Rydog, as well as as many other people as possible. They were pareticularly mentioned about experimenting with loac and systematic injection of IGF-1.

Here's supra's thread... http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5540&highlight=igf-1

There are countless examples of all kinds of paradigm and revolutionary changes/findings that seemed completely illogical or unlikely rational/conclusive at first. Ex: The world is flat, we will never fly in space, computers will never be needed for everyday use, you can't make your penis or tits grow at all and you are stuck with what you were born with, the magic bullet killed JFK and there was only one shooter etc etc etc.
Yes this is true but they have all been debunked by science...

The way you present this, seems to justify a very rational and logical response.

1) If you need to convert the test into DHT for growth, how do you increase efficiency of converting test to DHT and having it effect the penis primarily?

2) You insinuate that "a few milligrams" won't make a difference. However, neither will tugging on your dick for only a few hours or days. It seems to me that volume of application may increase chances. The guy who attributed Androgel to his aparent large size did not seem to say that it happened "over night". He may have been consistantly using it for an extended period of time. Same about any other supplement/hormoone/injection/cream etc. Maybe the volume, frequebncy and cumulative time is absolutely essential to discerning results. Actually, it seems that would be the primarily if not soley rational way to discern.

3) I respect your doubts. Still, I do not think that we should be unequivocally conclusive simply because of your current doubts.
You don't want to increase DHT... it has alot of associated side effects that makes it hard to justify. The more severe sides include: androgenic alopecia (male pattern baldness), increased aggresion, and Benign Prostrate Hypertrophy.

Science has proved time and again that tugging on skin, muscles, and ligature does in fact cause them to expand and lengthen. Rubbing Androjel and claiming that it made you dick bigger is not science and in fact contradictory to how testosterone affects tissues.

This insinuates that you know of several studies that you have read which suggest that IGF-1 is increasing penis size whether naturally and or supplementary. The medical exerpt substantiates it.
Yes this is true but we have to put these studies in perspective. Any IGF/HGH study on growth that is performed on prenatal or the young does little for us as the primary role of IGF/HGH in children is to make them grow into adulthood. If you inject HGH in children, they will grow into very tall adults. This has been proven time and again, in fact it is the therapy used on undersized children. That said, if you apply the same therapy to an adult he/she does not get any bigger or taller.
 
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sikdogg said:
Both are a waste... test doesn't directly affect the penis like DHT does. Also what makes you think that rubbing test on your dick will make it grow?? If that was the case, bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids. Both test and IGF-1 affect the body systemically not locally.


Actually site specific injection does cause the muscles in the injected area to grow.

I am on doctor prescribed steroids and my glutes and shoulders have gotten massive because of the injections.

True it also works systemiclaly, but you do get growth in the areas that receive the high concentration of the hormone
 
Studies do not support localized growth from site injections of steroids...

How long have you been on it as i've been on dozen of cycles and the that has not been the case... frequent injections in the same area can cause temporary swelling due to the depot and typically goes away after a few weeks of either moving to a different site or stopping altogether.
 
I have been doing them for 14 years off and on. Again there is a lot of literature out there says site specific injections into specific muscles increases localized muscle hypertrophy.

Some of the most massive, ripped guys in the world swear by site specific injections

Again I can see the results on my own body and theirs.

You get a higher concentration of AAS in the site
 
I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff, but if there wasn't a localized effect, then why do they make cortisone-analogue creams that are applied directly to the affected area of rashes, etc.? I'm sure there is plenty of systemic effect as well, but there has to be localized effect or otherwise these creams would be no more effective than a tablet of prednisone.

On a side-note, delts on AAS users usually are larger partly because the deltoids and neck muscles are a couple of muscles that have a high concentration of steroid receptors...opposed to say--the lower back.
 
goldmember said:
I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff, but if there wasn't a localized effect, then why do they make cortisone-analogue creams that are applied directly to the affected area of rashes, etc.? I'm sure there is plenty of systemic effect as well, but there has to be localized effect or otherwise these creams would be no more effective than a tablet of prednisone.
You're talking apples and oranges here... treating a rash is not the same as anabolism.

On a side-note, delts on AAS users usually are larger partly because the deltoids and neck muscles are a couple of muscles that have a high concentration of steroid receptors...opposed to say--the lower back.
If this was the case then the neck and delts would be predisposed to gains that outweigh gains made from other bodyparts. Everybody should have well developed neck and delts whether they took steroids or not because there is no such thing as a steroid receptor, there is however an androgen receptor which androgens bind to. Both endgenous and exogenous androgens. I speculate that delts are easily developed because they are a secondary muscle for ALL upperbody exercizes. Anytime you work an upperbody exercize, you are directly or indirectly working your delts.

I wish i was as lucky as THICKEST ONE, cuz i almost always inject gear into my delts and sadly my delts aren't my strongest bodypart.
 
I simply reiterrated what my physiology professor (who earned his Ph.D from The University of California at Berkeley) told me when I asked him this very question. The location of androgen receptors DOES have a large impact on where you will see muscle growth. In your case, you may not have a high concentration of AR in your delts, but the majority of men do. Some men have a high concentration of AR in their scalp...and that is why they go bald while other men don't.
 
That was the point that i was trying to make... i wish it did work that way though...
 
sikdogg;160191 said:
The growth in not localized but systemic so i'm not sure if injecting it into your dick will do much.

Also, predisposition to cancer will not accleerate or cause cancer to grow. You must already have cancer in order to accelerate its growth from igf-1.

You know some good stuff about these peptides and chems.
But in the first part I have to tell you, that's not right. If you have genuine igf-1, then it actually has a local effect in the most part, because of the short half-life I'd say maybe a fifth reacts systemic.

the difficulty in that is, getting to real igf-1. I'm sure there would be a synergetic effect with the use of HGH s.c and igf in cc, but still that is not even the magic pill, as it takes a long time
for the cancer part you are right

stuff like supps are limited. and i'd never buy b$ like virgx or so. andractim/dht creme may increase the libido and lead to androgenic effect, but after the age of 14-15 there is no growth to expect
 
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