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AncientChina said:
Remember it was Leonardo Davinci (a homosexual and fan of the penis) who once was quoted to say "The circumsized penis is something of the upmost beauty, a truly righteous tool of God, and one I enjoy immensely"!
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Dammit! I want confirmation of that quote from three, independent, world-recognized DaVinci scholars! In triplicate!! Notarized in blood by the pope!!!!






Then I'll tell you it's shit anyway LMAO


Ahem... you guys are hijacking this thread :p

Cheers!
Pri
 
Well, all I've got to say is, didn't god (Yahweh) instruct the Jews in the time of Abraham to perform circumcision to form a covenent with him as the one true god? So god is a fan. Well it says it in the bible so it must be true! Just kidding, I don't believe in the bible, but I did read that the Hebrew people may have picked up the practice from contact with the Egyptians, who appearently were doing it from way back. You see, when you live in an arid, sandy environment, circumcision can prevent some very painful, harmful conditions that can develop in the foreskin due to infection and lack of water. Probably why it continues to be a more major practice in Africa and the Muslim world as well. The origins are practical and hygene related, not really religious. I know nobody was seriously arguing that, but in the spirit of informative reading . . .

That being said, Kong I love how you characterize the the forums as growing despite all the criticism directed at you. Do you really think anybody is trying to stop guys from being interested in FR? Do you think your credibility is what attracts people to the forum? Do you think it is yourself that interests men in restoring their foreskins? Frankly it smells like a little bit of egomania wafting through the air. "Ah, men continue to FR despite the fact that people have repeatedly pointed out that I make shit up and cry out with rage when people point out the crapiness in much of my posting, behold my FR forum!" Do you think you're running a cult of personality over here or what? Give me a break.

Come on now guy, how many times do I have to explain this? When people critique your posts, they're only referencing YOUR POSTS, not FR or the men who are interested in it at large. You aren't the intellectual guardian and champion of this stuff, you're just the most frequent poster and most vocally angry whenever somebody challenges anything related to FR or anti-circ, including people who practice it or generally support you (cyclops, kooky).

If there is a guy around here who knows his stuff I'd say it's this Priapologist fellow. I doubt he considers this his "turf" when it comes to posting, and I also don't see him flying into a rage if anybody contradicts one of his opinions on the matter (you have to face it, AC is right, it's you that people bicker with, not really anyody else). Also, not to kiss ass, but he has a legit grip on biology and human anatomy and understands the actual physiological processes at work here. Scientific literacy is a key skill when trying to digest information on a topic that is heavily anecdotal and largely unstudied, and I think your mediocre grip on science and information is what has lead to a lot of the confusion around here. Learn from the guy.

For instance, it sounds like you think seeing the glans is gross, but in truth it's probably a sexual turn-on for women. Normally, the appearance of the glans would indicate sexual arousal in the male, a female sexual cue, just as an open vagina is more arousing to the male eye than a folded over moose knuckle. Probably why circumcised dicks tend to be viewed as more visually pleasing by women.
 
Swank said:
Well Kong, sorry to hear of your medical troubles, but that post rang a little sour.

First off, I think Kooky is pretty open-minded and even evaluator of the topic. I think if there was a reliable thing he could look at that supported the concept, he'd take it as it was. Just because somebody doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're not open to the idea, it just means he requires a different burden of proof. Nobody knows what the hell women prefer, and like has already been said, they probably prefer whatever they're used to, or whoever they're with at the moment. Like I said before, I think it's pretty safe to assume it's a trivial point at best for most women, so who cares?

On that note, I know you don't like doctors, but just as a general point, since we're discussing all this, it is highly unlikely that there is any kind of organized medical conspriacy regarding circumcision. Speaking as somebody with a few MDs in the family as well as some close friends, it just isn't really possible. There is no oversight, coordination, or organization that could possibly orchestrate said conspiracy, and even if there was there would be a paper trail, whistle blowers, something. There isn't some dark cabal of doctor insiders that conspire to keep circumcision prominent, it's just the conventional wisdom in the US and what many parents continue to want for their kids. You guys always talk about what a huge moneymaking scheme it is, but that's rather sili.

The profit margins on circumcisions are not that big of a chunk of the medical industry and they have much more pressing concerns and revenue streams than foreskins. It's a prime issue to you guys because, well, you're into foreskins, but for the average GP it's not something of great concern. I'm sorry, but if you think there is some kind of intentional campaign within the medical community to keep circumcision rates high for that little fraction of revenue, then it just shows serious naivety about the medical and corporate worlds. Do the doctors get a brochure every month from circumcision headquarters? Is there a secret class in med school where they tell all the students they have to push for circumcision at every chance because the medical industry will collapse without it? Don't think so. Hospitals make money from $65 aspirin tablets and overnight billing - anything that take a doctor's and staff's time is already on the low side of fiscal benefit. They'd be just fine without ever performing circumcisions.

90% of doctors performing these types of surgeries are staff docs anyway, they don't individually make money from the surgery. And circumcision rates are dropping nationally, so I doubt they're really pushing it at most hospitals. From what I've been told they could care less what the parents decide, the option is just there if they want it. Plenty of doctors are good and informed people, they're not all money coveting jackasses that don't have any empathy for their patients, which is basically what the "circumcision conspiracy theory" suggests they are.
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What is going on here? again with this. Do you like reading? I like to read. Do you like making money? I enjoy it myself. Do you think that it's a conspiracy among some group or just more likely...why rock the boat? I like money and chances are so do you so is there a conspiracy going on between us to make money? No, but we do share a common ground there. No conspiracy, just happens to be the way it is.
 
Uhh...AC, you did know that I was joking around with you those last few posts, right? Right? Oh lord... I was talking about Barney's retracticle T-Rex penis and DaVinci giving tongue-swirlies... it was a joke folks...chuckle-chuckle...

I wasn't seriously accusing you of glorysizing, AC. To be honest, I am actually quite in awe of your mammoth maleness. I've never seen it, but still I dream about it, and in my dreams it is mammoth.

Closet homosexual...? AC, you post in color much more than I do. If that isn't a sign of closet homosexual tendencies, I don't know what is. You should post in black like all the rest of us manly men. Color is for sissies. Also, don't make fun of Rupaul. Don't you know he acts that way to get girls. Please...

Once more for the records, it don't matter how big it is if you don't have that foreskin. Foreskin is all that counts when it comes to cock. Just ask any female what is more important, personality, looks, money, size or foreskin and 99% will say foreskin. There are literally thousands of polls which reflect this. No, don't bother challenging that. I don't have to prove anything!
 
Iwant8, read the rest of the post, or posts rather as I've commented on it more than once. Individual doctors don't make much money at all from circumcisions, in fact most make NO money at all just by performing them as they're staff doctors, paid on salary, not by the operation. Circumcision takes 15 minutes as I understand it, it's not like they call in a specialist who contracts with the hospital. They bill it and treat it almost like getting a couple of stitches, and the actual procedure isn't much more complicated. It's not some kind of cash cow for the medical industry despite the popular claims.

The other point is, not all doctors are people soley concerned with making as much cash as humanly possible. Believe it or not, many people are in the medical profession for other reasons than just simply making money, and they are entirely ethical. One of the basic tenents of the whole anti-circ thing is that the medical indsutry is an evil monolithic collective of greedy and uncaring doctors who will do anything for a buck. Not the case, and neither is the idea that anybody tries to keep circumcision around just for monetary reasons.

Lots of parents still want it for their kids in the states because of the cultural thing, plain and simple, and the fact is, there is no solid evidence that circumcision really causes a lot of problems for most men. I know it's hard to believe when all you read this stuff about it on the internet (i.e. circumcision makes you suicidal, violent, prone to rape, homosexuality, impotent, depressed, numbs your penis to deadening levels, ect.) but none of these things are really true. Step back for a minute and look at reality, or better yet speak to some doctors about, don't just read all this crap on the internet and make assumptions.

And, it pretty much has been referred to as no less than a conspiracy type situation, like I said, if it's really that big of an issue I'll go back and dig up some quotes. As I recall they pretty much proclaim that circumcision only still exists to make money for doctors. This suggests doctors believe it is harmful, and promote it anyway in order to profit from it, and somehow have some kind of nation-wide covenent to keep this hushed up. That my young friend, is a conspiracy theory.
 
Swank said:
Well, all I've got to say is, didn't god (Yahweh) instruct the Jews in the time of Abraham to perform circumcision to form a covenent with him as the one true god? So god is a fan. Well it says it in the bible so it must be true! Just kidding, I don't believe in the bible, but I did read that the Hebrew people may have picked up the practice from contact with the Egyptians, who appearently were doing it from way back. You see, when you live in an arid, sandy environment, circumcision can prevent some very painful, harmful conditions that can develop in the foreskin due to infection and lack of water. Probably why it continues to be a more major practice in Africa and the Muslim world as well. The origins are practical and hygene related, not really religious. I know nobody was seriously arguing that, but in the spirit of informative reading . . .

That being said, Kong I love how you characterize the the forums as growing despite all the criticism directed at you. Do you really think anybody is trying to stop guys from being interested in FR? Do you think your credibility is what attracts people to the forum? Do you think it is yourself that interests men in restoring their foreskins? Frankly it smells like a little bit of egomania wafting through the air. "Ah, men continue to FR despite the fact that people have repeatedly pointed out that I make shit up and cry out with rage when people point out the crapiness in much of my posting, behold my FR forum!" Do you think you're running a cult of personality over here or what? Give me a break.

Come on now guy, how many times do I have to explain this? When people critique your posts, they're only referencing YOUR POSTS, not FR or the men who are interested in it at large. You aren't the intellectual guardian and champion of this stuff, you're just the most frequent poster and most vocally angry whenever somebody challenges anything related to FR or anti-circ, including people who practice it or generally support you (cyclops, kooky).

If there is a guy around here who knows his stuff I'd say it's this Priapologist fellow. I doubt he considers this his "turf" when it comes to posting, and I also don't see him flying into a rage if anybody contradicts one of his opinions on the matter (you have to face it, AC is right, it's you that people bicker with, not really anyody else). Also, not to kiss ass, but he has a legit grip on biology and human anatomy and understands the actual physiological processes at work here. Scientific literacy is a key skill when trying to digest information on a topic that is heavily anecdotal and largely unstudied, and I think your mediocre grip on science and information is what has lead to a lot of the confusion around here. Learn from the guy.

For instance, it sounds like you think seeing the glans is gross, but in truth it's probably a sexual turn-on for women. Normally, the appearance of the glans would indicate sexual arousal in the male, a female sexual cue, just as an open vagina is more arousing to the male eye than a folded over moose knuckle. Probably why circumcised dicks tend to be viewed as more visually pleasing by women.
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God, you're such a boor. Those last few posts between AC and myself were in good humor. We do that sometimes. Be sili. I do not think seeing the glans is gross. I happen to like my glans. Its big and shriny and mushroomy. If your sense of humor was half the size of your enormous cock you might have picked up on the humor...
 
Hey, I'll take boring over "don't post or I'll beg DLD to ban you" any day. Frankly, I can't tell when you're serious or not, I don't think it falls under the malicous attacks category if I do say that you're a pretty volatile, moody guy. That is to say, one day we might have the cheerful "I don't care what anybody says" Kong, the next day is the black rage "don't post something I don't like or the banning shall commmence, why are you trying to destroy FR and ruin men's lives, I am a crusader and this is my forum for crusading" Kong. Ya know?
 
Swank said:
Iwant8, read the rest of the post, or posts rather as I've commented on it more than once. Individual doctors don't make much money at all from circumcisions, in fact most make NO money at all just by performing them as they're staff doctors, paid on salary, not by the operation. Circumcision takes 15 minutes as I understand it, it's not like they call in a specialist who contracts with the hospital. They bill it and treat it almost like getting a couple of stitches, and the actual procedure isn't much more complicated. It's not some kind of cash cow for the medical industry despite the popular claims.

The other point is, not all doctors are people soley concerned with making as much cash as humanly possible. Believe it or not, many people are in the medical profession for other reasons than just simply making money, and they are entirely ethical. One of the basic tenents of the whole anti-circ thing is that the medical indsutry is an evil monolithic collective of greedy and uncaring doctors who will do anything for a buck. Not the case, and neither is the idea that anybody tries to keep circumcision around just for monetary reasons.

Lots of parents still want it for their kids in the states because of the cultural thing, plain and simple, and the fact is, there is no solid evidence that circumcision really causes a lot of problems for most men. I know it's hard to believe when all you read this stuff about it on the internet (i.e. circumcision makes you suicidal, violent, prone to rape, homosexuality, impotent, depressed, numbs your penis to deadening levels, ect.) but none of these things are really true. Step back for a minute and look at reality, or better yet speak to some doctors about, don't just read all this crap on the internet and make assumptions.

And, it pretty much has been referred to as no less than a conspiracy type situation, like I said, if it's really that big of an issue I'll go back and dig up some quotes. As I recall they pretty much proclaim that circumcision only still exists to make money for doctors. This suggests doctors believe it is harmful, and promote it anyway in order to profit from it, and somehow have some kind of nation-wide covenent to keep this hushed up. That my young friend, is a conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...

A SERIOUS POST BY KONG:

I never said it was big money, comparatively. 5 billion or so annually is alot to me, but I know it is a drop in the bucket when you compare it to other procedures. I think of it as something more in the line of an "add-on" sale. Kind of like fries with your burger, or in my line of business, tossing a strategy guide in for sale with the latest video game. Yes, you are quite right in that it is a quick, simple and low-risk procedure...in other words, snip-snip here's the bill. It's basically a perfect little add-on sale because of its low risk, low cost nature and the fact that, well, the customer may not realize he is dissatisfied for 30 years (and if he does become dissatisfied, there is no legal recourse available due to the statute of limitations). I do not, repeat, do not think it is a conspiracy -- in that I believe somewhere there is a cabal of evil circumcisers plotting their latest schemes -- rather that it is an institutionalized practice that has its own momentum after so many, many years and it needs to be brought to a stop.

The biggest ethical crime I think we can accuse the medical industry of regarding circumcision is their apparent lack of initiative in educating the public. As I said, there were no pros and cons in their circumcision videos on the in-house maternity channel. I would bet 100 dollars there is not even a brochure explaining that circumcision has no medical benefits and has been proven to reduce male sensation during sex anywhere in the hospital I stayed at. This withholding of information all by itself is a horrible thing to my mind. Wouldn't you agree? By law, we require used car salesmen to disclose all information on a vehicle they sale, but doctors are not required by law to disclose all information on an operation they perform on our genitals? Something smells fishy, and I don't think it's my restored foreskin, gentlemen.

Of course, admitting that something bad was done to your genitals opens your mind to a line of reasoning that is not comfortable for some men to contemplate, so I will leave it at that. Think it over as far as you can handle it tonight. I won't push any further right now.
 
I am a moody guy, I admit. Still, there are a few members in this forum who seem to have a personal dislike for me and a knee-jerk reaction to take offense at something I say without even taking a moment to think. I really don't hate you, swank. You have, at times, completely frustrated and infuriated me. At other times, you have forced me to examine my beliefs very closely. I might grouch and threaten, but I would never actually ban you because you are like my yang. I think we could get along a little better if you would quit playing the devil's advocate so much and admit more often that some of the things I say are true (and you know some of them are). I do bullshit at times and I am by no means an expert. You are probably a lot smarter than me and make me look foolish all too often. However, don't think for a second I try to be the foreskin expert here. I think of myself as more of the FR cheerleader here. Rah-rah! Goooooooo, foreskin! I passionately believe what I say, but I am always learning as well, and my beliefs aren't set it stone. They change and evolve as I grow and experience and learn more and more every day.
 
Kong---a relpy to "A SERIOUS POST BY KONG"

See, this is the Kong I can get with. The thing you said in that post really hit home. Especially the part about withholding infomation. In my line of work, I can actually have charges brought against me if I am not specific about what is (my) opinion and what the law says.

The problem is Kong, sometimes you argue/debate yourself into a corner. You leave yourself in a position that you have defended a point to no return. There will always be devil advocates in anything we believe in. I know it maybe the hardest thing in the world for you, but when Swank or myself or anyone else get you really frustrated, instead of lashing out, go deeper into the post and re-read it. Hell, make yourself "cool off" for 24 hours before you reply. I really have no axe to grind with you Kong, or anyone else in the FR forum for that matter. I pay close attention to what happens in here for my own very specific reasons. I do believe in keeping this sub forum an important part of MOS. I do believe there are men who are/will have problems with their circ because of how it was done. This place can help those guys. I also belief that the very basics of skin stretch taught here can help anyone involved in Penis Enlargement. Going over some of my very old post here and at �other forum�, I used to consider myself as a "tight" cut person. No more.

Keep being the FR and anti-circ cheerleader. Keep trying to learn and read as much as possible. I know I am trying to read and learn more myself due to some other problems in my life. And, I am sure you and I will tangle again. Just remember, I'm always right! :) And I always try and call it down the middle. ;)

your friendly neighborhood kookyman
 
You all may think I am a little crazy and over-zealous, but consider this. If no one takes a stand and acts a little outrageous and makes a fuss, then nothing will ever get done. The "down the middle" approach is fine if you do not really care and don't want things to change. Just sit on your sofa and nod your head and think, "Yeah, that kinda sucks..." To get things done, tho, you gotta get people to notice. I think I have made alot of men here really think about the issue...and saved a few future little boys from being needlessly tally-whacked. Before he quit the forum out of frustration, Execution asked me why I stuck around, why I bothered, when I caught so much shit about it. Well, in essence, that's why. I want to get some of you guys to think about it a moment before you offer your kids up to the knife. Who, after all, is really benefiting from this institutionalized practice...?
 
You have done that. And Well-done that might add. I count myself as one of those. Every time the wife and I talk about having kids, it comes up now and I have her leaning more and more my way. And yeah, I do at times consider you a little crazy or a fanatic. But I also at times pay very close attention to what you say. The informative, funny, always willing to help Kong is much more preffered than your evil twin. ;)

kook
 
I try to keep him in check, but he's-- so-- strong. He makes me do things...sometimes...say things....urrrgggghhhhh!...hhhhh...hhhhh...
 
Believe me man. I understand the part about keeping "my" evil twin in check. When he takes over, whe boy watch out. Just get me to arguing over why Pete Rose belongs in the HOF or why Seattle Slew was the greatest race horse ever. Or get me debating about how the neo-cons hijacked Reagan's party. Or even worse, let my evil twin just hold or smell one cigarette. Oh man he is strong.......

kook
 
Swank said:
I know it's hard to believe when all you read this stuff about it on the internet (i.e. circumcision makes you suicidal, violent, prone to rape, homosexuality, impotent, depressed, numbs your penis to deadening levels, ect.) but none of these things are really true.
Click to expand...

Swank,

I have to disagree with you on this point. As absurd as these claims sound to you, there are men who fervently believe them to be true - I've talked to some of them online. These individuals feel genuinely persecuted because of, and grievously harmed by, their circumcisions. Yes, it is hard to give credence to some of these ideas, but to dismiss them out of hand is a disservice to the individuals who truly believe them to be truth.

Peace
Pri
 
kong1971 said:
I try to keep him in check, but he's-- so-- strong. He makes me do things...sometimes...say things....urrrgggghhhhh!...hhhhh...hhhhh...
Click to expand...

Do you reckon that Valium might help?

Just kidding!


Seriously, I agree with Kooky that the kill-or-die style of debate that you sometimes allow yourself to get caught up in is not always, um, persuasive.

[Repeat this mantra: invective is not effective]

But, damn, you do get the fireworks going around here! So, you're right, some eggs have to be broken to make an omelet. But, here's some of my useless advice: keep the fire, just make sure you've got enough fuel :)

Peace
Pri
 
Yeah, not to get swank on your case, priap, (cause he always disagrees with me) but I chatted with one man who is considering restoration just last night. He described his penis as being almost totally numb, like a 2 on a 10 scale. I tried to encourage him by letting him know that FR would help to increase his sensitivity, but he was very disheartened. He said he wanted to restore but was held back by the time and effort of restoring and by the fact that, no matter how well he succeeded, he would never get back 100%. I counselled him that the time and effort were worth the reward and that any improvement was better than nothing.

Now, you can look at it from swank's point of view, which is that this man is either a liar or a victim of anti-circ brainwashing-- Or you can look at it from my viewpoint, which is that there are really men out there in need of help from damaging, overtight circumcisions and deserve some aid.

Out of compassion, I always presume the latter. It is too easy to dismiss the suffering of another human being out of cold-heartedness, to push them away from us when we should be pulling them to us. If he is a liar, then all I have done is wasted a little time. If he is truly needful, then hopefully I helped him a little with my encouragement.

I know when I was in the hospital and suffering a great deal of pain, the staff I am most grateful to are the ones who took my complaints seriously and showed compassion. The ones who looked at me like I was an annoying peice of meat and acted like I was a big faker...well, I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. I'll always be grateful to the nurse who came in and held my hand for a minute while I was howling in pain...and I'll always hate the one who came in and shoved a syringe of dope into my IV without caring one bit how bad it burned.
 
oh, there's plenty of fuel yet...

I may retire when I get the hood completely grown... then I'll leave it up to one of you guys to keep the fire burning.
 
Priapologist said:
[Repeat this mantra: invective is not effective]
Click to expand...

Dammit! I should have written: invective is ineffective! That is so much pithier.






Man, I'm such a fucking geek.
 
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