>:( I Wanna Be Bigger!!! >:(

brisland and Wes, 3 questions:

  1. What was/is your cardio routine?
  2. What is your ab routine?
  3. How many fat grams do you eat per day and from what food sources?
Okay that's 4 questions, sue me. :P You guys have such outstanding physiques I just had to ask.
 
Baraka said:
brisland and Wes, 3 questions:

  1. What was/is your cardio routine?
  2. What is your ab routine?
  3. How many fat grams do you eat per day and from what food sources?
Okay that's 4 questions, sue me. :P You guys have such outstanding physiques I just had to ask.
Click to expand...

Good questions. Also, interested in total calories per day at your existing cutting rate with the 30-100 grams of carbs.
 
Sorry guys been really busy as of late.... Well to tell the truth I'm not much of a calorie counter. I pretty much go by eye and what feels right. Everyone's different. Whats been working for me as of late is the whole carb load/depletion cycle. I go 3 days straight 30 - 40 grams low glycemic carbs spread throughout the day. I up the protein on these days to make up for the reduction in calories because of the low carbs. On the forth day I up the carbs to about almost 350 grams all by way of hi glycemic carbs and drop the protein some. Keep in mind that all the carbs I speak of come in the form of a vegi of some sort. Hi carb days tend to be a ton of potatoes and rice and low carb days lo glycemic such as broccoli, cauliflower. This is pretty tough and it drains you really fast. The use of an aid such as a fat burner or energy pill helps a lot. On top of this I do cardio 2 days on 1 day off on an empty stomach first thing in the morning then lift in the evening for about an hour.
 
brisland said:
Sorry guys been really busy as of late.... Well to tell the truth I'm not much of a calorie counter. I pretty much go by eye and what feels right. Everyone's different. Whats been working for me as of late is the whole carb load/depletion cycle. I go 3 days straight 30 - 40 grams low glycemic carbs spread throughout the day. I up the protein on these days to make up for the reduction in calories because of the low carbs. On the forth day I up the carbs to about almost 350 grams all by way of hi glycemic carbs and drop the protein some. Keep in mind that all the carbs I speak of come in the form of a vegi of some sort. Hi carb days tend to be a ton of potatoes and rice and low carb days lo glycemic such as broccoli, cauliflower. This is pretty tough and it drains you really fast. The use of an aid such as a fat burner or energy pill helps a lot. On top of this I do cardio 2 days on 1 day off on an empty stomach first thing in the morning then lift in the evening for about an hour.
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I am along those same lines -- I don't count calories, but I also don't carb load/deplete. I am on a steady diet of sweet potatoes, chicken, lean beef grits and oatmeal. I do Cardio about 4 times a week in the a.m. on an empty stomach. I do 100 sit ups every night for abs. You'd be surprised the difference it can make cutting out all of the bullshit in your diet. Its all a mind thing. You gotta change how you look at food. When its diet time for a show, its eat for survival and screw the taste. Bland is grand is my motto.
 
I get the idea of working out in the morning. However, I also understand the close relation that it is best to conume the most calories and carbs that are in your daily diet in the morning so that you have a better chance at using all of what you put in instead of storing as fat. So, I 'm not sure about the sense to doing the morning workout on an empty stomach, because the workout will help to burn the carbs and cals eaten in the day instead of storing them for fat.

Thinking it through, the only way it MIGHT make sense - based on my current knowledge abnd experience - is that I am usually STARVING after a workout and I am more likely to over eat immediately after a workout so maybe it is good to try to compensate for that by not consuming anything before the workout. HOWEVER, then there is the idea that skipping meals reduced metabolism ... but maybe that is balanced with the fact that working out increases metabolism. HOWEVER, sometimes I am starving in the morning and sometimes my workouts SUCK if I don't have enough energy - which comes from a decent amount of carbs/cals. I also hate using caffein/sugar stimulants for energy.

What do you guys consume between waking up and working out? Water only? Vitamins?

What is your final meal before you got to bed and how long before bed do you eat it? I'm trying protein only at least 2 hours before bed right now .. and a lot of water.

Hemodilator NO2 (A-AKG) combined with some vitamins and water may be a good way to boost morning energy without a meal. But, I want to know how the ffects of A AKG compare to stimulants such as caffein etc.

The best officially termed "energy drink" is either XS Energy or 5 Hour Energy in my experience, for their 80mg max caffein content for initial (or total?) jolt combined with 4900% of B12 in the XS or 8333% of B12 in the 5 Hour for supposed sustaining. They work well, but I don't like the idea of getting hooked on caffein at all. XS has a decaf version, but I haven't tried it to compare if it is still very enerizing ... and getting it can be extra hassle because it is only sold through Alticor/Amway/Quixtar. 5 hour is at GNC and growing lists of local drug stores. They are both also EXPenis EnlargementNSIVE. They both have about 8 calories, and I'm not sure how the cals are effected by the caffein.

Last but not least ... cal counting, carb counting. I have not figured a way to determine carbs other than percentage of calories. I am just starting to try to work out a diet. Based on what you two have said, I've been thinking of aiming for around 100 carbs per day max ... only in the morning with complex carbs combined with high fiber and high protein content (not sure about glycemics) .... though I think complex carbs like whole grain wheat are supposed to be low on the GI. I'm aiming for around 400 calories max for the moning meal - posibly 600. I'm still not sure if this morning meal should be before or after my workout, but based on what you guys are saying I guess it should be after.

Also ... for counting calories -
I think the general formula is wieght x 10 for number of calories for losing weight, wieght x 12.5 for number of calories to maintain and weight x 15 for gain. Right?

I try to keep my Cup Measure handy for the moning ... though I can eye it about the size of my closed fist. Then I try to drink water only (8-12 ounces with every meal - 5-6 meals in addition to breakfast ) and eat Tilapia for the rest of the day - which is a fish high in protein, that confirms in taste to almost any flavor you add to it, supposed to be properly packaged with the right amount of calories/nturitional facts on each individual packlage for each filet. Adding various no cal, no carb seasoningsto the tilapia helps break the boring taste. Mustard is also a good no cal no carb flavor changer.

If I grab a snack when I'm out, or carry bars with me, I only grab snacks that have a nutritional label and control portion accoridngly and drink extra water to feel full if need be.

I'm also thinking of using Mayo, Margarine butter and Penut Butter in addition to my Fish Oil for good fats. These are easy to keep track of. I know how to eye the tablespoon serving and generally only like half a tbsp per serving.

What do you, bris and wes, think of this?

Also, have you guys tried any sesamin, sesame seed lignant extract concentrate products? I was looking for stim free fat loss and found the sesamin is the new wave on the market and it seems to be working really well. I think Avant Labs came out with the SesaThin and other companies are catching on and starting to compete. Seems kinda utpoian because it is natural, "stim free", and allows one to eat more/cheat with no ill effects and workout less intensly to an extent for cutting .... and also even bulk with decreased fat gain. Seems to regulate test though for the negative side effect - but to an unknown and possibly very marginal extent -or possibly large extent of course. Als, some people say it decreases their immune efficiency .... but not all people say this. Need more lab testing to figure out more about it, but curious on your thoughts.
 
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PenilePersist said:
I get the idea of working out in the morning. However, I also understand the close relation that it is best to conume the most calories and carbs that are in your daily diet in the morning so that you have a better chance at using all of what you put in instead of storing as fat. So, I 'm not sure about the sense to doing the morning workout on an empty stomach, because the workout will help to burn the carbs and cals eaten in the day instead of storing them for fat.

Thinking it through, the only way it MIGHT make sense - based on my current knowledge abnd experience - is that I am usually STARVING after a workout and I am more likely to over eat immediately after a workout so maybe it is good to try to compensate for that by not consuming anything before the workout. HOWEVER, then there is the idea that skipping meals reduced metabolism ... but maybe that is balanced with the fact that working out increases metabolism. HOWEVER, sometimes I am starving in the morning and sometimes my workouts SUCK if I don't have enough energy - which comes from a decent amount of carbs/cals. I also hate using caffein/sugar stimulants for energy.

What do you guys consume between waking up and working out? Water only? Vitamins?

What is your final meal before you got to bed and how long before bed do you eat it? I'm trying protein only at least 2 hours before bed right now .. and a lot of water.

Hemodilator NO2 (A-AKG) combined with some vitamins and water may be a good way to boost morning energy without a meal. But, I want to know how the ffects of A AKG compare to stimulants such as caffein etc.

The best officially termed "energy drink" is either XS Energy or 5 Hour Energy in my experience, for their 80mg max caffein content for initial (or total?) jolt combined with 4900% of B12 in the XS or 8333% of B12 in the 5 Hour for supposed sustaining. They work well, but I don't like the idea of getting hooked on caffein at all. XS has a decaf version, but I haven't tried it to compare if it is still very enerizing ... and getting it can be extra hassle because it is only sold through Alticor/Amway/Quixtar. 5 hour is at GNC and growing lists of local drug stores. They are both also EXPenis EnlargementNSIVE. They both have about 8 calories, and I'm not sure how the cals are effected by the caffein.

Last but not least ... cal counting, carb counting. I have not figured a way to determine carbs other than percentage of calories. I am just starting to try to work out a diet. Based on what you two have said, I've been thinking of aiming for around 100 carbs per day max ... only in the morning with complex carbs combined with high fiber and high protein content (not sure about glycemics) .... though I think complex carbs like whole grain wheat are supposed to be low on the GI. I'm aiming for around 400 calories max for the moning meal - posibly 600. I'm still not sure if this morning meal should be before or after my workout, but based on what you guys are saying I guess it should be after.

Also ... for counting calories -
I think the general formula is wieght x 10 for number of calories for losing weight, wieght x 12.5 for number of calories to maintain and weight x 15 for gain. Right?

I try to keep my Cup Measure handy for the moning ... though I can eye it about the size of my closed fist. Then I try to drink water only (8-12 ounces with every meal - 5-6 meals in addition to breakfast ) and eat Tilapia for the rest of the day - which is a fish high in protein, that confirms in taste to almost any flavor you add to it, supposed to be properly packaged with the right amount of calories/nturitional facts on each individual packlage for each filet. Adding various no cal, no carb seasoningsto the tilapia helps break the boring taste. Mustard is also a good no cal no carb flavor changer.

If I grab a snack when I'm out, or carry bars with me, I only grab snacks that have a nutritional label and control portion accoridngly and drink extra water to feel full if need be.

I'm also thinking of using Mayo, Margarine butter and Penut Butter in addition to my Fish Oil for good fats. These are easy to keep track of. I know how to eye the tablespoon serving and generally only like half a tbsp per serving.

What do you, bris and wes, think of this?

Also, have you guys tried any sesamin, sesame seed lignant extract concentrate products? I was looking for stim free fat loss and found the sesamin is the new wave on the market and it seems to be working really well. I think Avant Labs came out with the SesaThin and other companies are catching on and starting to compete. Seems kinda utpoian because it is natural, "stim free", and allows one to eat more/cheat with no ill effects and workout less intensly to an extent for cutting .... and also even bulk with decreased fat gain. Seems to regulate test though for the negative side effect - but to an unknown and possibly very marginal extent -or possibly large extent of course. Als, some people say it decreases their immune efficiency .... but not all people say this. Need more lab testing to figure out more about it, but curious on your thoughts.
Click to expand...


I'll keep it simple for ya. IF i work out in the am, it is ONLY cardio and low intensity so that the focus will be on burning fat as opposed to depleting glycogen stores in the muscle. I comsume 4-5 meals a day the first being around 6am and yes I do my cardio before I eat. I have a set portion size for each meal that I religously stick to which eliminates over eating completely. My last meal, with carbs, is between 8pm and 9pm. The only supplements I take are a good whey protein (none pre competition at all), L-Glutamine and a good multivitamin. Through the results gains I have seen in my body over the last 2-1/2 months, supplements are near useless to me. In my opinion supplements are just what they sound -- The SUPPLEMENT what you may not be getting from real food.

later
 
Same here, I eat about 6-8 meals a day last one being around 11 or 12 at night w/ the 1st at around 8, 8:30 then from there every 2 hrs. With those meals, two are protein shakes which are still food just blended up (2cans of tuna,ice,Raspberry Ice crystal light) My last carb meal being at around 6 or 7 in the evening. Not to many supps tho. Just a basic amino, a fat burner, and the right food. I think if people only stuck to something they would realize how much diet matters. I spend way way way more money on food than supplements. I bet Wesley could say the same.
 
brisland said:
Same here, I eat about 6-8 meals a day last one being around 11 or 12 at night w/ the 1st at around 8, 8:30 then from there every 2 hrs. With those meals, two are protein shakes which are still food just blended up (2cans of tuna,ice,Raspberry Ice crystal light) My last carb meal being at around 6 or 7 in the evening. Not to many supps tho. Just a basic amino, a fat burner, and the right food. I think if people only stuck to something they would realize how much diet matters. I spend way way way more money on food than supplements. I bet Wesley could say the same.
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Thats a big 10-4. I practice the KISS method. Keep It Supidly Simple.
 
WesleyS said:
Thats a big 10-4. I practice the KISS method. Keep It Supidly Simple.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to calculate how to keep it stupidly simple rofl . I want the simplicity to make sense. I was describing a rather simple diet I am trying to formulate for me in hopes that you two would comment on it more specifically to help me guage the sense in it.

You still didn't answer these though:
a)What do you guys consume between waking up and working out? Water only? Vitamins? You both said you workout before your first meal, I thought.

b) What is the theory behind it being bad to eat breakfast before the workout when you get the energy for the workout and burn it off right away and early in the day? Isn't that much better than eating after the workout only when you are going to be more docile? That's what I was going on about in large part and the supps became part of it mostly for the energy reason, especially if you are not fueling with a meal before the moning workout .. and then it got reminded me about the new "natural" "anti stimulant" fat burner that I see gaining some popularity - which are a few products out there with "Sesamin" - a high concentrate lignan extract from sesame seed.

I supose going to bed with some carbs helps you with more energy in the morning a bit, but my understanding has been that for maximum fat loss/prevention you do not consume any carbs in the second half of your day and you decrease total food intake as your progress throughout the day because you are less active and those more likely to store it as fat.

That seems to make sense to me, and the morning workout before meal is something I hear talked about a lot but it also seems to contradict the other info a bit so I am wondering about the balance in scientific/biologic theory.

I thought I'd go with a larger breakfast/first meal of the day (undecided pre or post workout, which is why I am asking you about it) with possibly all of my carbs (maybe 100g of carbs - all complex with reasonable protein as well - maybe 400-600 calories) ... combined with my vitamins and fish oil ... and then only eat protein via Tilapia for the rest of the day between another 5 meals and keep around 1600 calories total since I weigh 165 right now but am at 15-18% BF and want to get down towards 10% BF. Also, I figured I'd alternate eating some mayo, margarine butter, penut or soy butter, for fat in addition to the fact that I'll take another serving of fish oil later in the day (I'd take all fish oil but I heard that is bad due to toxic levels causing blod to be unable to clot and more). Also I figure I should drink 8-12 ounces of water per meal. I figure the occasional meal replacement bar with 20g+ carbs is okay as long as it's no later than about half way through my day. I figure 1-2 cheat days a week.

More specific thoughts, please?

I'm sure there is no one way to go about this, but I've never really tried to diet seriously and I want to now so I'm open to the discussion to help me best adjust.
 
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PenilePersist said:
I'm trying to calculate how to keep it stupidly simple rofl . I want the simplicity to make sense. I was describing a rather simple diet I am trying to formulate for me in hopes that you two would comment on it more specifically to help me guage the sense in it.

You still didn't answer these though:
a)What do you guys consume between waking up and working out? Water only? Vitamins? You both said you workout before your first meal, I thought.

b) What is the theory behind it being bad to eat breakfast before the workout when you get the energy for the workout and burn it off right away and early in the day? Isn't that much better than eating after the workout only when you are going to be more docile? That's what I was going on about in large part and the supps became part of it mostly for the energy reason, especially if you are not fueling with a meal before the moning workout .. and then it got reminded me about the new "natural" "anti stimulant" fat burner that I see gaining some popularity - which are a few products out there with "Sesamin" - a high concentrate lignan extract from sesame seed.

I supose going to bed with some carbs helps you with more energy in the morning a bit, but my understanding has been that for maximum fat loss/prevention you do not consume any carbs in the second half of your day and you decrease total food intake as your progress throughout the day because you are less active and those more likely to store it as fat.

That seems to make sense to me, and the morning workout before meal is something I hear talked about a lot but it also seems to contradict the other info a bit so I am wondering about the balance in scientific/biologic theory.

I thought I'd go with a larger breakfast/first meal of the day (undecided pre or post workout, which is why I am asking you about it) with possibly all of my carbs (maybe 100g of carbs - all complex with reasonable protein as well - maybe 400-600 calories) ... combined with my vitamins and fish oil ... and then only eat protein via Tilapia for the rest of the day between another 5 meals and keep around 1600 calories total since I weigh 165 right now but am at 15-18% BF and want to get down towards 10% BF. Also, I figured I'd alternate eating some mayo, margarine butter, penut or soy butter, for fat in addition to the fact that I'll take another serving of fish oil later in the day (I'd take all fish oil but I heard that is bad due to toxic levels causing blod to be unable to clot and more). Also I figure I should drink 8-12 ounces of water per meal. I figure the occasional meal replacement bar with 20g+ carbs is okay as long as it's no later than about half way through my day. I figure 1-2 cheat days a week.

More specific thoughts, please?

I'm sure there is no one way to go about this, but I've never really tried to diet seriously and I want to now so I'm open to the discussion to help me best adjust.
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(A) Nothing. Empty stomach but there is no lifting at all only cardio and some ab work every other day

(B) Depends on your goals. If I'm bulking up I don't do the morning cardio workout and eat like a hog all day every 2-3 hrs. Then only lift about 4 or 5 times a week.

If I'm cutting it's am cardio on an empty stomach then cut carbs and up the protein usally around 6pm

I don't like lifting in the morning I like to have a few meals in me. You don't really become docile after a workout. Working out and putting muscle on only speeds up your metabolism and actually allows you to eat more. So eating before and after are very important. I do a post workout shake right after my workout before I even get to my car then an hour from there I have a meal.
 
brisland said:
(A) Nothing. Empty stomach but there is no lifting at all only cardio and some ab work every other day

(B) Depends on your goals. If I'm bulking up I don't do the morning cardio workout and eat like a hog all day every 2-3 hrs. Then only lift about 4 or 5 times a week.

If I'm cutting it's am cardio on an empty stomach then cut carbs and up the protein usally around 6pm

I don't like lifting in the morning I like to have a few meals in me. You don't really become docile after a workout. Working out and putting muscle on only speeds up your metabolism and actually allows you to eat more. So eating before and after are very important. I do a post workout shake right after my workout before I even get to my car then an hour from there I have a meal.
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Ditto on that. If you start reading about bodybuilding and diets and supplements -- you'll end up more confused than you already are. The problem is articles written about bodybuilding are biased to whomever is writing or whoever the articel is about. (this is just my opinion)

Trial and error has worked best for me.
 
brisland said:
(A) Nothing. Empty stomach but there is no lifting at all only cardio and some ab work every other day

(B) Depends on your goals. If I'm bulking up I don't do the morning cardio workout and eat like a hog all day every 2-3 hrs. Then only lift about 4 or 5 times a week.

If I'm cutting it's am cardio on an empty stomach then cut carbs and up the protein usally around 6pm

I don't like lifting in the morning I like to have a few meals in me. You don't really become docile after a workout. Working out and putting muscle on only speeds up your metabolism and actually allows you to eat more. So eating before and after are very important. I do a post workout shake right after my workout before I even get to my car then an hour from there I have a meal.
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Thanks, but......

A) I expect that you would at least consume a lot of water. You're telling me you don't even have anything to drink between waking up and coing your cardio? I've been a runner and athlete of various sports my whole life, except for body building, and hydration is extremely important and generally you should have at least 8 [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]fl[/words] oz of water 15-30 minutes before a workout ... and constant hydration during the exercise is good. I figure, if you're only going to be drinking water, you may as well take your vitamins then too. None of these have any calories - as long as you avoid fish oil, so it's like an empty stomach but a bit or a lot healthier.

B) Not trying to be rude - really - just a misunderstanding, but I know it depends on goals and I thought it was obvious that this whole time we were all talking about cutting.

So, for cutting, please - What is the theory behind it being bad to eat breakfast before the workout when you get the energy for the workout and burn it off right away and early in the day? Isn't that much better than eating after the workout only when you are going to be more docile?

I understand that working out to build muscle speeds metab and allows more consumption ... but a good workout - be it cardio or weights - is going to cause some amount of hunger and fatigue after it.

Besides, what I meant by going to be more docile was going to be less active - not simply fatigued from your workout. I meant - you aren't doing anything near the level of activity for the rest of the day - so why eat your first meal then when it seems you would be more likely to store it as fat ... whereas if you eat it before your workout then you get the nutrients and cals and carbs in - without skipping a meal to add to the metab benefits - as early in the day as possible right before your most intense activity where you will burn just about all of it off.

I always bring a protein shake and a meal replacement bar with me for conumption as soon as I get to the locker room, as well - and I have been doing this for at least 4 years. The bar carbs are about all sugar though, so I'm thinking about brining some complex carbs with me to eat with the shake instead. But, it still makes sense that - even though it is good to consume after - you consume more of your daily ratio before so you still get your daily uptake but you burn more of it off in your workout.

WesleyS said:
Ditto on that. If you start reading about bodybuilding and diets and supplements -- you'll end up more confused than you already are. The problem is articles written about bodybuilding are biased to whomever is writing or whoever the articel is about. (this is just my opinion)

Trial and error has worked best for me.
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I know what you are saying, but what I said about supplements was really simple - not confused. I am also not really confused on the whole cutting shindig. The ONLY confusion I have been trying to address head on- direct- here - is the cutting theory behind really not eating anything before your morning workout. It seems to go against all the other basic logic of cutting - yet it also seems to be a very common suggestion when cutting ... simply because all of the other logic in cutting is basically portion control to the right caloric uptake and consume most or all of your carbs and cals early in the day when you are most likely to burn them off instead of store them as fat .... yet it is still popular to workout on an empty stomach and then start eating when you are going to be less active. It's just flat out contradictory - yet extremely popular advice - so there must be some theory on why that is most effective .... and I've tried to ask two times now and to be honest - not rude - just addressing a misunderstanding and lack of answer - bris hasn't answered and you just keep saying "ditto" on whatever bris says followed by essentially - "keep it stupidly simple". It leads one to believe that you have no idea what the science is behind the theory of not eating before your workout - but I would be surprised that you guys didn't really understand what you were doing and were just going with the popular advice and still getting good results due to your calorie uptake-burn ratio.

That was my whole main reason for my long post, really, and it still is.

Back to the reason I talked about very simple supplementation AND performance increases that aren't really "supplementation" is because of energy when low on cals/carbs for cutting - because it all comes back to energy when when not consuming anything before a morning workout and being on a low cal and carb diet.

So I mentioned two of the best energy drinks on the market - based on mostly HUGE percentages of B vitamins (4900% in XS and 8333% in B12 - and ENHANCEMENT NOT SUPPLEMENT) with a relatively small jumpstart of 80mg of caffein (which is still not to my liking because I hate stimulants/caffein). I also mentioned that XS comes with decaff now, but I'm not sure how effective it is without the caff.
Then, for energy again, I mentioned A AKG - or Nitric Oxide - very simple hemodilator that tends to increase energy .... and seems to not really be "stimulant" based though I'm not sure .. also an ENHANCEMENT - NOT SUPPLEMENT.
Then, when the whole point for cuting cals/carbs is to cut fat, yet you also lose energy, of course it would be great if you could take something that would help you burn more fat without cutting so many cals/carbs .... yet most of these "fat burners" are just extremely high doses of stimulants - often 200-250+++ mg of caffein ... so to me they are disastrous and stupid no matter how much they help for a while. HOWEVER, I just started reading about Sesamin - the "stimulant free" natural high concentrate lignan extract from sesame seed oil ... AN ENHANCER - NOT SUPPLEMENT ( though it is an oil extract that can be confused with SUPPLEMENTS like Fish Oil/Omega Supps )... and I just wanted to know if you had any experience or knowledge about it ... because it seems that it can help you do things when cutting like not have to be starving throughout the day - not have to skip the morning meal - cheating a bit more every week ... and still getting the same or better results than you were before. So far, the side effects seems to be more regulation/decrease on testosterone to some yet to be measured in control study extent - which won't really bother when cutting - unless it effects your libido too much (but that's a whole different issue) - but there are no lab studies on this theory yet. Also, for gaining - some people are taking this and seem to be figuring ways to gain muscle while using the sesamin - albeit with the theory that it is reducing test - and thanks to the sesamin they are not putting the fat on that they used to with the required cal amounts for gains so when it comes time to cut it is much easier to do it naturally or with some sort of aid. Like I said though, this is just me learing of other's experiences and I wanted to know if either of you knew anything about it. There needs to be more lab work because it sems like it may be something good to take all the time if you want - .... but then again nobody has the conrete lab tests to really know exactly what it is doing to the body beyond speculation from understanding biological science very well that has oviously been effective to enough extent that this is working very well at cutting fat while being natural and stim free. If lab tests say it reduces test too much, maybe natural and enhancement test boosters from squats to supps/enhance "potions" may help ... but the lab tests need to be done to be sure.

PHEW!!!!! Now, can I PLEASE get a REAL answer on the theory behind no meal before workout and how it makes sense when it seems to contradict all the other cutting rules of consuming more early in the day and when you will burn the most?!?!?!? ALSO, PLEASE without telling me to keep it stupidly simple again?!?!?

lol .... All love and just some misunderstanding here .... so please don't take any of this personal!!!

I will do what works for me - and from what I can tell I am already doing it with very simple methods with no added supps/performance enhancers - but I want to improve and understand more. Thanks.
 
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PenilePersist said:
Thanks, but......

A) I expect that you would at least consume a lot of water. You're telling me you don't even have anything to drink between waking up and coing your cardio? I've been a runner and athlete of various sports my whole life, except for body building, and hydration is extremely important and generally you should have at least 8 [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]fl[/words] oz of water 15-30 minutes before a workout ... and constant hydration during the exercise is good. I figure, if you're only going to be drinking water, you may as well take your vitamins then too. None of these have any calories - as long as you avoid fish oil, so it's like an empty stomach but a bit or a lot healthier.

B) Not trying to be rude - really - just a misunderstanding, but I know it depends on goals and I thought it was obvious that this whole time we were all talking about cutting.

So, for cutting, please - What is the theory behind it being bad to eat breakfast before the workout when you get the energy for the workout and burn it off right away and early in the day? Isn't that much better than eating after the workout only when you are going to be more docile?

I understand that working out to build muscle speeds metab and allows more consumption ... but a good workout - be it cardio or weights - is going to cause some amount of hunger and fatigue after it.

Besides, what I meant by going to be more docile was going to be less active - not simply fatigued from your workout. I meant - you aren't doing anything near the level of activity for the rest of the day - so why eat your first meal then when it seems you would be more likely to store it as fat ... whereas if you eat it before your workout then you get the nutrients and cals and carbs in - without skipping a meal to add to the metab benefits - as early in the day as possible right before your most intense activity where you will burn just about all of it off.

I always bring a protein shake and a meal replacement bar with me for conumption as soon as I get to the locker room, as well - and I have been doing this for at least 4 years. The bar carbs are about all sugar though, so I'm thinking about brining some complex carbs with me to eat with the shake instead. But, it still makes sense that - even though it is good to consume after - you consume more of your daily ratio before so you still get your daily uptake but you burn more of it off in your workout.



I know what you are saying, but what I said about supplements was really simple - not confused. I am also not really confused on the whole cutting shindig. The ONLY confusion I have been trying to address head on- direct- here - is the cutting theory behind really not eating anything before your morning workout. It seems to go against all the other basic logic of cutting - yet it also seems to be a very common suggestion when cutting ... simply because all of the other logic in cutting is basically portion control to the right caloric uptake and consume most or all of your carbs and cals early in the day when you are most likely to burn them off instead of store them as fat .... yet it is still popular to workout on an empty stomach and then start eating when you are going to be less active. It's just flat out contradictory - yet extremely popular advice - so there must be some theory on why that is most effective .... and I've tried to ask two times now and to be honest - not rude - just addressing a misunderstanding and lack of answer - bris hasn't answered and you just keep saying "ditto" on whatever bris says followed by essentially - "keep it stupidly simple". It leads one to believe that you have no idea what the science is behind the theory of not eating before your workout - but I would be surprised that you guys didn't really understand what you were doing and were just going with the popular advice and still getting good results due to your calorie uptake-burn ratio.

That was my whole main reason for my long post, really, and it still is.

Back to the reason I talked about very simple supplementation AND performance increases that aren't really "supplementation" is because of energy when low on cals/carbs for cutting - because it all comes back to energy when when not consuming anything before a morning workout and being on a low cal and carb diet.

So I mentioned two of the best energy drinks on the market - based on mostly HUGE percentages of B vitamins (4900% in XS and 8333% in B12 - and ENHANCEMENT NOT SUPPLEMENT) with a relatively small jumpstart of 80mg of caffein (which is still not to my liking because I hate stimulants/caffein). I also mentioned that XS comes with decaff now, but I'm not sure how effective it is without the caff.
Then, for energy again, I mentioned A AKG - or Nitric Oxide - very simple hemodilator that tends to increase energy .... and seems to not really be "stimulant" based though I'm not sure .. also an ENHANCEMENT - NOT SUPPLEMENT.
Then, when the whole point for cuting cals/carbs is to cut fat, yet you also lose energy, of course it would be great if you could take something that would help you burn more fat without cutting so many cals/carbs .... yet most of these "fat burners" are just extremely high doses of stimulants - often 200-250+++ mg of caffein ... so to me they are disastrous and stupid no matter how much they help for a while. HOWEVER, I just started reading about Sesamin - the "stimulant free" natural high concentrate lignan extract from sesame seed oil ... AN ENHANCER - NOT SUPPLEMENT ( though it is an oil extract that can be confused with SUPPLEMENTS like Fish Oil/Omega Supps )... and I just wanted to know if you had any experience or knowledge about it ... because it seems that it can help you do things when cutting like not have to be starving throughout the day - not have to skip the morning meal - cheating a bit more every week ... and still getting the same or better results than you were before. So far, the side effects seems to be more regulation/decrease on testosterone to some yet to be measured in control study extent - which won't really bother when cutting - unless it effects your libido too much (but that's a whole different issue) - but there are no lab studies on this theory yet. Also, for gaining - some people are taking this and seem to be figuring ways to gain muscle while using the sesamin - albeit with the theory that it is reducing test - and thanks to the sesamin they are not putting the fat on that they used to with the required cal amounts for gains so when it comes time to cut it is much easier to do it naturally or with some sort of aid. Like I said though, this is just me learing of other's experiences and I wanted to know if either of you knew anything about it. There needs to be more lab work because it sems like it may be something good to take all the time if you want - .... but then again nobody has the conrete lab tests to really know exactly what it is doing to the body beyond speculation from understanding biological science very well that has oviously been effective to enough extent that this is working very well at cutting fat while being natural and stim free. If lab tests say it reduces test too much, maybe natural and enhancement test boosters from squats to supps/enhance "potions" may help ... but the lab tests need to be done to be sure.

PHEW!!!!! Now, can I PLEASE get a REAL answer on the theory behind no meal before workout and how it makes sense when it seems to contradict all the other cutting rules of consuming more early in the day and when you will burn the most?!?!?!? ALSO, PLEASE without telling me to keep it stupidly simple again?!?!?

lol .... All love and just some misunderstanding here .... so please don't take any of this personal!!!

I will do what works for me - and from what I can tell I am already doing it with very simple methods with no added supps/performance enhancers - but I want to improve and understand more. Thanks.
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Well this how I do it. I wake up, take my amino and fat burner w/about 8-10oz of water, brush my teeth, wash my face, put on my gym clothes. Leave for the gym which is about 5mins away from my house. Then hit cardio for about 40-45mins. I take one of those lil 1/2 gallon jugs with me I get threw about half of it before I leave. As soon as I walk in I eat a meal. Usually some egg whites ang lean groundturkey with a serving of oatmeal.

The idea of no meal before your workout is once glycogen stores are depleted because at nite while we sleep our bodies go in to fasting unless you wake up in the middle of the nite to eat. That cardio you hit in the morning on an empty stomach once your in that fat burning mode theres no excess calories to burn only fat.

On (B) if your only working out once a day say in the moring I would. I would lift first then do the cardio afterwards and thats if your cutting. Also eating before and after are just as important.
 
brisland said:
Well this how I do it. I wake up, take my amino and fat burner w/about 8-10oz of water, brush my teeth, wash my face, put on my gym clothes. Leave for the gym which is about 5mins away from my house. Then hit cardio for about 40-45mins. I take one of those lil 1/2 gallon jugs with me I get threw about half of it before I leave. As soon as I walk in I eat a meal. Usually some egg whites ang lean groundturkey with a serving of oatmeal.

The idea of no meal before your workout is once glycogen stores are depleted because at nite while we sleep our bodies go in to fasting unless you wake up in the middle of the nite to eat. That cardio you hit in the morning on an empty stomach once your in that fat burning mode theres no excess calories to burn only fat.

On (B) if your only working out once a day say in the moring I would. I would lift first then do the cardio afterwards and thats if your cutting. Also eating before and after are just as important.
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Thanks bris. I've been reading up on health and fat loss a lot lately and totally missed your post. I was just digging this up to add some of the info I found, but you have mentioned the key point.

A long while back I learned of Ton Venuto and his Burn The Fat Feed The Muscle program - but lost the info.

Well, I was checking up on one of my fave sites: mercola.com . I started doing it to reconsider soy in my diet - and canolo oil as a good fat source - which has lead me to wanting to eliminate both in favor of monos from avocado, virgin olive oil, and my polys from fish oil and CLA for fats ... and mostly Tilapia and Whey powder and good veggies for protein - possibly some Jerky for the road (though saturated fat and sodium need to be watched with jerky, and I haven't found it as cheap as I want yet). This also lead me to mercola advocating no grains in your diet - only veggies, fruits and other lean protein sources from whey, raw milk, raw eggs (I'm not fond of this raw stuff, and I'm concerned with the fat for the most part - not ecoli - but maybe on occasion) and lean meats like fish yet carefully chosen to avoid Mercury issues (which Tilapia does so successfully, along with some certain types of Salmon and more). Which lead me to being very happy to find that veggies I enjoy like cucumbers and broccoli and zucchini are "negative calorie foods" Negative Calorie Foods! Are they for real? . Also happy to see that these are high in protein AND insoluble fiber. Also happy to see that some of my fave fruits, though high in sugar, are "negative calorie foods" like strawberries, raspberries, blueberries etc .... AND raspberries are VERY high in fiber (8g per cup!). All good stuff. Making me feel really good about being able to not only temporarily cut ... but permanently change my eating habits to lower my BF% all year!

On that website I also was happy that I found articles from Tom Venuto, all of which were very good , and I suggest everyone read (look to the bottom right sidebar when vewing the following link - for more of his articles on BathmateR, workouts etc related to weight/fat loss) ... and one specifically touting the benefits of empty stomach morning workouts:
The Secret to Burning Fat up to 300% Faster

The Secret to Burning Fat up to 300% Faster

By Guest Author, Tom Venuto, Competitive Bodybuilder
See right border for more weight loss articles by Tom

When is the best time of day to do your aerobic exercise? The answer is any time! The most important thing is that you just do it. Continuous cardiovascular exercise, such as walking, jogging, stair climbing, or cycling, sustained for at least 30 minutes, will burn body fat no matter when you do it. However, if you want to get the maximum benefits possible from every minute you invest in your workouts, then you should consider getting up early and doing cardio before you eat your first meal - even if you're not a "morning person." Early morning aerobic exercise on an empty stomach has three major advantages over exercising later in the day:

Early in the morning before you eat, your levels of muscle and liver glycogen (stored carbohydrate) are low. If you eat dinner at 7 p.m and you eat breakfast at 7 a.m., that's 12 hours without food. During this 12-hour overnight fast, your levels of glycogen slowly decline to provide glucose for various bodily functions that go on even while you sleep. As a result, you wake up in the morning with depleted glycogen and lower blood sugar - the optimum environment for burning fat instead of carbohydrate. How much more fat you'll burn is uncertain, but some studies have suggested that up to 300% more fat is burned when cardio is done in a fasted, glycogen-depleted state.

So how exactly does this work? It's quite simple, really. Carbohydrate (glycogen) is your body's primary and preferred energy source. When your primary fuel source is in short supply, this forces your body to tap into its secondary or reserve energy source; body fat. If you do cardio immediately after eating a meal, you'll still burn fat, but you'll burn less of it because you'll be burning off the carbohydrates you ate first. You always burn a combination of fat and carbohydrate for fuel, but depending on when you exercise, you can burn a greater proportion of fat relative to carbohydrate. If doing cardio first thing in the morning is not an option for you, then the second best time to do it would be immediately after weight training. Lifting weights is anaerobic (carbohydrate-burning) by nature, and therefore depletes muscle glycogen. That's why a post lifting cardio session has a similar effect as morning cardio on an empty stomach.

The second benefit you'll get from early morning cardio sessions is what I call the "afterburn" effect. When you do a cardio session in the morning, you not only burn fat during the session, but you also continue to burn fat at an accelerated rate after the workout. Why? Because an intense session of cardiovascular exercise can keep your metabolism elevated for hours after the session is over. If you do cardio at night, you will still burn fat during the session, so you definitely benefit from it. However, nighttime cardio fails to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolism drops like a ton of bricks as soon as you go to sleep. While you sleep, your metabolic rate is slower than any other time of the day.

Burning more fat isn't the only reason you should do your cardio early. The third benefit of morning workouts is the "rush" and feeling of accomplishment that stays with you all day long after an invigorating workout. Exercise can become a pleasant and enjoyable experience, but the more difficult or challenging it is for you, the more important it is to get it out of the way early. When you put off any task you consider unpleasant, it hangs over you all day long, leaving you with a feeling of guilt, stress and incompleteness (not to mention that you are more likely to "blow off" an evening workout if you are tired from a long day at work or if your pals try to persuade you to join them at the pub for happy hour.)

You might find it hard to wake up early in the morning and get motivated to workout. But think back for a moment to a time in your life when you tackled a difficult task and you finished it. Didn't you feel great afterwards? Completing any task, especially a physically challenging one, gives you a "buzz." When the task is exercise, the buzz is physiological and psychological. Physiologically, exercise releases endorphins in your body. Endorphins are opiate-like hormones hundreds of times more powerful than the strongest morphine. Endorphins create a natural "high" that makes you feel positively euphoric! Endorphins reduce stress, improve your mood, increase circulation and relieve pain. The "high" is partly psychological too. Getting up early and successfully achieving a small goal kick starts your day and gives you feelings of completion, satisfaction and accomplishment. For the rest of the day you feel happy and you feel less stress knowing that the most difficult part of the day is behind you.

So, you say you're not a morning person? Take heart; neither am I. I can sleep in like you wouldn't believe! But I get up anyway because I know the effort is worth the results. When I have a bodybuilding goal that I am clearly focused on, such as reaching 4% or 5% body fat for a competition, I'm on my Stairmaster for 45 minutes every morning at the crack of dawn without fail. Sure it's a challenge at first, but you know what? After a few short weeks, It's no longer a chore and I'm "in the groove" - and you will be too. Just try it. Make a commitment to yourself to do it for just 21 days. Once those 21 days have gone by, you'll already be leaner and you'll be on your way to making morning workouts a habit that's as natural as brushing your teeth or taking a shower. Once you start getting used to feeling that buzz, you'll become "positively addicted" to it. The more you do it, the more you'll want to do it. Before you know it, early morning cardio will your new habit; you'll be leaner, your metabolism will be faster and you'll feel fantastic all day long!
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So, I think, minus 1 cheat day per week of whatever the hell I want in whatever quantity I want it in ..... I'm going to evolve to a no grain, no soy diet with only the aforementioned "negative calorie" veggies and fruits for carbs, protein and fiber and more protein from whey powder and Tilapia. I'm also going to be more careful about my sodium intake - but I don't think it will be too much of a problem.

For workout: I'm thinking this right now.....

At least 30 minutes of cardio in the morning 3-4 days per week (probably shoot for 4 - MAYBE more but concerned with recovery) with only vitamins and water beforehand (no fat supplements). Followed by almost all of my daily carbs from the veggies and fruits mentioned ... and good portion of protein from whey shake (and the fat supplements like Fish Oil and CLA). Then, straight into weights to help keep muscle (possibly build it if I am really careful with what I eat and when - like this guy who stayed around 4.5% BF this past year and still gain 6-8 lbs of muscle 4.5% Body Fat - Bod Pod Results! | Naturally Ripped Bodybuilding System ) ... which will also help immediately burn all the carbs I just took in. Then - post weights - much less but still some carbs from the same sources ...mostly veggies ... and a whey shake. Then shower and Tilapia, Whey and Water (1 quart per 50lbs of body weight) for the rest of the day ... along with my Fish Oil and CLA .... and maybe a table spoon or two of avocado and virgin olive oil for more good ( mostly monosaturated) fat. Calorie intake according to basica formulas I mentioned ... and the excellent info on BathmateR and activity factors compiled by Tom Venuto at How to Determine Your Body's Daily Calorie Needs .

Also, good sites I found for determining calories/nutrition info for the veggies and fruits - which are often no labeled with such info - are right here:
The Calorie Counter and Calorie Counter Database - Free Online Diet Program .

Cardio 3-4 days per week. Weights - light 3-5 days per week after post cardio meal ... and 1 day intense with extra carb loading - still from mostly veggies (undecided if I should do it on a cardio day or not .... but I suppose I should avoid cardio for max muscle power).

Possibly take N02 (A -AKG /Arginine) 5+ days per week in hopes that it will help the BCAAs in my whey shakes for faster recovery ... and provide for better nutrient/BCAA/ etc etc delivery from hemodilation ... and give some more energy/power without the need of caffein.

I'm also going to start trying to cycle some Sesamin products. I just ordered SesaThin liquid from Avant Labs SesaThin, 3.75oz . But, I'm not sure how long I'll use this because of reports of fatigue and low testosterone as a result. I'm hoping that how I cycle it, gradullly increasing throughout the week - with 2 off days - will help maintain positive effect and minimize the negative.

Really trying to avoid stimulants - especially caffein. Considering looking into more BCAAs in my diet. Possibly also more B12 for energy. I may use decaf XS - but it's really expensive ... so I may also just start crushing B12 pills into my Whey shakes. Not sure. Playing with stuff right now on a very tight time and money budget do to a lot of things I have going on that I am spending a lot of time and money on.

I think I am on the right track, though. I hope others of you that have been watching this thread with obvious intent to get on a similar path will benefit.

Bris, Wes, any comments on what I've said so far that can help me/us out?
Thanks guys. Really appreciate it.
 
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I think the next thing I'm going to be battling is whether to lift before cardio or after.

I like the idea of lifting before because there will be more glycogen depletion for cardio fat burning and less of that type of acid (whatever it's called) that build up in muscle during aerobics and makes it difficult to lift weights due to extreme fatigue. But, I don't like the idea of lifting while already depleted from sleep fast.

However, I also like the idea of lifting immediately AFTER the POST-CARDIO MEAL .... so you get the good carbs,protein and fats that your muscles like IMMEDIATELY before the weights AND you burn most of these off IMMEDIATELY instead of storing them - with the help of you higher metabolic rate from the cardio you just did .... AND then you get that immediate POST-WEIGHT MEAL again to further aid the muscles with the carbs, protein and fat .... but since you already just ate maybe 15-30 minutes before ... you will be less hungry and be able to consume less carbs to possibly be stored for the rest of the day ....and stick with protein and good fats for the rest of the day.

MAYBE I should do BOTH? EXTREMELY light weight pre cardio for further depletion .... which can be done while stretching out for cardio ... and then moderate weight AFTER the POST-CARDIO meal. Seems like you can't lose with that. Then - 1 day per week - a non-cardio, high carb, heavy weight day ... maybe in between 2 rest days?

Your thoughts?
 
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Last but not least, I'd like to add that I understand the depleted glycogen point to enhance fat as fuel point was already made before I kept pressing for more. I apologize that I did not totally understand how that fit into the equation of all the other common fat loss advice. I needed gaps to be filled in. The article by Tom Venuto that I posted filled those gaps for me.
 
P.P.

I find your daily food regimen quite similar to mine, except I'm not into body building. I am simply trying to keep my blood sugar under control. But your food choices are dynamite!!! For me, this a life-time food plan. I just have to keep each meal to a much lower caloric level. I also eat 6 to 8 small meals a day with the higher caloric intake during the morning.
 
goinfor11x7 said:
P.P.

I find your daily food regimen quite similar to mine, except I'm not into body building. I am simply trying to keep my blood sugar under control. But your food choices are dynamite!!! For me, this a life-time food plan. I just have to keep each meal to a much lower caloric level. I also eat 6 to 8 small meals a day with the higher caloric intake during the morning.
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Thanks bro. Hopefully this will give me the body I want. I plan on making this a life-time food plan as well - but I can't go without my 1 cheat day per week .... and I will still binge drink alcohol on occasion (love some good wine and liqour). I hope that eventually I grow to prefer the taste of these foods over the high sugar content in other foods. I am already starting to notice more sensitivity to sugar that actually repels my interest.

All you should have to do is add the appropriate exercise at the appropropriate time and you should get ripped - if you aren't already - which if I recall form your pics you were more avg or 20+%BF than ripped.

Best.
 
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