If Jesus would return?

iwant8inches said:

Jesus is basically just going to do away with them because they believe in something different/place their faith in something else?

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I hate to say it, but yes. I don't know exactly what happens to people who don't have the chance, period, to learn about Jesus, but if they have a chance to learn and don't take it, they do go directly to Hell for believing in something different.

As for those verses that Kraft gave us, I think that is mostly a guildelines of what you would do if you really were sorry and wanted Christ's salvation. You should always try to keep within the commandments, and keeping in with them is always a good thing to do. To set an example for others, and to live a good life yourself. If you truly are forgiven and want to live a life under Christ, you will want to follow those commandments. I think the basic meaning of those verses is usually "If you want into Heaven and are accepted by Christ, don't start screwing random people and killing people, because if you do that, you aren't truly sorry or truly forgiven." That's my take on it, anyway.

Here's an interesting note, though: I don't know exactly what verse it is, but there is a verse that says something along the lines of "Only this must you do to enter into My kingdom; accept the lord Jesus Christ as your saviour, and ask unto him for forgiveness". Can't remember the exact quote. now, I'm sure people will start saying, "Well, if the bible is true, why does it contradict itself?" Remember, God Himself didn't write the bible. People did. There might be some slight contradictions. It may not even be that the people that wrote those verses, Kraft, meant it to mean different thant he verse I wrote above; simply that the way they phrased it makes it sound that way. Remember, it's been translated from Greek, to Latin, then to King James English. There's a chance some of the finer points of their language may have slightly changed the sentence structure during the translations.

Kraft said:

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

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These really seem to get a slightly different message than the other verses. In these, it says just : Love God, and love others. As in, don't do evil things. In MarR 11:25-26, it says that if you forgive, you will be forgiven. The bible sends a lot of different messages; honestly, I believe that you should accept Jesus into your life, and you will go to heaven, because if you truly accept Jesus, then you will want to live a life under Him, and so you probalby won't break commandments all that often. It all ties together, I believe.

There is no point in the original question unless we debate whether or not God exists.

I ask the question 'Is there a God?'.

1) Proof that God exists:

The philosophical explaination of God in relation to a human is- Something than which nothing greater can be concieved.

Now bearing this in mind it is obvious that we can have a concept of this thing than which nothing greater can be concieved (i.e. God, perfection) in our minds.

That then leads to the fact that if we can understand that this concept could exist, even if only as a concept, then it must truely exist because it would be greater if it truely existed and would therefore contradict itself if it existed only as a concept.

It is not possible for it to exist only as a concept because, as I stated before, it would be greater if it truely existed.

This proves that God exists because if He didn't then He would not be perfect and we understand that the concept of perfection exists even if we are unable to fully understand it.

2) Proof that God does not exist:

God is supposedly He who created the heavens and the earth. i.e. everything.

This is quite easy to discredit because it is entirely impossible for nothing to come from something or for something to come from nothing.

Therefore God could not have created the heaven and the earth (everything) because they would have to come from nothing.

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So my opinion is (along with Pascal) that if there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible to us, and that therefore we cannot expect to know either what He is or if He is.

I think that those that claim that God does or does not exist do it on illogical grounds. That truth is that it is impossible for us to ever know.

The question of what would happen to Jesus in todays society is therefore void.

Anyway.....back to Penis Enlargement.

I believe 100% in God, and do it in logical terms. They may not seem logical to you, but I've seen all the proof I need of God. Basically, you can never truly PROVE that God exists, but you can KNOW. You can't prove it becuase God isn't really a physical presence on Earth. Just about everything he does can be explained by rational means because He doesn't just flick his finger when He wants something destroyed, He makes a tornado destroy it, or etc etc. God isn't a physical being on a cloud way above us that can reach down and influence; He's an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent entity that we truly could never comprehend. Even Christians (true Christians who understand what God is all about) would never claim to understand God or know what His plan is or what He wants for the world. All we can know is what He wants from us, and what He tells us.

Also, if you say that God can't exist because you can't create something from nothing, then where did that initial 'something' come from? The eternal question of "Well, if the Big Bang created the universal, what caused the Big Bang?" still sits there, waiting to be answered. And yes, honestly, when people say, "Well, then where did God come from?" My only answer is, "He always has been there, and always will be there." "But what made him?"

This chain of questioning is pointless, because I could never know the answer. Something that has simply always existed and was never actually 'created' is virtually impossible for the human mind to truly wrap itself around. That's why, although I know it's an infuriating answer, all I can say is: "Take in on Faith."

Andithilion said:

As for those verses that Kraft gave us, I think that is mostly a guildelines of what you would do if you really were sorry and wanted Christ's salvation... I think the basic meaning of those verses is usually "If you want into Heaven and are accepted by Christ, don't start screwing random people and killing people, because if you do that, you aren't truly sorry or truly forgiven."

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Right, so you agree that it isn't simply belief, one must act aswell. Perhaps the messages were delivered to different crowds, those that were already following the law, were told only belief was necessary, while those that were not were given a longer message to curb their behaviour?

As it says the way is narrow, I think you are taking too easy an approach. I take it as saying, believe in Jesus, and ask for forgiveness and follow the commandments he gave or end up in hell. Oddly, if it was simply belief that Jesus died for your sins, could atheists that believe a man named Jesus died and thought it was for the "sins of mankind" get into heaven?

If you can't comprehend your god, why do you speak of it? How can you make any positive assertions about a being with omni/unlimited attributes?

As for "where did the something come from?", that begs the question. It assumes it came from somewhere. I find the most reasonable conclusion to be that existence always has been in some form. The big bang seen as the beginning of our current universe/portion of the cosmos which arose from a prior state (can't find the article, but string theory has suggested this). This also changes if multiverse theory is brought into play, Smolin or chaotic inflation model, where big bangs arise from black hole (which are then shielded by the event horizon) or a multifaceted universe with some regions collapsing and inflating. Why shouldn't we posit a deity? Because building from what we know to what we don't know makes sense, adding another mystery doesn't forward our understanding. We know existence exists, have evidence of black holes, of expansion, etc. If you have a new hypothesis or see some tests that could be conducted to forward modern cosmology I'm all for it. Build and destroy, question and test reality.

As to "what made God", I see it much like Douglas Adams. Early man was able to build things and alter his enviroment to suit his needs, and thought himself the only creature able to do this. Through analogy he sees the world and asks "then who made this? It must have been someone like me, but smarter and much more powerful". Possibly thinking his actions influenced nature, they might sacrifice some pleasure or perform a praise of the anthropomorphic god, thinking they will be rewarded with a good hunt. Different gods for different cultures, rituals become traditions, events become mythologized...


TomdW,

1) Proof that God exists

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Wow, hard to believe that argument has been around for almost a millennium. I highly doubt you have a coherent concept of what this perfect being is or that it matched up with other people's conceptions. A counter is the "greatest conceivable island".

When I ask a theist what is god, nearly all I get back is unintelligible, how a solid concept could be built from this I do now know. On another front, Kant criticized this argument as existence can be seen not as a property, but as the conditional that makes properties possible. So the attributes are present if the thing exists, and are not if it doesn't. The formation of the argument is open to many other assertions. Replace God with Zeus or Vishnu, or define something else as the greatest X that can be conceived, does that mean all these things exist? Another problem is that the argument assumes that internal conceptions must in some way match reality. The human mind can combine things and extrapolate on them, many ideas have no corresponding object in reality.

I haven't heard any good arguments for the existence of god(s), most boil down to arguments to ignorance, special pleading or anecdotes.

We never claim to have proof, by the way. Or at least, I don't. Like I said, faith is what is most important.

And if an Athiest believes all of those things, he'll go to Hell. If he asks Jesus for forgiveness sincerely, then I'll be giving him cheesecake in heaven. And after you've done this, this defines you as a Christian. If you still don't believe God is real, then you weren't sincere about asking for forgiveness. Remember: Wanting forgiveness and sincerely asking for it are two different things. You can't sincerely ask for forgiveness for something you don't think is there. If you believe it enough to ask for forgiveness, and do ask, then you're a Christian. In my opinion, though. If other people define Athiesm differently, then I suppose it would be possible for an Athiest to go to Heaven.

As for the theory of how everything began, and when Kraft says, "Why shouldn't we posit a diety? Because adding another mystery doesn't foward our understanding." Perhaps finding understanding isn't the highest priority we can have. But listen: Let me say one last thing before I end this post.

I understand how it can seem so incredibly inane to be a Christian. I really can. I used to think it was stupid. It seems like we are a bunch of nuts, trying to enforce these rules that, while they make sense, we can't seem to accept they are just common sense, not the rule of some Divine presence. It seems like we worship something that makes no sense. A big, omnipotent presence that can control everything, but still lets horrible things happen, and that we have no explanation for. But, like I've always said. It's all about faith. If you pursue God, he will show you the Way. I'm no theologist, I don't have all the answers, but I can do my best to answer them.

As for "I haven't heard any good arguments for the existence of god(s), most boil down to arguments to ignorance, special pleading or anecdotes.". I haven't seen any good proof that he doesn't exist. We can't prove he's real, you can't prove he's not real. And I know that there is in fact a different type of necessity in proving those two, but that's the big difference between athiests and Christians; we don't need proof to believe he's there. No matter how many times you say, "There's no proof!" We'll just say, "So? We believe anyway."

I know that's infuriating and seems ignorant, but that's just the way it is.

If it's just faith, how do you know that your faith is correct? I'm sure you have some other critieria. Last I heard there were approximately 30,000 religions, and if faith is what makes something true, all of them are true.

Andithilion said:

As for "I haven't heard any good arguments for the existence of god(s), most boil down to arguments to ignorance, special pleading or anecdotes.". I haven't seen any good proof that he doesn't exist. We can't prove he's real, you can't prove he's not real. And I know that there is in fact a different type of necessity in proving those two, but that's the big difference between athiests and Christians; we don't need proof to believe he's there. No matter how many times you say, "There's no proof!" We'll just say, "So? We believe anyway."

I know that's infuriating and seems ignorant, but that's just the way it is.

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If I happened not to exist, what evidence would there be? Lack of a social insurance #, lack of a birth certificate, lack of pictures, writing, etc. The negative position is the default when evidence is lacking. The burden of proof is the one making the positive assertion. If I say there is a tea cup orbiting saturn, and you don't believe it. I can't say, "well it exists until you prove it doesn't". Taking a skeptical approach one would ask what reason(s) and evidence I have to thinking the cup is there.

Actually certian god concepts can be proven false, as they contain contradictions, similar to a square circle. Take the invisible pink unicorn for example, if it's invisible it can't be pink. The attibutes given to the many have no referant to reality. I really have no clue what an immaterial, timeless, non-finite, being, with unconstrained power is. Concepts I'm familiar with have limits, things are matter-energy, exist in time (temporal order), etc. So a being described negatively gives me no clue into what it is.

Other theistic concepts the attributes of the god(s) make predictions that can be tested against reality.

If being X with attributes Y exists, then a, b, etc. are entailed. That such do not occur it is reasonable to dismiss the existance of being X. This is many times used as a direct inductive argument from evil. As if a loving being exists that possesses power to stop natural evils (tsunamis, floods, famine, disease, and so on), but does not stop them, we can conclude that the being described as loving does not exist. Though the full argument is much longer.

I understand how it can seem so incredibly inane to be a Christian. I really can.

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Actually, when I was a christian, it all seemed to make sense. No clue I would end up thinking like this... Looking back, I was forced into the religion really young, never had a choice about it and nearly my entire close and extended famliy are fundamentalist christians. I was a strong believer and took it very seriously.

Now, it does seem odd all the things I used to believe. Especially the 'divine plan', that God had to sacrifice Himself, to Himself, in order to placate Himself to change a rule He made, to save His creation from a torture He created, and He will return one day to us, even though He's present everywhere anyway???

I'm actually enjoying this, no worries.

Faith must be based on facts. GS

Kraft said:

The burden of proof is the one making the positive assertion.

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Actually, it's not. Because I don't feel the need to prove his existance, because my faith allows me to believe in Him without proof. As for the "faith making all 30,000 religions true", no. It means that people believe in them. And each and every one of them, who have true faith, would tell me I'm wrong, that they're right. And I would say I'm right, they're wrong. Faith is believing in your religion, regardless of what others think.

So...people having a greater purpose is pointless then? Many people believe in some type of god, and have some type of faith. There is always something driving someone. Most people in general, look towards the future. They get a job, because next week they are going to get paid. You are going to school because It will educate you, and then you will go to college. College will help you land your career. It seems to me, that for the most of people, they have some type of ultimate plan in life. To get rich, to be healthy, to have and hold ect....some people don't want life to ever end. I mean seriously, you work so hard in your life, do so many things, wouldn't you want to live forever? You actually accept that you just die for nothing and die forever? If there isn't a heaven, or a god, and nothing else comes after this life, then is all of this pointless? Don't we all have a better purpose? Are we just like the rest of the wild animals acting on instinct and whatever feels right? The whole discussion is pointless. Science says that matter cannot be destroyed or created. So, everything that is and ever was, was always here....forever...and yet we find it hard to believe there is a God and He was here forever. Amazing.

German Stallion said:

Faith must be based on facts. GS

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That's not true at all, actually.

Talk about an exploding thread. :D

Juggers said:

So...people having a greater purpose is pointless then?

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Is there a single meaning of life? I don't think so, people find their own meaning. Be it having a family, getting rich, helping people, pleasure etc.

I mean seriously, you work so hard in your life, do so many things, wouldn't you want to live forever? You actually accept that you just die for nothing and die forever? If there isn't a heaven, or a god, and nothing else comes after this life, then is all of this pointless?

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Live forever in what condition? I wouldn't want to live forever in horrendous pain. I would like to keep observing the world and universe to see where things go, but this desire doesn't mean it's actually going to happen. In the grand sense of their being some purpose we need to try and find and then live up to it, I don't think there is. I've accepted that when I die it's over, you get one shot and better make the most of it.

The whole discussion is pointless. Science says that matter cannot be destroyed or created. So, everything that is and ever was, was always here....forever...and yet we find it hard to believe there is a God and He was here forever. Amazing.

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It was here, in some form of matter-energy, not exactly as it is. Saying God was around forever isn't parsimonious. An extremely complex being, of unintelligible properties just happened to exist, and this also entails some supernatural realm (whatever that would be). Concluding that matter and energy that we know exist, have existed in the past, doesn't seem a stretch to me. The existing forever isn't the problem, it's the 'concept' of God.


GS, that's a very different definition of faith from what I've heard. Unless you ment it that you think your faith (belief) in Christianity is based on facts.

Originally Posted by Kraft
The burden of proof is the one making the positive assertion.


Actually, it's not.

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That was in response to your sentance on 'I can't prove he does and you can't prove he doesn't'. But I see that if you admit it's faith that you believe, I can't exactly demand evidence. I would hope you analyze your position, but if you're not harming anyone and not trying to convince me, there's nothing much to do.

Juggers said:

So...people having a greater purpose is pointless then? Many people believe in some type of god, and have some type of faith. There is always something driving someone. Most people in general, look towards the future. They get a job, because next week they are going to get paid. You are going to school because It will educate you, and then you will go to college. College will help you land your career. It seems to me, that for the most of people, they have some type of ultimate plan in life. To get rich, to be healthy, to have and hold ect....some people don't want life to ever end. I mean seriously, you work so hard in your life, do so many things, wouldn't you want to live forever? You actually accept that you just die for nothing and die forever? If there isn't a heaven, or a god, and nothing else comes after this life, then is all of this pointless? Don't we all have a better purpose? Are we just like the rest of the wild animals acting on instinct and whatever feels right? The whole discussion is pointless. Science says that matter cannot be destroyed or created. So, everything that is and ever was, was always here....forever...and yet we find it hard to believe there is a God and He was here forever. Amazing.

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Yes, but dosen't Jesus in fact say that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven? You can't take your possesions with you, now can you?

Yes...he did...and the rich man turned down the offer....My point was, we do so many things for so many reasons....one thing leads to another. Things are usually pointless if there isn't a reason behind them.

Andithilion said:

That's not true at all, actually.

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Yes it is. Blind faith is dangerous. Example, we believe in the resurrection because of fact. We believe in the Bible because of fact. We believe in the Diety of Christ because of fact. If I believe something because I feel good, I am in trouble. Illustration. We can have faith in a higher power, and that higher power might be a rabbit foot or the tree in the back yard. Nope, our faith is in a risen, coming again saviour. We believe in things we don't know about because our faith is in what is truth. Jesus has proven he is reliable and he is truth. GS

I think we're kind of talking past each other GS. Faith to me is a claim of belief, without evidence or even against available evidence. To have faith when one has facts doesn't make sense as you are now in the realm of knowledge not belief. You have concluded the that the Bible et al. are true based off of facts, so there is no need for faith.

Faith in the sense of, "he's of the Muslim faith", is acceptance of some doctrine. With this saying faith is based on fact can make sense. If certain propositions within the religion are confirmed and that is why you accept them "faith is based on fact" is coherant. However, with the prior definition and the one intended, it's, "claims made with no evidence or against evidence are based on fact" a clear contradiciton.

I know what you are saying, and I agree, but so many want to believe something with not a fact to substantiate it. There are two words here, faith as to belief meaning a body of doctrine or position and faith as to what I deposit my faith in. Hebrews says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. But it does have evidence. I believe in God, because I have seen, have evidence that He exists. Thus it is faith based on Facts. I believe in the Bible, because I have evidence it is true and thus my faith is based on facts. This goes on and on. So many today have faulty faith. Their faith is based on man's set of rules or body of belief that some church set up with no regard for truth. GS

My views come down to one phrase, "The Great I AM".

I was raised in a Christian home, went to church three times a week for 18 years. I did not get the true meaning during all that time. Went out on my own for many years. Received an education in science. Then actually began to consider, and then truly study these questions. I had many converstions with other scientists who are believers. BTW, the vast majority of people with BS degrees that I know are believers.

I wish I could have believed solely on faith originally, but I could not. A sin. I had to work through the questions, and meld questions of religion and science. After working through the questions, I came to truly believe in God.

I worked through the Bible, considered spontaneous generation and evolution, other scientific theories. I came to see how the Bible contains a template for answering every question. I do not believe these questions are something that someone else can help you with to any great extent. You must find the path on your own.

I become more and more amazed that a book written between 1900 and 5-6000 years ago could be so wise. How is this possible? How could this aged book be so accurate concerning any topic I card to look into? Though I believe in science, and all that it pertains to, I realize how infantile we are in regards to science. How little we truly know. Then I learned how the Bible can bridge the gaps of our ignorance.

How big is the universe? How about the universe behind that? What encompasses all the universes, if anything? What are atoms made of? What is truly the smallest unit of matter? How many people live on the electron of a single hydrogen atom?

The extremes, big and small, young and old, infinite time, size, matter, all explain God. Many cannot understand these questions, or comtemplate possible answers. Even more difficult, life. How is this possible? Functioning organic matter. Wow. What are the odds.

If you can define the bounds of space and time, then I can listen to arguements that limit or deny God.

I do not believe in finites anymore: space, time, or any restraint on any dimension. Outside the box. I do believe in God, The Great I AM, and Jesus Christ, his son. I believe if you truly study, God is much easier to believe in than anything else in which you could put your faith.

Please realize: To NOT believe in God also requires faith. Hehe.

Bigger

Good points Bib. It is true that whatever we choose to believe it is based on faith for the simple reason that we rely on our perceptions of space and time. So when we look at a red cup and believe that it really is a red cup then we are having faith in our perceptions of that cup i.e. sight, smell, feel, etc.

Above all religious debate I personally believe that it is the most important thing to care for other creatures. Not to fight or have wars and to generally try to be genuinely kind.

If all people observed this as of utmost importance then the world would be a lot better place to live. I also think that this is very much in keeping with what God wants.

I am not sure of the exact figures but I understand that religious disputes have caused a lot of wars and fighting and I believe that this goes directly against the very point of religion.

The human race generally needs to become more open minded about other peoples beliefs. Any belief however true is not worth fighting over for the reason that the act of fighting would demoralize the religious beliefs. I think that it is arrogant for humans to judge what is right in the name of God and then fight for it.

God does not need anyone fighting for Him.