If Jesus would return?

Juggers, have you read Proverbs recently? I remeber it advocating a lot of child abuse. Beat your kids, even if they cry, don't worry they won't die. Beat them so they can be wise. Beat your slaves, don't use words. Don't rely on your own understanding.

Kraft said:

Juggers, have you read Proverbs recently? I remeber it advocating a lot of child abuse. Beat your kids, even if they cry, don't worry they won't die. Beat them so they can be wise. Beat your slaves, don't use words. Don't rely on your own understanding.

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It is one of my favorite books...and I can assure you that those things are not in proverbs. All people go by nowadays is heresy..."hey isn't this in the Bible"....and all of a sudden they believe it....no you have to sit down and read it your self. And since when where people born with understanding Kraft? No, we get understanding by reading things, listening to people, ect.

yeah that's all true juggers(what you said that is), but I believe we have something called intelligence or the ability to understand things. I don't know why people bother with this stuff because it always ends up nowhere. It's interesting to think about and discuss to a point, but like you suggest there's too much ignorance. But yeah...we are born with the ability to understand albeit some of us with a higher capacity than others. So maybe that is what he meant regardless of his point. Your point about his own point pretty much cancel each other out and the discussion and thus the thread has been sidetracked. Carry on though because I mean the answer to what would happen to Jesus if he returned probably would be similar to what supposedly happened to him (at least the way he was treated and perceived) when he was here the first time.

Please read it more carefully then. Beating your kids (19:18; 23:13-14; 29:15, etc.) . Beat your slaves instead of using words (29:19). Don't rely on your own understanding, ie. follow the bible blindly (3:5).

Don't know where you got that I advocate inborn knowledge from...

yes....to chasten the child if he is becomming evil....just like all the other passages. Another word for slave used is servant. You are thinking that the bible advicated just beating your child? No, it is saying that and undiciplined child is a discrace to its mother...just like today, who wants an undisiplined child? There is no negative connotations the way you make it seem.

So you see nothing wrong with the advice that beating your kids with a rod is fine for correction? Also, not holding back because "it won't kill them" and not stopping because they are crying are fine aswell?

I'm aware that some translations use servant in place of slave. It seems to soften passages.

If you read the Old testament, God makes killing common practice. And all those "fanatics" out there use "God" as an excuse for their hateful crimes. The Muslims did when they colonized Europe. The Christians did when they mounted their Crusades to get the tomb of Christ. What about India and Pakistan? Bush's "God told me to strike at Saddam". The Inqusition. Cypress. Northern Ireland. Almost every war was waged in the belief of "God". The scriptures are usually twisted, and these people pick different meanings from them.

Good point Kal-el. However....its like everything else. They are using God or the scriptures for their evil doings. I could kill in your name Kal-el, or lets say you wrote a book, I can say its because your book made me do it...its just excuses. It so happens that the influence of God and the Bible are a bit more impacting. Just because people are killing in the name of God or the bible doesn't mean that the two are bad...its the people that are screwed up.

Juggers said:

Good point Kal-el. However....its like everything else. They are using God or the scriptures for their evil doings. I could kill in your name Kal-el, or lets say you wrote a book, I can say its because your book made me do it...its just excuses. It so happens that the influence of God and the Bible are a bit more impacting. Just because people are killing in the name of God or the bible doesn't mean that the two are bad...its the people that are screwed up.

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Are you implying George Bush is all screwed up? He must be if that's the case. And Pat Robertson? C'mon calling for an assasination, is that Christian? Who would Jesus bomb?

I am sure I don't know as much about current history as you do...nor do I know as much about the president as you do, even though I should. All I can say is I am not satisfied with his current decisions...I cant even fathom what It would be like to be president. If he is Christian, I hope he realizes the image he is radiating to everyone.

Kraft said:

Don't rely on your own understanding, ie. follow the bible blindly (3:5).

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Note how it's just your interpretation to follow the bible blindly. But, even if that is the case, that's kind of the way it is. The Devil might put things in your way to try and change your path, to try and make you think the bible is wrong. Other people may tell you it is wrong. What it's saying is that God knows a hell of a lot more than you do, so trust in him.


As for beating children..."spare the rod, spoil the child" isn't exactly appropriate, but I find that sparing a child some sort of punisHydromaxent OTHER THAN TIME OUTS AND THAT BULLSHIT tends to spoil. There are exceptions. Let me name this example, though: My drama teacher. Her child is a spoiled brat, oh my God. It infuriates me. My teacher tries time-outs and taking away toys, but her child just gets violent with her, yells at her, and disobeys her constantly. It enrages me, but she refuses to EVER do ANYTHING but "time-outs", and she even just doesn't punish her child sometimes. There are exceptions, but I find corporal punisHydromaxent to be the most effective way to discipline a young child. I'm not saying beating is the key, but spankings I think are necessary.

Juggers said:

I am sure I don't know as much about current history as you do...nor do I know as much about the president as you do, even though I should. All I can say is I am not satisfied with his current decisions...I cant even fathom what It would be like to be president. If he is Christian, I hope he realizes the image he is radiating to everyone.

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For the record, The President is not a Christian. I don't care what he says. He is a member to a couple powerful fraternaties (if you want to call them that) and in those frats Jesus is frowned upon. If you swear loyalty to one which he has done, he can call himself a Christian on camera and it is just to get the Christians to support the actions of his bosses.

They are not the Presidents decisions. I'd be surprised if he made any decisions at all. He is the most blatantly obvious President in our history.

If Jesus did come back or whatever, what colour would he be?

This is futile, I'm done debating religious issues.

Jesus would probably be white, since he was a hebrew in the bible. Also, how do you -know- that Bush isn't a Christian? Have you asked him and heard his answer? You ever thought maybe he just was still a Christian in those fraternities, and they let it slide? I really doubt they said, "Abandon your Lord and Savior or you can't join!"

Also, Kraft, we're not debating to a point so much as just discussing things. Technically, everything we're doing is futile, because no one is going to win, but that's not the goal. This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread.

I know that it's not an actual debate, but when people say that anything that goes against the bible is the from "the devil" and the bible is absolutely true, there is no point in having a rational discussion. Even if I show you verses of terrible things done in the bible, I'm sure you can warp it to somehow be "for good" or the that I'm taking it "out of context". I'm not a great writer, and I'm definately no Carl Sagan, I doubt I can make people start questioning their beliefs. I've had real debates before about religious things and they were useless as well, unless the person hold their belief based on reasons and evidence they will just say "it's faith" and move on even if you destroy all their arguments.

To the OT, if Jesus was to return (given all that entails), I'd say nearly everyone would go to hell. 4 billion non-christians, then within the christian community many just say they are Christian, then there are other requirements stated in the bible (keeping the commandments, etc.). I'd guess >90% of the christian population would also go to hell.

I'm not worried, I see the bible as the work of people writing based off of contemporary myth and understanding of the world.

That's why you can ask us questions, and we answer. Only if we don't know the answer at all will we say, "It's just Faith." If I know the answer, I'll give it to you, even if it doesn't make sense.

By the way, you don't have to keep the commandments to go to heaven. You just have to accept Jesus as your savior. But I'd still say most people who say they are Christians haven't even done that, they were just born into Christianity and have no real concept of it.

But yeah, I can see where it would get annoying, honestly. I mean, if it's basically like if I were talking to a scientest about things like quantum physics, and when I asked him something he didn't know, he said, "Oh well, Einstein knew the answer." I'm sorry you can't keep in the discussion with us, though, because surprisingly enough, it's stayed civil so far. I would say, "Stay in it for the answers you do get."

I think that it is impossible for any of us to say what would happen to Him.

Not really impossible...I mean, the bible says that Jesus won't return until He is directly setting up his kingdom. So, if you take the bible for it's word (which I do, being a Christian and all), that means He's going to come, wash away all the sinners and non-Christians, and set up His kingdom. We won't really have time to do anything to Him, except worship Him.

so there are people out there of other faiths that don't really have a chance at learning or understanding the Christian faith that you follow and Jesus is basically just going to do away with them because they believe in something different/place their faith in something else? I mean I'm all for collecting knowledge that has been tested and researched in various ways and organizing it to the point of accessibility, but it's a bit too harsh for me to believe in something like that without some sort of reference other than written words interpreted through the ages and preached often by hypocrites. I believe in the existence of God, but some of this stuff just seems to primitive and simplistic. For all it's promise and gratification in "knowing" there is a God and that my religion is good and righteous there are too many irrational reasons for what God wants us to do for him or at least it seems that way seeing as how we are only humans with limitations.

Andithilion said:

By the way, you don't have to keep the commandments to go to heaven. You just have to accept Jesus as your savior. But I'd still say most people who say they are Christians haven't even done that, they were just born into Christianity and have no real concept of it.

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I said I wouldn't, but here I am back again...
In certain passages I agree is does say one must accept Jesus to get into heaven, however in others verses keeping the law, good acts, forgiving others and a number of the commandments are mentioned.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Other places faith (Rom 3), of simply believing and being baptised are listed are said ot be the requirements (but that one doesn't really count, it's included in Mark 16:9-20 which aren't in early manuscripts AFAIK and thought to be later additions).