9/11 Mysteries

Reber187 said:

s'up people.

thought i'd chip in coz i love this shit...

9/11 = 'false flag' terrorism, it's been a slieght of hand for years. Genuine terrorism seldom exists. the elected government create a problem then offer their solutions which always result in citizens relinquishing their liberties/freedoms in the name of security(incrementalism). "control out of chaos". Hitler and his cronies were the trailblazers(Riechstag fire) this is now the familiar format.

if this shit intrests you, you should really take a peek into the whys? and see just how far the rabbit hole goes... Blame the mother fuckin' super bankers; Rothchild et al.

9/11 is indeed al[CIA]-da at work... if you'll bear with me i'll state what i think is the plainest smoking gun of 9/11(i do love this shit)

world trade centre 7 -

search the net for wtc7 to witness the most blatent controlled demolition known to man, and couple that with the irrefutible facts that hundreds of sites offer and you're already asking questions... but heres what its really about...

Larry Silverstein.

this guy is globle elite(New World Order) no bones about it. worth billions. one of the biggest real estate investors/developers in the US. he was the lease holder of wtc1, wtc2 and wtc7, the only 3 buildings that collapsed on 9/11. 7 weeks before 9/11 Larry secured the lease of wtc1 & wtc2 in a deal for aroundabout $3.2 billion. this was the 1st time in its 31 year history that ownership changed hands. he insured the properties and now stands to gain $5billion in coverage.
now thats a tidy sum for fuck all work and a shed load of "luck"!

remember, in the entire history(thousands) of steel frame buildings burning and collapsing as a result of fire a mere 3 have been recorded... and we know which ones they are.

here's the money shot, and for me the evidence that 9/11 was an inside job of sorts:

if i say to you to "pull it" when refering to a building, what do you think that means? i know what it means and its a universal term.

on a PBS doc, Larry "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

in construction "pull it" is used by EVERYBODY when talking demolition!!!

it would take a crack team of super-pro's at least 2 weeks to prep & rig a 47 storey building for a sucessful demolition... what is being layed on the table is that this was done in the few hours after the 1st plane strike. FUCK OFF!!! NOT IMPROBABLE, IMPOSSIBLE.

this is just the surface. wana know more and i'll point you in the right direction. if you have read the above i hope you do something with it.

im done.


keep pushing

Click to expand...

I read the first few posts and felt sick, but happy to see someone's in the know

velimirovich -

that was quite a flimsey post.

if you feel like burning some time and reading onwards you'll see that me and stridge have been slogging this out for a while.

wtc7 has been the central focus, and between us i think we've unearthed a number of holes that have riled us en route(conspiracy and non) and tried to fill them.

since our face offs i have reevaluated my Larry Silverstien stance coz im not certain in my own mind why he would have been actively involved. when analyzing the finer financial aspects this appears markedly not prudent... im not saying he wasn't, but i need more now.

i do still believe wtc7 was felled by the intervention of man, not fire, and will always believe this until proven otherwise. i guess only the wtc7 NIST report can change my opinion on the matter.

eitherway, stridge has fought his corner and it might be interesting for yourself to browse through his material.


keep pushing

Most of you are embarassingly stupid. Stop already.

Baraka said:

In hindsight, it's so easy to see that what happened on 9/11 was a pre-planned domestic operation, that claims to the contrary are just downright sili. sili! I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how people can cling to the most irrational arguments when trying to justify the official myth. There are so many legitimate scientific questions surrounding what happened on that day, it's ridiculous. Yet they all go completely unanswered. Especially anything concerning the 3 building collapses, something that's unprecedented in the history of the world. Ever single credentialed person who's come forward to counter the official bunk- and there are many of them- has lost their job and had their reputation destroyed. Purposefully destroyed. Few others are brave enough to come forward in fear of being targeted and having the same thing happen to them.

Different standards- much lower standards- of truth and the law are being applied to 9/11 compared with any other crime or event. That's why this problem exists. If 9/11 were treated as any other crime- war crime or otherwise- then the truth would be known by now. Unfortunately, people's emotions are clouding their judgement, the truth is being willfully supressed and a fucked up/controlled media complex is constantly fueling the fire and propagating the myth. Yet, despite all this, the truth will eventually be known. This is because WAY too many people are affected by this coverup. It isn't just a simple assassination, which affects really only the person killed and their family. This affects nearly 3000 people and their families. And the families are still fighting for the truth. Every day.

I'm done. There are so many sites which detail all this stuff scientifically, I don't even know where to start. I guess just head to a (scientifically vetted) site like http://911research.wtc7.net/ and start reading. There's a lot of bullshit and disinformation out there, too. Don't fall for it.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

Well, I would like to just say that there was foreknowledge of the very real possibiblity that this event would happen. That's enough for me to suggest that if people had an inkling that the events could happen and it is apparent they did next to nothing to prevent it then those same people might have done as much for a reason. If someone was apart of the overall job of 9/11 they would never come forward because they thought it was for the GREATER GOOD or if they did something to facilitate the events, but were not in the know just a pawn then something would happen to them if they attempted to come forward. Not only that, but some of the "tens of thousands" (don't know how anyone came up with that number) of individuals quite possibly would have NO reason to care that this plan if executed correctly would kill innocent U.S. civilians. That is an assumption many would make because they have a degree of patriotism especially U.S. citizens, but I'm sure plenty of those involved wouldn't even care about the victims' homeland.

Wouldn't you think that there would be highly trained individuals involved with this plan that would have expertise not available to civilians? Also, even if there were tens of thousands of people involved why assume that all of them would know what was going on? The people that we can safely say had foreknowledge of the plan for 9/11 are the very people that ignored intelligence reports to begin with. What we do know for sure is that IT HAPPenis EnlargementNED! We can't know every detail that happened on that day, but what we can say for sure is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE when it comes to the explanation as to who was responsible for the attacks. The problem is that the question of who is almost impossible to answer for it would take a massive formal independent investigation (which should have happened right after the event) and the alternative to the what part is something that is very hard for people to even consider. Add all that with the fact that the official story we've been given has to be THE BIGGEST PIECE OF CRAP and SLAP TO THE FACE/KICK TO THE PUBLIC'S STOMACH in our country's history and you just can't believe what anyone has to say that is in line with the official report. If you aren't still asking questions that remain inadequately answered then you've given up on your people.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport

The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) is set to conclude its investigation of the World Trade Center complex by analyzing if bombs brought down WTC 7, the 47 story skyscraper that was not hit by a plane yet collapsed in a controlled demolition style in under seven seconds. NIST today released a page on its website that is intended to answer skeptic’s questions about why the towers and WTC 7 were the first and only three buildings to collapse from fire damage alone. Though the vast majority of the NIST rebuttal seeks to reinforce the notion that the twin towers were brought down from nothing other than jetliner impacts and heavy fires, NIST makes the admission that investigation into WTC 7 has been insufficient and that they are now, “considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse.”

interesting... look forward to reading it.

Orbital - cheers mate(sense the tone)

just incase anyboby cares to read a lucid programme of how the New World Order could come about, its below.

Once you understand the Illuminati’s modus operandi of Ordo Ab Chao (”order out of chaos”) everything begins to make perfect sense. Bilder-Bush and Bilder-Blair conspire to trap America in Iraq while Bilder-Blair works closely behind the scenes with both the EU and the UN who then proclaim America to be the new Evil Empire. Then here we have the next “prime minister-in-waiting” (pre-selected by the Bilderberg elite obviously) to roll out the next phase which is the complete damning of America in the eyes of the world and subsequent absorption into the global government after a chastising in the fires of WWIII. All of this is staged, set up and engineered for public consumption. All of it is designed to bring America down to its knees because only by destroying America can the New World Order be realized. And after that, the whole world can kiss their freedoms goodbye and accept their total enslavement.

Hope all of you (foreign and domestic) who hate America will enjoy your servitude. And as for you fools who think fighting in Iraq is somehow patriotic (idiotic more like it) and for our freedoms, you have been duped by the globalists and I hope you also enjoy your servitude. And as for you frothing Christian fundamentalists who think this is great news, that the much-loved Apocalypse is upon us, I just don’t even want to hear any more of your crap. You are the most pathetic and stupid of all. So everyone on all sides, all Hail the New World Disorder! Frankly, we have it coming to us because of our moral weakness, willful ignorance and unsurpassed stupidity.

I only hope with all my heart that enough of us can wake up and get deprogrammed soon enough so that this scenario is never realized. The point of no return is fast approaching, so it is extremely urgent that you wake up to the full horror of it and reach out to everyone you know and try to get them informed, whatever it takes.

needless to say its just the theory looming at the mo... only time will tell.


keep pushing

"Well, I would like to just say that there was foreknowledge of the very real possibiblity that this event would happen."

Yeah, some in the FBI were suspicious, and even the infamous "Bin Laden Determined To Attack" memo reached the Oval Office, and they did do nothing. This is the real scandal here: an arrogant, uninterested adminstration that didn't have their ears to the ground on terrorism because they didn't take it seriously, and the subsequent exploitation of the general populace's anti-Middle Eastern feelings following the attack to pursue their more radical foreign policy. This is pretty screwed-up and upsetting on its own, I don't need some kind of sinister conpiratorial plot to feel like the government was out of control. People should be focused on real problems with the administration, not internet-based speculative rumors that show up after any disaster.

"If someone was apart of the overall job of 9/11 they would never come forward because they thought it was for the GREATER GOOD or if they did something to facilitate the events, but were not in the know just a pawn then something would happen to them if they attempted to come forward."

So, any government Bureaucrat that would come across the plot by way of their job would happily go along with the cold-blooded murder of thousands of their fellow citizens as well as the fleecing of their entire neation, just to placate the Bush administration's agenda or some higher greater good?

You're making a huge assumption about an awful lot of people buddy, pretty convenient for your explanation though. In the real world, it's generally considered pretty sili to make sweeping assumptions about the fundamental morality of many people that you've never met and can only speculate about, but I digress.

And so far as "pawns" being fearful of coming forward? Fearful of what? Hoepfully you're not talking about physical reprisal from 'men in black' types, because I'm not even going to address the silliness of that anymore. So far as losing their jobs and such, even if they were threatened with this - don't you think some of them may have moved on to other positions or retired/resigned?

The idea that government can easily silence anybody at any time is another paranoid with zero validity, and when you consider the logistics of it, it is rather impossible in the first place. There is no organized or even plausible way for the US government to track and silence all these individuals, it's just another convenient specualtion for conspiracists who don't like reality intervening with the fun.

"Not only that, but some of the "tens of thousands" (don't know how anyone came up with that number) of individuals quite possibly would have NO reason to care that this plan if executed correctly would kill innocent U.S. civilians. That is an assumption many would make because they have a degree of patriotism especially U.S. citizens, but I'm sure plenty of those involved wouldn't even care about the victims' homeland."

Tens of thousands? Well, if you buy the controlled demolition/no planes for 93 and the Pentagon stuff, that figure is easy to arrive at. The number of agencies involved and the amount of experts, planners, and implimenters to handle every angle of the conspiracy is enormous. Even if you do buy that all four planes crashed, but that we somehow orchestrated the whole deal, we're still talking about a very large number of people. Government bureaucracy is very large, and very few things can be carried out without information moving through many hands - it's only set up to work one way, and I'm not sure how you would suggest that it was carried out with only a few people knowing about it, but I'd love to hear it.

And no reason to care? Yeah, the people that don't care if American citizens dies are the Muslim extremist terrorists that carried the plan out. There are very few ideologies on the planet that are that approving of calculated murder, in fact they celebrate it. If you are referring to our own government employees, then I'll just assume you're very young and still think that everybody who works for the government is evil and soulless, although I still think that's an extremely jackassed sort of comment to make.

As I've said, most of the people that work in government are well educated, talented, and make much less money there than they would in the private sector. They work pretty damn hard, and most do it because of a sense of patriotism or national obligation - but according to you, jsut about any one of them is cool with the slaughter of thousands of innocent people. Nice buddy, very nice. It's once again pretty convenient for the conspiracy (hell, it doesn't work any other way) to just assume that anybody that works for the government is necessarily a morally bankrupt monster whose blind patriotic instincts would cause them to condone mass murder. Brilliant evaluation. I wish you would stop and consider how truly nasty your comments on this matter are - you want this conspiracy to be true so badly that you'll assume that just about anybody could be on board with this sort of horrible mass murder. Not very cool.

"Wouldn't you think that there would be highly trained individuals involved with this plan that would have expertise not available to civilians?"

Uh, what? There were some terrorists who were well financed and educated, some of which had pilot's licenses.

"Also, even if there were tens of thousands of people involved why assume that all of them would know what was going on? The people that we can safely say had foreknowledge of the plan for 9/11 are the very people that ignored intelligence reports to begin with."

It's a bit naive to say that only the very top planners would have a clear picture of what was going to happen. Who are these top planners by the way? But really, I don't know how much of the conspiracy you buy, but in the end somebody has to sign the checks for this thing and write down exactly what's going to happen (in great detail and many times over if something of this scale is actually going to be pulled off) and that doesn't equate to one evil person somewhere pulling the strings of thousands of unwitting pawns. Give me a break. When you actually evaluate the way the conspiracists want this to be, it starts to resemble a cartoon. Not one email, one carbon, one fax, one witness, one phone call - not one shred of evidence from anybody that was every involved that suggests government collusion.

You know, for a government that is world recognized for its 'leaky' nature and intimate contact with the press, they seemed to have done a pretty good job keeping the lid on this one 100% tight. Funny how that's pretty much never happened before in history, but then again if you buy the idea that everybody who works for the government is gung-ho that they'll happily support planned mass-murders and conspiracies against their own country, you'll probably buy anything.

"What we do know for sure is that IT HAPPenis EnlargementNED! "

We do know it happened, possible the first statement I agree with.

"We can't know every detail that happened on that day, but what we can say for sure is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE when it comes to the explanation as to who was responsible for the attacks."

Actually we know many, many details about what happened that day. This is one of the most heavily investigated and documented events in human hsitory. Millions of dollars, untold man hours, thousands of individuals, all dedicated to clearly and thoroughly documenting every aspect of 9/11. We pretty much know what happened, and it all supports the official explanation. Anything is not possible, where does this come from? Many, many things are not possible, for many reasons. This is the kind of non-objective attitude I have previously referred to - the want and desire for their to be an alternative explanation(preferably are evil and conpsiratorial government) for the attacks. Unless you do mean "anything" in a serious sense, in which case I take it that you feel that was equally likely to have been the Chinese, perhaps Zionist conspiracy, world banking conspiracy or whatever that's all about, the Russians, white supremecists? Do you really think anything is possible, given all the evidence and documentation we have? Or are you just confirming with yourself that you still feel the government had to have been involved?

"The problem is that the question of who is almost impossible to answer for it would take a massive formal independent investigation (which should have happened right after the event) and the alternative to the what part is something that is very hard for people to even consider."

I always hear this, so I ask you, an indepedent investigation by who? By this statement I can presumably say that you feel all the investigators were "in on it" as well, but I ask, who commissions this second investigation? Who pays for it? Where do the people come from? Nobody is stopping anyobdy from combing through everything publicly availalbe - and one day, when all investigations are finished by the government (yes, some are ongoing even today), then everything will be available publicly. Nobody is stopping engineers, aviation experts, terrorism experts, etc, from getting to task with the thousands of pages of documents and testimony that have been publicly released. Most of this stuff was all made public very quickly and the 9/11 process was intentionally expediated and made open to the public for obvious reasons - people were interested in this information.

Also, it's not something that's difficult for people to consider. There's so much outrage towards the Bush administration right now that large numbers of people have responded in polls that they think government collusion is possible for 9/11. Now, that number drops to low single digits when the actual "theories" are presented (controlled demolition, no planes, etc), but the fact remains that people are open to conspiracy ideas - until they actually think about it a little more. As I've said, there's a massive conspiracy with loads of supporters and detailed analysis for many, many events in American history, with most of them centering around evil government agencies screwing over the American people for sinister reasons usually involving global domination. It goes all the way back to the Revolutionary War actually. Doesn't make any of them true, it's just a pheonomena that occurrs every time something major happens in this country. Think about that for a moment please.

"Add all that with the fact that the official story we've been given has to be THE BIGGEST PIECE OF CRAP and SLAP TO THE FACE/KICK TO THE PUBLIC'S STOMACH in our country's history and you just can't believe what anyone has to say that is in line with the official report."

Really? I find the idea that so many in our own government are so willing to complicit in the horrible murder of their fellow citizens because they're either evil or brainwashed to be a "kick to the stomach." You can't believe any of it? Not one sentence? So the thousands of people whose testimony and reserach went into that thing are all part of one big lie? They were all comparing notes to make sure nobody acidentally contradicted themselves and blew the conspiracy wide open? Have you read the 9/11 Commission report? You're writing in purley emotional/speculative terms, but you're not saying much.

It's very common amongst the 9/11 denier movement to trash the official report as somehow insulting to the victims families and the greater populace. This is because the report fully explains with detail and documentation many things that make the conspiracy completely implausible - so fo course they don't like it. If people take the report seriously, they can't possibly buy the conspiracy, so conspiracists treat it as if it were hundreds of pages of pure fiction. It's rather pathetic in my opinion, grasping at the proverbial straws. Go pick up a copy and at least read the thing before you're willing to condemn it as this grotesque insult. I feel that you're largely repeating some rhetoric from the conspiracy sites with the above. That's actually almost word for word something I've heard said in videos by the conspiracy protestors at ground zero.

"If you aren't still asking questions that remain inadequately answered then you've given up on your people."

You've given up on your people when you think that the entirety of the government is either lying, incompitent, blindly patriotic, incompitent, or wholly evil.

If you're spending your time critiquing the government on a poorly supported and disjointed conspiracy theory that is logisitically and effectively impossible, as well as rather easy to disprove when facts and evidence are considered over specualtion and coincidence, then you're not doing much to address the real problems, as mentioned at the beginning of the post.

I'd suggest the "Screw Loose Change" documentary for you as well. It's entertaining if nothing else, and I get the feeling you haven't exposed yourself to too much information that says anything contrary to "the government did it" since you became interested in this topic.

stridge,

thats another, stridge monster classic.

this is not about your last post per se.

i just wanted to chime in about the conspiracy of a world government and whats happening around us today.

repost:
Once you understand the Illuminati’s modus operandi of Ordo Ab Chao (”order out of chaos”) everything begins to make perfect sense. Bilder-Bush and Bilder-Blair conspire to trap America in Iraq while Bilder-Blair works closely behind the scenes with both the EU and the UN who then proclaim America to be the new Evil Empire. Then here we have the next “prime minister-in-waiting” (pre-selected by the Bilderberg elite obviously) to roll out the next phase which is the complete damning of America in the eyes of the world and subsequent absorption into the global government after a chastising in the fires of WWIII. All of this is staged, set up and engineered for public consumption. All of it is designed to bring America down to its knees because only by destroying America can the New World Order be realized. And after that, the whole world can kiss their freedoms goodbye and accept their total enslavement.

i know you hate it and me some to boot, but it has a mien of validity IF you pool the components of americas home and foreign policies.

foreign policy is habitual, home affairs are left by the way side.

the econemy, thus dollar is failing big time.

by your own admissions america may well bankrupt itself.

the middle class IS gradually transposing into the lower class.

the boarders are wide open.

the north american alliance is gathering pace.

more troops are being deployed to a redundant, futile war. despite the wishes of well-nigh most of the planet.

iran is patently on the agenda.

most nations hate the regime.

your steadfast british allies are planning when and how to withdraw troops from iraq and afganistan.

the EU is becoming a more unified, complete entity day by day.

blairs as well as gone. brown champions world government.

incrementalism is on our doorsteps. brits don't seem opposed to the ID card if it keeps "bombings" reserved for other countries.

billions are being spent on micro-chips that one day everyone will have to be implanted with.

the internet 2 is amid construction. utter govermental control of every action, movement undertaken.

it goes on...

really only time will tell.

do you see a possiblity that america is fucking itself by its own design, and how the method of by which world government COULD come to be can happen diametrically from 9/11(the catalyst)?

even if there was no prior knowledge. conspricay encompassing 9/11 is struck.

the global shifting since that date has been astronomical... it is a possiblity that the new world order conspiracy is right between the eyes.

i know what your thinking already, but those that believe it, or think they can see it, should question it absolutely. because if we're wrong it does not matter... if you're wrong, we're knee deep in shit in with no arms.

relentless debating on this topic is ALL good.


keep pushing

"i know you hate it and me some to boot"

No, not at all. I don't hate the NWO/Illuminati stuff, that's more just entertaining to me. That stuff just disproves itself, because basically people have been fitting world events into the conspiracy for decades, claiming that this massive one world government is around the corner, but it never comes to pass. I really don't like the 9/11 conspiracies for the many reasons I bitch about in my last monster post - it bugs me that people want this conspiracy so bad that they'll write off so many other people as cold-blooded murderers, and frankyl it distracts from some real and very serious problems with the government.

And I certainly don't hate you - you keep it civil and entertaining, and I think you have a more open mind than I originally gave you credit for.

"by your own admissions america may well bankrupt itself"

I actually said that was an Al Qaeda policy goal with the attacks, I don't personally believe this will happen, although our economy is certainly not always going to be the juggernaught it once was. Part of this is natural, part of it is mismanagement, either way I don't see anything conspiratorial about the decline of an economy - nobody stays at peak performance or dominance forever, and the US will likely start getting outcompeted by other nations in the next few decades if we don't shape up.

"the middle class IS gradually transposing into the lower class."

Indeed, wealth disparity is growing, has been for decades. We still have a substantial middle class for a country this size, but they need protections. Fortunately our newly minted Democratic Congress is working on this agenda as we speak.

"the north american alliance is gathering pace."

The US, Canada, and Mexico? What do they ahve to do with it? They're our prime trading partners, what's sinister here?

"more troops are being deployed to a redundant, futile war. despite the wishes of well-nigh most of the planet."

I agree, the "surge" of troops is dumb. The idea is that 20K is enough to strategically secure Baghdad, but I don't think it will work as we've hread this line before. There either needs to be significant withdrawl and take our chances with Baghdad falling to extremists, or we commit a real force of troops of at least 70K and do the job right. I personally favor strategic redeployment in the region (meaning get out of Iraq, but keep a presenece in the region in case chaos breaks out).

As I've mentioned, the whole rationale behind Iraq, spelled out in detail by all the Neocons that I assume you think are behind this, was that we would have been in and out of Iraq very quickly with no prolonged engagement. The Neocon leaders that you claim are pleased to be in Iraq are not - they look like fools, its killing their other policy agendas, and it has knocked the GOP out of favor in America for probably a long time. Nobody wants the war to be over more than the Neecons, but they're not the type to reverse course and pull out as they've made a political gambit on calling their opponents out for "cutting and running" and "flip-flopping."

"iran is patently on the agenda."

Doubt it. And what about when Bush and his whole government is gone in two years? John McCain and Giuliani are centrists who would likely never get involved with a conflict in Iran, and the whole world is in agreement that they shouldn't have nukes anyway - it just fosters more war and instability in the region, or anywhere for that matter. If a Clinton or Obama are elected, you can be damn sure that conflict in Iran will be a non-issue. Considering the fiasco in Iraq, there is zero public support for this kind of action, and the US government doesn't do a lot of things that are completely unpopular with the general public. Remember, we are a republican (little R, not the GOP, but representational government) democracy over here, not a dictatorship.

"your steadfast british allies are planning when and how to withdraw troops from iraq and afganistan."

Can't blaim 'em. No public support their, and it's not your war. Blair made a diplomatic move by supporting Bush, it bit him in the ass, he's paying for it now. It won't make a terribly large difference, the US has maintained 95% of the military burden for the "alliance" the whole time. The idea of an alliance was just a PR move to try and justify our actions outside of the UN system, which we pretty much openly defied.

"the EU is becoming a more unified, complete entity day by day."

Is that a problem? The EU has been a long time coming, and it's the best way for European economies to not stagnate. Countries maintain quite a bit of autonomy under the EU, I never understand why some find it sinister. Maybe because of all the old "Omen" type anti-christ rumors and the EU? Who knows, but I think it's a good thing. String international economic competition fosters innovation and a healthy market. The EU will improve the quality of life for many in Eastern Europe especially, and it really helps enforce human rights standards and justice sysyems with integrity.

"blairs as well as gone. brown champions world government."

If Blair is bad, isn't this good? I don't know about this Brown guy, haven't kept up with Brit politics, but I'll look him up. I sort of doubt he favors a 'one-world-government,' but we'll see. Remember, you all do have a democratic system there as well. Nothing is set in stone unless you think the whole system is bakrupt, which I suspect that you do.

"incrementalism is on our doorsteps. brits don't seem opposed to the ID card if it keeps "bombings" reserved for other countries.

billions are being spent on micro-chips that one day everyone will have to be implanted with.

the internet 2 is amid construction. utter govermental control of every action, movement undertaken."

This is the future paranoia stuff. MY favorite is the microchip thing. I suggest you look into microchip transmitter technology my friend, because we are a looooong ways away from a chip that you could just stick into somebody and track their movements with. The cost and infrastructure on this is enormous, and you're also assuming that the general population of all our free countries are going to just embrace this with open arms. I don't think so, at least I can't think of a single person I know that is open to the idea of a chip implant, and I doubt there are going to be any politicans dumb enough to ever support such a measure.

Believe it or not, there are many people that don't believe in conspiracy theories that are also very concered with protecting democratic rights and civil liberties. You don't need to assume the government is an evil cabal to also care about your personal freedoms and protections - this stuff will nto come to pass because A) no sane government would try to impliment it as they would be tossed out of office, B) the people aren't going to lay down across the board and let the government elminate any notion of democratic freedom - our government simply can't function without civil liberties and freedom, and I don't know anybody that is going to be A-OK with dismantling them.

It seems like you assume that anybody who doesn't buy the conspiracy just doesn't care about freedom and liberty and their rights, or perhaps you assume they're too dumb or distracted to do so. I can assure you, this is not the case.

"because if we're wrong it does not matter... if you're wrong, we're knee deep in shit in with no arms."

Buddy, if we actually see any sort of "one-world-government" come to pass in this lifetime, I'll personally get my microchip scanned for travel clearence and fly over to the Federate States of Europe to buy you as many pints as you can handle before the NWO disinformation gistapo shows up to drag you off to the reprogramming camp.

Reber187 said:

velimirovich -

that was quite a flimsey post.

if you feel like burning some time and reading onwards you'll see that me and stridge have been slogging this out for a while.

wtc7 has been the central focus, and between us i think we've unearthed a number of holes that have riled us en route(conspiracy and non) and tried to fill them.

since our face offs i have reevaluated my Larry Silverstien stance coz im not certain in my own mind why he would have been actively involved. when analyzing the finer financial aspects this appears markedly not prudent... im not saying he wasn't, but i need more now.

i do still believe wtc7 was felled by the intervention of man, not fire, and will always believe this until proven otherwise. i guess only the wtc7 NIST report can change my opinion on the matter.

eitherway, stridge has fought his corner and it might be interesting for yourself to browse through his material.


keep pushing

Click to expand...

Well.. all the buildings were brought down by explosives placed inside the buildings, as im sure you know, but.. 9/11 aside.. it's not only the american government.. it's all governments doing shit like this.. british, russian, etcetc

It's very sad, scary.. surreal and unluckily... it is very, very real.

velimirovich said:

Well.. all the buildings were brought down by explosives placed inside the buildings, as im sure you know, but.. 9/11 aside.. it's not only the american government.. it's all governments doing shit like this.. british, russian, etcetc

It's very sad, scary.. surreal and unluckily... it is very, very real.

Click to expand...

Every government in the world, evenly vastly different ones, all plot and work against the people? Man alive, where are you going to go then buddy?

Too much late night cable sci-fi, not enough civics education.

Also, show me one piece of credible evidence that the buildings came down with explosions. You sound pretty certain, so where's the smoking gun? Can you find something written by an engineer or a demolitons expert that agrees with you?

Actually, just read some of the posts, it's all iinked and discussed. I assume you're young, don't stay uninformed.

I don't mean to browbeat you kid, but you just made a thread begging for help because your mom saw your dick pictures - I'm going to assume that you don't have a lot of background/experience to really make sweeping statements about all the governments in the world. What was the alst bbok you read about political science? History? Diplomatic affairs and foreign policy? Or are you just taking a lot of things you read on the internet at face value?

"No, not at all. I don't hate the NWO/Illuminati stuff, that's more just entertaining to me. That stuff just disproves itself, because basically people have been fitting world events into the conspiracy for decades, claiming that this massive one world government is around the corner, but it never comes to pass."

How the fuck does it disprove itself? First of all, the Illuminati is 100% REAL and legitimate. If you think otherwise, I believe I'm wasting my time replying to you, because you haven't researched the subject properly.

Secondly, everything thats happening is just REINFORCING the so called "NWO". Soon Canada, USA, and Mexico will have the same currency, they've already done this in Europe, globalizing everything, because thats the only possible way to have power over everyone you must unite it. THEN, they will insist on the microchip, if people say no.. OK.. BAM, they will commit another terrorist act like 9/11.. probably even more catastrophic to shake people up and make them scared as fuck and go "microchips?? OK.. YES.. YES.. please just save us from the terrorists!" lol.. laughable.

Some interesting links:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_y2qHGu35iY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hHFKtdE6mCU <-- check this out... Notice how he says the U.N's plan.. do you know what the U.N's plan is? To eventually move the human population down to 500,000 million people.

"I really don't like the 9/11 conspiracies for the many reasons I bitch about in my last monster post - it bugs me that people want this conspiracy so bad that they'll write off so many other people as cold-blooded murderers, and frankyl it distracts from some real and very serious problems with the government."

Yeah.. because the fact that they are murderers is a DISTRACTION from some MORE important problems..... uh huh.... ?



"The US, Canada, and Mexico? What do they ahve to do with it? They're our prime trading partners, what's sinister here?"

See you obviously have no idea, never actually researched the so-called "NWO" or probably not even the illuminati, have you? There must be centralization of power.



"iran is patently on the agenda."

"Doubt it. And what about when Bush and his whole government is gone in two years? John McCain and Giuliani are centrists who would likely never get involved with a conflict in Iran, and the whole world is in agreement that they shouldn't have nukes anyway - it just fosters more war and instability in the region, or anywhere for that matter. If a Clinton or Obama are elected, you can be damn sure that conflict in Iran will be a non-issue. Considering the fiasco in Iraq, there is zero public support for this kind of action, and the US government doesn't do a lot of things that are completely unpopular with the general public. Remember, we are a republican (little R, not the GOP, but representational government) democracy over here, not a dictatorship."


It actually IS a dictatorship.. you just can't see it... a blind prison so to speak.. how can you rebel against whom you think is your leader/friend? That's the point.. It's a blind prison my friend.. there WILL be more wars, and they can do ANYTHING they want VERY simply.. with fear. Stage another terrorist attack, and voila.

Oh.. and.. don't worry, noone will interfere with the agenda, and it doesn't matter when Bush resigns from office, the same agenda will be in place, the exact same one, the president makes NO difference, ZERO, nada, none. Because if someone dares to rebel against the agenda.. well.. you know what happened to Kennedy.. =\ (And if you think Oswald shot JFK, please let me know, so I know not speak to you anymore).


"Is that a problem? The EU has been a long time coming, and it's the best way for European economies to not stagnate. Countries maintain quite a bit of autonomy under the EU, I never understand why some find it sinister. Maybe because of all the old "Omen" type anti-christ rumors and the EU? Who knows, but I think it's a good thing. String international economic competition fosters innovation and a healthy market. The EU will improve the quality of life for many in Eastern Europe especially, and it really helps enforce human rights standards and justice sysyems with integrity."

I bet you think microchips would be a good idea too right? It will "protect" you from the "terrorists"


"This is the future paranoia stuff. MY favorite is the microchip thing. I suggest you look into microchip transmitter technology my friend, because we are a looooong ways away from a chip that you could just stick into somebody and track their movements with. The cost and infrastructure on this is enormous, and you're also assuming that the general population of all our free countries are going to just embrace this with open arms. I don't think so, at least I can't think of a single person I know that is open to the idea of a chip implant, and I doubt there are going to be any politicans dumb enough to ever support such a measure."

Future paranoia stuff huh? Are you still in that mentality?? Just so you know, most if not all of the stuff the so called "wacko's" have predicted have come true, everything is coming full circle, why are you so blind?

You've extremely misinformed because, actually, there aren't long ways away AT ALL from using implantable microchips they can implant into people to track them, they have this technology and have had it for years already, and it will be implemented very soon.

Once again, it doesn't mean fuckall if noone AGREES to it or not... They will setup more "terror attacks" and thats the end of it. Especially the "patriotic" people.. oh... I want to be FREE.. I will get an implant to support my country! I hate terrorists and if you don't have the microchip you are a terrorist/support terrorism, blablabla.. =/



It seems like you assume that anybody who doesn't buy the conspiracy just doesn't care about freedom and liberty and their rights, or perhaps you assume they're too dumb or distracted to do so. I can assure you, this is not the case."

Why call them conspiracies anyway?? Because it's not the same story being fed to you by the government controlled media? Do you believe Oswald assassinate JFK because thats what they said? Ohh.. surely they wouldn't lie about something like that right?? Just like they wouldn't lie about 9/11 huh? Any other story other than the one told to us by the government is a complete crackpot conspiracy theory and people who believe in that are "insane" huh?

The fact that you're SO sure of yourself in your stance about backing up the government, knowing they didn't do a thing etc.. is extremely disconcerting to me because you obviously have done VERY little research if any at all on the subject. Thats what makes me most upset, ignorance.. yes ignorance is bliss, but the truth shall set you free, haha.


"Buddy, if we actually see any sort of "one-world-government" come to pass in this lifetime, I'll personally get my microchip scanned for travel clearence and fly over to the Federate States of Europe to buy you as many pints as you can handle before the NWO disinformation gistapo shows up to drag you off to the reprogramming camp."

See, thats part of the problem.. you can't accept this because it is so outside of your "reality" and mindset.. It just sounds so crazy to you doesn't it? Thats what gets most people who don't believe in this stuff... I know I used to be the same way, though I was never stuck on any side, I just wanted the truth, the reality. It's really frightening.. even depressing knowing all this stuff, and shrugging it off as simply 'crackpot conspiracy theories' is an easy way to deal with it I suppose...

GOTO sleep America.. you are free.. to do as we tell you.

Microchip vids: http://youtube.com/watch?v=s9ZR2s8NRNs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i2SrAmJqMnQ


Other vids: JFK http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2928756561478705121&q=JFK+II

about 9/11 and etc http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=786048453686176230&q=alex+jones

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8184253307321536024&q=alex+jones

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661&q=alex+jones

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6517776133137328105&q=alex+jones

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7752483415674202196&q=alex+jones

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5004704309041471296&q=alex+jones

IF YOU DONT WATCH ANY OF THE VIDEOS, WATCH THIS ONE PLEASE!!!!!!!1

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294&q=william+rodriguez <-----

Many demolitions experts? Show me one please.

Professor Steven E. Jones has already been discussed extensively. The guy has no experience in the field he wrote the paper on, and the research was so shoddily done that nobody in his own department would even endorse the thing. Needless to say, no other engineers or physicists have signed off on the paper, which has been shown to contain so many errors and false assumptions that Jones has even come forward and admitted that the science is bad.

William Rodriquez was a janitor standing in the sub-basment 1 one, and just one of mayn hundreds that day to have heard explosions. This has already been discussed at length in the other posts, but just to review, explosions can be caused by compressed air, electricity transformers (of which there are many in buildings like the WTCs), gase lines and kitchen appliances exploding, fire emergin into fresh air pockets, structural components snapping or falling, the list goes on.

Watch a video of a controlled demolition on the internet - it's a chain reaction of uniformed structural explosions that are clearly visible and start with a massive 'base buster' explosion at the bottom of the building. If what Mr. Rodriguez heard were explosions from a controlled demoliton sequence, he would be dead right now. Think about this critically please.

Please don't suggest that those links are "documentaries." I think most documentarians would find that offensive. I've seen literally all of the conspiracy angles and videos at this point - so I will unforutantely pass on watching the videos at the moment as I doubt they will be anything I haven't yet seen or signifantly different from other materials.

I really suggest you watch the "Screw Loose Change" video on youtube if you want a full overview of both sides. The video is just the original conspiracy film with commentary inserted. Watch that, then we'll talk.

"No? Then why oh why are you so condescending?"

You made broad sweeping comments with little or no support that didn't really add much to the discussion, and it seems clear you haven't bothered to read much of what has already been said - that sort of thing normally invites a little rebuking but I'll try to be less harsh.

"You know what, you're right.. my mom found my penis pics on the computer.. I MUST be a dumb-fuck right? (;"

My point was, it seems you don't have a lot of experience, background, knowledge base, ect, to really be able to back up statements like you're making. It sounds like you're saying it just for the hell of it or just parroting some very simple things (for isntance the "documentaries") available on the internet.

I'm suggesting that may be a young and inexperienced person who hasn't done much critical thinking on the matter, not that you're stupid.

stridge -

just to clarify, i was only asking if you thought it a possibility? like im aware that there is the possibility that im just big fat wrong.

secret societies are an institution in nigh-on every country.

the northern alliance simply functions to make the US larger. you have to apply the fund of other snippets with this theory.

i didn't refer to micro-chips as tracking devices.
if you have a fleeting search you'll see that veri-chip et al(the mega-trialblazers & biggest money in this field) are all over this micro-chip implant to store your personal data(all personal data)

i don't know much about Obama(is he the black fella?) and i do know clinton.
clinton was pro everything bush was pro a couple of years back, no surprise she promises she'll be doing the polar opposite. i don't see a remarkable difference in most politicans when they take the healm. is this what bush swore he'd do in the run-up to the presidential campaign, bury a nation for nothing discernable aside from mauling the radicals.
when polling day arrives we will see. as i said, its the people that count the votes that have the power. and when congress switched this year they pronounced that "the ballads couldn't have been rigged could they, we lost".
a faulty system doesn't just ammend itself. you can rig it to lose to stomp on conspiracy, and then rig it again to take the whitehouse.
i'll look for a good link about the electronic voting system for you to ruminate about... its maddness.

and i know you don't hate me. i were yanking...

you wrote "browbeat", one of my favourite words ever... kudos.


keep pushing

"How the fuck does it disprove itself? First of all, the Illuminati is 100% REAL and legitimate."

There is a historical organization, similar to many others that existed at the time. Today I believe the offshoot is the Freemasons, who are basically a working class service organization, which you could probably easily join if you wished to. The Illuminati do not control world events, as the conspiracy suggests. There is no evidence to support this.

How does it disprove itself? Go to your library and check do some research - books and articles have been written by conspiracists for decades fitting whatever the current time period's events are into the "Illuminati" scheme, and they always proclaim that the "NWO" is just around the corner. Guess what - hasn't happened yet. The conspiracy idea is so large and nebulous that virtually any occurrence can be made to fit within its parameters, it's a pretty simple ruse.

"Soon Canada, USA, and Mexico will have the same currency, they've already done this in Europe, globalizing everything, because thats the only possible way to have power over everyone you must unite it. THEN, they will insist on the microchip, if people say no.. OK.. BAM, they will commit another terrorist act like 9/11"

We're going to have the same currency? Says who? It would be insane to merge our economies, particularly with Mexico - there's absolutely no fiscal advantage for the US if we do this. This is pure speculation on your part based on paranoid and fanciful internet films, not scholarship and reality. Go read some books about trade, economic development, and currency valuation instead of just taking anonymous internet propaganda as the gospel.

Europe merged their currency in order to facilitate easier trade and liquidity between the economies. When you have that many distinct nations jammed into such a small geographic area it makes a lot of sense. It also lended strength and stability to most countries monetary supply, an effect that would efinately not happen in the US if we, for some completely irrational reason, decided to merge our currency with our neighbora. Just because one thing happens somewhere, that doesn't mean it will autmoatically happen somewhere else - this is a completely illogical assumption and shows a very poor understanding of what the EU is, as well as the US economic system. Go to the books, not the internet buddy. It's not as fun but you may be grateful one day.

And the terrorist attack thing? First of all, there is not one single shred of evidence that the US government comitted 9/11 in the first place. Secondly, if your smoking gun is the speculative idea that the US government is going to commit terrorist attacks in order to scare us into suBathmateitting to microchip tracking (why do they want to do this in the first place exactly?) - then your spmoking fun is entirely speculative. That is, it's a product of fictional ideas of a vastly unlikely "what if" scenario that you have convinced yourself is the state of affairs in the world.

Here's an idea, since you seem interested in all this. Instead of arguing with me or watching Alex Jones-ish "police state" scare videos on the internet (where everything you read and see is true, right?), why don't you email a professor at a local university and ask if you can meet and speak with them in order to discuss some questions and ideas you have. Try an econ guy, foreign relations, poly sci, history, take your pick. Somebody will oblige you. Then, go in there and tell them what you think about this and get their opinion. I promise they're not going to be minions of the government and they will more than likely be extremely polite.

"check this out... Notice how he says the U.N's plan.. do you know what the U.N's plan is? To eventually move the human population down to 500,000 million people."

This video is funny to me - just like when you guys get all excited about people mentioning the Military Industrial Complex. This term, nor was the idea of a NWO first associated with conspiracies. The Military Industrail Complex was identified as the backbone of our economy in the 50s and basically coined by Eisenhower in a public speech, there's nothing sinister about it - in fact, if you'll recall middle scool, that's probably where you first learned what it was. The hideous "New World Order" Bush is referring to in that clip is a world where human rights standards, as prescribed by EU membership, are applied all of the world in order to avoid genocide, sectarian violence, and oppression of women and ethnic minorities. The speech was primarily addressing the problems emergin in Sub-Sarahan Africa where murderous and corrupt military dictatorships and genocide were becoming increasingly worrisome to the world community.

Honestly, I have a hard time taking what you say seriously if a video snippet like that is something that you find to be compelling evidence of conspiracy. Interestingly enough, as a young male without a high education level but a frequent use of the internet, you fit the #1 demographic of conspiracy enthusiasts. Not terribly surprising I suppose.

"See you obviously have no idea, never actually researched the so-called "NWO" or probably not even the illuminati, have you? There must be centralization of power."

Explain to me how trading with our closest neighbors is a centralization of power? Should we not interact with the other closest (and only bordering) nations because of some vague conspiracy notion regarding Illuminati plots and one-world-governments? How is power centralized here? Geeze, you must be really terrified about the trading blocks we have with Central America, or South America, or Asia. All the more frightening when you realize we've had established trade relationships with other governments since *ghasp* the United States existed. Once more, how is power centralizing?

Honestly bud, I don't need to study all the details of the Illuminati/NWO stuff. I understand the basics, and frankly from what I've seen the actual variations between once conspiracy theorist/website to the next or pretty wide, so what's the point, I understand what it all gets at. I also unerstand that to buy into it, then I'd need to believe that every person in the world who studies economics, history, foreign policy, political science, or works in these fields for that matter, are all flat out retarded because they can't recognize this massive conspiracy. But, you conspiracy folks are smarter than all these Phds and scholars around the world, right? You guys really know what's going on, not the people that spend their entire lives studying and researching world affairs.

"It actually IS a dictatorship.. you just can't see it... a blind prison so to speak.. how can you rebel against whom you think is your leader/friend? That's the point.. It's a blind prison my friend.. there WILL be more wars, and they can do ANYTHING they want VERY simply.. with fear. Stage another terrorist attack, and voila."

Uh, I'll basically just not address this. Trust me, we don't live in a dictatorship. For instance, you're freely criticizing the government at this moment, not something easily accomplished in a dictatorship. You can cast a vote for your representatives, you have civil rights and liberties, you have guaranteed human rights, freedom of conduct within the law . . . none of these are really in keeping with a dictatorship. Once again, go speak with a professor or an academic, read a book about the government, or any book, but with this stuff you're just regurgetating a lot of blustery rheotoric without saying much of anything. I'll chalk it up to your youth again, but seriously . . .

So the president doesn't matter? How so? The agenda won't change? Once again, it all fits into the larger conspiracy web without actually saying anything. As I've said, it's like arguing with a dogmatically religous person. Any contradictions/inconsistencies are simply brushed away by saying "it's all part of God's plan" or "we can't understand God's will," and all manner of similar statement. With the conspiracy, all world events and happenings are attributed to super-secret organizations that there is no evidence of (making it rather hard to disprove them, rather like space aliens), which control everything for their own sinister reasons. It's a very facile philosophy when you break it down.

"I bet you think microchips would be a good idea too right? It will "protect" you from the "terrorists"

Actually, ahem, dumbass, I've worked for the ACLU and the liberal wing Democratic Party in my day, and my mentor as an undergrad was one of the most published and recognized scholars on the development and preservation of civil liberties and human rights. I've done more work and reading regarding civil rights and freedoms than I expect you ever will. This is precisely why I think my opinion on the whole science fiction scenario of microchips might be just little bit more valid than yours. You clearly don't know much about the mechanics, history, or development of our government and society, so as I said, I don't lend a lot of weight to your comments.

"Just so you know, most if not all of the stuff the so called "wacko's" have predicted have come true"

Such as?

"You've extremely misinformed because, actually, there aren't long ways away AT ALL from using implantable microchips they can implant into people to track them, they have this technology and have had it for years already, and it will be implemented very soon."

Really, because the last thing I ever read on the matter said that even the US government hasn't implimented for troops in the battle field (where it really makes sense as wounded soldiers could be recovered much more qucikly if we could track them remotely and dog tags often don't work out for body ID) because they don't work at any sort of range and it's simply too costly to institute. Back your statements with some information.

"Because it's not the same story being fed to you by the government controlled media?"

Why exactly is the government criticized in the media then? You know, most of your brothers in conspiracy actually seem to think that its evil corporations that control all of the news media - you may want to double check which one you're supposed to believe in on that one.

"Any other story other than the one told to us by the government is a complete crackpot conspiracy theory and people who believe in that are "insane" huh? "

Think of it like this - there is no logisitcally or physically plausible way for 9/11 to have been a conspiracy if you actually think about it criticall, which you're not. I don't think the people that believe in a conspiracy are outright stupid, but I do think that enjoy the conspiracy idea on a certain level and want it to be true. Much like people that are really into aliens, sea monsters, whatever, they ignore any evidence or commentary that contradicts the conspiracy idea and use self-reenforcing idea structures to bolster their arguements. I think this is sili in some respects, as the methods and arguements used by conspiracists would never hold up for an instant in an academic or scientific environment. Most wouldn't last long against a high school debate team actually. As I've repeated, I find most conspiracy theories to be entertaining, but 9/11 bugs me for certain reasons.

"The fact that you're SO sure of yourself in your stance about backing up the government, knowing they didn't do a thing etc.. is extremely disconcerting to me because you obviously have done VERY little research if any at all on the subject. Thats what makes me most upset, ignorance.. yes ignorance is bliss, but the truth shall set you free, haha."

Mmm, I'm sure of myself because I have done research - I'm quite certain that looked at more information from both sides of the 9/11 thing than you have. On top of that, I majored in political science and history, I have an advanced degree in policy studies, and I'll be heading back for more education shortly. Does this make me smarter? Certainly not. Does this mean that I have spent exponentially more time reading actual books and credible information about how the world works than you? Derfinately. Add to that the facts that I have worked for and around the government, as well big and small companies as a consultant and employ, companies which deal with the government at pretty high levels, as well as spent much my career dealing with forign governments and studying foreign institutional structures, and I'd say that I know a whole hell of a lot more about how the world actually works than you do. I'm not trying to flaunt my background here, but I basically think that everything you believe comes from clearly biased internet propaganda and that you don't have enough education yet to really make an evaluation of it because you're clearly lacking in some critical thinking skills.

For isntance, you may feel that you've made some kind of argument here, but all you've done is repeat some fairly standard conspiracy ideas over and over again and accuse me of being 'blind.' If the most complicated and nuanced argument you're capable of making is the repetition of a bunch of run of the mill conspiracy points, then, well, once again, not a lot of critical thinking going on.

"I know I used to be the same way, though I was never stuck on any side, I just wanted the truth, the reality. It's really frightening.. even depressing knowing all this stuff, and shrugging it off as simply 'crackpot conspiracy theories' is an easy way to deal with it I suppose..."

When? When you were fourteen . . . sorry couldn't resist. But seriously, you claim to want the truth, but you seem to be only exposing yourself to pro-conspriacy materials and completely close-minded to the idea that ANY conspiracy ideas aren't 100% accurate. That's not an objective search for the truth little buddy, that's a person with a hobby.

Like I said, at least begin by watching the "screw loose change" video so you're at least up to speed on the 9/11 debate.
















:

"Mmm, I'm sure of myself because I have done research - I'm quite certain that looked at more information from both sides of the 9/11 thing than you have. On top of that, I majored in political science and history, I have an advanced degree in policy studies, and I'll be heading back for more education shortly. Does this make me smarter? Certainly not."

So you admit I'm smarter than you. Owned biatch.

"See now, if you actually DID watch those "documentaries" like you SAID you did, you would have seen this."

Show me a quote, in its entire context, from a demolitions expert that agrees with the conspiracy theory. The only thing I know of that's even close is a Dutch guy who was shown WT7 without being told what it was, who replied that it looked like it could have been a controlled demolition. When the guy saw it from different angles and heard what he was actually looking at, he thought it was ridiculous. This has been verified and debunked over and over.

"That's bullshit, the reason they didn't "endorse" it is for the same reason Fox News doesn't endorse it, because they are stupid."

No, not bullshit, I don't think you understand how the academic world works. Things are reviewed by other experts over and over to look for errors - and many, many errors were found with his work on the matter. He eventually lost his job because the research was so poor. No engineers, materials, experts, physicists, etc, have signed on that the paper's conclusions are properly arrived at or supported. Once again, and I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but you really just don't know what you're talking about. What has Fox News got to do with anything? Just because they're conservative doesn't mean they're in on the conspiracy my man.

"Show me the link where Jones says admits this."

http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm -Read Away

Just one quote since his voluntary retirment rather than have his work's standards face peer review by qualified engineers:

"I can be proven wrong," Jones said. "I accept that. But whoever does it will have to explain this molten metal to me, and especially all the barium found."

If you're curious about how he's wrong on the barrium, just read some critiques of the reserearch made by people that actually know what they're talking about, most of which can be accessed through the above link. Basically, his reserach contained so many mistakes that were so easily pointed out, that even a university like BYU became embarassed by the amateurish and biased approach that he was taking - not to mention that he was using univeristy time and resources to study something completely out of his field.

"You sound exactly like them..it's creepy.. and if you actually WATCHED the documentaries once again, you would know, there were no GAS kitchens and etc."

Who is them exactly? I said kitchen appliances, and there are some gas fixtures and lines conected in buildings like that. My brother is a commercial developer, I asked. Your comments do absolutly nothing to address the poin that many, many things could be creating explosions in the towers that day, and that none of the explosions were consistent with those found in controlled demolitions. If you care to actually address my point with your comments, I'll leave it open for you.

"Watch the william rodriguez video, and stop judging people based on fucking age, job, social status, etc, you moron."

I've seen the video - it's in the Loose Change film. As I said, a guy down in the basement would not have lived if here party to any controlled demoliton explosions. A controlled demolition must go off in sequence and rapidly - starting with a massive explosion in the basement fixtures - to work properly. William Rodriqez would be dead if he heard explosions from a controlled demolition. I have no doubt he heard some explosions, just as many other people did, in and outside of the towers. This really doesn't mean anything.

How am I judging him? I point out that he's a janitor because that means he's not a firefighter or anybody else with some experience in that type of situation who would have a better idea of what was happening.

You know who morons are: people who throw insults and swear a lot when they can't wage a decent argument to support their statements.

"What the fuck?

Obviously, because in a controlled demolition they put big ass explosives in there, they don't need to cover up anything, so it's obvious to see why it would look different with the WTC buildings."

What the fuck indeed - what are you saying here? The Trade Centers would easily be the largest buildings in history to come down with a controlled demolition, and so the process would need to be precise and elaborate to pull it off. There's no way to "cover up" the massive dynamite shatter charges in a controlled demolition - watch the "Screw Loose Change" video to see what a controlled demolition actually looks like. The charges are rapid, in sequence, and designed to work together ti initiate global collapse. The basement explosion is massive and starts the reaction - so it's a good thing old Willam Rodriguez was wrong.

"Obviously they couldn't make it come down EXACTLY like a controlled demolition, think about it.. and he did almost die and there were people who did die when the bombs went off in the basement, even minutes BEFORE any plane hit."

Huh, why would they be so dumb as to start blowing things up before the planes hit? Why were there no 911 calls or police calls if there were explosions going off in the buildings before hand? Do you think that's a mundane occurrance in 100 story skyscrapers? Once again, critical thinking is lacking in your comments. So far as it not coming down exactly like a controlled demolition, are you saying there's another way to do it? And who are these people that died from the basement explosion (which by the way, is clearly visible in any controlled demolition, but not in any of the WTC collapses, which all three start falling apart at the top, not the bottom of the building as per controlled demolition). I am starting to believe you are just fabricating some statements here - so once again, who are these people that died from explosions in the basements as the towers were collapsing? How do you know this?

"If you've seen hundreds of conspiracy videos, you must really have a problem retaining knowledge because everything tells me otherwise."

I've watched dozens of the conspiracy clips, as well as the big daddy of them all, Loose Change. You keep claiming I don't "understand" or "don't know," but in fact we just disagree. It doesn't seem like you're reading my comments very closely and are then replying without much thought.

Also, you clearly haven't read the dozens of other posts between Reber and myself, where we have already covered pretty much everything you have brought up. I'm wondering if you just really, really don't like reading perhaps? But I don't mind repeating myself, it's all in good sport.

"I have seen it."

And you don't find the multitude of errors they point out in the conspiracy as well as the truly manipulative and dishonest nature of the video to in any way inform upon the larger conspiracy and the other videos? Well, then I'd say you want this stuff to be true so bad that your eyes and ears are shut. How do feel about all the gross oversights, incorrect statements, and poor journalistic techniques they use in the film? Doesn't bother you at all that they got so much wrong?

"Why? Because you see my age on my profile and feel like I can't possibly be able to formulate an educated opinion on the subject??

I understand how it must feel to debate this shit with a 19yr old punk kid, but the truth is universal, it wouldn't make any difference if I was 90 or 9 years old."

I don't know your age - I just assumed that somebody who lives at home with their mom hasn't had a lot of experience in the world yet. I'm not actually that old, so you hardly seem a punk kid, nor do I mind debating a younger person, but I will be honest in saying that your unfamiliarity with many of the basic concepts we're discussing here is obvious.

I believe you are capable of forming an educated opinion - anybody is capable of that. You, however, don't seem interested in doing this. I believe that the only information you look at on these subjects comes from pro-conspiracy websites, which basically form your opinion for you.

The basis of an educated opinion is a broad understanding of tertiary issues and all the facts involved - not a pre-made conspiracy viewpoint that you've adopted wholesale from some internet sites.

"Your assumptions are tiring.. you know NOTHING of the amount of critical thinking I've done on the subject and I can ASSURE you it's far more than any average 30-40 year old american."

How could you possibly assure me that? How much critical thinking does the average 30-40 old American do exactly? That statement contains a complete lack of any critical thinking as it's an unverfiable guarantee.

Sorry, coudln't reisist. Like I said, I don't think you're dumb for believing what you do, but I'm also not terribly impressed with the fact that you are so taken with what you've read on the internet that at 19, that you have decided that you understand enough about government, economics, history, sociology, etc that you can say without a hint of doubt that ALL of these conspiracy theories are legit. I don't think you use any real burden of proof or critical thinking, and I think you approach these things as a person ready and willing to be convinced with the slightest of arguments, not as a person looking for hard evidence and solid analysis. I chalk that up to youth, it's not uncommon and at one point in my life I might have found the ideas mroe credible as well.

velimirovich said:

"Mmm, I'm sure of myself because I have done research - I'm quite certain that looked at more information from both sides of the 9/11 thing than you have. On top of that, I majored in political science and history, I have an advanced degree in policy studies, and I'll be heading back for more education shortly. Does this make me smarter? Certainly not."

So you admit I'm smarter than you. Owned biatch.

Click to expand...

I never said it wasn't possible . . . you can be smarter if you want to.

Otherwise, no comment.