9/11 Mysteries

Pertaining to this link: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/250207Conspiracy.htm


More Prison Planet? Do you guys read anything else? Talk about media brainwashing - if you get all of your info from just one source that has a very clear agenda and bias, how can you feel that your knowledge base and opinions aren't directly under their influence?

Look, first of all the article is basically just rundown of the fact that they don't agree with anything in the documentary that suggests there isn't a conspiracy. Excuse me, but could they be anymore whiny? Did they expect it to be a mouthpiece for all of Alex Jones' ideas? Of course not, that would be a sili thing to expect, but Prison Planey felt compelled to right about it anway, which I assume is because they need to write about anything 9/11 conspiracy related in order to drum up material.

From the description in the article, it sounds like the documentary gave a lot more credence to conspiracy ideas than most things - although it tended to advocate the type that iwant8inches describe, which are far more legitimate claims than "controlled demolition" type muck, which is so easy to disprove that it probably wasn't of much interest to the filmmakers.

One of the many inept and stupid points in the article: The author complains that just before the title credits the screen card reads "The theories are only theories and are not proven to be true" or something to that effect. He feels this is a final slight against conspiracists and unfair.

Uh, actually, the whole point of a theory is that we don't know it to be true, it's just our best and most agreed upon explanation according to the evidence. For 9/11, the conspiracy theories aren't the best, most cohesive, or most agreed upon explanations, so they're actually being generous by describing them as theories.

and this one: http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/260207_bbc_bldg7.html

What a suprise, more stuff from Alex Jones! I'm shocked, really.

First of all, I can't seem to view the clip, and I don't understand why they don't stable link it. Regardless, there's no time on the clips, so I'd like to see it for myself. That being said, if the clip gets removed it will be because of copyright infringement, which BBC usually doesn't pursue, not because of some sinister intention.

Alex Jones is fairly clever like that: there's a possiblity the clip may not stick around on the internet, so why not suggest to your readers that this could be 'part of the conspiracy.' That way, if the clip does get removed for any reason whatsoever, you look brilliant and the idea of a conspiracy is enforced to your fans - if it's not removed, no har no foul. You've got repsect that level of insight on how to work your fan base.

"Although there is no clock on the footage, the source claims the report was given at 4:57pm EST, 23 minutes before Building 7 collapsed at 5:20pm. While the exact time of the report cannot be confirmed at present, it is clear from the footage that the reporter is describing the collapse of WTC 7 while it clearly remains standing behind her in the live shot."

Uh, yeah, liked I said, "the source claims." Funny how this is just cropping up now anways, but what I'd really like to confirm is if that's WT7 back there. I have no idea what it looks like from that distance and angle. The conspiracists have been wrong about dumber stuff than this.

"The fact that the BBC reported on the collapse of Building 7 over twenty minutes in advance of its implosion obviously provokes a myriad of questions as to how they knew it was about to come down when the official story says its collapse happened accidentally as a result of fire damage and debris weakening the building's structure."

Hey, I agree. Here's one interesting question - why the hell would some BBC America correspondent be given advance information about our government's murderous conspiracy to blow up the towers, and then be so ravingly stupid as to report the buildings collapse when it's standing right behind her? Anybody want to take a stab at that one? Doesn't make a ton of sense.

Alex Jones and his kind are having to turn to sili stuff like this because the physics and old evidence they used to try and pass off has been disproved time and again. They're left with more news footage from the day, where in this case they actually suggest that a reporter would be given advance knowledge of the collapse for absolutely no reason, and is then so stupid that she jumps the gun on the rest of the news media (are they in on it as well? that was some fine acting when they saw the buildings come down in that case) by ten minutes despite the fact that nobody else was reporting anything. To the average person, this is a very sili proposition - the conspiracist, it's a eureka moment. Grasping at straws is more like it.

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Just wanted to include the ad, which is feature several times embedded in the article. Alex Jones sure is a crusader for truth alright (and his own bank account). Hey, if the guy is such a saint, why not just take donations to pay for the website, or confirm that he donates all his profits to 9/11 families or something? Face it guys, he's making money off selling people the conspiracy info you crave.

"As we have documented before, firefighters, police and first responders were all told to get back from the building because it was about to be brought down. It is widely acknowledged by those who were there on the scene that warnings were issued for people to evacuate the area in anticipation of the building's collapse"

Yeah, three freakin' hours before the building came down - and tons of members of the NYFD have gone on record as stating that there was widespread belief amongst firefighters that had seen the building up close that the thing was going to collapse hours before it came down. If Alex Jones still believes that there was some kind of 'order' given because of the explosives, then all these men are liars. But whatever, he's just rehashing old points to add a few more paragraphs to the article (probably to distract from the lameness of the BBC reporter story).

"Many have speculated that some kind of press release was leaked too soon and AP wires, radio stations and TV news outlets prematurely reported on WTC 7's collapse."

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard (okay not the dumbest, but it's up there). Let's humor the article here: so the government knows the buildings are going to come down, and since it's happening in the heart of the financial capital of the planet and cultural capital of America, it is reasonable to assume that there will be news coverage. But, for some unknown reason, they decide to "leak" the news that WT7 is going to collapse, despite the fact that hundreds of news networks are filming all around it and many have predicted hours earlier that the building will come down because it was so heavily damaged and burning so intensely.

Once again, this make absolutely zero sense. What is the point of leaking it? Conspiracists don't know, and they don't care. They don't need rational explanations to believe what they do.

I'm still waiting for anybody to explain to me the full story of the conspiracy and exactly how everything before and after 9/11 went down. Doesn't need to be a novel, just sort of a walkthrough of everything you believe went on would suffice.

stridge said:

"I wonder why the government doesn't sponsor a truly independant study and debate on 9/11"

If the government sponsors it, how isn't somewhat under their control? Sometimes I don't think you guys would be happy unless the government gave your guru Alex Jones a check for millions of dollars and told him to have at it.

And, if it was investigated again, it would obviously include more private sector engineers (as was the case the first time), who have shown that they unanimously disagree with controlled demolition theories, so I imagine this exercise would be rather disappointing.

Most anything a person needs to know about 9/11 in order to investigate is publicly available now, and more information is being released once it has finished up in investigation all the time. The problem with the government sponsoring such things is that the money needs to come from somewhere, and beleive it or not a lot of people don't like the idea of spending a ton of cash to do the exact same thing twice in a row.

Rest assured, there are enough questions out there and enough standing interest in this that people will keep looking into it. After five years the conspiracists have failed to produce and real evidence of their claims, so things are looking a little grim for that standpoint, but all the same people are free to keep looking into the matter.

"It's hard to come out against the 9/11 Government Conspiracy Theory if you are a big-name person, because the media/everyone else immediately thinks "this guy is kookoo." When I bring up the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job, many people will just utterly refuse anything of the sort and label anyone who thinks so a "conspiracy theorist."

True about media personalities, but you're making an assumption that many of them (besides Charlie Sheen of course) feel there was a conspiracy but aren't saying so. We really don't know that.

The fact is, if you believe 9/11 was an inside job - then you believe in a conspiracy theory. The government plotting to murder thousands of its own citizens in an evil and hyper-elaborate scheme to strip us of all of our civl liberties (for no apparent reason) is most definately a conspiracy theory. People have every right to suggest you're a consiracy guy if you suggest that, and to most it sounds faily unreasonable, hence their negative reactions.

This doesn't mean they're dumb or close-minded, it simply means they take things differently than you and hold different burdens of proof. I know half the fun of being a conspiracist is feeling that everybody who doesn't believe in the conspiracy is just a moronic slave to the lies they're being fed, but trust, plenty of very smart people have looked at this stuff and reject it wholesale.

"Oh, I LOVE SHEEP. Our media controls how we think, so sad."

Sigh. See what I mean. And the media, get over this, please. The media controls your opinions if you let it - but surely you must realize that a good chunk of the media is just straight reporting. If the media says that it's snowing in Buffalo, then by god it probably is. If the media says that Bush is giving a press conference, then by god, I'll bet he is. If the media says a kid fell down a well somewhere, then dollars to donuts there's a kid in a well somewhere.

It's really simple for you guys to just say the media is evil and corrupt and controls everybody's minds because most of it is owned by big scary corporations. Please explain to me exactly how this works. In my opinion this is a really over-simplified and half-baked means of explanation. Demonizing the press at large (except for our beloved prisonplanet.com, which I wouldn't even qualify as actual journalism) is a pretty poor intellectualization of the problems that do exist within mainstream reportage and editorship.

"Wow, now that we're living in a total police state, I guess those guys back in the early 2000s WERE right after all."

Once again, you show you have no faith in everybody else in the country (I often felt the same in college, it's a fairly natural state of mind to possess when you're not old enough to even buy beer). You assume that the whole country is ready to roll over and abandon freedom at the first threat. Hey, you live in Texas, see all those fellas driving around in trucks with gun racks and confederate plates? I'll bet you green money they don't believe George Bush's government helped blow up the towers, but I'll also bet you that those guys aren't exactly thrilled about the idea of giving up all their civil liberties either. Ask one sometime.

Seriously, this whole 'police state' garbage line is part of the Alex Jones science fiction angle that makes the conspiracy stuff so interesting. Some horrible Orwellian scenario is fun to read about on the internet, but it seriously undererstimates the nature of the country and the integrity of its citizens. People aren't dumb and they aren't willing to fork over all of their freedoms, in fact most care about them deeply.

"Oh, and the Engineering graduates here still don't want to debate 9/11 with the "crazy truthers." Alex Jones and friends have exposed so much and debunked so many people/ideas that they know they'll lose."

Really? Have you asked any of them personally and had this response, as in "No sir! I will not debate Alex Jones, he's far to smart and capable and surely a disc jockey from Austin knows far more about engineering than I do, I'm terrified to debate the guy!" Not likely I'm guessing.

As I said before, has it ever occured to you that they just don't care, or that they'd rather not spend their free time getting jeered at by a room full of conspiracy fans? Honestly, for the average engineering kid (not usually the most out-going types), getting yelled at by a room full of rabidly devoted Alex Jones fans as they try to explain some dry building principles probably doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Try offering a handsome cash reward and promise to do everything you can to attract a mixed crowd if you want to draw some itnerest, but please don't assume you're rate based on somebody's unwillingness to do something very unpleasant for no good reason. Remember, most people don't care about this conspiracy stuff in the first place.

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

Oh good god man, this bothers me a little. Could you be any more full of yourself on this? This is one of the main attractions of the conspiracy world - you get to imagine that you're some rightous crusader against tyranny.

Seriously, what you are doing is not public service. What you're doing is a hobby. You want to contribute to liberty and help people? Turn town a lucrative job out of college like I did and go slave away at the ACLU defending civil liberties, go sign up for the peace corps and actually help some people, start training for Teach For America and help disadvantaged kids to compete with the privelaged classes, join the army, join a civil rights advocacy or a multi-cultural group. There are literally hundreds, maybe thousands of options for college students to positively get involved and help their fellow citizens and strengthen the country. Hell, even Greenpeace has an actually legit anti-corporate policy (all their stuff is based on bad things corporations actually do, not what conspiracists imagine they do, so you might not like it).

A couple of undergrads sitting around in somebody's dorm room and watching Alex Jones videos on a laptop and discussing conspiracy ideas is not crusading for liberty. C'mon man, don't try to portray your interests as being somehow more important or worthy than anybody elses. Without any solid evidence of this conspiracy and without any postitive public contribution and service, you guys might as well call playing Dungeons and Dragons fighting a great fight as well. Come to think of it, the two are pretty similar. D&D and 9/11 conspiracies are worlds of fantasy in which young males heavily immerse themselves. At least the D&D kids know it's not real, at least I think they do . . .

Click to expand...

On a quick note, I'm glad you know exactly how I am and how I am so full of myself for actually giving a damn about the world around me.

If you deny that the world is getting more Orweillian, then you are simply a blind fool.

I don't know how many things need to be shown that some parts of the government/corporations are bad.

You, sir, live in a fantasy world, where there aren't people in power that want to see people living like slaves as they live in luxury and are willing to do just about anything to control others. Some people are just sick in this world, and oftentimes, those people are attracted to positions of perceived power (government, police, etc). Just some food for thought.

Oops, BBC just lost the tapes during 9/11. They reported that WTC7 fell long before it ever did, and the lady was standing infront of the building!

Digg - BBC Responds to Building 7 Controversy
BBC Responds to Building 7 Controversy; Claim 9/11 Tapes Lost

10inch,

"On a quick note, I'm glad you know exactly how I am and how I am so full of myself for actually giving a damn about the world around me."

Um, here's what you said before that:

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

You helped liberty stay alive? You fought a great fight? Really? What have you done, how are you 'helping liberty stay alive?' No offense man, but I tore into you because this is the most self-agrandizing statement I've read in a long while. Like I said, don't convince yourself into thinking that your hobby is somehow benefitting the rest of the world. If you want to help out, go do something that affects other people or the community in a positive - don't tell me that reading Alex Jones and talking about his stuff with your buddies is "defending liberty." If you give a damn, do something serious with tangible results, I made quite a few suggestions to get you started.

"If you deny that the world is getting more Orweillian, then you are simply a blind fool."

Exactly as I mentioned in my post - if you don't agree with a conspiracy theorist than you're a retarded plebian marching towards the gallows with a bug grin on your face. Thanks for verifying my comments so clearly.

"I don't know how many things need to be shown that some parts of the government/corporations are bad."

Mmm, who ever disagreed with this? Like I said, I'm a lifelong Democrat - I've worked for the Democratic Party, the ACLU, and done pro-bono work for the NAACP, as well as worked and volunteered on numerous Democratic campaigns, and I've even met good old Ralph Nader - and I also work for a big mean old multi-national. I know very well what happens in the corporate world, and I know very well what goes on in government, good and bad. I've been around both extensively, and I've never denied their failings. What I have denied is what you claim - which is that they're systematically working together to enslave the planet for some reason.

I get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs.

"You, sir, live in a fantasy world, where there aren't people in power that want to see people living like slaves as they live in luxury and are willing to do just about anything to control others."

Really? Because there's a lot of evidence to show that my world is the real one and yours is a conspiracy fantasy. There's horrendous human slavery in this world, but it has nothing to do with microchips or illuminati. It's the same kind of human brutality that has plagued us since the dawn of time - fortunately there's less in the world today than there ever has been at any point in history. There's still a long ways to go in some parts of the world, but I digress, because this isn't what you're talking about.

"Some people are just sick in this world, and oftentimes, those people are attracted to positions of perceived power (government, police, etc). Just some food for thought."

Uh, so then there can't be any good and honest people that enter public service because they believe in it? Trust me buddy, it's easy to believe that the government is controlled by a bunch of greedy psychopaths when you're sitting there in your dorm room, but how can you really say this without having spent any time around government? From what I can tell, you barely know anything about it yet you're totally convinced it's filled with evil people bent on manipulating and dominating everybody else. This is a sci-fi fantasy masquerading as a worldview.

If you really beleive the government is so wicked, emmigrate to a new nation, continue your education there. It's actually not very difficult - Australia would be a great choice. Or better yet, if you believe in this stuff so passionately then write, research, write letters, donate, start a newsletter - put in some work.

Conspiracists believe that the world is headed off a cliff at a hundred miles an hour, but their only reaction seems to be griping about it online and reading prison planet. If you guys really think the end is near, what are you doing to prepare/counter the government's plot to get you?

Still waiting for that comprehensive explanation on 9/11 as well, anybody?

"Still waiting for that comprehensive explanation on 9/11 as well, anybody?"

likewise my good friend, then we can all go to bed... i don't know what exactly went down on 9/11 and prior to that historic day. evidence to destroy my speculations and conspiracy theories resides under lock and key, and may never be released to the public domain.

the starting block here is the moment when the first plane struck the trade centre, so lets begin there.

it'll take 3 minutes to read this link:
Why No Norad On 911? RENSE document(YES! "conspiracy" is their bread & butter) additionally, why hasn't a single black box recorder been recovered from any of the air craft? they are durable beyond belief, and only seldom get recovered when a plane crashes at sea.

here you can find one of the most comprehensive catalogues of 9/11 pics on the net(to my knowledge) Gallery when talking pentagon, can you see even a trace of remnants of a boeing 737 plane? or the associated visual impact evidence on the wall of the pentagon? study them, theres many, many photo's. also, whilst the fire crews battle the blazes in their infancy, can you see the flood of ambulances you'd predict you'd see, since they would have been expecting passengers aboard a plan wouldn't they... its the weirdest "plane crash" and "rescue effort" ive ever wittnessed.

"get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs."

i haven't had to pay for anything. its all free.

"Uh, so then there can't be any good and honest people that enter public service because they believe in it? Trust me buddy, it's easy to believe that the government is controlled by a bunch of greedy psychopaths when you're sitting there in your dorm room, but how can you really say this without having spent any time around government? From what I can tell, you barely know anything about it yet you're totally convinced it's filled with evil people bent on manipulating and dominating everybody else. This is a sci-fi fantasy masquerading as a worldview."

i don't think anyone here, no matter what table they eat at, thinks that everybody is corrupt... thats absurd.
as ive said before i believe that almost, if not all big money is corrupt. its the steriod effect.
also, as ive voiced many times here and in my everyday life, the people that print the money control the world, they always have done and always will do. ultimately the blame lays with the Crown, but the federal reserve is closer to home for you guys... lacerate me at will, but if you can't see that your national debt will inevitably fold your nation sooner rather than later, then there is no car we can both drive.
the banking cartel thats illegally ringing america dry and has been for decades, throws the punches. if 9/11 isn't their template, sure as hell they green lighted it.

Leading Bin Laden expert goes on record as saying the tapes are fake. he joins many others.
Top Bin Laden Expert: Confession Fake | 911Blogger.com

and Stridge, when you're inside something the hardest thing to do is see the outside.


keep pushing

stridge said:

10inch,

"On a quick note, I'm glad you know exactly how I am and how I am so full of myself for actually giving a damn about the world around me."

Um, here's what you said before that:

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

You helped liberty stay alive? You fought a great fight? Really? What have you done, how are you 'helping liberty stay alive?' No offense man, but I tore into you because this is the most self-agrandizing statement I've read in a long while. Like I said, don't convince yourself into thinking that your hobby is somehow benefitting the rest of the world. If you want to help out, go do something that affects other people or the community in a positive - don't tell me that reading Alex Jones and talking about his stuff with your buddies is "defending liberty." If you give a damn, do something serious with tangible results, I made quite a few suggestions to get you started.

Click to expand...

Yes, I am. I am involved in a student organization to help spread the word about corrupt practices in our governments. The greatest thing I do for Love to spread on this earth is by meditating. It is the greatest thing one can do, channeling Source energy on this Earth. This is having a profound impact, which people who don't meditate don't really realize. So yes, I DO do things with serious tangible results.

stridge said:

"If you deny that the world is getting more Orweillian, then you are simply a blind fool."

Exactly as I mentioned in my post - if you don't agree with a conspiracy theorist than you're a retarded plebian marching towards the gallows with a bug grin on your face. Thanks for verifying my comments so clearly.

Click to expand...

Oh really, we aren't losing our liberties? Governments aren't trying to push scary control measures on us? German cops and spooks prep own spyware

That's just one small example. How about the mandatory vaccinations they are trying to push on Texas school girls now?

stridge said:

"I don't know how many things need to be shown that some parts of the government/corporations are bad."

Mmm, who ever disagreed with this? Like I said, I'm a lifelong Democrat - I've worked for the Democratic Party, the ACLU, and done pro-bono work for the NAACP, as well as worked and volunteered on numerous Democratic campaigns, and I've even met good old Ralph Nader - and I also work for a big mean old multi-national. I know very well what happens in the corporate world, and I know very well what goes on in government, good and bad. I've been around both extensively, and I've never denied their failings. What I have denied is what you claim - which is that they're systematically working together to enslave the planet for some reason.

I get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs.

Click to expand...

I never said corporations and the government as a whole are working together to enslave the planet. I said some rogue factions wish to do this. Again, you want to sensationalize your own misinformation to make yourself feel better, which is often what people try to do against those with unpopular stances.

You need to stop sensationalizing all of these things, stridge. You are the biggest elitist-apologist I have EVER seen on any forum. Jesus Christ, I guess it'd take someone in-the-know to actually come out and admit it before you ever accepted anything Orweillian is being put into place.

You apologists will keep on whining and moaning, saying there is nothing to worry about, etc, but you must understand that authoritarian movements need to establish their bases well before they plan to put their plan into effect. It starts with small steps, but it eventually builds into a huge force, with the people not realizing because small rights and liberties are taken away one at a time.

Oops, CNN reported Building 7 was coming down an hour before it did, oh no!
BOMBSHELL: 9/11 COVER-UP UNRAVELING

Alright, we've kind of devolved into bitching about totally unrelated topics here, but to address all the comments:

"Yes, I am. I am involved in a student organization to help spread the word about corrupt practices in our governments. The greatest thing I do for Love to spread on this earth is by meditating. It is the greatest thing one can do, channeling Source energy on this Earth. This is having a profound impact, which people who don't meditate don't really realize. So yes, I DO do things with serious tangible results."

That's nice that you're involved with an organization, but what do you guys do? And frankly, since I think conspiracy theories are pretty useless, I have a hard time accepting that as public service so much as you indulging your interests with other students. If there was a campus group that tried to spread the word about sea monsters because they really beleived in them, I doubt you'd find their activities to be altruistic and beneficial for the greater community.

And, while meditation is a fine activity, you are once again trying to pass of your hobby as something that definately benefits the rest of the world. I won't argue metaphysical points about "source energy" or whatever here, but if you go build some houses with Habitat For Humanity next weekend, then spend the whole next one meditating, guess which weekend will have made the world better? Or better yet, try listing 'meditation' and '9/11 truth movement' on a resume or application under community service and see how far you get.

Honestly, the two things you list don't produce any "serious tangible results." Look up tangible in the dictionary and I think you'll agree.

I'm not lecturing you for not choosing to engage in pulbic service, that's everybody's own choice in our society. What I don't like is people passing off what their recreation as some sort activity that seriously benefits the rest of the world when there are people that actually do get out and work hard to make an impact.

"Oh really, we aren't losing our liberties? Governments aren't trying to push scary control measures on us?"

I remind myself that many people are young when I read comments like this. Show me a government in the world that hasn't undulated between more liberty and mroe control, more freedom and more security. This has been one of, if not the most principle questions in political philosophy since its creation. Some factions push for increased control and the percieved stability and safety this creates, others advocate total liberty and lack of oversight as they feel tyranny is the more potent threat. Governments have pushed for increased control since they were created, and in liberal democracies like ours, the people push back.

There are hundreds if not thousands of books on these topics - I don't know how you can present one news item about some fairly unsupportable secuirty measure in Germany and suggest that it's an inidcator of a greater and more ominous global trend. The debate is far more nuanced and interesting than "evil governments want our liberty, only people that believe in conspiracies and read 'info wars' are doing anything about it. C'mon man, it lowers the level of debate when you make broad generalizations like that.

For every news item you could find about some creepy secuirty crackdown, I could find one about civil liberties and freedom being defended by governments, private groups, and votes by the public. You only look at one side of this issue, and so your view is distorted.

"How about the mandatory vaccinations they are trying to push on Texas school girls now?"

Yeah, I believe for HPV (genital warts). A new study just revealed that nearly a third of women between the ages of 19-24 now carry HPV in the US - that's a problem, as HPV is a primary cause of cervical cancer in women and most never even know that they carry the virus.

Yep, simple vaccinations for serious health risks are pretty scary - sort of like those terrifying laws stipulating how you have to get vaccinated against tetnus and TB before going to public schools - that was some freaky stuff alright. Manditory vaccinations wiped out horrible things like polo, but I'm off track. Try reading some papers on healthcare policy and the real debate over manditory vaccinations before you assume there's some kind of sinister purpose behind it all. And keep lots of condoms around - 1/3 is a shitload of girls and you can catch it too.

"I never said corporations and the government as a whole are working together to enslave the planet. I said some rogue factions wish to do this."

Well, from your comments, it's a little hard to tell what you believe sometimes. For instance, you have repeatedly said that you believe that all mainstream media is corrupt and intentionally manipulates information for some nefarious purpose and so can't be trusted - to me, this would need to be a univeral conspiracy amongst corporations just on the logisitical level.

But since you have made your opinions more specific, what factions do you believe are trying to enslave the planet, and why exactly do they want to do this? Is 9/11 involved with these rogue factions or not? If these so-called rogues are powerful enough that you're actually afraid they are on the path to success, are they really rogues? Enslaving the human race under an iron boot a la 1984 is a difficult feat to accomplish when you really think about it - these must be some pretty major players. If they are rogues, are the good elements of the government and corporate worlds going to work to stop them? How could they not be aware of their activities, and shouldn't they be obligated to prevent their evil rise to power? Just a few basic questions about the nature of your claims, answer as you wish.

"Again, you want to sensationalize your own misinformation to make yourself feel better, which is often what people try to do against those with unpopular stances."

Please clarify how I sensationalize, and also what kind of misinformation I have presented. I don't believe that anything I've said on here has been untrue or deliberately deceptive, so careful with the labeling. And I'm really not doing anything to make myself feel better - in fact, I think I may have helped convince the original poster of this thread that the controlled demolition theories and government callusion on 9/11 are completely ridiculous, so I'm actually fairly pleased with how the debate turned out. And finally, your stances aren't that unpopular. For instance, that BBC video you all linked a ways back is currently one of the most viewed things on internet video sites, and movies like Loose Change have been independently viewd tens of millions of times according to their producers and viewing statistics. Widespread mistrust and fear is actually pretty common, and perhaps even healthy. Using obscenely low standards for forensic evidence and only exposing yourself to information that originates from a clearly biased source (that is itself a thriving cottage industry) is not healthy.

"You are the biggest elitist-apologist I have EVER seen on any forum."

Wow - you should meet my friends and family. Or like I said, go talk to some of your fellow Texans. I don't apologize univerally for the elites, but I will make the case that you seem to know very little about the interworkings of government and industry or even know the basic issues involved, beyond what you read from the various Alex Jones websites. I don't really understand how you can be so univerally opposed to something with such a small knowledge and experience base.

I have repeatedly acknowledged that many bad things can and do happen when it comes to human institutions - government and corporate. Horrible things have happened, did happen, may still happen. As I've said, much less so now that at most points in our history, but the potential remains. The fact that I don't univerally condemn everything governments and corporations do doesn't really make me a raging apologist - it actually just means that I'm objective on the matter, because it's the truth.

And, if you do want an apologist argument in favor of corporations and governments, consider that there is always the possiblity for corruption and tyrany under any government, and that's just the risk we take under the social contract. The potential for domination always exists, and democracy assumes that we as a people are resistant to this idea (and even so, our own government was basically molded out of the fear of tyranny and safeguarding against it, all the while rejecting the idea that anybody but the educated elite should actually be involved in government - bit of a contradiction eh?). That the fact that it could happen is a given, but this doesn't mean that it is happening. All the illuminati hogwash just distracts from the real assaults on our government's integrity and our freedoms.

And corporations, for all their problems, make your life and the life of everybody you know possible. Like the computer you're using? The energy powering it? The car you drove to go buy it? Like that you can buy jeans for under $300? Like that you can go buy cheap food close to where you live without fear of disease? Welcome to the wonderful world of massive commerce and corporate production. You might not like corporations and feel that they're somehow enslaving us, but at the same moment you're pretty much in their backpocket with your lifestyle, so that's at least something to think about. Go read about the debates on the free market and corporate regulation. Corproate excess and abuse is bad and regulating them is good, but so is having a free market and alrge economic enterprises that are profit motivated. There is a balance, and that's what most of us look for. But as I said, unless you want to adopt an anarcho-primitivist philosphy similar to the unabomber's, you're basically latently endorsing the corporate world with your lifestyle, so didn't get too high and mighty on the subject. I could suggest that anytime you switch on the lights you're a silent apologist for the conventions of the corporate world.

"Jesus Christ, I guess it'd take someone in-the-know to actually come out and admit it before you ever accepted anything Orweillian is being put into place."

Gracious, I love George Orwell, hate to see him bandied about like he is (particualrly in college, good lord that was bad). You know what Orwell hated? Totalitarianism. I don't even want to discuss him here, but suffice to say that Orwell's writing were comments on Stalinism and Nazism (and occasionally British colonialism), and the philosophical musing of what happens if we don't vigorously reject the intellectual justifications for those governments. He was commenting on history as much as potential, and while I may doubt that George Orwell would have been immediately pleased withe everything he saw in the modern world, he wouldn't have necessarily labeled things as headed for disaster either. The preponderance of liberal democracies as the most popular model of government would particularly be an encouraging sign. Anyway, the term 'Orwellian' can be applied to quite a few things, so lets not start tossing it around as some kind of faux-literary qualifier for out ideas. I believe I used for levity, let's not pretend it adds weight to what we say.

"You apologists will keep on whining and moaning, saying there is nothing to worry about, etc, but you must understand that authoritarian movements need to establish their bases well before they plan to put their plan into effect."

How am I whining and moaning? I'm just defending a viewpoint, you guys are the ones railing against the world here. I have many complaints, but none of them save for my dislike of suggesting that our own government hatched 9/11 have been discussed here. Gosh you're doing a lot of labeling and midrepresenting for a person that claims to be most interested in truth and transparency.

That's toungue in cheek of course, but to comment on authoritarian movements - let's see, China, Russia, Germany, how long were the largest authoritarian movements in recent history planned? Not all that long at all if you take a look at them. More interestingly, they were didn't exactly come about from collaboration between governments and big money - in fact existing governments and big money hate it when the status quo gets destroyed, not so good for business. Basically, there is no historical example for the kind of conspiracy that you all describe, at least that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure how you can make that statement.

People have been talking about this illuminati crap forever, and nothing has ever come to pass. That hasn't stopped conspiracists from suggesting that most significant world events (at least the one's they're aware of, funny how major events elsewhere on earth, where there are also plenty of powerful people rarely get placed within the conspiracy paradigm) are just ongoing signs that the takeover is coming. This is fairly easy to do - in fact people do the same thing with competint conspiracies regarding space aliens, satanic cults, pretty much whatever you want. The point is, none of it is coherent, supported, or not disputed by tons of real world information.

Pointing out the grossly inconcistent, illogical, unsubstantiated, misinformed nature of the conspiracy world view isn't really the equivelant of acting as a 'whining apologist,' it's simply pointing out facts.

The fact that conspiracists try to frame the argument as a general 'us versus them' debate where everybody that points out the serious errors and assumptive nature of their reasoning is apologizing for evil forces is indicative of the simplistic and ill informed tendencies in most of their arguments.

"It starts with small steps, but it eventually builds into a huge force, with the people not realizing because small rights and liberties are taken away one at a time."

So yeah, tell me how it's going to work, and why the people of the world are just going to take it without a pause. Explain how this being planned, who's up to the planning - or you could start be answering my request to do the same for 9/11, which is afterall the topic of the thread. I'm curous to hear what you guys think about this stuff in some specifics - not what Alex Jones and other website authors have variously written - I want to hear what some average conspiracy theorists think is going on.

"Oops, CNN reported Building 7 was coming down an hour before it did, oh no!"

Wow, amazing, I just changed my mind about everything - that's the smoking gun right there. So now that we know that the government planned the whole thing, why do you think they told a CNN field reported in advance that they were going to blow up WT7 at a certain time? Man, that reporter is almost as dumb as the BBC reporter that the 9/11 planners warned in advance as well. I'm going to write both of them a letter, because I'm pissed they didn't try to warn anybody about 9/11, since they knew in advance in everything. Those are some seriously bad people right there.

Sorry, had to be a little flippant on that one. That video, by the way, is also currently one of the most viewed online - interestingly the world doesn't seem to flaring with outrage. This means one of two things: A) We're all passive sheep, just as you've stated on this thread, and only conspiracy theorists that spend a lot of time on the internet can see the forest for the trees, or B) Most people interested in 9/11 conspiracies are on the internet a lot and mailing those videos around all over the place because they're really excited about it. Meanwhile the rest of the world isn't burning up without outrage because they see nothing particularly significant or damning in the video and realize that the conspirators tipping off random CNN field reporters an hour before the building collapsed is pretty damn sili.

Reber187 said:

you have shifted your opinion and thats your decision based on the evidence you've been exposed to.

i ask you this, have you read the NIST report?

if you have read it, im sure you'll agree that it does NOT explain, prove, evident, how the buildings collapsed... it hypothizes. if thats fact for you and who ever else wishes to deem it so then good for you... i ain't for me.

"I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.

your faith in government and the elite is beyond me.

if ten men are stood in a line, and you're told the one 3rd from left has served time for multiple rape convictions, and then your informed a women was raped in the some village as this man lives last night and he was in that very village; who do you think it is morethanlikely commited that rape?

history only knows truth. the administration need to prove their innocents... they have not and cannot.

where will your allegiance lie when Iran, Lybia, or Venezula feels the brunt of America's template of power extension? i guess we'll just wait and see.

and don't ask for the "proof" of this or the "proof" of that. we both know the solid eveidence that would expose the inside job was removed from the site... which began on september 11th.
is it not a federal offence to tamper with a crime scene? FUCK NO, not for 9/11, coz the rules were suspended for 9/11... fuck it, we'll even suspend the rules of gravity, why not... how about we break all the rules and then tell 'em what to think.

how can you swallow this shit? how can you swallow "offical" reports, studies, etc that lie and distort fact? NIST wrote that there were no central columns in the trade centres core... WTF!!! no columns, just hollow shafts. this is incredible.

then we see images of central columns in the base of the core that have been perfectly sliced at a 45% angle, precisely what the function of a cutter charge is, to make the column walk.

"pancake theory"... bends the rules of physics until it snaps. this is clearly not what could have happened.

"molten steel", if it wasn't, then what was it that was lingering at ground zero for weeks on end, emenating tremendous heat all this time after. i'd like to here your answer, coz either way it must be fucking hot. we've all seen it dripping, we've all seen its yelow/orange resplendant hue.

and as for the collapse time, was it a minute plus? no. end of. science proves that the collapse was not pancaking by dint of fire and plane damage. a load berring, steel framed building would have gone down fighting if this was the case. but she fell like a bitch on smack.

the list goes on, yet no plausable explaination has been served up by scientific fact. the conspiracy therorists ARE the people that revert to science and work with whats at their despense. conveniently the physical evidence is few and far between.


keep pushing

Click to expand...

I don’t think you read my post.

I’ve stated that I don’t agree with the NIST’s conclusions because their physical tests appear to contradict their computer simulations where they essentially doubled the parameters to simulate the conditions of the buildings along with the duration they were exposed to the fires. The NIST couldn't find any steel hotter than 1112 F, and 98% of their steel samples were under 500F.

So, just because I find fault in the plausibility in arguing that explosives were used to bring down the buildings makes me “one of them” or an official liner who only bows to the elites? This is not very conducive to a good discussion.

I think that the use of thermate is about as fair of a hypothesis as there is, but the burden of proof is on anyone who claims its veracity. Where is the proof? I am extremely angered by the way the evidence of the crime committed that day was handled. 9/11 was unprecedented and the single most devastating tragedy to hit this country and AT LEAST that part of the “investigation” was handled horribly. There is plenty reason to be suspicious there. That said I am nearly as angry at the people who make films filled with distortions and misrepresentations of facts and other information to build an argument. I feel sick for being duped into believing some of the things I did at first. Just be honest. I cannot stand being lied to, but it's usually not because someone lied to me. It's that I believed them when I could have found out for myself.

And your point about not needing proof doesn’t make sense. What are you going to do then? Go into a courtroom and represent the people in this case with what the movement has and it’d be the saddest sight quite possibly ever. I don’t need proof of anything because do not hypothesize what “actually” happened. I’d like to see a better investigation into this, but I feel that right now the best route to pursue is to reprehend those directly responsible for knowingly (which will be difficult to prove on its own) giving false information and make certain that if another disaster occurs the crime scene isn’t destroyed until all facts are known.

And what is it that makes you think that the laws of gravity were suspended that day? It took me until I read the NIST report that the official time of the collapses for WTC 1 and 2 are not known exactly, but instead of the free fall speed the times that are actually accepted is around 16 seconds.

I’m just asking for some cleaning up. Some theories out there make it impossible for another to be possible so I just take that as someone not knowing the available facts that have been verified and supported within the academic/scientific communities.

To be clear though I started this thread with questions about what people thought of the 9/11 Mysteries movie. I recently sort got on the bad side of some local “truthers” because I brought up some of the stuff found on debunking sites and they automatically dismissed it without providing an actual reason. It seems that there are more truthers out there that just want to affirm their own beliefs/biases. I didn’t switch “sides.”

Personally, I find that what 10inchadvantage is doing along with PNACitizen(UT Austin?? Isnn’t it?) is good so as long as the debate stays within reason. I’d like to know if he had any inside track as to putting together a public discussion in Columbus, OH. I’m out for the truth as well, but I do not have all the answers. Let’s get rid of the distorted facts wherever they originate.

iwant8inches -

i did just write that your "opinion" has shifted, because i read(at least i believe it was you) that you now want solid proof. i commented that this is indeed a remarkable ask since the crime scene was grossly tampered with almost before the dust had settled... a federal offence.

i now fully understand your stance on the matter.

and just for the record i don't bracket those who believe one thing opposed to another.


keep pushing

I think I need to just stop posting here. Some people just don't understand True Freedom, the freedom of not having to get their animals RFID chipped, the freedom of not having to take ANY vaccines, the freedom of being a pure human being (pure water, no flouride in water). There are many other hugely corrupt things that have happened, like the Bushes working with the Nazis.

I have gotten really frustrated with all of this stuff. Some people just don't accept that there are sick people just like Hitler incarnated on this planet. Some people don't realize the value of some actions.

Very spiritual people say some weird things, act weird too, but I think I can better understand the great saints and the Buddha himself, which I shall quote, "He who has seen both the Void and Nirvana is very hard to understand."

In my own spiritual quests I have seen things that no one else around me realizes. People have to take LSD and stuff like that to get a grasp of it, and even then drugs are full of confusion.

This thread is getting me nowhere and is just bad for my own mental clarity. All I have to say is Stridge repeatedly uses ad hominem attacks against me just because I am "young and stupid (lack wisdom, haven't 'seen the world')." Well, Stridge, I'm sure you're just a genius old man then who has some great wisdom. Stridge, you're also a "coincidence theorist."

9/11 Truth is getting even more help, and the truth is coming out thanks to BBC now and others. The movement is looking good, and I will be there to support the uncovering of corruption and truth until humanity becomes spiritual.

Clearly, some people just will never accept the fact that governments have and will kill their own people just for their own advantage. It took me over three years to come to that fact, but I am glad I have seen it.

10inchadvantage,

Sorry if you feel I've used ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure where I've done so, but I wouldn't say anything I've said has actually been an attack. I've criticized, affected sarcasm, things of that nature, but I don't think that it's in anyway fair to dismiss all my comments in this fashion.

If you choose not to take the time or interest to respond to specific points, that's completely fine, but it's not very cool to cut some excuse about it and suggest that I'm making personal attacks on you. Here's the most critical thing I'll ever say to you on this thread or any other - that's immature bullshit and excuse-making.

It is true that I have suggested that you are young and not very well informed on certain topics. We certainly know that you are young, I believe a fresHydromaxan in college judging from your other comments, and I have repeatedly stated that it appears to me that you are not very well informed about history, economics, political science, nor are you very well read on some of these topics. Now, I assume this based on your tendency to draw very broad and general conclusions about very complicated issues and events, often only siting conspiracy websites as definitive evidence. But, I have taken care to point out that this is just how it appears to me. There is a difference between this and simply calling you "stupid," which I have never done.

The fact that you would so grossly mischracterize my comments and falsley suggest that I've called you stupid at anytime doesn't lend a lot of credibility to what you have to say, so I don't feel bad for my above comments about excuse-making and such. Grow up, man.

"Some people just don't understand True Freedom, the freedom of not having to get their animals RFID chipped, the freedom of not having to take ANY vaccines, the freedom of being a pure human being (pure water, no flouride in water). There are many other hugely corrupt things that have happened, like the Bushes working with the Nazis."

I assume this is referring to me since I'm the only talking to you, so I'll just briefly address it. In short, I think you're wrong. I do actually understand freedom and the sacrifices made for it quite well, and I also know that the maintenence of a free society and the preservation of a liberal ideal are not always black and white tasks with clearly defined paths to success. I turned down a very lucrative position and held off grad school straight out of undergrad to work for peanuts at the ACLU - who work very hard to protect your civil liberties, and I liked it so much that I stuck around for three years. What have you ever done? Please don't tell me I don't know about freedom.

It is comments like these that betray the conspiracy mindset, which is that nobody knows anything if they don't agree with you (another example would be frequently referring to people that don't agree with you as sheep). Just because I don't think what you believe is accurate doesn't mean that I don't understand freedom. This is once again simplifying a very complicated topic to a criminal degree.

By the way, chlorine in the water helps people maintain dental health, especially poor people taht can't afford dental care, and we all know about the Bush's and war profiteering. What that has do with the state of our liberty now, I really don't know. Braun corporation used to make the ovens for the Jews (my European ancestors by the way), so I guess if you've ever had a cup of coffee made in one of their machines then you're undermining the human cause as well? Obviously hyperbole there, but think about what you're suggesting with these examples.

"I have gotten really frustrated with all of this stuff. Some people just don't accept that there are sick people just like Hitler incarnated on this planet. Some people don't realize the value of some actions."

Once again, I guess I'm some people. There are millions of sick people everywhere, but I find the tendency of people to always come back to Hitler interesting in these debates. Hitler was as much a product of very specialized conditions as anything else, so I'm not sure how you feel this comment is pertinent to our current situation. Have you ever read about why democracy failed in the interwar period in Europe and the exact social conditions that allowed a despot like Hitler to rise to power? It was a little more complicated than him burning down the Reichstag and scaring everybody. The example really doesn't apply in anyway and I'm not sure what you're trying to say with it.

So far as the value of certain actions, like what? If you strip this statement for meaning, it carries little intention accept to say that I apparently don't understand what is going in the world, a statement with which I beg to differ.

"Very spiritual people say some weird things, act weird too, but I think I can better understand the great saints and the Buddha himself, which I shall quote, "He who has seen both the Void and Nirvana is very hard to understand."

You should talk to my mom, she's got a doctorate in comparative religion and was a practicing Taoist when she met my dad. She's met the Dala Lama and she wrote a once popular book on how Zen Buddhism has influenced western new-age spirituality. I have no idea what you're talking about with the above quote, but I mention my family background to qualify my earlier comments about not exactly buying the fact that you meditating in your dorm room is making the world a better place. I've been around this stuff all my life, and I've never heard and expert on Buddhism suggest that their search for enlightenment was great for everybody else or that it helped them understand things related to conspiracies that the rest of us can't understand.

"In my own spiritual quests I have seen things that no one else around me realizes. People have to take LSD and stuff like that to get a grasp of it, and even then drugs are full of confusion."

Still not sure what this has to do with our discussion about conspiracy theories, but it looks like you're not too interested in discussing that anymore. I don't feel one way or another about hallucingenics as a path to better udnerstanding, but John Lennon disagrees with you.

"This thread is getting me nowhere and is just bad for my own mental clarity."

I tend to feel that focused exercise and argument is the best mental exercise there is. The ability to formulate and defend a strong argument while also scrutinizing another is considered one of the highest forms of mental activity going back to the classical world. I feel, however, that judging from your lack of remarks and lack of effort in defending your points/answering my questions that you aren't really interested in debating anything, but rather entered the debate because you were either annoyed or insulted that somebody disagreed with you.

This is a natural reaction when you see something you believe deconstructed, but the lack of desire to defend it signals to me that you prefer to leave your beliefs unexamined. Hopefully this will change since you're in college and in the prime time of your life for learning. Plus, if a thread on a freakin' Penis Enlargement board is bad for your mental clarity, then you probably need to go talk to a professional or something.

"All I have to say is Stridge repeatedly uses ad hominem attacks against me just because I am "young and stupid (lack wisdom, haven't 'seen the world')."

Addressed this comment earlier, never called you stupid. I will say that you're nineteen and you only cite Alex Jones sponsored websites and articles for 99% of what you say. Alex Jones isn't a journalist or a credible commentator - he's a radio talk show host that now runs a whole bunch of websites and makes scare tactic films that masquerade as documentary. This guy is your guru, so yes, in some respects I have no problem saying that you're not a very worldly individual. Sorry, most fresHydromaxan in college aren't.

"Well, Stridge, I'm sure you're just a genius old man then who has some great wisdom. Stridge, you're also a "coincidence theorist."

Old man? Listen here sonny, I'm not all that much older than you are, although we definately didn't grow up watching the same cartoons. I've never suggested any great wisdom, just lots more experience, reading, and a more balanced sense of how to evaluate information.

And, what is a coincidence theorist, and how do my comments make me one? There is no context or explanation for this statement, it's just tacked onto the end of your comments.

"9/11 Truth is getting even more help, and the truth is coming out thanks to BBC now and others. The movement is looking good, and I will be there to support the uncovering of corruption and truth until humanity becomes spiritual."

Until humanity becomes spiritual? It hasn't always been spiritual? Religion and transcendent practices are some of the earliest examples of higher human thought that we have. Most of the world practices religion, wars are currently being fought over religion, not to mention the millions of religious and spiritual books, organizations, films, art, geeze . . . nevermind.

No effense man, but I don't think it's a brilliant idea to blaze up some of those sticky buds before you post about this stuff. Your comments are pretty unfocused and some just plain don't make sense.

"Clearly, some people just will never accept the fact that governments have and will kill their own people just for their own advantage. It took me over three years to come to that fact, but I am glad I have seen it."

Uh, once again, get real here. Governments do this, and in fact there doing it right now (ever pay much attention to Africa?). The fact that governments are corruptable and some do horrible things does not mean that our government plotted and carried a massive conspiracy to murder its own citizens. This is a leap in logic that would get you waxed by any seventh grade debate team member worth their salt.

Anybody knows government has been responsbile for terrible stuff, and plenty of good stuff as well. The argument you make with that statement is so general and unsupported that it's practically meaningless. This is the stuff I'm talking about. Make your case with facts, specifics, nuance, anticipation - don't just tell that governments are capable of doing bad things. My car is capable of killing a dog, but that doesn't mean I'm guilty if somebody's poodle gets run over a hundred miles from where I live.

Anyway, if you really feel like debating conspiracy theories with me on the internet is hurting your mental health or something, then by all means don't post anymore.

As for the rest (uh, Reber?), I'd still love to hear somebody's complete picture/timeline on 9/11 or any of the illuminati/world-takover theories. I'm just trying to get a full grip on what it is you guys believe, because to be honest for the life of me I can't find a completist picture on any of the gazillion conspiracy sites out there.

Spirituality != religion. Spirit = love.

By channeling Light we further enlighten our planet and bring the presence of light around others.

I have some test tomorrow, I guess I'll clarify more later.

On second thought, scratch that. I'll just have to learn a great spiritual lesson to STFU about spirit things. People who have not felt divine light cannot feel, therefore see, what enlightened people talk about.

It's sad for me to see that I can never help anyone out spiritually. It's all up to them to go through ego games until they feel the Bliss.

Btw, I never called you a sheep.

Never said you called me a sheep - but conspiracy theorists, including, do at times refer to anybody that doesn't believe in conspiracies as 'sheep.' Comparing those that don't agree with you to an animal principally known for its ease of control, stupid nature and fearfullness is fairly nasty, but whatever.

Not sure what you're getting at with all the spiritual enlightenment stuff. With the usual disclaimer of no offense, doesn't it generally take Buddhist masters years and years of deep inward contemplation and regimented study to achieve anything even approximating enlightenment? As I said, I'm not into that stuff, but seriously, aren't you not even old enough to buy beer?

Anyway, I post on this thread to discuss 9/11 and conspiracy theories in general. I'm sure your spiritual quest thing is interesting, but we're getting pretty far off topic here.

Reber187 said:

"Still waiting for that comprehensive explanation on 9/11 as well, anybody?"

likewise my good friend, then we can all go to bed... i don't know what exactly went down on 9/11 and prior to that historic day. evidence to destroy my speculations and conspiracy theories resides under lock and key, and may never be released to the public domain.

the starting block here is the moment when the first plane struck the trade centre, so lets begin there.

it'll take 3 minutes to read this link:
Why No Norad On 911? RENSE document(YES! "conspiracy" is their bread & butter) additionally, why hasn't a single black box recorder been recovered from any of the air craft? they are durable beyond belief, and only seldom get recovered when a plane crashes at sea.

here you can find one of the most comprehensive catalogues of 9/11 pics on the net(to my knowledge) Gallery when talking pentagon, can you see even a trace of remnants of a boeing 737 plane? or the associated visual impact evidence on the wall of the pentagon? study them, theres many, many photo's. also, whilst the fire crews battle the blazes in their infancy, can you see the flood of ambulances you'd predict you'd see, since they would have been expecting passengers aboard a plan wouldn't they... its the weirdest "plane crash" and "rescue effort" ive ever wittnessed.

"get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs."

i haven't had to pay for anything. its all free.

"Uh, so then there can't be any good and honest people that enter public service because they believe in it? Trust me buddy, it's easy to believe that the government is controlled by a bunch of greedy psychopaths when you're sitting there in your dorm room, but how can you really say this without having spent any time around government? From what I can tell, you barely know anything about it yet you're totally convinced it's filled with evil people bent on manipulating and dominating everybody else. This is a sci-fi fantasy masquerading as a worldview."

i don't think anyone here, no matter what table they eat at, thinks that everybody is corrupt... thats absurd.
as ive said before i believe that almost, if not all big money is corrupt. its the steriod effect.
also, as ive voiced many times here and in my everyday life, the people that print the money control the world, they always have done and always will do. ultimately the blame lays with the Crown, but the federal reserve is closer to home for you guys... lacerate me at will, but if you can't see that your national debt will inevitably fold your nation sooner rather than later, then there is no car we can both drive.
the banking cartel thats illegally ringing america dry and has been for decades, throws the punches. if 9/11 isn't their template, sure as hell they green lighted it.

Leading Bin Laden expert goes on record as saying the tapes are fake. he joins many others.
Top Bin Laden Expert: Confession Fake | 911Blogger.com

and Stridge, when you're inside something the hardest thing to do is see the outside.


keep pushing

Click to expand...

stridge -

again i'll state i dont know precisely what the "new world order" has up its starched sleeve nor do i know of a template for world take over. i just want answers to my simple questions encompassing 9/11... if an investigation had been carried out immediately(as you would expect for the greatest crime commited against America) then i wouldn't have battered an eyelid. when that was not implemented it raises the eyebrow of suspicion, why was the crime scene of 9/11 cleared? why would you do that? and what motive is there to do so? the stench of fish becomes overwhelming, you cannot deny how backward the investigation of 9/11 has been... and as ive stated many times its a federal law to tamper with a crime scene. whats your answer to this? is the government above the law or not?

new world order shit:-

Vladimir Putin to the assembled participants of the annual Munich Wehrkunde security conference:-
Putin spoke in general terms of Washington's vision of a 'unipolar' world, with 'one center of authority, one center of force, one center of decision-making, calling it a 'world in which there is one master, one sovereign. And at the end of the day this is pernicious not only for all those within this system, but also for the sovereign itself because it destroys itself from within.'

Then the Russian President got to the heart of the matter: 'Today we are witnessing an almost uncontained hyper use of force - military force - in international relations, force that is plunging the world into an abyss of permanent conflicts. As a result we do not have sufficient strength to find a comprehensive solution to any one of these conflicts. Finding a political settlement also becomes impossible.'

Putin continued, 'We are seeing a greater and greater disdain for the basic principles of international law. And independent legal norms are, as a matter of fact, coming increasingly closer to one state's legal system. One state and, of course, first and foremost the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way. This is visible in the economic, political, cultural and educational policies it imposes on other nations. Well, who likes this? Who is happy about this?'

to read more:
Feb 19, 2007 V. Putin and the Geopolitics of the New Cold War... William Engdahl 321gold

when he speaks with this patent aggression about the conflict America is producing and a new arms race it worries me.

then--

a theory model of how the new world order might come about in the now:

Once you understand the Illuminati’s modus operandi of Ordo Ab Chao (”order out of chaos”) everything begins to make perfect sense. Bilder-Bush and Bilder-Blair conspire to trap America in Iraq while Bilder-Blair works closely behind the scenes with both the EU and the UN who then proclaim America to be the new Evil Empire. Then here we have the next “prime minister-in-waiting” (pre-selected by the Bilderberg elite obviously) to roll out the next phase which is the complete damning of America in the eyes of the world and subsequent absorption into the global government after a chastising in the fires of WWIII. All of this is staged, set up and engineered for public consumption. All of it is designed to bring America down to its knees because only by destroying America can the New World Order be realized. And after that, the whole world can kiss their freedoms goodbye and accept their total enslavement.

America is bank rolling its self for the occupation in the middle east, national debt is astronomical, taxes and inflation rise periodically, another great depression is just round the corner. the world now views America as the enemy, the aggressor, the bully. IF a pre-empted attack befalls another "noncompliant" country at the hands of the united states, i for one will be very concerned indeed... thats where im at.


keep pushing

stridge said:

Never said you called me a sheep - but conspiracy theorists, including, do at times refer to anybody that doesn't believe in conspiracies as 'sheep.' Comparing those that don't agree with you to an animal principally known for its ease of control, stupid nature and fearfullness is fairly nasty, but whatever.

Not sure what you're getting at with all the spiritual enlightenment stuff. With the usual disclaimer of no offense, doesn't it generally take Buddhist masters years and years of deep inward contemplation and regimented study to achieve anything even approximating enlightenment? As I said, I'm not into that stuff, but seriously, aren't you not even old enough to buy beer?

Anyway, I post on this thread to discuss 9/11 and conspiracy theories in general. I'm sure your spiritual quest thing is interesting, but we're getting pretty far off topic here.

Click to expand...

Enlightenment (in my view) = feeling of divine bliss when meditating
The "enlightenment" in many older texts refers to what I would call Liberation of the Soul, when you transcend the karmic law.

So, many people on this world are enlightened, not many are liberated.

Yes, this thread is getting off topic.

I guess the easiest way to put it is that those who have been convinced that 9/11 was an inside job will go on pursuing whatever they feel is necessary, as will those that don't think it was.

Hey Reber,

So far as the 9/11 site not being properly investigated, I don't seem to have as much information on that as you all, but I fail to see what the whole problem was. First of all, 9/11 was something that had no precident. You need only look at hurricane Katrina and it's aftermath to see how incompitent and disorganized our government agencies are when they're in crisis and response mode. While I'm certain there were mistakes and snafus all the way down the line, I haven't seen anything that suggests criminal tampering. And, as I said, nothing like 9/11 ever happened before - I don't think that there was any set of instructions to guid the decision making process in the immediate aftermath. It's just something to consider when looking at this stuff.

I really don't see how the scene was 'cleared.' There were hundreds of millions of tons of rubble, it took months to get everything hauled away. As I've said before, the investigating scientists took as many samples as they needed - it's not like they were going to collect and study every shred of debris at Ground Zero. And keeping the area restricted isn't fishy to me, it's common sense. Not only was the place a major health hazard, but the top levels of government are naturally going to want to strictly control access and investigation into an area like that so there is order and control. Anyway if you let me know what you're referring to more specifically I can probably comment more articulately.

So far as Putin discussing armed conflict, I can't read too much into that. Putin is a thig and smart manipulator, and he's not afraid to switch on the anti-US rhetoric when it serves his purposes, but the Russian government also works very closely and happily with us on many things. Leaders publicly criticize and cut deals behind the scenes; that's how diplomacy has worked since the beginning. Russia has some potential, but they're a loooooong ways away from being able to finance arms build-up and actually be a seriously competative force. Their only chance for unlocking their resource potential is western investment - trust me on this one, it's directly related to what I do for a living. Putin is an old school realist when it comes to international relations, but he understands the globalized model as well, and he plays both strategies. But don't take some tough-guy chatter from Russia as a sign of impending catastrophe - he's basically just spouting off at the muzzle to placate anti-US government that Russia works with.

The Illuminati model is interesting, but it makes several assumptions that are somewhat dubious to me. For starters, it implies that the British political system is a farce where PMs and pre-ordained to rise to power with a specific agenda. This means democracy in your country is a sham, which I really don't think there's any evidence to support and I don't feel that's something that you could keep a secret in the UK for so long - you know how your tabloids are! Just kidding with that, but do you really think that democracy is just a show in the UK and Parliament is all on board with this world takover business? You know how Parliament is as well, and if what you say about the PMs is true, then every member must be cooperating with the conspiracy as well. That means all their staffs down there at Whitehall (I think that's what it's called? It's been a while) are knowledgable as well, because they could hardly work for an MP without being aware that everything he does is under the service of this conspiracy agenda to support a corrupt and unfairly appointed PM working on a global conspiracy. Frankly it all get a little unbelievable to me when I break it down into logistics this way - too many people, too hard to organize, too hard to keep secret, just too many variables. It's hard to keep small secrets amongst small groups of people - take Watergate in America as an example - this seems well enough impossible.

Another thing I don't get - a lot of what you've said about the global conspiracy implies that America is in on it, yet it also involves the downfall of America. Who amongst our government want to see it destroyed? None have a change of heart and decide they like having power in their own country and turn on the Illuminati? Basically some generation of leaders and business in the US will get screwed when we are eventually taken down, so what is their motivation to participate? And finally, this is pretty obvious but if America really is destroyed, it would cause a more or less global economic collapse that would wipe out the wealth and power of most the nations that I assume would be leading the new world order and many, many very wealthy people would lose everything. Considering the vested interest the wealthy have in maintaining their wealth, I really doubt so many of the power-elite would be willing to go along with this plan. If the international markets collapse - and they would without the US being involved - billionaires the world over would love just about everything. This makes it hard to believe that all these Larry Silverstein (who isn't really all that high up on the wealth table worldwide) types are actually willing to go along with this.

Plus, wealthy people and government thrive from commerce - most of the wealthy would lose everything if democracy were abolished under a global system and human society was enslaved. What is the point of enslaving everybody bring the downfall of everything as we know it? Why bother with this masssive scheme? Who really benefits by causing this?

Plus, what you describe involves America remaining as a prime aggressor in world affairs. That seems plausible at the moment, but as we speak out Democratic Congress is working to stop our involvement in Iraq and undermine Bush, and it's very likely that we'll have a black or female Democratic president in 2008, who are both committed to a non-aggressive foreign policy. Are Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton signed on to help America tank itself so the NWO can take over as well? Are our elections rigged to suit this plan? If they are and the Illuminati people really have this much control, why has it taken them so long and why have they let US power become so hegemonic rather than impliment a one-world system when we were far weaker and it would have been much easier?

There are just so many things that make absolutely no sense to me about this, but I do find it interesting. What would you need to see happen to change your mind about this NWO thing? What if the US became internationally popular again and a new age of international peace and prosperity came around? I know it seems more likely in the Cold War mentality that a lot of this conspiracy stuff seems to operate under, but the fact is, a third world war is highly unlikely. Even with our military stretched thin, the US is just too powerful for anybody to defeat and it wouldn't do anybody any good to engage us and our allies. The realist era is over, we're into globalized economies now and a much more complicated international system. That doesn't mean we're developing into a one-world order, but it does mean that wars are more costly than ever before and nations are apt to work harder to avoid them - which is actually a good thing.

"So, many people on this world are enlightened, not many are liberated."

PRobably what I was referring to, didn't know you were using your own personal defenitions for things.

"I guess the easiest way to put it is that those who have been convinced that 9/11 was an inside job will go on pursuing whatever they feel is necessary, as will those that don't think it was."

As I said, the debate is interesting, I'm not hear to defeat anybody, just to ask questions and defend my viewpoint. One thing that I feel is inaccurate is that the idea that 9/11 conspiracists are pursuing anything. There's a big difference between searching for the truth and searching for tidbits of information that enforce your already existing assumption about something.

As far as I can tell, the 9/11 "Truth" thing only seeks to sustain itself because the people involved like the idea of a conspiracy, not to objectively evaluate information.

Iwant8inches is a good example of somebody that is applying a high standard to both sides of the argument and actively seeking to really understand the circumstances around 9/11 - read his posts closely to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

hey stridge -

firstly i'd like to thank you for continuously replying in this thread, i respect your words and have learned many aspects of politics on a white collar scale that i would not have been exposed to otherwise.

investigation: what i know is that a chinesse company(i think they're called 'chinesse demolition' believe it or not) began clearing the vast amounts of structural steel from the site before any appointed authority could do what they do. the steel was then held briefly on Statan island(i think thats where) and then shipped to china to be melted down.

FEMA & NIST studied some remnants of steel many months and years after respectively that were not shipped. ok, that doesn't sound like a cyclopean, shout from the roof top conspiracy, i agree... however, ive seen pics of core colums of the wtc's that are perfectly sliced at 45%. we've been over this and i find it a phenomenal occurance if it wasn't a cutter charge(i have linked a page somewhere from the worlds biggest demolition firm which debunks 9/11, but on its site clearly describes the effect on H-beams etc when exposed to a cutter charge)

these 45% phenomena's have not been touched upon by FEMA & NIST that im aware of, and its a trademark of visual demolition as stated by the worlds biggest demolition firm. was the steel they have access to selected? it makes me wonder.

also the lack of governmental or larry silverstein appointed meastro engineers descending upon ground zero to deconstruct what occured on 9/11 so that an engineering failer of that calibre would never befall the world again made me wonder. you yourself said Larry has to rebuild, would it not have been shrewd to employ the best of the best to figure out what on earth happened... this isnt how matters played out was it, it was left months before anything of that ilk was put in motion.

again with the molten metal/steel(or what ever it was) this has been a glaring omission from FEMA & NIST. im sure you have seen the videos of firefighters, workman and the like, describing how 6 weeks after the attack there is still a lava -esque substance emitting incredible heat at ground zero... a confirmed temp of 1100c was given, thats very hot, and another phenomena excluded by the investigation squads and their reports. why haven't they been covered, the world knows, and knew about it, why didn't they.

these are not small issues that can be brushed aside and swept under the rug, they are significant issues that have been shrouded by denial and refutation.

as for Putin, im versed with what this mans about and his politic ideologies and muscle(no where near as much as you though i would think) its just that he expressed intentions of a new arms race and hinted heavily toward space weapons. i listen to the underground grapevine and for a while now theres been chit chat about this very subject and accompanying it has been nano weapons... i know hes as much about showmanship and playground verbatim as the next head of state, however the mention of a new arms race, whatever the context is huge, this is considering we haven't heard anything like this in a great while. i find these worrying words, thats all.

new world order shit. you asked for the timeline/programme, i gave it you.

"What would you need to see happen to change your mind about this NWO thing? What if the US became internationally popular again and a new age of international peace and prosperity came around?"

as ive stated many, many times i belive that it is the superbankers that own the banks in their little cartel that control the world because they print the money. if there is a new world order it is them(besides the Crown of course, "he who rules the oceans...")

america is going to sink into a self inflicted chasm very soon because of the federal reserve. i stand by that and sing it.


keep pushing

Reber187 said:

stridge -

again i'll state i dont know precisely what the "new world order" has up its starched sleeve nor do i know of a template for world take over. i just want answers to my simple questions encompassing 9/11... if an investigation had been carried out immediately(as you would expect for the greatest crime commited against America) then i wouldn't have battered an eyelid. when that was not implemented it raises the eyebrow of suspicion, why was the crime scene of 9/11 cleared? why would you do that? and what motive is there to do so? the stench of fish becomes overwhelming, you cannot deny how backward the investigation of 9/11 has been... and as ive stated many times its a federal law to tamper with a crime scene. whats your answer to this? is the government above the law or not?

new world order shit:-

Vladimir Putin to the assembled participants of the annual Munich Wehrkunde security conference:-
Putin spoke in general terms of Washington's vision of a 'unipolar' world, with 'one center of authority, one center of force, one center of decision-making, calling it a 'world in which there is one master, one sovereign. And at the end of the day this is pernicious not only for all those within this system, but also for the sovereign itself because it destroys itself from within.'

Then the Russian President got to the heart of the matter: 'Today we are witnessing an almost uncontained hyper use of force - military force - in international relations, force that is plunging the world into an abyss of permanent conflicts. As a result we do not have sufficient strength to find a comprehensive solution to any one of these conflicts. Finding a political settlement also becomes impossible.'

Putin continued, 'We are seeing a greater and greater disdain for the basic principles of international law. And independent legal norms are, as a matter of fact, coming increasingly closer to one state's legal system. One state and, of course, first and foremost the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way. This is visible in the economic, political, cultural and educational policies it imposes on other nations. Well, who likes this? Who is happy about this?'

to read more:
Feb 19, 2007 V. Putin and the Geopolitics of the New Cold War... William Engdahl 321gold

when he speaks with this patent aggression about the conflict America is producing and a new arms race it worries me.

then--

a theory model of how the new world order might come about in the now:

Once you understand the Illuminati’s modus operandi of Ordo Ab Chao (”order out of chaos”) everything begins to make perfect sense. Bilder-Bush and Bilder-Blair conspire to trap America in Iraq while Bilder-Blair works closely behind the scenes with both the EU and the UN who then proclaim America to be the new Evil Empire. Then here we have the next “prime minister-in-waiting” (pre-selected by the Bilderberg elite obviously) to roll out the next phase which is the complete damning of America in the eyes of the world and subsequent absorption into the global government after a chastising in the fires of WWIII. All of this is staged, set up and engineered for public consumption. All of it is designed to bring America down to its knees because only by destroying America can the New World Order be realized. And after that, the whole world can kiss their freedoms goodbye and accept their total enslavement.

America is bank rolling its self for the occupation in the middle east, national debt is astronomical, taxes and inflation rise periodically, another great depression is just round the corner. the world now views America as the enemy, the aggressor, the bully. IF a pre-empted attack befalls another "noncompliant" country at the hands of the united states, i for one will be very concerned indeed... thats where im at.


keep pushing

Click to expand...

I think you should go to school for history and sociology or even economics so that you can better understand the dynamics of social change from a historical context. Perhaps take some sociology courses particularly those dealing with globalization. Examine some of the theories out there as to why conflict arises for instance. On the surface the reasons seem obvious and they should be obvious, but researching and discussing such subject matter would be probably interest you if you haven't all ready done so that is. Anything worth discussing takes critical thought and reasoning skills.

I don't expect you to come up with the whole story or even come up with a complete theory as to how the buildings collapsed unless you can somehow test any hypothesis you might have. I doubt you or anyone here can so again I am not asking that of you or anyone. I expect there to be some discussion over what occurred/supposedly occurred rather than something like "oh brother, why bother because that is so absurd you can't possibly expect me to believe it." I'm not saying I have it right. I could be wrong about why I don't think explosives could have been used to bring down the towers for instance. I gave a rather crude example why I don't see how it would be within reason to believe such a notion. I didn't mention anything about you somehow actually digging up clues on your own or anyone else. Just provide the reasons that you believe it could be controlled demolition or what have you.

Discussions can challenge people and provide a microcosm of what it's like when you challenge yourself to go outside your comfort zone by viewing things differently.

I intended to engender a discussion with all of you about 9/11. What do you believe and why? No one should feel hurt or frustrated as such to just quit. I am capable of changing my mind if over time I find that what I've been told is verifable. I've obviously been dupped before in this very thread and with others I've spoken with and had an email correspondence about the very topic at hand.