stridge -

i've read most of what you post, and because it states in one of your links that i am wrong then i am wrong?

6.5 seconds... 0.5 slower than freefall in a vacuum(controlled implosion speed) you drop a stone at the same moment and it would have hit the ground at 6 seconds... don't link me to a page that tries its damdest to explain away my questions in print. show me a builing that has ever done that in a complete collapse... and it doesn't even have to be as a result of fire... show me one that pancakes without a shred of resistance.

wtc1 & wtc2 collapse in the morning, fire fighters doing their duty without a second thought, saving lives... do you think that so many firefighters would have hotfooted into the towers at the stratigic command of their superiors if they were aware that steel frame buildings collapse by virtue of fire... and surley they would have learnt a monumental, stark lesson when the towers collapsed and had to enter wtc7.

how many firefighters went into wtc7? not many me thinks, and certainly not to fight fires because of what they would have wittnessed hours before. plus the building was utterly empty, why would they fight it from within? risk value 10/10.

which makes the "pull it" firefighters, or any other "pull" remark extremly contensious. who were they refering to if nobody was inside the building... why did NIST, FEMA and the like, state that there was no active firefighting within wtc7? please answer this, its of utmost importance... the only official governmental investigation team(FEMA) are still unsure of what brought down wtc7... NIST ain't touching it full stop... and no other private entity that im cogent of has conducted an investigation... WHAT THE FUCK???

If Larry meant pull the firefighters good for Larry... im not hung up on "pull it" but i will use it as a gateway over and over to push my painstakingly simple questions that don't get answered.

repost: you discredited the explosive devices in the columns claim when 10inch(i think) reported the perfect "45% slices" witnessed in the aftermath... here is what implosionworld have got to say.

this is what i found on http://www.implosionworld.com/dyk3.html who for the record debunk any 9/11 implosion myths:

(note the buzz words here and reflect on a previous post)

Concrete columns are generally easier to destroy, and usually require a small amount of conventional dynamite packed into specially drilled holes. Steel beams, however, require a very high-velocity explosive to perform a 'cutting' action through the steel. A specialized explosive called RDX, made famous by NASA’s space program, is used to perform this task. This copper-encased explosive is physically attached to the beam, and upon detonation 'slices' at an incredible 27,000 feet per second. A small amount of conventional dynamite is also attached to the beam to 'kick' it out of place so the structure will fall uniformly, in a direction predesignated by the blaster.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/building-implosion.htm A-Z of building implosion... apply where needed.

you pretty much answered nothing from my last post so i'll assume its all covered in screw.


keep pushing
 
I just want to say a few things here then catch up with the thread.

I did not pay my bills and well uh had no internet/phone for a brief time here and then a snow storm or something disrupted service when I did pay so I only just finished the "Screw" vids the last two days.

stridge, thank you for pointing those videos out because I wanted to know answers to my questions and I feel both Screw Loose Change and Screw 9/11Mysteries which I looked for and found thanks in part to your pointing out the SLC video. I no longer believe in the controlled demolition theory. It does not make sense at all. The NIST report is still troubling to me and I am nearly finished reading it online as of today, however I can't give credence to the absurdity that stands as the basis for many arguments dismissing the official conclusions made about the Twin Towers' and WTC7's collapse.

I remain troubled by how such an event could just happen. I know airport security had never been our strong suit here in the States that was known and warned about for quite a while before 9/11. I'd like to see just how much could have been done to prevent the terrorist acts from occurring. The Clinton and (W) Bush administrations seem to have either shortened the leash on the FBI when it came to investigating any suspicious Saudi activity when it came to money exchanging hands(Clinton) or downright halted FBI investigations into such matters(W. Bush). There is likely an embarassment to be found if we were allowed to know about the specifics surrounding what was known prior to 9/11. Perhaps as we sit here today that next big blow is or has been planned and it will indeed be far worse.(nuclear) Have we done enough to actually ensure our safety from a terrorist attack involving nuclear material? The only thing that I am certain of is that I never want our country to ask what more could have been done to prevent a nuclear attack. Bombing Iran isn't going to help anyone. God, could we use another Eisenhower now.
 
Reber - It seemed more like you were ignoring some of the stuff I posted - such as the direct quotes from Chief Daniel Nigro (the guy Silverstein was on the phone with) about 'pulling' his people out of the area. Let's just clear this up:

"wtc1 & wtc2 collapse in the morning, fire fighters doing their duty without a second thought, saving lives... do you think that so many firefighters would have hotfooted into the towers at the stratigic command of their superiors if they were aware that steel frame buildings collapse by virtue of fire... and surley they would have learnt a monumental, stark lesson when the towers collapsed and had to enter wtc7."

Firefighters bravel went into those building as a first response because theye here HIT BY PLANES! Makes them a bit of a priority, and the towers are some the tallest freestanding structures in the world. They knew there were potentially thousands of people trapped up there as the situation was immediately dire. Having steel frames in the buildings had nothing to do with the fire deparment going in there - I'm not sure where your head is at with this, you usually make far more compelling arguments. They weren't worrying about steel-frames this or that day, but you can bet they were concerned with collapse.

WT7 was a different story - it burneed for far longer than the other towers, and there is a multiplicity of quotes from fire and emergency personel that shows that many of them suspected WT7 was going to collapse at one point. They described raging fires on six floors, structural damage, and a slumping and sagging appearance in the middle of the building as well as groaning noises from the super-structure straining. There was widespread suspicion on the ground that it was going to come down - that's why Fire Chief Daniel Nigro made the call and evacuated the area.

Firefighters were in the close vicinity (though likely not in the building) searching for fallen comrades that had disappeared in the rubble of the towers when Nigro called for a full evacuation of the entire area around WT7 - three hours before it came down. This is all heavily documented and backed up with eyewitness accounts, recordings, you name it. It is also explained in lots of the stuff I linked and the movie.

"how many firefighters went into wtc7? not many me thinks, and certainly not to fight fires because of what they would have wittnessed hours before. plus the building was utterly empty, why would they fight it from within? risk value 10/10"

Like I said, read the reports. They were in the immediate vicinity looking for people and observing the building, controlling the situation, but mostly searching for other downed firefighters. They had no ability to fight fires in WT7 whatsoever because of the broken water main that has been previously discussed on this thread - that's well known. They were doing many other thngs on 9/11 besides trying to knock out fires, it wouldn't have even been possible with the size of the fire in WT7 and the number of men and resources available.

"which makes the "pull it" firefighters, or any other "pull" remark extremly contensious. who were they refering to if nobody was inside the building... why did NIST, FEMA and the like, state that there was no active firefighting within wtc7? please answer this, its of utmost importance"

Happy to, although I believe I already have. They meant "pull" the fire team presence in the area. The call from Chief Nigro to Silverstein was a courtesy call to basically let him know that nothing could or would be done about WT7 because of the collapse danger that so many were seeing develop. This is all explained in detail in the movie and the link, and numerous websites have recording and transcripts of many firefighters using the term "pull" in referring to themselves and other firefighters moving out of an area.

I looked at your stuff on explosives, but I'm not sure what you're getting at with it? How does that help prove a controlled demolition took place? I'm just not quite sure what you're showing me there. One thing you might be interested to look up on that website is that all controlled demolitions are a rapid and similar process, where uniformed charges rapidly shred the foundations and supports of a building from the bottom up, allowing for an obvious top-down freefall pattern. The trade centers don't follow this in the least and no uniformed explosions are visible, nor do the events begin at the bottom of the building as any controlled explosive demolition would, but I digress. Watch the video to see some more clear visual evidence.

"you pretty much answered nothing from my last post so i'll assume its all covered in screw."

I choose to avoid a few points, but I'd really like you to have a look at that link or at least the video first. I'm answering the same questions over and over again (how many times have we been over Silverstein?), but nothing I say makes the case as strongly as the compiled sources. It really doesn't take long to get through Richard's compilation/paper thing about 9/11, and screw loose change is fairly long, but that's because it's thorough.

In any case, let me know what questions (hopefully new questions) I haven't addressed and I promise I'll respond. In any case, that's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black as I could probably go back through this thread and find dozens of direct questions that I have never recieved an answer to from anybody, but not a big deal, I'm not here to keep score.
 
iwant8inches -

Thanks for watching with an open mind, I think you may be among the only people who have resonded to this thread that can stomach looking at something coming from the other side of things.

In regards to your ongoing concerns about the government, some of what you discuss does hold potential, but I've never argued against the administratively ineffective and generally bumblefucked nature of the government. I think there were many oversights, poor decisions, and as you mention certain interferences that helped facilitate 9/11, but I don't believe that members of the goernment got together and actually planned out a scenario make or help this thing happen. There may be a degree of corruption and facts people don't want coming out (even poor little Sandy Berger was caught jamming documents into his shoes at one point and he served under Clinton) because they reveal incompitence, embarassing neglagence, or actions that demonstrate their apathy and lack of interest helped make 9/11 possible.

But I think it's a big leap to go from that to intentional efforts on the part of very high ranking people to intentionally murder potentially uge numbers of their fellow citizens. That's cold-blooded mass murder, and no matter what you may think of these people, that's something that very few are capable of, and even fewer capable of keeping secret. To me that's a more functional argument against the conspiracy than all this physics and logisitic stuff that conspiracists have become obsessed with.
 
Great Article From Rolling Stone

***********************************************

THE LOW POST: I, Left Gatekeeper
Why the "9/11 Truth" movement makes the "Left Behind" sci-fi series read like Shakespeare

MATT TAIBBI


A few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge of fuck-you mail that I actually got. Apparently every third person in the United States thinks George Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks.

"You're just another MSM-whore left gatekeeper paid off by corporate America," said one writer. "What you do isn't journalism at all, you dick," said another. "You're the one who's clinically insane," barked a third, before educating me on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.

I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. In fact, if there were any conspiracy here, I'd be far more inclined to believe that this whole movement was cooked up by Karl Rove as a kind of mass cyber-provocation, along the lines of Gordon Liddy hiring hippie peace protesters to piss in the lobbies of hotels where campaign reporters were staying.

Secondly, it's bad enough that people in this country think Tim LaHaye is a prophet and Sean Hannity is an objective newsman. But if large numbers of people in this country can swallow 9/11 conspiracy theory without puking, all hope is lost. Our best hope is that the Japanese take pity on us and allow us to serve as industrial slaves in their future empire, farming sushi rice and assembling robot toys.

I don't have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I'll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn't offer an affirmative theory of the crime.

Forget for a minute all those Internet tales about inexplicable skyscraper fires, strange holes in the ground at Shanksville and mysterious flight manifestoes. What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement?

Strikingly, there is no obvious answer to that question, since for all the many articles about "Able Danger" and the witnesses who heard explosions at Ground Zero, there is not -- at least not that I could find -- a single document anywhere that lays out a single, concrete theory of what happened, who ordered what and when they ordered it, and why. There obviously is such a theory, but it has to be pieced together by implication, by paying attention to the various assertions of 9/11 lore (the towers were mined, the Pentagon was really hit by a cruise missile, etc.) and then assembling them later on into one single story. But the funny thing is, when you put together all of those disparate theories, you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.

The specifics vary, but the basic gist of what They Say Happened goes something like this:

A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for the New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to Al Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote-control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with Al Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!

Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dick, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the hell does that accomplish? If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all -- only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won't see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the "conspiracy" they're describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie -- unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.

We are to imagine that not one of Bush's zillions of murderous confederates would slip and leave real incriminating evidence anywhere along the way, forcing us to deduce this massive crime via things like the shaking of a documentary filmmaker's tripod before the Towers' collapse (aha, see that shaking -- it must have been a bomb planted by the president and his ten thousand allies!). Richard Nixon was a hundred times smarter than Bush, and he couldn't prevent leaks and cries of anguished pseudo-conscience from sprouting among a dozen intimately involved conspirators -- but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd.

I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum, on the order of the "sonar evidence" proving the existence of the Loch Ness monster. If you can't put all of these alleged scientific impossibilities together into a story that makes sense, then all you're doing is jerking off -- and it's not like no one's ever done that on the Internet before.

Whenever anyone chooses to dismiss 9/11 conspiracy theorists, accusations fly; the Internet screams that you've aided and abetted George Bush. I disagree. To me, the 9/11 Truth movement is, itself, a classic example of the pathology of George Bush's America. Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers. There are as many Thomas Paines in the 9/11 Truth movement as there are Isaac Newtons among the Intelligent Design crowd.

There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of sili tribal bullshit that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us.
 
Didn't have time to watch the video, on the way out the door - but I did see that it was produced by our good friend Dylan Avery, and we've all seen what an astounding amount of integrity this guy has. For instance, when he proudly supported his friend Jason Burmas as he proclaimed "The Firefighters are paid off!" to a crowd at Ground Zero, on the anniversay of 9/11. Great guys.

Secondly, that's not surprising that the officer heard some explosions. In actuality, even firefighters who knew what was happening have described exploding noises. Specifically, compressed air exploding out of the building as the floors collapsed.

Also, how near could the officer have been? They evacuated the area and sealed off, if I understand the NYFD's account of the matter correctly. He really couldn't have been in any better vantage point than any of the hundreds, maybe thousands of other range witnesses to the collapse. If he had been too close, we wouldn't be speaking with him. And of course, bring a police office, he's an expert on structural fires and fully qualified to evaluate the damage to WT7. Never mind that there is a plethora of pictures that show massive amounts of smoke and firing streaming from multiple floors and serious damage to the building. I'll take the guy remembers from that day over photographic evidence.

Of course, it doesn't help that the guy is also suggesting his own custom angles to the conspiracy - namely that he believes the whole thing was being run from WT7, hence the need to detonate it (wait I thought it was all for the insurance payout?).

Listen man, theres tons of stuff like that on good old 'infowars.com,' I've looked at lots of it. The fact of the matter is, a police officer, who also reveals that he's a conspiracy theorist, having heard what he thought were some explosions is not exactly damning evidence that the US government conspired to blow up the buildings.

I think everything you've posted for me to look at his come from one website, and they've all been the same thing: people claiming to have witnessed something fishy/contradictory that day, and not incidentally people who also uniformly reveal that they're conspiracy believers.

This is about equal to be showing you a quote from a firefighter that says he saw a lot of structural damage and heavy fire (there are many of them, actually) who doesn't believe he heard any bombs going off, and also doesn't believe the buildings were brought down with demolition. Get my drift here? Show me something new . . . thought you were done with this by the way? Did you watch the movie? Read the Richards article? Just curious.
 
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slow down Iwant8inches.

screw loose change? hummmm

i didn't want to enter the twin towers collapse debate but i must.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

taken from
http://911scholars.org/

who's on board
http://911scholars.org/WhoAreWe.html

if you don't have time to read it watch the short 8min vid near the bottom.

don't cast aside what you see visually for what someone is telling you... seeing is believing.
the science here is simple... the offical story fails on all fronts.


keep pushing
 
Reber187 said:
slow down Iwant8inches.

screw loose change? hummmm

i didn't want to enter the twin towers collapse debate but i must.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

taken from
http://911scholars.org/

who's on board
http://911scholars.org/WhoAreWe.html

if you don't have time to read it watch the short 8min vid near the bottom.

don't cast aside what you see visually for what someone is telling you... seeing is believing.
the science here is simple... the offical story fails on all fronts.


keep pushing

I've seen all the info that you are posting here. I need proof now. Plus, what good is accomplished by making unfounded assertions that serve as flimsy alternative explanations for the Towers' collapse. I have slowed down and I have a better perspective as far as what "both" sides of the argument have to say about the matter. I'll post later in the week about a few thoughts of mine.
 
Reber187 said:
BANG BANG BANG! multiple fuck ups here in under 5 minutes...

NIST Engineer, John Gross, Denies Reports About Molten Steel at the WTC | 911Blogger.com

and these are the guys u rest your faith in?

you can only laugh.


keep pushing

I'm in the group that was there and helps film that stuff. We're a UT organization and we're about bringing the truth to the people. I recommend that anyone coming into Austin stop by Brave New Books on Guadalupe street (the drag) and check out all the amazing info they have there.

I want to find a link that has Alex's speech here at UT last month. That was so badass.
 
for all those who it may concern... thats everybody.

i only just read this(disregard 'conspiracy', its the site name, not the topic): The Federal Reserve: An Astounding Exposure 1934, Congressman McFadden's Speech

and thought it apt to attach the following video:
Fiat Empire - A Closer Look at the Federal Reserve - Google Video

if you want anymore evidence that your country will fuck you every which way it can and wants, i urge you to read and view the above respectively, and then do your own research.

WHY DO Penis EnlargementOPLE FIGHT THE FACT THAT THE SUPenis EnlargementR-BANKERS CONTROL EVERYTHING... HISTORY ONLY KNOWS TRUTH.

10inch - if you aint watched it, do so.


keep pushing
 
Look, if you believe in a conspiracy you must have some sort of proof. Where is the evidence suggesting your conspiracy? I think it makes little sense to try to guess what "really happened," when the best course to take would be to build a case that exposes the holes in the official story and NIST report. There are legitimate qualms with how the investigation into 9/11 was conducted as well as with the conclusions made in the NIST report namely those about the collapse intitation/the steel temperatures and the data from their own physical tests. The NIST couldn't find any steel hotter than 1112F and 98% of their steel samples were under 500F.

9/11 Commissioner, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence - "that panel members so distrusted testimony from Pentagon
officials that they referred their concerns to the Pentagon's inspector
general...We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were
getting"


Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Permanent Select Committee
on Intelligence, Homeland Security Advisory Council ~ "we got started late; we had a very short time frame...we did not have enough money...We had a lot of people strongly opposed to what we did. We had a lot of trouble getting access to documents and to people. ... So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail"

But molten steel? Where was it proven that molten steel was present? Could it have been some other metal? I'm willing to believe it if there is proof. Perhaps it was a mixture of aluminum/wood/combustible material.

Explosives bringing the buildings down? Where are the seismographs that detected the secondary waves? The steel core and some of the outer steel structures were anchored into the ground. S waves would have been picked up if actual explosives were used to bring down the NYC buildings. At this point I haven't seen a sound argument made by someone claiming a controlled demolition caused the collapses. There was a footprint left by the two buildings six times larger than there would have been if a controlled demolition had occurred. When would there have been enough time to rig the buildings? Tons of explosive material would have had to be used. Plus, by everyone's account the towers collapsed top-down and the buildings certainly damaged other buildings around them. Also, no one has an actual official collapse time or do they? I am under the impression that no one has an actual time. I have seen estimates around 15-16 seconds depending on which of the WTC (1 & 2) are being referenced.

The use of thermate is something that is more believable than explosives, but the time and amount of materials required to destroy the buildings makes that idea suspect. I would like to see this explored a bit more if possible.

Build a substantiated argument. Finding the "whole" truth in this case will require a more thorough and open investigation and you won't get anywhere but further from the truth espousing different theories some of which contradict the others. Energy beams and no plane theories are just craziness and probably are just pushed by whores looking for a buck.

And I think quite a few of us have seen those videos and the video America- Freedom to Fascism all ready, but what exactly does that have to do with 9/11? Loose Change bringing up Operation Northwoods(which did actually involve a few scenarios where real casulties, Cuban and U.S. people alike would take place) at least was just showing that as far as we know the government at one time had such a plan on the table. It's a good thing McNamara didn't approve. Still, you must prove culpability and even then you must first bring forth evidence. I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.
 
iwant8inches said:
Look, if you believe in a conspiracy you must have some sort of proof. Where is the evidence suggesting your conspiracy? I think it makes little sense to try to guess what "really happened," when the best course to take would be to build a case that exposes the holes in the official story and NIST report. There are legitimate qualms with how the investigation into 9/11 was conducted as well as with the conclusions made in the NIST report namely those about the collapse intitation/the steel temperatures and the data from their own physical tests. The NIST couldn't find any steel hotter than 1112F and 98% of their steel samples were under 500F.

9/11 Commissioner, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence - "that panel members so distrusted testimony from Pentagon
officials that they referred their concerns to the Pentagon's inspector
general...We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were
getting"


Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Permanent Select Committee
on Intelligence, Homeland Security Advisory Council ~ "we got started late; we had a very short time frame...we did not have enough money...We had a lot of people strongly opposed to what we did. We had a lot of trouble getting access to documents and to people. ... So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail"

But molten steel? Where was it proven that molten steel was present? Could it have been some other metal? I'm willing to believe it if there is proof. Perhaps it was a mixture of aluminum/wood/combustible material.

Explosives bringing the buildings down? Where are the seismographs that detected the secondary waves? The steel core and some of the outer steel structures were anchored into the ground. S waves would have been picked up if actual explosives were used to bring down the NYC buildings. At this point I haven't seen a sound argument made by someone claiming a controlled demolition caused the collapses. There was a footprint left by the two buildings six times larger than there would have been if a controlled demolition had occurred. When would there have been enough time to rig the buildings? Tons of explosive material would have had to be used. Plus, by everyone's account the towers collapsed top-down and the buildings certainly damaged other buildings around them. Also, no one has an actual official collapse time or do they? I am under the impression that no one has an actual time. I have seen estimates around 15-16 seconds depending on which of the WTC (1 & 2) are being referenced.

The use of thermate is something that is more believable than explosives, but the time and amount of materials required to destroy the buildings makes that idea suspect. I would like to see this explored a bit more if possible.

Build a substantiated argument. Finding the "whole" truth in this case will require a more thorough and open investigation and you won't get anywhere but further from the truth espousing different theories some of which contradict the others. Energy beams and no plane theories are just craziness and probably are just pushed by whores looking for a buck.

And I think quite a few of us have seen those videos and the video America- Freedom to Fascism all ready, but what exactly does that have to do with 9/11? Loose Change bringing up Operation Northwoods(which did actually involve a few scenarios where real casulties, Cuban and U.S. people alike would take place) at least was just showing that as far as we know the government at one time had such a plan on the table. It's a good thing McNamara didn't approve. Still, you must prove culpability and even then you must first bring forth evidence. I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.

you have shifted your opinion and thats your decision based on the evidence you've been exposed to.

i ask you this, have you read the NIST report?

if you have read it, im sure you'll agree that it does NOT explain, prove, evident, how the buildings collapsed... it hypothizes. if thats fact for you and who ever else wishes to deem it so then good for you... i ain't for me.

"I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.

your faith in government and the elite is beyond me.

if ten men are stood in a line, and you're told the one 3rd from left has served time for multiple rape convictions, and then your informed a women was raped in the some village as this man lives last night and he was in that very village; who do you think it is morethanlikely commited that rape?

history only knows truth. the administration need to prove their innocents... they have not and cannot.

where will your allegiance lie when Iran, Lybia, or Venezula feels the brunt of America's template of power extension? i guess we'll just wait and see.

and don't ask for the "proof" of this or the "proof" of that. we both know the solid eveidence that would expose the inside job was removed from the site... which began on september 11th.
is it not a federal offence to tamper with a crime scene? FUCK NO, not for 9/11, coz the rules were suspended for 9/11... fuck it, we'll even suspend the rules of gravity, why not... how about we break all the rules and then tell 'em what to think.

how can you swallow this shit? how can you swallow "offical" reports, studies, etc that lie and distort fact? NIST wrote that there were no central columns in the trade centres core... WTF!!! no columns, just hollow shafts. this is incredible.

then we see images of central columns in the base of the core that have been perfectly sliced at a 45% angle, precisely what the function of a cutter charge is, to make the column walk.

"pancake theory"... bends the rules of physics until it snaps. this is clearly not what could have happened.

"molten steel", if it wasn't, then what was it that was lingering at ground zero for weeks on end, emenating tremendous heat all this time after. i'd like to here your answer, coz either way it must be fucking hot. we've all seen it dripping, we've all seen its yelow/orange resplendant hue.

and as for the collapse time, was it a minute plus? no. end of. science proves that the collapse was not pancaking by dint of fire and plane damage. a load berring, steel framed building would have gone down fighting if this was the case. but she fell like a bitch on smack.

the list goes on, yet no plausable explaination has been served up by scientific fact. the conspiracy therorists ARE the people that revert to science and work with whats at their despense. conveniently the physical evidence is few and far between.


keep pushing
 
Damn, Reber, the guy did start this thread afterall. If you look back at his posts, he does say that he has been reading the NIST report.

"if ten men are stood in a line, and you're told the one 3rd from left has served time for multiple rape convictions, and then your informed a women was raped in the some village as this man lives last night and he was in that very village; who do you think it is morethanlikely commited that rape?"

Comparing 9/11 and rape isn't really a valid comparison and grossly oversimplifies the issue.

"history only knows truth. the administration need to prove their innocents... they have not and cannot."

In a democracy we're innocent until proven guilty - the burden of proof is on the accusors, thank god. The fact that you appraoch this in exactly the opposite way suggests that you're not viewing anything subjectively.

"where will your allegiance lie when Iran, Lybia, or Venezula feels the brunt of America's template of power extension? i guess we'll just wait and see."

Lybia? What are you talking about here? At any rate, you'll be waiting a long time because there's won't be any armed conflcts with the countries you name. The US gets a huge a chunk of its oil from Venezuela, we'd be screwed if we stopped their production for even a few weeks.

"and don't ask for the "proof" of this or the "proof" of that. we both know the solid eveidence that would expose the inside job was removed from the site... which began on september 11th."

Huh? We can't ask for proof now? It's very convenient for the conspiracy to blow off their total inability to offer any solid evidence by saying that the government took it all away. Once again, you're having it both ways here. Apparently the job was so incompitently performed that 13 year olds on the internet can see through the government's schemes, but in the same stroke the expertly covered up and removed all the physical evidence. Hmmm, so they're idiots and extremely efficient at the same time?

"the list goes on, yet no plausable explaination has been served up by scientific fact. the conspiracy therorists ARE the people that revert to science and work with whats at their despense. conveniently the physical evidence is few and far between."

I disagree, as you yourself have admitted conspiracies need read into coincidence to establish themselves. In the case of 9/11 the conspiracists infnore scientific facts and credible information and base their ideas around pure conjecture and often false information. It says a lot that not credible engineer or building collapse expert has come out and supported the controlled demolition theory. Conspiracy theorists ignore this as if it doesn't matter - but it does, a lot. Most people realize that, but they're not as emotionally invested in conspiracy ideas as the 9/11 'truthers.'

Your post brings up some of the requent conspiracy claims about the mechanics of the collapse, but you didn't address the things that iwant8inches brought up either.

Anyway, my original point was, the guy has expanded his ideas about what happened and is asking different types of questions. He doesn't see the evidence for cotnrolled demolition as being in any way solid or supported, but he does still see the possiblity that we don't everything about what happened that day. Why suggest he's buying into government propganda or missing the boat just because he interprets the facts differently from you?

Here's something funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kALg2VptE-g

Dennis Kucinich hanging out with a 9/11 conspiracist kid. Kucinich's comments, however, are on point. We need to look at the facts and be objective. There's a big difference between thoroughly investigating the matter and trying to build the case for a conspiracy - some people can't seem to make the distinction.
 
"Build a substantiated argument. Finding the "whole" truth in this case will require a more thorough and open investigation and you won't get anywhere but further from the truth espousing different theories some of which contradict the others."

This comment is dead on.

Following that line of thinking, would anybody care to offer a comprensive and complete timeline and description of this conspiracy and how it went down. It would necessarily include the planning of the attack by the government, the warnings to investors and elites and such, Larry Silverstein, the planting of the explosives, the use of missiles at the Pentagon and the msising plane, where the passengers from the planes really are, their phone calls, how the charges brought the buildings down and why this didn't happen like a normal demolition, and how the cover-up afterwards worked.

I'd just like to get a complete view of what some of the conspiracy believers think happened with 9/11. I feel that the rolling stone article makes some pretty solid points inbetween the humor, namely that conspiracists often can't offer a complete story for their ideas.
 
I wonder why the government doesn't sponsor a truly independant study and debate on 9/11. The only politician that I am aware of calling for an independant investigation is Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a man who knows the evils of government and why the founders created the Constitution.

It's hard to come out against the 9/11 Government Conspiracy Theory if you are a big-name person, because the media/everyone else immediately thinks "this guy is kookoo." When I bring up the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job, many people will just utterly refuse anything of the sort and label anyone who thinks so a "conspiracy theorist."

Oh, I LOVE SHEEP. Our media controls how we think, so sad. I hope in 30 years all those fools who don't see the danger of our governments won't be saying, "Wow, now that we're living in a total police state, I guess those guys back in the early 2000s WERE right after all."

Oh, and the Engineering graduates here still don't want to debate 9/11 with the "crazy truthers." Alex Jones and friends have exposed so much and debunked so many people/ideas that they know they'll lose. We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive. I say if you're not outraged at the government/corporate corruption going on, then you might want to reconsider your status as an "American."

This doesn't necessarily pertain to 9/11.
 
I hope you guys on the "other" side didn't get confused what I was posting about. You guys are not sheep, but a lot of people are in this world.

I wonder if you have seen the BBC 9/11 Documentary that just came out. I suggest you read this link from GlobalResearch about it, and how the media pressures people into dropping the 9/11 preplanned theory and makes "us" looks like nuts:

“9-11 The Conspiracy Files,” The BBC Joins the Ranks of the Untrustworthy United States Media

I love how the Popular Mechanics liers say they "saw a picture of WTC7 and how it was 'scooped out'." I guess we ARE second class citizens. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LUDACROUS. This is the stuff Reber and I talk about. How some "respected magazine" can get away with such bullshit.

Stridge, it seems that you are of the opinion that "until <whoever in government was involved> admits it, they are innocent." The facts are out there, they should already be tried for treason. THEY ARE GUILTY! I think personally you give too much credince to the rogue operations that parts of our governments are involved in. Although, I don't blame you, it took me years to finally come to the fact of what has/and is happening.
 
"I wonder why the government doesn't sponsor a truly independant study and debate on 9/11"

If the government sponsors it, how isn't somewhat under their control? Sometimes I don't think you guys would be happy unless the government gave your guru Alex Jones a check for millions of dollars and told him to have at it.

And, if it was investigated again, it would obviously include more private sector engineers (as was the case the first time), who have shown that they unanimously disagree with controlled demolition theories, so I imagine this exercise would be rather disappointing.

Most anything a person needs to know about 9/11 in order to investigate is publicly available now, and more information is being released once it has finished up in investigation all the time. The problem with the government sponsoring such things is that the money needs to come from somewhere, and beleive it or not a lot of people don't like the idea of spending a ton of cash to do the exact same thing twice in a row.

Rest assured, there are enough questions out there and enough standing interest in this that people will keep looking into it. After five years the conspiracists have failed to produce and real evidence of their claims, so things are looking a little grim for that standpoint, but all the same people are free to keep looking into the matter.

"It's hard to come out against the 9/11 Government Conspiracy Theory if you are a big-name person, because the media/everyone else immediately thinks "this guy is kookoo." When I bring up the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job, many people will just utterly refuse anything of the sort and label anyone who thinks so a "conspiracy theorist."

True about media personalities, but you're making an assumption that many of them (besides Charlie Sheen of course) feel there was a conspiracy but aren't saying so. We really don't know that.

The fact is, if you believe 9/11 was an inside job - then you believe in a conspiracy theory. The government plotting to murder thousands of its own citizens in an evil and hyper-elaborate scheme to strip us of all of our civl liberties (for no apparent reason) is most definately a conspiracy theory. People have every right to suggest you're a consiracy guy if you suggest that, and to most it sounds faily unreasonable, hence their negative reactions.

This doesn't mean they're dumb or close-minded, it simply means they take things differently than you and hold different burdens of proof. I know half the fun of being a conspiracist is feeling that everybody who doesn't believe in the conspiracy is just a moronic slave to the lies they're being fed, but trust, plenty of very smart people have looked at this stuff and reject it wholesale.

"Oh, I LOVE SHEEP. Our media controls how we think, so sad."

Sigh. See what I mean. And the media, get over this, please. The media controls your opinions if you let it - but surely you must realize that a good chunk of the media is just straight reporting. If the media says that it's snowing in Buffalo, then by god it probably is. If the media says that Bush is giving a press conference, then by god, I'll bet he is. If the media says a kid fell down a well somewhere, then dollars to donuts there's a kid in a well somewhere.

It's really simple for you guys to just say the media is evil and corrupt and controls everybody's minds because most of it is owned by big scary corporations. Please explain to me exactly how this works. In my opinion this is a really over-simplified and half-baked means of explanation. Demonizing the press at large (except for our beloved prisonplanet.com, which I wouldn't even qualify as actual journalism) is a pretty poor intellectualization of the problems that do exist within mainstream reportage and editorship.

"Wow, now that we're living in a total police state, I guess those guys back in the early 2000s WERE right after all."

Once again, you show you have no faith in everybody else in the country (I often felt the same in college, it's a fairly natural state of mind to possess when you're not old enough to even buy beer). You assume that the whole country is ready to roll over and abandon freedom at the first threat. Hey, you live in Texas, see all those fellas driving around in trucks with gun racks and confederate plates? I'll bet you green money they don't believe George Bush's government helped blow up the towers, but I'll also bet you that those guys aren't exactly thrilled about the idea of giving up all their civil liberties either. Ask one sometime.

Seriously, this whole 'police state' garbage line is part of the Alex Jones science fiction angle that makes the conspiracy stuff so interesting. Some horrible Orwellian scenario is fun to read about on the internet, but it seriously undererstimates the nature of the country and the integrity of its citizens. People aren't dumb and they aren't willing to fork over all of their freedoms, in fact most care about them deeply.

"Oh, and the Engineering graduates here still don't want to debate 9/11 with the "crazy truthers." Alex Jones and friends have exposed so much and debunked so many people/ideas that they know they'll lose."

Really? Have you asked any of them personally and had this response, as in "No sir! I will not debate Alex Jones, he's far to smart and capable and surely a disc jockey from Austin knows far more about engineering than I do, I'm terrified to debate the guy!" Not likely I'm guessing.

As I said before, has it ever occured to you that they just don't care, or that they'd rather not spend their free time getting jeered at by a room full of conspiracy fans? Honestly, for the average engineering kid (not usually the most out-going types), getting yelled at by a room full of rabidly devoted Alex Jones fans as they try to explain some dry building principles probably doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Try offering a handsome cash reward and promise to do everything you can to attract a mixed crowd if you want to draw some itnerest, but please don't assume you're rate based on somebody's unwillingness to do something very unpleasant for no good reason. Remember, most people don't care about this conspiracy stuff in the first place.

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

Oh good god man, this bothers me a little. Could you be any more full of yourself on this? This is one of the main attractions of the conspiracy world - you get to imagine that you're some rightous crusader against tyranny.

Seriously, what you are doing is not public service. What you're doing is a hobby. You want to contribute to liberty and help people? Turn town a lucrative job out of college like I did and go slave away at the ACLU defending civil liberties, go sign up for the peace corps and actually help some people, start training for Teach For America and help disadvantaged kids to compete with the privelaged classes, join the army, join a civil rights advocacy or a multi-cultural group. There are literally hundreds, maybe thousands of options for college students to positively get involved and help their fellow citizens and strengthen the country. Hell, even Greenpeace has an actually legit anti-corporate policy (all their stuff is based on bad things corporations actually do, not what conspiracists imagine they do, so you might not like it).

A couple of undergrads sitting around in somebody's dorm room and watching Alex Jones videos on a laptop and discussing conspiracy ideas is not crusading for liberty. C'mon man, don't try to portray your interests as being somehow more important or worthy than anybody elses. Without any solid evidence of this conspiracy and without any postitive public contribution and service, you guys might as well call playing Dungeons and Dragons fighting a great fight as well. Come to think of it, the two are pretty similar. D&D and 9/11 conspiracies are worlds of fantasy in which young males heavily immerse themselves. At least the D&D kids know it's not real, at least I think they do . . .
 
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