For Swank: Scholarly and Peer Reviewed research!

swank, it is only your "OPINION" that my information is bad and unsupported. Where I have actually posted a great deal of supporting material, the only study you posted did, in fact, indirectly support my claims, which I find highly amusing.

I see that you take offense at my labeling of the frenulum as the "male clitoris" and you keep going back to this point. Do you take offense because you find this feminizing? I don't really understand your balking at this, because it is not an idea I originated. It is actually widely accepted as such in much medical literature. As my frenelum was mostly excavated during my neonatal circumcision, I do not know this for a fact. I am merely repeating it from everything that I have read. I have had some small success in causing my fren remnants to expand and regain some sensitivity, but I will never fully experience the pleasure of having a full and intact fren.

You argument that you are not pro-circ certainly falls flat. One, you are quite aggressive in your stance against FR. You cannot say that it is without merit and at the same time that you are not against it, when you are attacking it merely by saying it has no merit. Second, your argument that men who are perfectly happy with their cut cocks might be mentally disturbed by all my crazy talk is weak. If you are truly happy with your cock, FR discussion is not going to bother you.

I am not angry at you either. Your weak arguments just make me look better and better, buddy! Also, if my crudeness offends thee, take thee away from the Foreskin Restoration forum!

Finally, this IS the "We hate circumcision and it ruins your penis" forum. You're looking for the "General Discussion" forum...oh, and don't let the door hit you in the ass! :D

You like the term "ad hominem", don't you? You pulled that one out on our last debate!

:D

The term is used frequently in any debate as it is very common tactic for distracting from the real point, and you Kong, are a proven master of it. I use it because it applies, and I am fond of it as it takes me back to debate class in seventh grade where we learned it . . .

That being said, I am not interested in your constant assertions that my argument is weak or that I am somehow 'losing' the debate. My goal is to make my point heard, the people following the threads (if there are any) will come to their own conclusions. If it makes you feel good to repeatedly inform me that you are stomping me, than go right ahead. This, unfortunately, does not actually support your claims about circumcisons and FR, but only supports your claim that you have suppressed my point of view. Bravo.

I am not pro-circ in any respect. I just believe it is far more benign, sexually and medically, than it is made out to be by the anti-circ movement (where 99% of all you information and literature regarding the matter comes from). I could not even say whether I would have my own children undrgo the procedure, as I don't believe there is any benefit from it, and it seems the trend is moving away from most boys getting it. I would certainly insist on painblockers and discuss the issue at length with my doctor.

I have already explained my opinion on FR: I don't think that all the benefits associated with it in your posting are real. This is derived from my own knowledge and reserach of human anatomy, as well testimony from men online. This includes German Stallion, who experienced abosolutely none of the benefits you always mention, despite a fully restored foreskin. You always brush his testimony off, but it is direct experience from a restored man that directly contradicts your claims.

So, like I said, it is up to individuals to decide whether my arguments are weak, though if you feel they shouldn't have a choice in the matter continue to tell them that I am a moron and you've dominated me.

This from a man who complained about the expense of mailing me documents, journals, and reserach papers he doesn't own and has never actually seen. I am proud to say I don't make things up in the name of protecting my arguments, which people ought to consider when they read through these posts.

Cool! I mastered it and I didn't even know what it meant! Should have paid more attention in debate class. j/k

About me suppressing your arguments... that's laughable. Your only argument is that I'm wrong. That's it. To make yourself look even more hypocritical, you try to come across as the victim here...trying to appear as if I came after you, when it was you, in fact, who started this ruckus, by coming into the FR forum and dogging FR! Fuckin' duhhhh....!

I have avoided discussing German Stallion with you mainly because I like and respect him. He has sent me several PMs and helped me along with advice on FR. I do not want to say anything negative about his restoration, but if you insist this point be addressed, here is my honest opinion on German Stallion's restoration.

GS is a great guy who has restored his foreskin over the course of his Penis Enlargement career. However, he is not a typical restorer. Where we "official" restorers use constantly applied low level tension to stimulate skin expansion, GS's restoration occured mostly as a side effect of using a vacuum pump and manual pulling type Penis Enlargement exercises. This has caused him to "stretch" the skin more than expand it. Hence, he did not get some of the benefits of true skin expansion. His methods actually caused the nerves to be more widely distributed. Skin expansion causes new nerve endings to be generated as well as increased circulation. Vacuum pumping is widely known to cause loss of sensitivity in the penis and it also makes the tissue fill with fluid, which can also be damaging. This stretching may also explain why his fauxskin is sometimes loose and floppy. Although I appreciate his advice, I am very careful to NOT stretch my skin too much or lose sensitivity through rough handling. Constant Applied Low-Level Tension is what gives restorers the benefits I proclaim, not rough skin stretching or extreme amounts of suction force.

I'm sorry, GS, but that is why I figure you do not notice so much of a difference being restored.

Finally, swank, the crack about mailing you documents was a joke. Why don't you try to grow a sense of humor to go along with your Penis Enlargement enhance giant schlong? From my experience, women would choose a good sense of humor over a big dick anyway.

Once again, limited on time, but I will address that soon enough.

On 'the joke:' hilarious joke Kong, where was the punchline? How was that in any way a joke? Was it a joke when you suggested I just find the articles myself?

How does any of this explain why you repeatedly refused to disclose your source? It wasn't a joke - you didn't want to post your source, plain and simple. As always, anybody reading this can see that.

wow...um...okay...when I said try google, I was implying that the material was online and easily accessible through a web search, which anyone would understand-- except you...when I asked if you wanted me to fedex them to you, it is because you said that you wanted to read the entire documents...I think anyone can appreciate my snide little joke...mainly tho the issue is that I posted the proof behind my opinions and beliefs and then you asked for more...we can all see that it was just to try to frustrate me, not a true search for evidence, because you will not change your mind and wont even entertain the possibility...you are a sad man...a feel sorry for you...you can't even let it drop...

I promise to stay up all night long and match you argument by argument, tho!

Why do I do this?

I was the victim of a crappy circ. I had a partially trapped penis with webbed scrotum and hairy shaft. My skin was cut unevenly, giving me a severe upwards curve. As I approached middle age, the keratinization of my glans caused me to lose most of my sensitivity, as my frenelum was nearly 100% removed. I was begining to have ED, but did not know what my problem was. I thought I was just getting old...losing it. I did not know about FR and stumbled upon it by accident. This information DOES NOT EXIST unless you know what you are looking for. It is not something you come across on CNN. I thought, "Well, I'll just give this a try. It makes sense. What have I got to lose?" Within a month or two, I was seeing results. My penis started getting bigger, fuller. My glans shed its callus covering and became more sensitive. I was getting quicker, harder and longer lasting erections due to improved sensation and increased circulation. Even masturbation was a joy! My curve began to straighten, my balls began to recede from the shaft as I created new skin. My sex life improved dramatically. I wanted to share this with everyone! I wanted to put this information out there for any men who are suffering the same things I was. I want it to be easy to come across this info. I don't want it to be a secret thing anymore. I want to help people! I HAVE helped men improve their sex lives. I HAVE prevented a few little boys from going under the knife for no reason save social aesthetics. I HAVE received PMs and e-mails from men thanking me for getting this info out there and presenting it in a passionate and entertaining manner. I won't stop until everyone knows that circumcision is mutilation, and that there is hope for those most damaged by it... that they can have a little back of what was taken from them!

What motivates you?

Hmm, well, I just don't understand why you refused to post a link to the page? You suggested it was too much work, then said I ought to do it myself, why not just say you got them as block quotes from a webpage? Why not just post that? That's what I don't understand. But I'll let it drop. You say it was a joke, it's a joke.

I have never doubted your personal benefits from FR, just the information you circulate and some of the statements you make about FR for all men and circumcision. I explained why I post on the matter in response to millionman in the other thread.

sigh...sad... I just can't justify having to type "not all circumcised men may benefit as strongly from foreskin restoration as I and thousands of others. The benefits described herein depend mainly on the amount of damage caused by the circumcision" before every post I make. To suggest as much is sophomoric whining, and presumes upon the ignorance of my readers, that they would not know that implied qualifier. Typical white collar snobbery. All us reg'lar folks ain't that dum!

Once again, you attack me personally and suggest I look down on people. For the record, folks, Kong knows nothing about me personally, nor what my origins and social class are, and only assumes he knows things about my finances or estimation of other people's intelligence is. He does know I went to college, which I guess automatically makes me think I know everything and people who didn't do the same are stupid. Is this correct Kong, since you have fashioned yourself as a bit of an expert on who I am?

Why not justify it as jsut your experience? Also, this debate was more or less started by me taking issue with your theory that circumcised men are psuedo-males or some such statement. Along with your claims that circumcision causes male aggression, this is basically just some theory you cooked up or read elsewhere and posted. I think it's totally bogus and said as much. And so we have another great debate.

Like I've said a million times, I'm entitled to show why I don't believe the hype and express my opinions as to why.

Wouldn't you say that trying to squash and silence all dissenting views to what you preach as the absolute truth is a little facist? You won't tolerate any naysayers to what you believe and want others to as well? I don't find some of the things you say regarding the matter to be accurate or grounded in fact, or in the case of the theories or some biological arguments to be just wrong to my knowledge, and so I post on them. Your defense and outrage at a contesting point of view is vigorous, and I applaud you for this since it just gives me a forum to show another side of the issue. Unfortunately it is very difficult to get you to actually discuss the issue rather than call me a dumbass most of the time . . .

...swank, i don't want to debate you anymore...you have done what you have set out to do, which is to hurt me personally...not in this thread but another one...what i want to know is why? You know how sensitive I am about that issue...and especially about my frenulum being totally removed...yet you had to use that to needle me...and it did hurt...alot...no one should have peices of their body cut off without their consent...i am only trying to help people...you are only trying to hurt me...whatever...

Kong, I stated from the very beginning that this is not personal and hurting your feelings has absolutely nothing to do with my postings.

While I am familiar with the fact that you sensitive to criticism and often become defensive when questioned, I have never seen this as a reason not to voice my opinion when I see questionable information being represented as cut and dry facts.

Once again, that clearly was not my intention, and anybody who has been reading this could can easily see that.

it's only questionable in your opinion, swank. can't you understand that?

Very much so; it is my opinion and judgement that it is questionable and in some cases entirely unsupported and false. I cite the examples, demonstrate why I believe this, and offer my point of view. I present this, then people who read the thread can come to their own conclusions as to who has made the superior case.

Yayyyy!

I am glad that swank admitted that my sources and facts are only bad in "his opinion"...I am passionate about FR and its benefits and do not want anyone to be dissuaded from investigating it because of a naysayer who has to have the last word...I'm tired and hopefully I can get some sleep...I hope he doesn't post anything else, because it really is useless to rehash this over and over...I'm the FR guy tho so I have to man the post...

Huh?

Oh okay, I think I understand here.

Wouldn't you agree that it is your opinion that your facts are good?

Isn't it anybody's opinion what is factual? What does this mean except restate a very basic point about the nature of belief?

The point is men can read over both of our 'opinons' and see which one htey agree with more.

I believe that most everyone here knows my opinions and understand my viewpoint, and while they do not necessarily agree, they do not keep me up all night, forcing me to defend myself and my beliefs out of some weird sense of one-upmanship. I have sworn to answer your every argument because I believe that FR is beneficial and that ending circumcision is a noble cause that needs to be promoted. I do not think my motives will be called into question.

I pump for my FR? So what are you saying that I'm not a restorer? Shit you sound like a crazy wierdo. You just can't take it that GS doesn't like his foreskin. The truth is that pumping is psobably the fastest way to do it. You won't admit it cause you like doing FR. I want it done as fast as possible, you love talking about it.

Hey Swank, after reading through other threads on similar topics I understand the arguement you are presenting. As I've been reading into this issue and actually discussed with my father I have found that for many men circumcision is not an issue. My father and I are both fine with our circumcisions, as we both have "loose" skin and are not too tight in this regard. For some men however this tightnes of the shaft skin can restrict penile function and can possible limit growth. I can not prove this, but it is a reasonable possibility. I have read further into the world of FR and it does appear to me that there is a very serious undertone associated to those who choose circumcision. I have yet to find information along these lines that I would consider credible sources, simply because in many instances it appears to be coming from the writer/owner of the web site simply to support their claims. This to me would be similar to the pharmaceutical companies with cure all pills for ED, weight loss, hair loss etc. As I have stated before I see both sides, and I am reconsidering my involvement with FR. Simply because I like my good friend cyclops am reconsidering Penis Enlargement all together. Personally I am absolutely content with who I am and the way my penis function is just great. I hope that for some this information helps, on both sides. There are some pros and cons on both sides. FR is a lot of work and tedium. Being circumsized may be culturally acceptable but does that make it anymore acceptable. Personally I would have liked to have been given a choice to be circumsized or not. Now my decision is to restore or not. I may simply enjoy the benifits of a partial restoration, as I have no shaft hairs when erect and I have skin that will glide back and forth when I get intimate with my wife when that day comes. Thanks Swank for bringing these things to light. Kong, as a man you are a great contributor as you have decided to leave I wish you and your wife the best. I hope that these arguements will cease now. FR is a good thing for some, but it is a choice. We have to remain balanced in regards to what we pursue for our own mental and physical health.