Note: This is NOT an instructional post on how to inject/ingest HGH
or IGF-1 for the purposes of enlarging your penis! This post is
merely an informational post that MAY show how such applications MAY
be used to treat penile "deficiencies" in the future (once more
research has been done to establish that there are no or minimal
side effects and that HGH/IGF-1 does actually enlarge the penis.)

There is a lot of excitement about Human Growth Hormone. It is
available by
injection only and is very expensive. It turns into IGF-1 after
injection
and the study below shows that it GROWS cells in the Penis EnlargementNIS. There
are plans
to release IFG-1 for injection ... could be a new method ...

Here is the ABSTRACT from 2001

Insulin-like growth factor-I promotes proliferation and migration of
cavernous smooth muscle cells.
Biochem Biophys Res Commun 2001 Feb 9;280(5):1307-15 (ISSN: 0006-
291X)
Liu X; Lin CS; Spencer EM; Lue TF
Knuppe Molecular Urology Laboratory, University of California, San
Francisco, California 94143-1695, USA.
To better understand the physiology of cavernous smooth muscle cells
(CSMC),
particularly their regulation by IGF-I, we isolated CSMC from rats
of
various ages and grew them as cell cultures. CSMC from very young (1
week of
age) and very old (28 months of age) rats secreted the least amounts
of
IGF-I, and those from 16-week-old rats the most. IGF-I stimulated
growth of
CSMC at an optimal concentration of 12.5 ng/ml. At this
concentration, CSMC
from 11-week-old rats showed the highest growth rate and CSMC from
28-month-old rats showed the lowest. The optimal IGF-I concentration
for
migration of CSMC was 10 ng/ml. At this concentration, CSMC from 4-
week-old
rats showed the highest migratory rate and CSMC from 28-month-old
rats
showed the lowest. IGF-I also stimulated VEGF secretion from CSMC at
an
optimal concentration of 10 ng/ml. At this concentration, CSMC from
16-week-old rats secreted VEGF the most and CSMC from 28-month-old
rats
secreted the least. The expression levels of IGF-IR paralleled the
IGF-I-regulated growth rates of these cells. Expression of IGF-IR
was
identified in the cavernous smooth muscle and the urethra epithelium
of the
penis.

Here is the LINK for the abstract:

http://www.kfinder.com/member-search/getdoc.cgi?
ord=12&searchid=8&have_local_holdings_file=0&local_journals_only=0

Take Care,

KMR

Good Health Begins at Home.
 
negative said:
IGF-1 may give you cancer !

IGF-1 is produced naturally.

It is one of the hormones in the body that makes you grow.
If it gives you cancer, then why doesn't IGF-1 give bodybuilders cancer, who are people who will have elevated levels of IGF-1?
 
negative said:
IGF-1 may give you cancer !
You obviously don't know what you're talking about... IGF does not give you cancer but it does cause hyperplasia so if you have cancer while taking it, IGF will provide an environment that will allow the cancer to flourish.
 
I have read a lot on IGF-1 and most of what I read said that 15mins of very intense exercise will raise natural IGF-1 levels for most of the day. Also I have read a few times that testosterone levels are elevated to maximum after only 30-45mins of intense exercise and that longer periods of exercise actually lower testosterone levels for up to 3 days. So I would say for maximum HGH,IGF-1, and testosterone release 30-45mins a day of running or weightlifting would be the best way to gain over all benefit of those hormones.
 
That may be true but the increased levels from intense exercize is nowhere near what exogenous application of IGF/test provides. The increases from exercise alone is a drop in the bucket compared to the levels that one can expect from injecting.
 
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Yes, but the suppliment L-Arginine will also raise it. The question is how much would L-arginine along with weight or isometric exercise (to increase testosterone) raise HGH? Excess Aerobic exercise lowers testosterone levels. L-arginine is not expensive and does not have adverse effects on the body. When I first started taking it (along with other herbs and suppliments) I could actually feel new sensations at the end of the urethra at the tip of the penis. These suppliments alone have helped to give me gains.
 
sikdogg said:
You obviously don't know what you're talking about... IGF does not give you cancer but it does cause hyperplasia so if you have cancer while taking it, IGF will provide an environment that will allow the cancer to flourish.



http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a109h.htm "They suggest that IGF-1 may increase both cell turnover and the susceptibility of cells to become cancerous"


http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a93h.htm "but high in IGF-1 levels had a 2.51 higher risk of colorectal cancer than did men with low IGF-1 levels"


http://www.ejnet.org/bgh/igf-1.html "The data revealed a significantly increased risk of prostate cancer in men with the highest levels of IGF-1"


Why take the chance ? You can make good gains without igf-1, with natural Penis Enlargement

I think its very strange Big Al post this article when saying on his page " How you can permanently add as much as 2 extra inches to your penis in just weeks." Why take hormons when you can gain 2 inch in weeks ? He he...


And this "Doctor" Dr. Reicher most be a great source *LOL*

Read below.





Androgel & Penis Enlargement (from Dr. Reicher)

Hey Al: Feel free to post my reply about my SUCCESS with Penis Enlargement and Androgel applied to the Penis EnlargementNIS. Remember www.tquiz.com will get you the RX you want from the doc! Good luck guyz, listen to BigAl, he is the CORE Guru. KR

>>>Big Al: Done :) Thanks!

>From: "Big Al"
>To: Dr. Reicher
>Subject: Re: ?Androgel + Penis Enlargement
>Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 01:29:54 -0700
>
>Hi,
>
>That's an interesting question. I've heard that oral or injected
>testosterone does nothing for penis size (in adults)... but I've never
>heard about the possible effects of a topically applied solution.
>
>I'm almost sure that there are ways of obtaining Androgel... if not
>directly from a physician, then probably off of the internet.
>
>If you decide to experiment with this, please let me know. I'd be very
>interested in hearing about your findings :)
>
>BA
>
>
>>From: "Ken Reicher"
>>To: Big Al
>>Subject: ?Androgel + Penis Enlargement
>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:47:51 -0700
>>
>>Hey Al,
>>VasoDerm may be "helpful" for Penis Enlargement, but can anybody confirm or shed some
>>light on some info. I just got at my gym about Androgel and its effects
to >>CAUSE Penis Enlargement.
>>I was in the shower, yeah it is a straight gym, and this middle aged man
>>waltzes in ... humming a really happy tune ... I glance at his crotch and
>>notice he is nicely hung. I asked him if he used any supplements to "help
>>him out with strength training" ... he grabbed his cock and asked me,
"you
>>mean skeletal or love muscle"?
>>Since he broke the ice, I asked if he did any form of Penis Enlargement. He said that
>>all he asked his doctor for was something to enhance LIBIDO. He was given
>>Androgel (RX only) and was intrigued by the instructions ... they
>>indicated to NOT put it on the penis. He asked the doctor why and he
>>casually remarked ... "maybe they are afraid of enlarging it". So he
>>"broke the rules" and started using it every other day on the penis and
>>every other day on the arms or abs ... within two months he had gained an
>>inch (both erect and limp).
>>Is this possible? Would a doctor prescribe this to a younger man? The
>>guy is really muscular so I suppose it helps both the penis and other
>>areas of manliness.
>>I've noticed [words=http://www.phallosan.com/shop/catalog/default.php?z=eNortjIxtVKyL0pNszWxMFcrSSxKTy2JL0hMT7U1UisoykyxtbBQSy4tLsnPjS8uKcrMS7dVsgZcMMpbEbo%2C]ads[/words] that sound like Testosterone Gel, but would prefer the
>>REAL thing. Just want to get some feedback before pumping my family doc
>>for some LIBIDO help!
>>KR
 
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The anabolic steroid Trenbolone acetate by itself increase hepatic IGF-1 levels by 150%. All androgens increase IGF-1 levels so the same argument can be said about any androgen. The only studies that show IGF-1 linked to cancer are ones that people had existing prostate and/or breast cancer and their was increased growth. In breast cancer its logical that there is increased IGF-1 since there is also an increase in estrogen. The only other explanation is that since IGF-1 can cause hyperplasia, you have an increased chance of new cells being cancerous. But that is really random chance just like mutations and the creation and death of new cells happens regardless. There is no direct connection.

Bottom line, don't take steroids or GH, or IGF-1 if you have cancer. You have bigger fish to fry.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_cover_dhea_02.htm
Stephen Cherniske: First of all, the widely cited association between IGF-1 and prostate cancer has been debunked.106,107 That said, the concern for tumor acceleration does make sense because IGF has angiogenic activity that would favor tumor growth. But IGF-1 has only been shown to accelerate tumor growth in test tubes. Test tubes and petri dishes do not have immune systems, which are upregulated by IGF-1. In fact, the preponderance of the evidence shows that IGF-1 does not promote cancer in any living organism, whether animal or human. Even direct injection of IGF-1 does not promote tumor growth in animals.108 In Europe, IGF-1 is routinely given to cancer patients to help them gain weight.

Aside from this, it is important to note that increases in IGF-1 after DHEA supplementation are significant but modest, and there are no published studies in which DHEA administration caused IGF-1 to rise above the normal range. Moreover, scores of published studies demonstrate the essential role that IGF-1 plays in the repair and regeneration of the brain, skeleton, and cardiovascular and immune systems.109-112 Conversely, low IGF-1 levels have been associated with dementia, atherosclerosis, osteoporosis, and sarcopenia,54,113 and a study in the journal Gerontology shows that men who maintain youthful levels of IGF-1 do not experience the decline in testosterone or muscle mass, or the accumulation of fat, that has been considered an inevitable consequence of aging.114
There are many cancers that feed off of IGF1. Colon cancer is one such cancer. Prostate cancer, at least according to studies, is another such cancer. The IGF1 doesn't cause the cancer, it just makes it grow faster.
 
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dragon said:
Yes, but the suppliment L-Arginine will also raise it. The question is how much would L-arginine along with weight or isometric exercise (to increase testosterone) raise HGH? ...
Where did you find that arginine raises test??? It does not from my understanding of the compound. Arginine is a vasodilator not a testosterone booster. What it does is raise nitrous oxide levels in the body. This helps to get more blood to the tissues resulting in more intense pumps when working out and should also help get firmer erections similar to how Viagra (another vasodilator) does.
 
sikdogg said:
Where did you find that arginine raises test??? It does not from my understanding of the compound. Arginine is a vasodilator not a testosterone booster. What it does is raise nitrous oxide levels in the body. This helps to get more blood to the tissues resulting in more intense pumps when working out and should also help get firmer erections similar to how Viagra (another vasodilator) does.

Larginine does not raise testosterone directly...it allows for more natural HGH to be produced in the body which in turn allows less DHT to be produced and this indirectly keeps testosterone at higher levels in the body...weight/resistance exercise increases testosterone (herbs like tribulus also increases testosterone)...I was talking about two separate things...
 
Arginine can but not very effective by itself. It is believed that it works better in combination with Lysine and Ornithine. Alone they do not increase GH levels from oral consumption. Ornithine does not induce GH release even intravensouly. The studies showing any GH release from individual aminos is from intravenous administration or in old men (effect not shown in young men).

The only combination that has been shown to work with oral doses in young men during basal conditions is arginine/lysine. Although certain combo's definitely have biological activity, Arginine has been shown to inhibit the reduction of GH due to increased IGF-1 levels. In terms of growth it would be mostly indirect by reducing catabolic/proteolysis activity. It also helps with blood glucose and nutrient partioning and also increased lipolysis.
Acute effect of amino acid ingestion and resistance exercise on plasma growth hormone concentration in young men.

Suminski RR, Robertson RJ, Goss [words=http://fleshlight.sjv.io/c/348327/302851/4702]FL[/words], Arslanian S, Kang J, DaSilva S, Utter AC, Metz KF.

Human Performance Laboratory, University of Houston, TX 77204, USA.

Sixteen men completed four trials at random as follows: (Trial A) performance of a single bout of resistance exercise preceded by placebo ingestion (vitamin C); (Trial B) ingestion of 1,500 mg L-arginine and 1,500 mg L-lysine, immediately followed by exercise as in Trial A; (Trial C) ingestion of amino acids as in Trial B and no exercise; (Trial D) placebo ingestion and no exercise. Growth hormone (GH) concentrations were higher at 30, 60, and 90 min during the exercise trials (A and B) compared with the resting trials (C and D) (p < .05). No differences were noted in [GH] between the exercise trials. [GH] was significantly elevated during resting conditions 60 min after amino acid ingestion compared with the placebo trial. It was concluded that ingestion of 1,500 mg arginine and 1,500 mg lysine immediately before resistance exercise does not alter exercise-induced changes in [GH] in young men. However, when the same amino acid mixture is ingested under basal conditions, the acute secretion of GH is increased.

Current Medical Research & Opinion

Vol. 7, No. 7, 1981

A. Isidori M.D. A. Lo Monaco, M.D.& M. Cappa, M.D.
Medical Clinic V. University of Rome, Rome, Italy. Received: 13th March 1981

Summary

A study was carried out in 15 male volunteers to evaluate qualitatively the secretion of growth factors following stimulation by oral amino acids. the results showed that oral administration of a combination of two amino acids (1200 mg l-lysine plus 1200 mg l-arginine pyroglutanate) provoked a release of pituitary somatotrophin & insulin. This phenomenon was reproducible & the growth hormone secreted in response to this stimulation had biological activity (as demonstrated by radiorecepter assay & somatomedin induction). The effect appeared to be specific to the combination of the two amino acids; neither of the amino acids demonstrated appreciable stimulating activity when administered alone, even at the same doses.


There is also another intersting study in whic ARG blunted the inhibitory effect of IGF-1 on GH release

Arginine counteracts the inhibitory effect of recombinant human insulin-like growth factor I on the somatotroph responsiveness to growth hormone-releasing hormone in humans.

Gianotti L, Maccario M, Lanfranco F, Ramunni J, Di Vito L, Grottoli S, Muller EE, Ghigo E, Arvat E.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Turin, Italy.

Insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) exerts a negative feedback effect on GH secretion via either direct actions at the pituitary level or indirect ones at the hypothalamic level, through stimulation of somatostatin (SS) and/or inhibition of GHRH release. In fact, recombinant human IGF-I (rhIGF-I) in humans inhibits spontaneous GH secretion as well as the GH response to GHRH and even more to GH/GH-releasing peptides, whose main action is on the hypothalamus, antagonizing SS and enhancing GHRH activity. The aim of the present study was to further clarify in humans the mechanisms underlying IGF-I-induced inhibition of somatotroph secretion. In six normal young volunteers (all women; mean +/- SEM: age, 28.3+/-1.2 yr; body mass index, 21.3+/-1.2 kg/m2) we studied the GH response to GHRH (1 microg/kg, iv, at 0 min), both alone and combined with arginine (ARG; 0.5 g/kg, iv, from 0-30 min), which probably acts via inhibition of hypothalamic SS release, after pretreatment with rhIGF-I (20 microg/kg, sc, at -180 min) or placebo. rhIGF-I increased circulating IGF-I levels (peak at -60 vs. -180 min: 54.9+/-3.9 vs. 35.9+/-3.3 mmol/L; P < 0.05) to a reproducible extent, and these levels remained stable and within the normal range until 90 min. The mean GH concentration over 3 h (from -180 to 0 min) before ARG and/or GHRH was not modified by placebo or rhIGF-I. After placebo, the GH response to GHRH (peak, 23.6+/-2.9 microg/L) was strikingly enhanced (P < 0.05) by ARG coadministration (69.6+/-9.9 microg/L). rhIGF-I blunted the GH response to GHRH (13.1+/-4.5 microg/L; P < 0.05), whereas that to GHRH plus ARG was not modified (59.5+/-8.9 microg/L), although it occurred with some delay. Mean glucose and insulin concentrations were not modified by either placebo or rhIGF-I. In conclusion, ARG counteracts the inhibitory effect of rhIGF-I on somatotroph responsiveness to GHRH in humans. These findings suggest that the acute inhibitory effect of rhIGF-I on the GH response to GHRH takes place on the hypothalamus, possibly via enhancement of SS release, and that ARG overrides this action.
 
dragon said:
...weight/resistance exercise increases testosterone (herbs like tribulus also increases testosterone)...
Herbs used to raised test has been somewhat hit or miss. Some claim good results while others get nothing from them. It can't hurt to try them but i wouldn't place too much hope on them. I'd also like to add that any result from natural supps like trib, ZMA, TongKat Ali and all the other are marginal at best. If they did i fact raise test levels, i doubt that it would raise it above the upper limits of normal test level otherwise you would most likely get HPTA suppression.
 
I wonder if you use these injections for an extended period of time won't they cause your body's natural production to slow/stop? also what's the point can't you just makes gains over time and be happy with that, Why do you have to gain so fast and how do you know it works in humans for Penis Enlargement anyway?
 
Straight8 said:
also what's the point can't you just makes gains over time and be happy with that, Why do you have to gain so fast and how do you know it works in humans for Penis Enlargement anyway?
You really want to be Penis Enlargement'ing, an hour a day for the next 10 years?
If it came down some injections, or 3,000 hours of Penis Enlargement, what would you pick?
 
Straight8 said:
I wonder if you use these injections for an extended period of time won't they cause your body's natural production to slow/stop?
Yes if you inject hormones in your body, your body will stop producing those same hormones but depending on which hormones you inject, recovery after is very quick. IGF and HGH rebound very quickly typically within a wek or two. Testosterone can take some time to recover depending on how long your therapy was. Test suppression can be minimized and recovery accelerated by using propper post cycle therapy and HCG during the cycle.

...also what's the point can't you just makes gains over time and be happy with that, Why do you have to gain so fast and how do you know it works in humans for Penis Enlargement anyway?
As Ulcasterdropout explained, the ability to accelerate gains is great as it will allow us to achieve our goals sooner than later. I'd rather have a big dick now as opposed to next year or the year after.

We know from studies that exogenous applications of certain hormones do in fact work on certain types of human tissues. We know that testosterone WILL help to increase muscle size, we know that HGH/IGF-1 WILL decrease bodyfat and increase lean body mass, We know that mystatin anti-bodies WILL increase lean body mass, but what we're not sure of is if these same hormones/polypeptides will do the same for our penis'. That is where the study that Big Al posted comes into play. That study has shown that IGF/HGH has been effective in increasing penile tissue in mice. Yes' i know that we aren't mice but none the less this study is encouraging as we now know that it is possible to increase penis size thru hormone therapy (as alot of people have theorized). Now, it's just a matter of testing this out on humans.
 
Negative posted: "I think its very strange Big Al post this article when saying on his page " How you can permanently add as much as 2 extra inches to your penis in just weeks." Why take hormons when you can gain 2 inch in weeks ? He he...

And this "Doctor" Dr. Reicher most be a great source *LOL*"

And your point is? I personally DON'T recommend injecting/ingesting any hormones....I merely posted this for informational purposes. I don't necessarily agree with everything that Dr. Reicher says, but he is a very intelligent doctor that has helped many of our members with their medical questions.

No offense intended, but you strike me as one of those individuals that try to seem intelligent by using sarcasm as opposed to actually using facts or theories. If you have information that somehow disproves what the studies have shown, please post it here.
 
Big Al said:
Negative posted: "I think its very strange Big Al post this article when saying on his page " How you can permanently add as much as 2 extra inches to your penis in just weeks." Why take hormons when you can gain 2 inch in weeks ? He he...

And this "Doctor" Dr. Reicher most be a great source *LOL*"

And your point is? I personally DON'T recommend injecting/ingesting any hormones....I merely posted this for informational purposes. I don't necessarily agree with everything that Dr. Reicher says, but he is a very intelligent doctor that has helped many of our members with their medical questions.

No offense intended, but you strike me as one of those individuals that try to seem intelligent by using sarcasm as opposed to actually using facts or theories. If you have information that somehow disproves what the studies have shown, please post it here.

My point is still why take risks with drugs/hormones if you can do it the natural way ?
Sorry Al I thought you recommend this thing to everybody, This shit is really hardcore and nothing for those who´s not willing to take chances.


Peace !
 
Alot of stuff gets posted on boards all the time and it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone should jump on the bandwagon and try it out. It doesn't mean that the board is telling anyone to do it. For myself, i find studies very interesting and although i'm comfortable with experimenting with AAS and other hormones, i certainly don't expect most members to do as i do. Everybody must decide for himself what is and isn't acceptable from their own perspective with regards to Penis Enlargement and their bodies. Studies posted are for informational purposes only...
 
sikdogg said:
Alot of stuff gets posted on boards all the time and it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone should jump on the bandwagon and try it out. It doesn't mean that the board is telling anyone to do it. For myself, i find studies very interesting and although i'm comfortable with experimenting with AAS and other hormones, i certainly don't expect most members to do as i do. Everybody must decide for himself what is and isn't acceptable from their own perspective with regards to Penis Enlargement and their bodies. Studies posted are for informational purposes only...

Ok I see.

Is there any studies with IGF-1 prove that your penis getting bigger with it.? I mean the penis got no muscle.
 
There are a few but i'm too lazy to dig them up right now but here's one...

Insulin-like growth factor 1, but not growth hormone, has in vitro proliferative effects on neonatal foreskin fibroblasts without affecting 5-alpha-reductase or androgen receptor activity.

Dykstra KD, Payne AM, Abdelrahim M, Francis GL.

Department of Pediatrics, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, Maryland.

Clinical observation of patients with congenital growth hormone (GH) deficiency and Laron-type dwarfism suggests that factors such as GH or insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) might in addition to androgens, be needed for normal phallic growth. We speculated GH or IGF-1 might have direct actions on genital tissues and performed the present study to evaluate the in vitro effects of GH and IGF-1 on cultured neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. Cells derived from foreskins of normal newborns were studied between cell passages 6 and 15. Serum-free media with and without 100 ng/ml GH, IGF-1, or both were added 24 hours prior to and at the time of study. To determine the activity of 5-alpha-reductase (5-alpha-R), 3H-testosterone (T: 2 nM) was added, and 5-alpha-R activity was calculated as femtomoles 3H-dihydrotestosterone and 3H-androstanediol produced/microgram DNA/hour. Androgen receptor (AR) binding was determined by the addition of 3H-dihydrotestosterone (dHT; 0.03125-0.5 nM) in the presence and absence of a 200-fold excess of unlabeled dHT. Specific binding was used in Scatchard analysis for determination of AR number (Bmax) and binding affinity (Kd). The rate of DNA synthesis was determined by incorporation of 3H-thymidine (3H-Thy) into trichloroacetic acid-insoluble material. DNA and protein content were determined on cell lysates. IGF-1, but not GH, had proliferative effects (significant increases in the rate of 3H-Thy incorporation, DNA, and protein content) but no effect on 5-alpha-R activity, Bmax or Kd.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
 
From what I understand the best way to increase igf-1 levels and test levels is throught a routine of good abundant nutrition and HEAVY squats. Over the years of reading bodybuilding books, mags, etc., this has always been stated as a fact, that squats really raise igf-1 levels. The reason being is that they place maximun stress on the infrastructure of the body, heavy lung inhalation and expantion, they literally shock the body to increased growth levels.
Good luck.
 
thedudeo said:
From what I understand the best way to increase igf-1 levels and test levels is throught a routine of good abundant nutrition and HEAVY squats. Over the years of reading bodybuilding books, mags, etc., this has always been stated as a fact, that squats really raise igf-1 levels. The reason being is that they place maximun stress on the infrastructure of the body, heavy lung inhalation and expantion, they literally shock the body to increased growth levels.
Good luck.
I've heard that also, but there is a limit to one's natural ability.
 
Yep- heavy breather squats from the "Super Squats" workout system by Stuart McRobert. Pick a squatting weight that you can barely do 10 straight reps with. Squat close to or to parallel for 1 rep, pause and take a couple of deep breaths, then do another rep. By the time you get to rep 15, you'll probably have to take 5 or more deep breaths between reps. Do 20 reps total. I've done this before and it's definitely a great workout. I've puked on 2 occasions from it, so if you're going to do breather squats, have a receptacle of some kind nearby ;)
 
Yep squats are supposed to be the best for testosterone and but for chest expansion I think heavy curls holding your breath at maximum expansion. I would not do this if you smoke or have fainted in the past from similar exercise, or have an electrolyte imbalance as you could have some serious problems. But I did these and I expanded my chest by 3 inches in only a couple of months or maybe less.
 
I am about to get on some quality igf-1lr3 soon. I am not only doing this for the benifits of Penis Enlargement but I am also a bodybuilder. igf-1 is know to create hyperplasia (dividing of the cells) so this might be an interesting experiment. I will let you guys know the progress.
 
rydog said:
I am about to get on some quality igf-1lr3 soon. I am not only doing this for the benifits of Penis Enlargement but I am also a bodybuilder. igf-1 is know to create hyperplasia (dividing of the cells) so this might be an interesting experiment. I will let you guys know the progress.
Document your growth and post up...
 
man all this talk of cancers especially prostate sorta freaks me out. I know a guy who had a rapid case of prostate cancer and they had to remove the twins surgicly. and both cancers can be awful to watch someone die from. none of which are worth it to me for a slight perk in penis growth. I will stick to exercises and stretching. and it takes a special kind guy IMHO to stick a needle down there. of which I can honestly say I am not in that class.
 
LOL I dont plan on injecting in my penis. Unlike HGH, IGF-1 is normally injected intra-muscularly versus subcutaneous(right under the skin). HGH produces igf-1 through the liver. So injecting IGF-1 is more direct acting. I dont think it matters where the IGF-1 is injected for Penis Enlargement purposes. I will document the results later on in this thread.
 
loco said:
man all this talk of cancers especially prostate sorta freaks me out. I know a guy who had a rapid case of prostate cancer and they had to remove the twins surgicly. and both cancers can be awful to watch someone die from. none of which are worth it to me for a slight perk in penis growth. I will stick to exercises and stretching. and it takes a special kind guy IMHO to stick a needle down there. of which I can honestly say I am not in that class.
I hear ya... no one want cancer, but what's interesting is that in europe IGF-1 is commonly prescribed to cancer patients to help them increase body mass.
 
rydog said:
LOL I dont plan on injecting in my penis. Unlike HGH, IGF-1 is normally injected intra-muscularly versus subcutaneous(right under the skin). HGH produces igf-1 through the liver. So injecting IGF-1 is more direct acting. I dont think it matters where the IGF-1 is injected for Penis Enlargement purposes. I will document the results later on in this thread.
For its anabolic properties, yes igf-1 is more direct acting but hgh provides other benefits besides increased igf-1 levels. Hgh is the closest thing to the fountain of youth that's currently available today. This may not be important for you if you're in your 20's to early 30's, but as you get closer to 40... Also, IGF-1 can only be used for 6 weeks or so before the benefits begin to diminish, whereas hgh can be taken indefinitely.

In my opinion, igf-1 is great to kickstart an hgh cycle and for post cycle. All other times, i would prefer to run hgh.
 
Here are some interesting findings regarding oral use of l arginine and other oral suppliments which significantly increase HGH

Growth Hormone: Amino Acids as GH Secretagogues
A Review of the Literature
April 2001
by Kimberly Pryor and Ward Dean, MD

Growth hormone is released by the pituitary gland in the brain. GH is responsible for enhancing muscle growth, burning fat and maintaining the immune system. Many scientists have linked the changes seen with aging--loss of lean body mass, thinning of the skin and an increase in adipose (fat) tissue--to the decline in growth hormone that begins in the human body by the age of 30 (Fig. 1,).

Growth hormone is a concern of many athletes and life-extension enthusiasts, who commonly use amino acid supplements to boost levels of this important hormone. Anecdotal evidence is plentiful that amino acid supplements can offer anabolic effects consistent with growth hormone release. But the question remaining is whether research supports the wide-spread belief that amino acid supplements really do act as growth hormone secretagogues.

Intravenous administration of some amino acids is known to result in a significant growth-hormone release. For example, the 52% rise in serum arginine that occurs after low dose, intravenous arginine infusion is associated with a significant rise in serum growth hormone levels. In fact, clinicians routinely use an arginine infusion test to determine the responsiveness of the pituitary to releasing growth hormone in humans.(1-2) Intravenous ornithine also increases growth hormone release in humans, producing a five-fold
increase in serum growth hormone in 45 minutes.(3)

Life extension pioneers Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw, in their popular book Life Extension: A Practical Scientific Approach, advocated the use of amino acids to boost growth hormone production, particularly ornithine and arginine, and the prescription drug and amino acid, L-Dopa (Fig. 2). It was clear that Pearson and Shaws protocol, including ornithine and arginine, did indeed appear to offer benefits. Pearson and Shaw state, 'L-arginine/L-ornithine cause the release of growth hormone by different mechanisms, so they are even more effective when taken together.' However, their book does not go into detail nor describe any examples of growth-hormone-releasing studies performed on either of these two amino acids.(4)

Given the fact that scientists have presented us with a head-turning volley of contradictory evidence, is Pearson and Shaws unwavering faith in amino acids as growth-hormone releasers justified? An interpretation of the studies relating to amino acids as growth hormone secretagogues shows that, despite the mixed results, there are plenty of reasons to include amino acids in a supplement regimen.

Ornithine
Ornithine is derived from the amino acid arginine. High doses of oral ornithine have successfully raised growth hormone levels in some studies. Bucci, et al, investigated the effect of 40, 100 and 170 mg/kg of oral L-ornithine HCl on 12 bodybuilders. Twenty-five percent of the subjects experienced significant increases in serum growth hormone levels at the two lower doses, while half the subjects showed an increase in growth hormone at the highest dose. Growth hormone rose, in some cases, up to four times the baseline level.(5)

Unfortunately, the highest dose used to increase growth hormone also caused osmotic diarrhea in the males tested, a side effect not seen in the three females who consumed high ornithine doses. The females also experienced a rise in GH after each dose, leading the researchers to conclude, 'Oral ornithine should be studied in more detail in female strength athletes.'

Arginine
The ability of oral arginine to raise growth hormone has been investigated in numerous studies with conflicting results. For example, in one study, subjects given 6 grams
of oral arginine experienced a 100% increase in plasma levels of arginine without any growth hormone release.(6) Other researchers administered oral arginine to 12 young and 5 elderly non-obese adults, all of whom had a body mass index (BathmateI) less than 30. The subjects participated in three trials: resistive weight-lifting exercise with no
placebo; 5 grams of oral L-arginine only; and 5 grams of arginine supplementation prior to exercise.

When arginine was consumed at rest, it did not significantly raise GH levels, compared with baseline values, in either the young or the old subjects. In fact, GH levels in those consuming arginine at rest were significantly lower than during the exercise-only trial. Consuming arginine before exercise did not significantly raise the GH concentrations in either the old or the young subjects, compared to exercise only. Surprisingly, the amount of GH secreted in the exercise-plus-arginine trial was 20% less than during exercise only in the young subjects, indicating arginine may actually blunt growth hormone production, particularly in the young.(7)

Other researchers drew the same conclusion in a study of 16 young men during an acute episode of resistive weight lifting. After 3 grams of oral arginine and lysine, the subjects experienced a peak GH response to exercise approximately 15% lower than during exercise without supplementation.(8) One group of researchers, after reviewing the evidence, wrote, 'These results suggest that oral arginine, unlike intravenously infused arginine, does not appear to be an effective means of enhancing GH secretion.'(7)

Researchers suspect that arginine may only act as a growth hormone secretagogue at night, rather than prior to exercise or during non-exercise daytime conditions. When researchers administered 250 mg/kg/day of oral arginine aspartate to five healthy subjects aged 20 to 35 for seven days, the rise in GH that occurred during slow wave sleep was approximately 60% higher in the subjects after arginine aspartate administration than in the control period. These same results were not obtained with a lower dose of 100 mg/kg/day.(9)

Another group of researchers achieved promising results when treating 12 normal adults with one large, 37.5-gram dose of arginine aspartate, administered orally. The treatment caused a small but significant release of serum growth hormone in these subjects.(10)

Arginine and Ornithine
When administered together, arginine and ornithine do appear to offer anabolic benefits. These benefits appear to be caused by growth hormone release, but this remains unproven. In a double-blind study of 22 adult males participating in a 5-week progressive strength-training program, half the subjects orally consumed a combination of 2 grams of L-arginine and 1 gram of L-ornithine; the other half consumed a placebo. Following a short-term strength program using progressively higher intensities, subjects
taking the arginine-ornithine combination scored significantly higher in total strength and lean body mass and excreted less urinary hydroxyproline (an amino acid found in collagen, the excretion of which is a marker of catabolism) than subjects on placebos. In reviewing the study, one group of researchers wrote, 'It was concluded that arginine and ornithine taken in prescribed doses can, in conjunction with a high-intensity, strength-training program, increase total strength and lean body mass in a relatively short time.'

The researchers suggested that the lower hydroxyproline levels were an indication that arginine and ornithine aided in recovery from chronic stress by alleviating tissue breakdown. The reviewers hypothesized that these changes were due to increases in growth hormone release, although GH was not measured.(11-12)

Ornithine-alpha-ketoglutarate (OKG)
Ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (OKG) is a salt formed of two molecules of ornithine and one molecule of alpha-ketoglutarate. OKG is a promising anti-catabolic agent that
promotes wound healing and protein synthesis. Researchers have hypothesized that OKG fulfills these functions by encouraging the secretion of insulin and human growth hormone, and by upregulating glutamine and arginine production. When fed enterally to trauma patients, OKG significantly increased both IGF-1 and growth hormone
levels.(13-17)

Although few, if any, oral studies exist on OKGs ability to release growth hormone in normal subjects, studies do show that in healthy subjects OKG does increase tissue levels of glutamine and arginine, which are regulators of protein synthesis. In fact, animal studies show that ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (OKG) generates more glutamine in the systemic circulation than glutamine itself when these substances are given orally.(18-19) Oral glutamine has been shown to release growth hormone in some studies.(20)

Arginine Pyroglutamate and Lysine
Arginine and lysine may work synergistically to release growth hormone. In a study of 15 healthy male subjects, separate consumption of arginine pyroglutamate or lysine
as single nutrients did not significantly increase growth hormone compared to baseline. In another study of normal young males, oral administration of 1,200 mg of L-lysine did not raise serum growth hormone levels.(21)

Studies indicate, however, that these two amino acids can work together to instigate the release of growth hormone. In 15 healthy male subjects aged 15 to 20 years old, 1200 milligrams of arginine pyroglutamate combined with L-lysine hydrochloride significantly elevated biologically active growth hormone from two to eight times the baseline value at 30 to 120 minutes after consuming the amino acids.(21)

Another study indicated arginine and lysine may act to increase growth hormone--but only under specific conditions. Sixteen men randomly completed four trials. Trial A
consisted of a performance of a single bout of resistance exercise preceded by placebo ingestion (vitamin C). Trial B involved ingestion of 1,500 mg L-arginine and 1,500 mg L-lysine, imwww.ely followed by exercise as in Trial A. In Trial C, subjects consumed arginine and lysine as in Trial B, but with no exercise. In Trial D, subjects consumed a placebo and did not engage in exercise. There was no difference in growth hormone concentrations between the placebo-supplemented subjects and the amino acid-treated subjects. However, in Trial C, during resting conditions, growth hormone was significantly elevated 60 minutes after consumption of arginine and lysine compared with the placebo trial. The researchers concluded that ingestion of 1,500 mg arginine and 1,500 mg lysine imwww.ely before resistance exercise did not alter exercise-induced changes in GH in young men. When the same amino acid mixture is ingested under resting conditions, however, acute GH secretion is increased.(22)

Unfortunately, not all studies investigating the use of arginine and lysine have resulted in positive findings. One study investigated whether oral arginine/lysine could be used to increase basal IGF-I and GH levels in non-obese elderly men to values similar to those of untreated young men. Researchers gave two groups of 8 healthy elderly men either 1.5 grams of arginine plus 1.5 grams of lysine or a placebo twice daily for 14 days. The researchers also administered the amino acid combination to young men during the same time period and measured GH and IGF-1 levels. The researchers found that arginine and lysine administration did not significantly alter basal or sleep-related GH levels or serum IGF-I, either in the elderly or young subjects. 'Our data suggest that oral arginine/lysine is not a practical means of chronically enhancing GH secretion in old men,' the researchers reported.(23) Another group of researchers suggested the lack of GH release in this study may be due to the low doses used.(7)

Glycine
Glycine is a nonessential amino acid contained in gelatin protein and is an important component of collagen. Although much of the early research revolved around glycines ability to increase strength in athletes, more recent studies have documented that oral glycine can indeed raise growth hormone levels in humans. In fact, researchers have hypothesized that the reason glycine has been found to increase muscle strength in many studies, (with females experiencing a 22% increase and men a 32% increase in cycle ergometry workloads after ingestion of 5 to 12 grams of glycine daily) may be the result of its growth-hormone-boosting capabilities.(24)

One study clearly illustrated glycines ability to act as a GH secretagogue. When 19 normal, non-obese subjects consumed 6.75 grams of glycine orally, growth hormone levels significantly increased for 3 hours, reaching a maximum of 3 to 4 times that of baseline at 2 hours. Interestingly, the only group of subjects not deriving a growth-hormone-boosting benefit from glycine was non-obese diabetics. According to the researchers, 'glycine is one of the stimulatory agents inducing the pituitary gland to secrete hGH.'(25)

On the other hand, another study of eight men revealed that six or twelve grams of glycine daily for 10 weeks could increase urine creatine levels, but did not improve grip
strength.(26) These same disappointing results were upheld in a double-blind, crossover study of 33 football players given a placebo or 5 grams of glycine daily. After consuming glycine for 21 days, the subjects did not experience any noticeable benefit to work output.(27)

After reviewing the above studies, one group of researchers hypothesized that the reason glycine showed no effect in the later trials is because glycine enhances growth hormone levels already produced during a whole-body resistance training program and during anaerobic or intermittent exercise. In subjects performing endurance exercise where growth hormone release is low, glycine would not show any benefit because this amino acid only enhances effects of growth hormone already produced. The researchers concluded, 'Acute ingestion of large p.o. doses of glycine appears to stimulate release of growth hormone and increase creatine synthesis rates. Both of these
attributes are desirable for persons undergoing progressive weight training.'(28)

More recent research lends support to the above hypothesis. In a randomized, double-blind, crossover study published in December 2000, 13 human subjects were given a supplement consisting of glycine and an L-arginine salt or a placebo over 23 days. Treatment with arginine and glycine increased the subjects mean resistance to fatigue up to 28% over the controls during acute exhaustive high-intensity anaerobic isokinetic exercise. The subjects taking glycine and arginine also experienced an overall gain in total muscle work of 10.5% more than controls.(29)

Glutamine
Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in human muscle and plasma, directly regulating both the production and wearing-down of protein and immune cell activity.(30-31) When 9 healthy subjects consumed two grams of oral glutamine 45 minutes after a light breakfast, 8 of the 9 subjects experienced elevated plasma growth hormone within 90 minutes. 'These findings demonstrate,' the study authors wrote, 'that a surprisingly small oral glutamine load is capable of elevating…plasma growth hormone.'(32)

In the small intestine, glutamine is converted into citruline, which in turn triggers the synthesis of arginine, an amino acid shown to release growth hormone in some studies. Moreover, glutamine is converted into glutamate, which can directly enhance growth hormone secretion.

GABA
Gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) is the brains major inhibitory neurotransmitter. Studies have shown it is responsible for both the rise of growth hormone (when at rest) or the inhibition of growth hormone (when exercising).(33-35) Oral GABA supplementation has increased growth hormone levels in humans. In one study, a single oral dose of 5 grams of gamma aminobutyric acid administered to 19 subjects significantly elevated plasma growth hormone levels compared to placebo-treated controls.(36)

Additional Benefits
Each of the amino acids discussed here offers a number of other benefits beyond their potential role in growth hormone release. For example, glutamine shifts the fuel for muscle from glucose to fatty acids and accelerates fat burning. Glutamine is also a precursor for the antioxidant glutathione, which protects the liver. Supplemental glutamine has shielded the body from stress by deflecting cortisol damage, and has prevented the muscle wasting associated with cortisol treatments.(37-39) Another example is ornithine, which is an important constituent of the urea cycle and, together with arginine, an important immunity-enhancing nutrient. Ornithine may help reduce
elevated ammonia levels seen after exercise, a benefit that can result in reduced fatigue.(40)

Given the number of benefits amino acids produce independently of growth hormone release, whether or not they act as growth hormone secretagogues may not be the most important consideration in adding them to a supplementation regimen.

Amino Acids Study Results
Intravenous Ornithine Produces a five-fold increase in serum growth hormone in humans.
Ornithine Increased serum growth hormone in bodybuilders, up to four times the baseline level.
Arginine 250 mg/kg/day of oral arginine aspartate given to five healthy subjects for seven days caused a 60% rise in GH during slow wave sleep compared to the control period.
Arginine and Ornithine In a double-blind study, adult males participating in a 5-week progressive strength-training program who consumed 2 grams of L-arginine and 1 gram of L-ornithine experienced significantly higher total strength and lean body mass scores and excreted less urinary hydroxyproline than placebo-treated subjects.
Ornithine Alpha-ketoglutarate (OKG) Significantly increased IGF-1 and growth hormone levels in trauma patients. In healthy subject, OKG increased tissue levels of growth-hormone-releasing glutamine.
Arginine and lysine 1200 milligrams of arginine pyroglutamate combined with L-lysine hydrochloride significantly elevated biologically active growth hormone from two to eight times the baseline value in 15 healthy male subjects aged 15 to 20 years old.
Arginine and lysine 1,500 mg arginine and 1,500 mg lysine increased GH in young men only during resting conditions.
Glycine In 19 normal, non-obese subjects, 6.75 grams of glycine increased growth hormone levels up to 300 to 400 percent that of baseline.
Glycine and L-arginine Increased
the subjects mean resistance to fatigue up to 28% over the controls during acute exhaustive high-intensity anaerobic isokinetic exercise and produced an overall gain in total muscle work of 10.5% more than controls.
Gamma Aminobutyric Acid (GABA) A single oral dose of 5 grams of GABA administered to 19 subjects significantly elevated plasma growth hormone levels compared to placebo-treated controls.
Glutamine Two grams of oral glutamine resulted in elevated plasma growth hormone in 8 of 9 subjects tested.
 
I've read that paper before and according to it, GABA seems to be the only one that shows any promise. Everything else appears to be a waste.
 
Glycine In 19 normal, non-obese subjects, 6.75 grams of glycine increased growth hormone levels up to 300 to 400 percent that of baseline.
Glycine and L-arginine Increased
the subjects mean resistance to fatigue up to 28% over the controls during acute exhaustive high-intensity anaerobic isokinetic exercise and produced an overall gain in total muscle work of 10.5% more than controls.

Waste in what context?
Don't see how the above example is a waste...and that is just one example.
A study is a study...you can always find ones that refute others. This paper is pretty comprehensive...not just some isolated study from so and so...and with nothing to be gained monetary or product wise. Anyway...just saying.
 
Glycine
Glycine is a nonessential amino acid contained in gelatin protein and is an important component of collagen. Although much of the early research revolved around glycines ability to increase strength in athletes, more recent studies have documented that oral glycine can indeed raise growth hormone levels in humans. In fact, researchers have hypothesized that the reason glycine has been found to increase muscle strength in many studies, (with females experiencing a 22% increase and men a 32% increase in cycle ergometry workloads after ingestion of 5 to 12 grams of glycine daily) may be the result of its growth-hormone-boosting capabilities.(24)

One study clearly illustrated glycines ability to act as a GH secretagogue. When 19 normal, non-obese subjects consumed 6.75 grams of glycine orally, growth hormone levels significantly increased for 3 hours, reaching a maximum of 3 to 4 times that of baseline at 2 hours. Interestingly, the only group of subjects not deriving a growth-hormone-boosting benefit from glycine was non-obese diabetics. According to the researchers, 'glycine is one of the stimulatory agents inducing the pituitary gland to secrete hGH.'(25)

On the other hand, another study of eight men revealed that six or twelve grams of glycine daily for 10 weeks could increase urine creatine levels, but did not improve grip
strength.(26) These same disappointing results were upheld in a double-blind, crossover study of 33 football players given a placebo or 5 grams of glycine daily. After consuming glycine for 21 days, the subjects did not experience any noticeable benefit to work output.(27)

After reviewing the above studies, one group of researchers hypothesized that the reason glycine showed no effect in the later trials is because glycine enhances growth hormone levels already produced during a whole-body resistance training program and during anaerobic or intermittent exercise. In subjects performing endurance exercise where growth hormone release is low, glycine would not show any benefit because this amino acid only enhances effects of growth hormone already produced. The researchers concluded, 'Acute ingestion of large p.o. doses of glycine appears to stimulate release of growth hormone and increase creatine synthesis rates. Both of these
attributes are desirable for persons undergoing progressive weight training.'(28)

More recent research lends support to the above hypothesis. In a randomized, double-blind, crossover study published in December 2000, 13 human subjects were given a supplement consisting of glycine and an L-arginine salt or a placebo over 23 days. Treatment with arginine and glycine increased the subjects mean resistance to fatigue up to 28% over the controls during acute exhaustive high-intensity anaerobic isokinetic exercise. The subjects taking glycine and arginine also experienced an overall gain in total muscle work of 10.5% more than controls.(29)
You're right... after reading about arginine, ornithine, and lysine i must have skimmed thru the rest too fast. Arginine + glycine does sound good. I'm not arguing that certain combo's of amino acids have biological activity... What i meant by a waste is that gh just doesn't do what most people think it will. Also arginine has been shown to inhibit the reduction of GH due to increased IGF-1 levels. In terms of growth it would be mostly indirect by reducing catabolic/proteolysis activity. It also helps with blood glucose and nutrient partioning and also increased lipolysis.

Personally, i'd rather just inject gh if i want more... it's proven to work every time and can be controlled to give you the benefits you want. Also, from my experience with gh, it's overrated in terms of it muscle building abilities. I've takien it by itself and with anabolics. Most of it's effects is lipolytic and most anabolic gains were from the gear that i took with gh. If anabolic performance is what you're after, igf-1 does a better job. But if you're interested in GH from an aging man's perspective (over 40) and/or for its other health benefits, then gh is the way.
 
sikdogg said:
You're right... after reading about arginine, ornithine, and lysine i must have skimmed thru the rest too fast. Arginine + glycine does sound good. I'm not arguing that certain combo's of amino acids have biological activity... What i meant by a waste is that gh just doesn't do what most people think it will. Also arginine has been shown to inhibit the reduction of GH due to increased IGF-1 levels. In terms of growth it would be mostly indirect by reducing catabolic/proteolysis activity. It also helps with blood glucose and nutrient partioning and also increased lipolysis.

Personally, i'd rather just inject gh if i want more... it's proven to work every time and can be controlled to give you the benefits you want. Also, from my experience with gh, it's overrated in terms of it muscle building abilities. I've takien it by itself and with anabolics. Most of it's effects is lipolytic and most anabolic gains were from the gear that i took with gh. If anabolic performance is what you're after, igf-1 does a better job. But if you're interested in GH from an aging man's perspective (over 40) and/or for its other health benefits, then gh is the way.

Okay, I see where you are coming from. What I am interested in is its overall health aspect as you mentioned which can also carryover into muscle building (not massive...just better). Also, some of the suppliments can assist in better erections. This is a plus for some here who experience erection problems after the manual training. I have not had any injuries as a result of this training but did experience some erection difficulties...the suppliments have rectified this and have allowed some additional growth (1/2 inch) rofl
 
Straight8 said:
Yep squats are supposed to be the best for testosterone and but for chest expansion I think heavy curls holding your breath at maximum expansion. I would not do this if you smoke or have fainted in the past from similar exercise, or have an electrolyte imbalance as you could have some serious problems. But I did these and I expanded my chest by 3 inches in only a couple of months or maybe less.

For chest expansion using high-rep squats, you're supposed to immediately superset to light, high-rep pullovers across a bench.
 
Big Al said:
For chest expansion using high-rep squats, you're supposed to immediately superset to light, high-rep pullovers across a bench.
OK, this makes more sense... i speculate it's the pullovers that's doing the chest expansion more than the squats.
 
Any updates on more people who are actually using Androgel and or the IGF injections?

IMO, atleast a 1 inch length gain with some girth gain is "guaranteed" (for most guys who have not really exploited the full potential of their body tissues/composition) if you use an [words=https://shop.mattersofsize.com/products/sizegenetics-penis-extender]extender[/words] with some good libido pills like VigRX for about 3 months at around 3 hours per day or more max extension.

Add a good 15min- 1hour of clamping and "standard" Penis Enlargement per day and you are loking at extra growth/accelerated growth if you keep at it.

Dare I say, you may get a "guaranteed" (for most guys who have not really exploited the full potential of their body tissues/composition) 2 inch length gain in 3 months and maybe an inch or so in girth with these aforementioned exercises.

So, with something like Androgel and or IGF truly providing rather fast enlargment I would also expect even faster growth and or more growth.

I'd really like to learn more details of people who are actually using IGF and or Androgel. Androgel seems more appealing since it is trandermal/topical application whereas IGF is injection.

Details of a few experienced users and or larger volumes of more vague summarizing testimonials/statistics for enlargement would be great.

The more the merrier.

If you know of ANY testimonial, users, statistics etc then please post them here. Please feel free to comment at will.

Last but not least, a BIG thanks to DLD, moderators/admins, supporters of all sorts and contributors of all sorts for the great community and free public discussion boards at [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]!

Let the discusion begin...

Peace.
 
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mcgirkz said:
IGF will cause all cells to grow. if you are predisposed to a cancer, it will accelerate it's growth.
The growth in not localized but systemic so i'm not sure if injecting it into your dick will do much.

Also, predisposition to cancer will not accleerate or cause cancer to grow. You must already have cancer in order to accelerate its growth from igf-1.
 
Alternate said:
Any updates on more people who are actually using Androgel and or the IGF injections?...
Both are a waste... test doesn't directly affect the penis like DHT does. Also what makes you think that rubbing test on your dick will make it grow?? If that was the case, bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids. Both test and IGF-1 affect the body systemically not locally.
 
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sikdogg said:
Both are a waste... test doesn't directly affect the penis like DHT does. Also what makes you think that rubbing test on your dick will make it grow?? If that was the case, bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids. Both test and IGF-1 affect the body systemically not locally.

With all due respect, your opinion/your personal analysis that you feel is fact is but one opinion/personal analysis. My experiences has been that there are varying opinions/analysis for atleast 90% of opinions/reported facts/personal analysis.

You say it's a waste. On page 1, a story is told about a man who attributes his large penis to rubbing Androgel on it and there are medical reports of IGF injections potentially duplicating cells/enhancing growth, specifically in the penis, at rates that are apparently remarkable.

I also have read of a few people who were actually going to be trying one or both methods, but at this point I have lost track of who they are and what their experiences have been.

These reports are what has given me reason to question results of actual application.

Have you personally tried either? Why do you seem to be so conclusive about them being a "waste" to the point where you seem somewhat condescending?

The example about body builders in comparison is flawed and vague at this point, IMO. There are certainly a lot of variables to consider, as I would give you benefit of the doubt to know or atleast fathom. It is my understanding that there is quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.

While the descriptions (that I recall, discerned and that have been initially described) in this thread seem to imply that benefits were being discussed and vaguely confirmed for local/direct application (especially and for Androgel). However, whether we are talking about experiences from local and or "systematic" application, I am still interested in learning about whatever experiences people have had with whatever application fore the purpose of penis enlargement.

Lastly, feel free to elaborate on DHT and or anything else that is relative. I recall, from a small amount of reading that I have done, that DHT is what testosterone becomes after being processed through the body in a specific way and or time frame. I really don't know much about it.

Thank you for your reply.
 
Alternate said:
With all due respect, your opinion/your personal analysis that you feel is fact is but one opinion/personal analysis. My experiences has been that there are varying opinions/analysis for atleast 90% of opinions/reported facts/personal analysis.

You say it's a waste. On page 1, a story is told about a man who attributes his large penis to rubbing Androgel on it and there are medical reports of IGF injections potentially duplicating cells/enhancing growth, specifically in the penis, at rates that are apparently remarkable.
Opinions really mean nothing regarding this issue... it's about science. A single person attributing his gains from Androjel doesn't prove a darn thing... it's anecdotal evidence at best. I've been to other boards where people (more than one) have claimed Androjel did squat for them. I've also been to otheres where everyone seems to swear by it. The fact is that test exerts very little effect on the penis. DHT it the primary male hormone that is most androgenic. DHT is the androgen that is responsible for most male traits and that includes the penis. The only affect that test may exert is thru its conversion to DHT. Since you are only applying a few milligrasms of test to your penis, i seriously doubt that that was enough to make a difference.

The page one post of the IGF-1 rat study show promise but if you read it carefully, you would see that they were injecting igf-1 into rats of differing age groups and the rats that showed the most changes were the youngest ones. Add to that the fact that the changes that the young rats showed was not earth shattering. It was a positive marked increase, but not that big. One could speculate that the changes could simply be a result of natural growth as young rats would definitely have higher levels of GH and igf-1 to facilitate natural growth as it is in humans. Also of note is that in the rat study, IGF-1 was not injected into the rat's penis.

Supra (a [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] member) has injected IGF-1 in his penis and if i recall, he didn't experience any significant growth. Alot of bobybuilders inject IGF-1 into worked muscles (for example if the pecs were worked then it was injected in the pecs) in the hopes of localized growth but the fact is that other bodybuilders experience the same level of gains from injecting subcutaneously or into the same muscle for all injections. This shows that there really isn't alot of localized effect happening.

Have you personally tried either? Why do you seem to be so conclusive about them being a "waste" to the point where you seem somewhat condescending?
I have tried IGH-1 but not on my penis. I have used it sub-q and IM with the same effects, leaner body and much more vascularization. I also have alot of experience in the use of anabolic steriods and have injected various flavors of test, deca, tren, and boldenone. I have also done transdermal applications of steroids and prohormones so i think i know a hell of alot more about how androjel works than you would. I am ver familiar with how steroids exert their effects on the body and i know for a fact that they all work systemically. If i'm injecting 750-1,000 miligrams of test into my delts every week or rubbing 750miligrams of test to my chest and legs 2-3 times a day without any bodypart exploding into enormous proportions, i really doubt that a few miligrams rubbed on my penis will do squat.

The example about body builders in comparison is flawed and vague at this point, IMO. There are certainly a lot of variables to consider, as I would give you benefit of the doubt to know or atleast fathom. It is my understanding that there is quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.
The comparison is not flawed nor is it vague. Bodybuilders have been using transdermal applications of test and other hormones/prohormones for some time now and in all cases, the effects were systemic not localized.
 
JFYI, here is an update from the conversation in the other thread:

sikdogg said:
Opinions really mean nothing regarding this issue... it's about science. A single person attributing his gains from Androjel doesn't prove a darn thing... it's anecdotal evidence at best. I've been to other boards where people (more than one) have claimed Androjel did squat for them. I've also been to otheres where everyone seems to swear by it.

This is exactly my point. That is exactly what I am sure that I said here:

Originally Posted by Alternate
With all due respect, your opinion/your personal analysis that you feel is fact is but one opinion/personal analysis. My experiences has been that there are varying opinions/analysis for atleast 90% of opinions/reported facts/personal analysis.

And, just to clarify my input, this "science" that you mention can also be contradicting/varying from difference sources.

I am glad we agree. Maybe there was only a misunderstanding in semantics.

The fact is, in this thread, there is more than one medical study exerpt that claims gains from IGF and there is a testimonial and endorsement about Androgel for gains. Still, your personal comments are saying that it is a "waste" and or will do little to nothing, essentially.

You also make points about local and systematic effects, which seems almost irrelevent to my idea of what I am meaning to discuss because I don't care whether it is local or systematic as long as the reults are discerned.

If I didn't realize that such carying/contradicting "facts", "science" testimonies and opinions are to be considered in context with all other possible sources/information/testimonials/opinions/"facts" and science" etc, then I woudl have never made a post in this thread.

The fact is that test exerts very little effect on the penis.

Ok. I can see how that makes sense in general. Still:

1) Amount of effect is relative to the individual's perception and circumstance regardless of scientific measure.

2) Do you have any statistics to support this statement of yours?

IMO at this point given the contradicting/varying information, to draw conclusions about this requires nothing but testimonials of experience statistics.

The more people that try it and report their findings the better we will get an idea of results.

People can talk about all the "facts", "science", theories, opinions etc etc that they want. Multiple experimentation with actual records of results in a wide variety of males will be the best statistics to be conclusive about.

I was hoping to get some personal comments from Supra and Rydog, as well as as many other people as possible. They were pareticularly mentioned about experimenting with loac and systematic injection of IGF-1.

More testimony from people's experience with Androgel is what I am interested in too. So far, all I know of is 1 testimonial attributed to a man's large penis growth and your comments saying that you don't think it will do anything or little of anything.

There are countless examples of all kinds of paradigm and revolutionary changes/findings that seemed completely illogical or unlikely rational/conclusive at first. Ex: The world is flat, we will never fly in space, computers will never be needed for everyday use, you can't make your penis or tits grow at all and you are stuck with what you were born with, the magic bullet killed JFK and there was only one shooter etc etc etc.

While this particular case is less significant, the principle of point that there certainly seems to be reason for more experimentation and recorded results to be more conclusive is very rational IMO.

DHT it the primary male hormone that is most androgenic. DHT is the androgen that is responsible for most male traits and that includes the penis.

Ok. So I was right when I said:

Originally Posted by Alternate
I recall, from a small amount of reading that I have done, that DHT is what testosterone becomes after being processed through the body in a specific way and or time frame.

I am also aware that it has an effect on hair, and I imgaine that you are correct that it is responsible for a variety of predominantly male traits.

You say:

The only affect that test may exert is thru its conversion to DHT. Since you are only applying a few milligrasms of test to your penis, i seriously doubt that that was enough to make a difference.

The way you present this, seems to justify a very rational and logical response.

1) If you need to convert the test into DHT for growth, how do you increase efficiency of converting test to DHT and having it effect the penis primarily?

2) You insinuate that "a few milligrams" won't make a difference. However, neither will tugging on your dick for only a few hours or days. It seems to me that volume of application may increase chances. The guy who attributed Androgel to his aparent large size did not seem to say that it happened "over night". He may have been consistantly using it for an extended period of time. Same about any other supplement/hormoone/injection/cream etc. Maybe the volume, frequebncy and cumulative time is absolutely essential to discerning results. Actually, it seems that would be the primarily if not soley rational way to discern.

3) I respect your doubts. Still, I do not think that we should be unequivocally conclusive simply because of your current doubts.

You say:

The page one post of the IGF-1 rat study show promise but if you read it carefully, you would see that they were injecting igf-1 into rats of differing age groups and the rats that showed the most changes were the youngest ones.

I did see that, before I posted. It didn't change my rationale for posting as I have.

Add to that the fact that the changes that the young rats showed was not earth shattering. It was a positive marked increase, but not that big.

Growth is growth. I agree, value of growth is something to take into considerations. I also know that satisfaction of growth is relative to the individual's perception and circumstances. Some people want evey cm and mm they can get. Also, think about people who are plateauing a few mm/cm short of their idea size.

Lastly, rats are rats and humans are humans. There may be different effects in humans for various reasons that I can fathom but do not currently understand in full.

One could speculate that the changes could simply be a result of natural growth as young rats would definitely have higher levels of GH and igf-1 to facilitate natural growth as it is in humans.

I agree and I did speculate the same. Still, that is mere speculation and it did not change my rationale of posting as I have. And, still, all the rats made some gains.

Furthermore, the rats made gains in these same "cavernous smooth muscle cells" that we have in our penis.

Also of note is that in the rat study, IGF-1 was not injected into the rat's penis.

I did not see any notation of where the rats were injected, actually. However, assuming that a rat penis is very small I would not suspect that it would be considered a good injection point. Obviously this is relative to your dicussion abot local and systematic effects. So, I will simply reiterate that I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made. Also, assuming that the rats were not injected at the penis, there is then a potential for discussion/argument that the experiment necessary to judge potential differing results from local vs systematic was not made. But, again, I don't really care much about this at all.

Finally, you could also argue that a rat is a rat and a human is a human so just because these results were as so with rats does not mean that they will be exactly the same with humans.

Do I expect a rat to look like Arnold if I get him a weight resistance wheel to run on and some steroids? No. rofl ;) This is a joke to make a point. I understand that you can comparatively judge ratios of difference/experimentation reults etc.

JFYI, this rat study was not the only medical exerpt that I was talking about. Granted, it may be the only one on page 1.

In response to this:

Post by negative on 3-01-05: Is there any studies with IGF-1 prove that your penis getting bigger with it.?

you posted another experpt which states:

There are a few but i'm too lazy to dig them up right now but here's one...
Quote:
Insulin-like growth factor 1, but not growth hormone, has in vitro proliferative effects on neonatal foreskin fibroblasts without affecting 5-alpha-reductase or androgen receptor activity.

Dykstra KD, Payne AM, Abdelrahim M, Francis GL.

Department of Pediatrics, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, Maryland.

Clinical observation of patients with congenital growth hormone (GH) deficiency and Laron-type dwarfism suggests that factors such as GH or insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) might in addition to androgens, be needed for normal phallic growth. We speculated GH or IGF-1 might have direct actions on genital tissues and performed the present study to evaluate the in vitro effects of GH and IGF-1 on cultured neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. ....
BLAH BLAH ....

This insinuates that you know of several studies that you have read which suggest that IGF-1 is increasing penis size whether naturally and or supplementary. The medical exerpt substantiates it.

You say:

Supra (a [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words] member) has injected IGF-1 in his penis and if i recall, he didn't experience any significant growth.

Ok. Interesting. These personal testimonials are what I am interested in for IGF, HGH, Androgel and anything else like this stuff that may cause excellerated growth.

I didn't see him make any posts in this thread or elsewhere about his experiences. I'd be interested in his comments. I have not yet searched. Maybe I will search more later, maybe you could post some of his comments that you know of from elsewhere or maybe he could post in this thread.

You say:

Alot of bobybuilders inject IGF-1 into worked muscles (for example if the pecs were worked then it was injected in the pecs) in the hopes of localized growth but the fact is that other bodybuilders experience the same level of gains from injecting subcutaneously or into the same muscle for all injections. This shows that there really isn't alot of localized effect happening.

Ok. The discussion about local vs systematic again. To reiterate:
I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made.

rofl ;)

You say:

I have tried IGH-1 but not on my penis. I have used it sub-q and IM with the same effects, leaner body and much more vascularization. I also have alot of experience in the use of anabolic steriods and have injected various flavors of test, deca, tren, and boldenone. I have also done transdermal applications of steroids and prohormones so i think i know a hell of alot more about how androjel works than you would.

Ok. Thank you very much for you imput form experience and your peronsla research. However, there is no need for you to make such statements as " i think i know a hell of alot more about how androjel works than you would". Maybe some of those drugs are influencing aggression and perception because I never meant to insinuate, have claimed or have thought that I was insulting your intelligence and or comparing/competeing with you in regards to "who knows more than the other". This is a friendly conversation for educational purposes. I thank you for your participation, sincerely. Please make sure to not take offense and or be antagonistic and aggrressive. I am analytical and I am simply learning and thinking for myself. That is why I am posting and asking questions. I am here to interact, learn, be friendly, contribute in my personal way. That is it. No need for any antagonism and or aggression towards me. I am here to discuss more than to argue (if you want to argue/discuss semantics, lol rofl ;) ).

I am ver familiar with how steroids exert their effects on the body and i know for a fact that they all work systemically. If i'm injecting 750-1,000 miligrams of test into my delts every week or rubbing 750miligrams of test to my chest and legs 2-3 times a day without any bodypart exploding into enormous proportions, i really doubt that a few miligrams rubbed on my penis will do squat.

Ok. I respect your input and realize that this is part of your rationale for your comments thus far. Still, if this is soley about the differences in local vs systematic the I reiterate:
I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made.
rofl ;)

In response to your comment:

bodybuilders would have overly large shoulders and asses since that is where they inject test and other steroids.

I responded:

The example about body builders in comparison is flawed and vague at this point, IMO. There are certainly a lot of variables to consider, as I would give you benefit of the doubt to know or atleast fathom. It is my understanding that there is quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.

and you responded:

The comparison is not flawed nor is it vague. Bodybuilders have been using transdermal applications of test and other hormones/prohormones for some time now and in all cases, the effects were systemic not localized.

1) In retrospect, it now seems to me that your primary point was to discuss local vs systematic effects. However, I don't believe that I was thinking of it like that at the time. I believe I was thinking of results only regardless of whether they were from local and or systematic application.

If I had realized that you point was primarily to discuss effects of local vs systematic then I would have simply stated:

I do not really care about whether it is local and or systematic as long as the results are made.

rofl ;)

2) In your first comment, you only mentioned injections and you did not menion transdermal application like Androgel (as you did mention in your second comment). I read the testimony of a man apparently attributing large penis gains to Androgel via application to the arms and to the penis. There was an insinuation that application directly to the penis was making a difference by the comment
He was given
>>Androgel (RX only) and was intrigued by the instructions ... they
>>indicated to NOT put it on the penis. He asked the doctor why and he
>>casually remarked ... "maybe they are afraid of enlarging it". So he
>>"broke the rules" and started using it every other day on the penis and
>>every other day on the arms or abs ... within two months he had gained an
>>inch (both erect and limp)
. Assuming that this is a legitimate testimonial then one may conclude that the affects were from local and or systematic, with special attention to the possibility of local effects since the growth was so substantial, with no other mentioned influence of something like Penis Enlargement and or [words=https://shop.mattersofsize.com/products/sizegenetics-penis-extender]extender[/words] etc in that one area in a short period of time.

Furthermore, we know that the penis is not a muscle but an area with "cavernous smooth muscle cells". Maybe there is a distinct difference in local and or systematic application in areas of the body with "cavernous smooth muscle cells" in contrast to areas of large muscle like the "shoulders and asses " as you mentioned for comparative discussion.

The fact is that they are two completely different cells. Muscle vs "cavernous smooth muscle cells". So, one may suspect that effects could certainly be different.

When you combine this with the factual variables of
quite a large selection of different steroids/supplements and even variants of one specific steroid/supplement. Then you have the immense differences in people's own body and then you have differences in appplication(where, when, frequency, quanitity, quality etc etc etc) /workout/diet etc.
that I mentioned then maybe you can understand why I said that the comparison is vague and flawed in my opinion. I can see some relevance, but it does not completely satisfy my current rationale aforementioned.

Again:

This is a friendly conversation for educational purposes. I thank you for your participation, sincerely. Please make sure to not take offense and or be antagonistic and aggrressive. I am analytical and I am simply learning and thinking for myself. That is why I am posting and asking questions. I am here to interact, learn, be friendly, contribute in my personal way. That is it. No need for any antagonism and or aggression towards me. I am here to discuss more than to argue (if you want to argue/discuss semantics, lol rofl ;) ).

Thanks! rofl
 
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