Interesting Conversation on Ligament Stretching

This is a post that is taking place on another board, I would like to hear the MOS perspective on it also. Here is the topic (Copied and pasted from T's):

POST A: Surely it's not the actual ligs stretching that causes any erect gains.

Surely it is gains from the tunica, or shaft or whatever that cause the ligs to stretch as a bi-product.

I fail to understand how stretching the ligs would allow more penis to be 'expressed' during an erection.

I have come to this conclusion from studying Modesto's model, and from my own observations from my own Penis Enlargement.

POST B: I agree with you totally. When penis lengthening surgery is carried out by cutting ligs, gains are only made in the flacid state, none erect. Why would there be any difference if you stretched instead of cut ligs?

In most guys, there are actually three portions of shaft that make up the entire erection:

The bulbs of the root to the bottom of the pubic bone.

The bottom of the pubic bone up the face of the pubic bone then exiting the skin.

The exit point to the tip.

All of these areas may express gains through Penis Enlargement. Stretching the ligs to express gains through Penis Enlargement come in the middle part, from the bottom of the pubic bone to the exit point. As the ligs are stretched, pulling the shaft down and out, this portion is expressed as new outer penis.

The only guys who cannot realize gains from this portion are those whose exit point is already close to the bottom of the pubic bone, a very low LOT.

With any guy, gains can be made by stretching the tunica in all three areas, as long as the proper stretching angles are used. If a guy has high tight ligs, some lig stretching at the lower angles may have to occur in order for the stress of stretching at the higher angles to reach the inner penis.

When some of the portion behind the pubic bone is stretched/grown, then more lig stretch may express more of that portion as outer penis. See-saw effect.

Bigger

I agree with Bib except with one caveat. When you stretch your legs, arms, or any other body part, you will gain flexibility over time (lengthening of ligs and connective tissues). After a year or so of doing no stretching, you will lose a lot of flexibility.

I have taken a long break (3-4 months) from length excercises (only been doing girth) and so far and have lost a tiny bit of length which by sight alone appears to be my ligs only.

I don't think ligament gains are permanent unless you excercise a maintenance routine (akin to a gymnast stretching everyday). As for tunica gains and the bulb as Bib points out, those should be more or less permanent as it is likely some form of hyperplasia occurs during cell turnover as old cells die and new cells replace them (and in the case of gaps between cells perhaps additional cells are added, just as additional fat cells are added to your body when your existing fat cells can't store any more fat).

Most newbie gains are likely from ligament stretching and the real permanent gains you don't get until later on because it just takes a while for the smooth muscle tissue gains to catch up. I am about to quit doing girth and go back to length only for 3-4 months so I guess I will see how fast my newbie gains (relengthening of my lost ligament gains) show up.

One thing I will say is there was a report on elderly people about damage to muscle tissue and other tissues and how frequent people excercise. The basic synopsis was that scientists have found that a lot of damage (tears) are done to tissues if you are sedentary and this has a bit to do with delayed onset muscle soreness (prior many people thought this was just the nervous system being damaged and not the actual tissue). After about 8 weeks, very little damage was done to tissue via excercise.

Now, with respect to Penis Enlargement, you want the inverse relationship. You want as many microtears as you can get (of course not to the extreme that you start building up a lot of internal scar tissue), otherwise you are just spinning your wheels and not getting good gains because your tissues are adapted to the Penis Enlargement excercises. So, even though muscle tissue is much more different than penile tissue, perhaps it would be wise to only do length work 3 weeks out of a month so as to prevent your tissues from being conditioned too fast. In other words, you do Penis Enlargement consistently for 21 days straight then do 7 days of rest (this is assuming you are not already a Penis Enlargement veteran). This is just some random numbers I am throwing out, but like a lot of Penis Enlargement veterans already know, unlike a lot of other things in life, gains get harder and harder over time.

Just a theory in light of recent research I read about.

MCTFB said:

I agree with Bib except with one caveat. When you stretch your legs, arms, or any other body part, you will gain flexibility over time (lengthening of ligs and connective tissues). After a year or so of doing no stretching, you will lose a lot of flexibility...

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But when stretching other bodyparts like legs and such, most of the stretching is occurring at the muscle and not the ligs. Yes there is some lig stretching happening, but very little when comapred to the muscle. The muscles are much more pliable when compared to collagenous tissues. I believe that gains from stretched ligs are permanet since they are aren't very elastic so once they've been expanded they will tend to stay that way, but gains from stretching muscles are not. I've taken months off from Penis Enlargement without losing any of my gains.

When stretching the penis, since the majority of the stretch is focussed on collagenous tissues (ligs and tunica), i can't agree with you.

Modesto's model....Hmm...DLD's still a member, although discrete, of �other forum� Place. Hehehe...2+2 is too easy DLD, should have deleted Modesto's name. Post A is Ziggaman, Post B is joey55. Your secret is safe with me.

DLD wasn't trying to be sneaky... he stated in his post that he copied it from T's.

Hmm, righ righ...Didn't see that...But he still found a way around the ban...Nice...

I always thought there was a lot to this subject, now I know. It can all be a bit confusing to a newbie like me but I think its slowly sinking in.

sikdogg said:

DLD wasn't trying to be sneaky... he stated in his post that he copied it from T's.

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Thank you

Anyway, awesome replies so far, I knew this would be a great topic. I am too tired to post with much intelligence now but I will in the Massachusetts morning.

Alrdybig dont start sturring the shit.
DLD said clearly he got it from T's and that doesnt take someone with even half a brain to workout the T stands for �other forum�.
Also he has freinds at many pe forums, how do you know one of them hasnt told him about this topic?
Its dangerous to make accusations and assume things, you've already make a thread here recently asking why are threads deleted, which they aren't.

Now lets get back onto topic.

From what I have experienced first hand in regards to Lig stretch and lengthening is that as the ligs get longer the CC and the tunica become more pliable, and more suscebtible to lengthening. I state it this way because after a good stretching session straight down or hanging straight down my tunic receives nearly all of the tension when I change to higher angles, and I can see the stretching of the tunica under the skin, and feel it pulling from the base. If I start off at higher angles I don't feel this stretch as much as after working the ligs first.

I have no idea what the status is of modesto's model at this time. But I can give you the history from my perspective:

Started a few weeks ago, with modesto sending me the first draft, and telling me he was attempting to form a model that would EXPLAIN the LOT theory. Then on the 25th, he emails me with the post he made at �other forum� where he attempts to PROVE or DISPROVE the various points of the LOT theory. Two completely different standards. His last model that he sent me came nowhere close to being something that simulated the actual biology. I do not know what he has currently.

I suppose the first problem with the model, but not the greatest problem, is that he does not use a biological model, but rather a scarecrow that he patched together. I recommended using a Gray's anatomy drawing, that I will attempt to post here.

The greatest problem with his model is that he only considers two straight lines for the inner penis and outer penis. For purposes of LOT, there are actually three portions, two straight, and one curved.

For the portion from the bulbs, anchor points, to the bottom of the pubic bone can be straight. The length here does not matter.

The portion from the bottom of the pubic bone to the exit point of the skin along the face of the pubic bone is curved. Therefore, it is required that the line of force of the kegal be a tangent off of the curve of the pubic bone, for most guys.

The last portion is a straight line, from the exit point to the tip, the outer penis.

His direction of kegal force is from the bulbs of the penis, to the lig attachment point, usually passing THROUGH the pubic bone. Completely the wrong angle.

In the true physiology, the direction of kegal force is from underneath the bottom of the pubic bone, and then for the vast majority of cases, up the front face of the pubic bone. The only time his model has even a slight chance of being correct is when a guy's exit point is at the very bottom of the pubic bone. This group of guy's probably only includes a few ���� stars.

So, what does this mean mathematically? His direction of kegal force is only a few degrees, up to about 45 degrees from horizontal. The true physiology shows that the direction of kegal force can be from slightly below horizontal, to true vertical, and possibly beyond. The range of kegal force should be at least 90 degrees, and possibly more. This is why he did not come up with the true conclusions concerning the LOT theory.

The order of the drawings got screwed up. I will try to get this right:

In the third Gray's drawing, it shows some examples of the direction of kegal force coming off of the pubic bone.

The second Gray's drawing shows his possible directions of kegal force.

The first Gray's drawing shows an example, using the Gray's model, of how his model COULD work.

Notice the Gray's model has a low LOT. The shaft exits under the pubic bone, but does not follow the pubic bone up at all. This is because, as you can see, the ligs are long and loose enough in the drawing.

There is a good bit of other stuff concerning this topic, but those points would at least get the model in the ballpark. A very large ballpark.

As I explained to modesto many times, it is terribly hard to address a mathematical model to biology or physiology. There are simply too many variables that have to be addressed. But he did not heed my warnings, and instead posted something horribly inadequate.

Further, I GAVE him the answers, and he ignored them.

Bigger

Concerning the labeled example drawing, the first drawing:

The lig/pubic bone attachment point determines the significant point of the tangent off of the curve of the pubic bone. It shows the physiological, maximum POSSIBLE path of the kegal force, before lig length is introduced. That line determines the top line of the triangle.

The shaft line is the actual shaft line, and it's angle could be determined, or controlled, as in the true physiology, by the length of the lig line, conforming to modesto's model.

The lig line, which should be the SIGNIFICANT lig line, can only be a wild ass guess (WAG). There are MANY lig strands, bundles which have the ability to control LOT at any one time. In comparing LOT between different guy's, or comparing LOT in a single individual at different point in his Penis Enlargement career, different strands of ligaments will control the actual LOT. This is another failure of the math to attempt to explain the theory. The math must have a defined line, which, while a defined line does occur, pinpointing it is IMPOSSIBLE.

I am sure that is all clear as mud.

Bigger

My man Zulu.....

REDZULU2003 said:

DLD said clearly he got it from T's and that doesnt take someone with even half a brain to workout the T stands for �other forum�.

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And I suppose you didnt read where I replied "Didn't see that". Can't get much clearer than that buddy.

REDZULU2003 said:

Also he has freinds at many pe forums, how do you know one of them hasnt told him about this topic?

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Again, I'll answer you with what I'VE ALREADY SAID: "But he still found a way around the ban...Nice". That "way around the ban" INCLUDES getting the info from a friend at T's.

REDZULU2003 said:

you've already make a thread here recently asking why are threads deleted, which they aren't.

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9Cyclops9 answered and told me that threads with dead links are removed. Makes sense since yousendit.com deleted files uploaded to its servers 7 days after they are uploaded. 9Cyclops answered respectfully, and you did not, which is why I did not respond to that thread. Dude, that is all. Don't disrespect me, I won't disrespect you.

Now, let's get back on topic.

Yes sir :s now get it back onto topic

Bib, you explain everything so clearly and well.
Who is this Modesto?

Modestoman is a mod at T's who appears to be trying to disprove Bib's LOT Theory. He created a LOT simulator to prove/disprove Bib's LOT Theory but his agenda is more set to disprove than to actually prove. I've yet to actually see his simulator... i only have access to the public forum so i don't have access to it.

http://www.thundersplace.org/forum/en/showthread.php?t=47457

POST B: I agree with you totally. When penis lengthening surgery is carried out by cutting ligs, gains are only made in the flacid state, none erect. Why would there be any difference if you stretched instead of cut ligs?

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This is true immediately after surgury, but from my research on phalloplasty you must use some type of traction device to make erect gains. I think this is in line with Bib's theory. My understanding of LOT Theory is that you stretch the ligs to allow you to pull out and expose the inner penis. Just cutting the ligs won't expose the inner penis, you must still pull it out through some external means (hanging or manual stretching). The cut ligs should theoretically make it easier to pull out the inner penis, it won't just automatically come out.

I checked out the different threads over at thunder's trying to figure out what in the world modesto is trying to prove. It makes no sense. Why are they trying to prove the LOT theory to be incorrect??? The LOT theory makes plenty of sense and has helped many to determine whether or not to do tunica focused or lig focused exercises, helping them to achieve a longer penis. So what is the point of their babbling??? I find it quite interesting as well that once someone speaks out on something others jump in and say me too, although I'm not saying it is exclusive to T's place, see our ring of power and the ROP is BS threads for reference to riding a bandwagon.

I understand the LOT theory and it is anatomically sound. I'm a bit loss as to why they wish to disprove the theory? I don't feel it is law, but it has parameters and guidelines which could be and are tested as we attempt to grow our penises as it is helping to govern our exercise choices. Again why try to disprove a functional theory??? Unless they can derive something that will supercede the lot theory and make Penis Enlargement easier.

Bib said:

As I explained to modesto many times, it is terribly hard to address a mathematical model to biology or physiology. There are simply too many variables that have to be addressed.

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Wow, I am very impressed your thoughts on this Bib, I would love to illustrate your ideas. Getting these ideas into a working graphical model would be a huge contribution to the Penis Enlargement world. Before Penis Enlargement I was a graphic illustrator and between that and the help of Bryce I think we could create a working, animated model that could be mathematically accurate.

Alrdybig said:

Modesto's model....Hmm...DLD's still a member, although discrete, of �other forum� Place. Hehehe...2+2 is too easy DLD, should have deleted Modesto's name. Post A is Ziggaman, Post B is joey55. Your secret is safe with me.

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I make no secrets of my involvement with the Penis Enlargement world. On top of spending countless hours at MoS I spend time on every Penis Enlargement forum. Even though I am an ex-member at Thundersplace, and I think the guy is full of shit, I still enjoy reading some of the threads there...just because he is an idiot it does not mean his members are. There are some very intelligent, talented people on all of the Penis Enlargement forums and I learn from all of them.