^^ Agreed on both.

Sust? Eh. I prefer one ester....

8 on 8 off? Eh. Sust is mostly medium to long esters. By week8, you have just hit the first few weeks of peak levels.

But yeah, either test derived, 19nor(test), DHT (dihydroTEST) :)

Steroids are the devil! I Heard they make your penis shrink! lol ;)
 
thegear;330689 said:
I use some of the same arugments in defense of steroids lol, almost word for word.

But Sust 250? Its a good starter but there are MUCH better steroids when you know how to put together a decent cycle


To each their own. I've used Test E, and C so far..as well as Sust. I get no additional bloat, or water retention with Sust. With E/C I do. Sust for me, kicks in and I start seeing strength increases within a couple weeks. With E/C it takes a month at the least. Sust costs the same ML to ML. (If you know where to shop ;) ) I like my cycles, simple, and short. Less time on, less time to recover. The prop (two types in sust) is active nearly immediately. I like using a compound with two types of propionate, testosterone isocaproate, and some deca all together in one. I also get less acne from Sust. Back to the simple part. I also like not having to use more than one compound to do PCT. Nor, do I need to have things "on hand, just in case" during my cycles. Why?? I'm only running one compound, and at moderate doses, and keeping eating, and lifting the priority.

I'm not lashing out at anyone, or anything like that. I'm just stating my opinions based on personal, real world experience so far. Too many arm chair commando type steroid users out there who have no real world experience. You get that a lot in the internet anyway. LOL doesn't seem to matter what type of forum you are on. SOMEONE knows more than you do because they SAY SO. ;)
 
^^^ Prop and PP are 2 different esters with 2 different half lives..about 3 and 4.5

Not sure what you mean by "2 different types of prop"
 
I am 39 yoa and am considering trying out dbol as a stand alone. I know alot of people say dbol by itself is a complete waste of time...but I am an experienced lifter (been to amateur level back in 1990) and also blessed with great genes for bodybuilding, I am a very easy gainer. I am light boned with lots of muscle (5'11" and 185lbs) No problems with carrying fat or water.

I am not planning on building a comp level physique, just want to see what dbol will do for me at a dosage of around 25-40max mg/day for 6 weeks.

I have a guy who is trying to hook me up and I don't know as yet what brand and cost. Can anyone tell my what a fair price on dbol would be.
 
my best stack has been sust, tren a, and anadrol. i went from 175lbs up to 205lbs in about 4.5 weeks, but whatever u decide to take always use test as a base for any stack
 
Epajjs06;326005 said:
Anyone have any steroids that they recommend? I'm talking about ones that give satisfactory results with minimal side affects. Anyone wanna share their experiences?


A little food for thought.

Anabolic Steroids -- Part II
By G. Douglas Andersen, DC, DACBSP, CCN

The earliest study I found of steroids and muscular hypertrophy was in 1938.1 As I continued my literature review on steroids, I found that historians tend to disagree on exactly when anabolic steroids were used for athletics; however, most of the evidence points to the Russians using testosterone and its derivatives in the early 1950s, with the Americans starting either in the mid or late 1950s, depending on the source. Throughout the 1960s, steroids were generally used by strength athletes, such as power lifters, Olympic lifters, and body builders. Steroid use spread to field athletes in the mid and late 1960s. By the early 1970s, most world class track and field athletes that needed strength or explosiveness were using steroids. Strength athletes in other sports such as football also discovered steroids in the early 1970s. By the end of the decade, football players at all levels were using anabolic steroids and, as more and more coaches realized the importance of strength and explosiveness in their various sports, athletes in what would be considered non-traditional steroid sports begin to use steroids. Interestingly enough, the steroid use coincided with the decline of the myth that "muscle-bound" athletes were not able to perform well.
Graham and Kennedy estimate anabolic steroid use in the United States of at least one million.2

Side Effects of Steroids2

The following is a list of the major negative effects associated with the use of anabolic steroids:

1. Hepatic
Peliosis hepatitis*
Hepatoma*
Cholestatic jaundice
Elevated liver function tests

2. Cardiovascular
Hypertension
Decreased HDL cholesterol
Increased LDL cholesterol
Increased triglycerides
Atherosclerotic heart disease
Cardiomyopathy
Cerebrovascular accident

3. Skeletal
Premature epiphyseal closure*

4. Immune
Reduced immunoglobulin levels
Altered natural killer function

5. Endocrine
Male -- testicular atrophy, decreased sperm count, gynecomastia, decreased testosterone, decreased LH, decreased FSH, altered glucose tolerance, hyperinsulinism.

Women -- Hoarsening of the voice, enlarged clitoris*, menstrual irregularities, decreased breast size, male pattern baldness,* fetal abnormalities.

6. Dermatology4
Cystic acne
Comedones
Sebaceous cysts
Alopecia
Hirsutism*
Striae distensae
Seborrhea
Rosacea

7. Physiological
Euphoria
Aggressiveness
Marked libido changes
Mood swings

8. Subjective
Mood changes
Aggressiveness
Changes in libido
Muscle spasm
Muscle aches
Headaches
Nervousness
Tension
Dizziness
Nausea
Euphoria
Rashes
Urethritis
Scrotal pain
Increased urine output

*Considered an irreversible side effect5

The above list is both exhaustive and frightening. According to Dr. Phillips, the most common side effects of steroid use are the following:6

Sodium retention, high blood pressure, headaches
Acne
Gynecomastia
Aggression

Blood lipid changes (increased LDL, decreased HDL, and increase in total cholesterol) Palpitations

We will now discuss some of the side effects that receive the greatest amount of media attention.

Hepatic side Effects

Peliosis hepatitis is a disease of cattle caused by contaminated grass. There is not a single case of this occurring in an athlete taking anabolic steroids. There are cases of people contracting this disease who took anabolic steroids for hematological disorders.2 Again, according to Drs. Graham and Kennedy,2 steroid-induced hepatomas occur within those who have primary hematological disorders. They further state there have only been three cases in the literature of hepatoma in the athletes, and there was no record of the athletes hematological status. Furthermore, Dr. Phillips states that two of the athletes used high doses of oral steroids for four consecutive years. Even proponents of steroid use state that steroids should be used no more than 12 weeks at a time, and that athletes should refrain from using steroids for at least as long as they used them before they start another cycle.6 I found it interesting that jaundice and cholestasis are surprisingly uncommon and no specific clinical hepatic syndrome has ever been demonstrated in athletes abusing anabolic steroids.2

It is not uncommon for an athlete who is training heavily to have increases in SGOT and SGPT. To correctly monitor an athlete's liver function, one should order the isoenzymes of lactin dehydrogenase and alkaline phosphatase, which are liver specific.5

Teenage Use

Clearly, epiphyseal closure is a very serious side effect of anabolic steroids and all doctors should urge teenagers, especially young teens, to discontinue steroid use. This can be accomplished much easier than in adult athletes. Making coaches and parents aware of the problem increases your chances of attaining a complete and total cessation of teen steroid use.

Acne is another common side effect of anabolic steroids. Most teens have more than enough pilosebaceous gland activity. Administration of anabolic steroids increases already overactive structures. The bottom line is to emphasize to your teenagers that when they take steroids, they should expect to see a pronounced increase in acne.

Cardiovascular Side Effects

It is very clear that steroids have marked cardiovascular effects. Although cholesterol alterations are reversible with cessation, it is nevertheless clear from my literature review that this is a major risk factor of anabolic steroid ingestion and must be aggressively supported nutritionally in those athletes who continue to ingest anabolic steroids. When anabolic steroid use stops, the athletes must maintain a moderate aerobic exercise program coupled with a diet low in fat (20 percent of the calories) and maintain physician contact with follow-up laboratory analysis.

Females Steroid Use

Steroids in women is an area where I recommend you really emphasize to your patients the defeminizing effects that may occur with the use of male hormones. Make it clear that a high percentage of the irreversible side effects of steroid use occur in the female athlete.

Connective Tissue Side Effects

In my research, I was unable to come across what I feel is one of the most common negative effects of anabolic steroid use, and that is post cycle injury to connective tissue. I did find a few reviews on steroid-induced tendon and muscle rupture; however, these injuries are very rare. What is common are sprains, strains, bursitis, tendinitis, and capsulitis injuries in athletes who have recently discontinued steroid use. Anyone who has spent time in a serious lifting gym has heard, "I don't get injured when I'm on the juice," or "Every time I stop I get injured." Steroid users rationalize that they should just continue with anabolic steroids, adding additional types or changing types so they will not get injured. Therefore, in addition to nutritional support, when doctors do succeed in having athletes discontinue steroid use, they must emphasize that the athlete is at a higher risk for injury6 and implement a "safe" workout for six weeks following steroid cessation. Generally, two to four weeks after ingestion of steroids is discontinued, connective tissue injuries tend to occur. Steroids cause muscles to hypertrophy faster than supporting ligamentous and tendinous structures. When the steroid use stops, testosterone levels plummet because the body's negative feedback system shuts its own production down when steroid ingestion begins. Therefore, there is a rebound period with low testosterone levels. This equates to a decreased nitrogen balance, decreased protein synthesis, and decreased intramuscular fluid retention. Add to this heavy muscular loads to tissues that are no longer supercharged with pharmacological androgens, and the result is injury.

Safe Workout


Lighten the amount of weight lifted.


Increase the amount of repetitions.


Emphasize the importance of strict form on every exercise, whether free weight or machine.


Decrease total sets.


Increase rest periods (that is, four instead of six lifting sessions per week).

By decreasing the amount of weight used and increasing repetitions, less load is placed on connective tissue that is susceptible to injury. At the same time, this workout provides greater circulation to these vulnerable areas, which will not only guard against injury, but will maintain the majority of the additional muscular tissue the athlete gains while on synthetic testosterone derivatives. Remember, although you have recommended lighter weights, higher repetitions, better form, and more rest, this does not mean that your athlete has to decrease intensity.
Nutritional Support for Steroid Cessation:


Decrease the amount of dietary protein to l gm for each l.5 to 1.75 pounds of body weight (athletes who use anabolic steroids must ingest excessively high amounts of protein in order for the steroids to have the desired effect; however, when steroid ingestion stops, the high amount of protein then works as a disadvantage to the athlete by disrupting intramuscular osmotic balances, which will result in overtraining and increased injury.)


Add 32 ounces of additional fluid per day.


Increase vitamin C to a minimum of two grams per day.


Increase zinc to a minimum of 50 mg per day.


Manganese sulfate, chondroitin sulfate, perna canaliculus or mucopolysaccharides should be ingested at a level of 100-150 mg per day.


A strong multivitamin, multimineral formula.

I recommend the athlete ingest these levels of micronutrients for six weeks. After that they should continue with a good strong multivitamin, multimineral formula.
References


Panicolaou HN, and Falk GA: General muscular hypertrophy induced by androgenic hormones. Science, 87:238-239, 1938.


Graham S, Kennedy M: Recent developments in the toxicology of anabolic steroids. Drug Safety, 5(6):458-476, 1990.


Kibble WM, Ross MB: Adverse affects of anabolic steroids in athletes. Clinical Pharmacology, 6:686-692, 1987.


Scott MJ Jr., Scott MJ III: Dermatology and anabolic androgenic drug. Reprint request to 533 Medical Dental Building, Seattle WA., 98101.


Hough. Anabolic steroids and ergogenic aids. American Family Practice, 1157-1164, April 1990.


Phillips WN: The Anabolic Reference Guide, ed 16. Mile High Publishing, Golden Colorado. 1991.

G. Douglas Andersen, D.C.
Brea, California
 
I vote for Sustanon-250 - recommended dose for first time user would be 500ml every 10 days for one month. This will stay in you a good 6 weeks and will be a safe and beneficial cycle.
 
airshy;333080 said:
I vote for Sustanon-250 - recommended dose for first time user would be 500ml every 10 days for one month. This will stay in you a good 6 weeks and will be a safe and beneficial cycle.
Every 10 days is a rookie mistake.... Yea it will work but it's no where near optimal.

Yes sust contains long ester test so some will be in your system for a while but by day 10, you have run out all the short ester test. What happens is that the first few days, your test levels are very high and by the 10th day, they will be very low. This will just give you more sides and make your mood less stable. The best protocol for any gear is one that will keep your blood levels level with minimal peaks and valleys... this will keep sides down and maximize your gains. The simplest way of keeping blood levels constant is to inject at half the half-life of the shortest gear your using. In the case of sust, the shortest half-life is 3 days from the prop. Injecting sust EOD is the best course and will yield the best gains. Will it work if injected every 10 days?? Yes but it's not optimal.
 
No it is not optimal but for people starting out it will work just fine. It was made so people can have somewhat stable testosterone rates without having to inject more frequently.
 
Steroids are alright for quick boosts and stuff like that. I'm not a BB so its different and play rugby on the wing and centre. I'm over 185lbs now which is much larger than in my past pix. I'm also VERY strong for my build. Steroids have helped when I needed to blast past a sticky point but they are not needed. I just wanted to try them and think they are useful if not abused. Dianabol is good for starters and is taken orally. It does not increase testosterone levels but increases protein and glycogen synthesis in the body which helps increase mass. I find them very useful taken now and again after workouts to build up the recovery process and use 20mg for that purpose as a supplement, to increase protein synthesis. Sustanon-250 is really good starter for strength and bulk, not harsh either. Winstrol is cool for strength and not getting bulky .. usually used when cutting and getting lean with something like maybe clenbuterol. I wouldnt advise using trenbolone but people do. Many juice around for everyone. Read as much as you can from the trusted TRUSTED boards from the GUYS WHO KNOW what they are talkign about and not gym rats. Anthony Roberts knows his stuff, search him on Google. Lastly, its the PCT after your main cycle that keeps what you did on the main one. Many forget that and hence why they shrink. PCT is key. I have used Nolvadex, Clomid, HCG, Exemestane [Aromasin], Clenbuterol [For its cortisol reducing qualities] after my cycles to increase the bodies natural test again while keeping the estrogen and cortisol at bay.
 
Im thinking about cycling for the first time. I have been lifting for about two years now and have set a a pretty good frame for myself. Wat im looking toget out of this cylce would be a bulked look. The two anabolics I am looking at are Sustanon as well as Danabol. At this point Im leaning towards Danabol as It is more of a beginners roid and from wat ive read really does not boost Test. But helps with protein Syntheis. Im going to to do some more reading about sust.
Another question I have is can Nolvadex be used as a stand alone anabolic? Anyone ever done this?
One more question. You guys who have cycled what did you do to avoid emotional issues such as depression or mood swings? If there is anything you can do?
 
Alot of people choose Sust to start with but if you can afford/find it Primo is great.
 
Sust has alot of side affects so im thinking anadrol or winstrol if i can find them mostly because the side effects are so low
 
boobyman;335151 said:
Im thinking about cycling for the first time. I have been lifting for about two years now and have set a a pretty good frame for myself. Wat im looking toget out of this cylce would be a bulked look. The two anabolics I am looking at are Sustanon as well as Danabol. At this point Im leaning towards Danabol as It is more of a beginners roid and from wat ive read really does not boost Test. But helps with protein Syntheis. Im going to to do some more reading about sust.
Another question I have is can Nolvadex be used as a stand alone anabolic? Anyone ever done this?
One more question. You guys who have cycled what did you do to avoid emotional issues such as depression or mood swings? If there is anything you can do?

* Dbol is good for starters and increases protein synthesis and anaerobic glycolysis but not testosterone.

* Sustanon is a very good one and increases testosterone but users can get sides. These sides are nowhere near as bad like some say. Dont use a massive dosage like the dickheads on most BB forums say you should! You dont need all that crap unless you want to look all pumped up and than loose it all. I have used 300mg eachweek and 150mg eachweek .. did fine with both but had much less bloat on the lower. Its bloat you need to watch for with sust.

* Some users have took Nolvadex on its own without juice and used it as a 'smartie' but you wont see many talkking about it or saying do it either. I'll let you in on a 'secret'. A mate of mine who is a fireman and built big has never took the juice and you can trust him, but he swears by useing nolva, clomid and HCG. I do not know how he cycles them and this is key here and how often, how much he takes but he gains okay. Not saying like 30lbs or anything but he does okay. It makes sense because Nolva increases the bodies own natural production of testosterone and isnt introducing a synthetic varient of it into the body so hence you wont get negative crap from it, unless you abuse it like anything.

* The mood and emotion issues. I think this much depends on the type of person you are. You'll hear guys say that the juice WILL NOT make you aggressive! LMAO it will make you more aggressive if your that way inclined, such as a bad boy or nasty person or simply under stress at the moment and snappy than it could fan the flames more than if you were not on it. If your very placcid than its highly unlikely it will make you turn into the late Chris Benoit who was naturally aggressive anyway and did what he did in my eyes because he was suffering from various problems at the time which were multiplyed with his intake of steorids, which in turn made him a T-rex when he would have not lost it. I have first hand accouns of guys in mental units who've been like that here in the UK. Thats all I'm saying on that, data protection act and all.

Take it easy mate and dont take massive dosages. Less is MORE with this stuff and you will avoid the nasty sides.

Stock up on clomid, nolvadex and hcg for your post cycle but also if you need the two former during the main cycle for beating away unwanted sides.

Try to keep well clear of alcohol and other drugs which will interact with all this.

If you need further help pm me or ask here.
 
boobyman;335154 said:
Sust has alot of side affects so im thinking anadrol or winstrol if i can find them mostly because the side effects are so low

:O Dont know where you got that from about abol being low on sides. Its one of the most powerful orals you can take and will kill your liver if took in too high amount and for too long.

I've not took it but read on it and guys who took it like the stuff with great strength gains which equal more mass when you lift smart but dont go mad with them as its POWERFUL shit, more powerful than dbol.

Just relax with it and dont go mad and you will see hardly any sides.

Winstrol is awesome for strength and when your on a cutting cycle such as near competition. This is usually taken after a bulk session and not with a bulking 'roid like abol\dbol so dont take them together.

I would either take the dbol\abol or the sustanon. You could even go one better and do the abol or dbol with sustanon together as they both will compliement eachothe with the dbol\abol kick starting gains and than as week 3-4 starts the sustanon takes over and when week 5 comes the dbol\abol has gone [weeks are estimations in my head so dont take them as gospel at this point buddy].

Sustanon as you know can be done simply on its own with good results too.

DO NOT take dbol & abol together .. this is liver kill, which reminds me .. stock up on some milk thistle and dessicated liver tablets. Milk tistle is cheap in powder form and is GREAT at keeping you detox and after drinking booze, getting you to sober and will prevent your liver from damage. Studies show its helped heal damaged livers in alcohol users.

The dessicated liver is an all round good supplement and also detox agent.

Goodluck
 
Ok so its either The sust. of the d-bol, im guessing d-bol is going to give me the least side affects am i correct on that? So I should be taking a PCT like nolvadex during my cycle as well as after im guessing to help prevent gyno. or bitch tits and other side affects.
 
At least use a replacement dose of testosterone (sust)

replacement would be 150mg or so a week. I would go with 250-300 a week of sust and 30mg dbol. A very conservative first cycle.
 
its hard to get anything in australia.

i have trouble putting on weight at all, doesnt matter how much i eat or how much i lift i go nowhere. thinking of going to the doctor this week to get hormones tested out and talk about any solutions they might have there?

either way i'm at least 20lbs underweight and ive seen multiple dieticians and tried every weight gaining shake and gym in existance, surely the doctor can recognise there is something not entirely right about my body haha.
 
Maybe you have thyroid problems, it might be overactive and needs slowing down.
Ask them to check your thyroid aswell. Most guys who are skinny do have fast metabolisms which is due to the thyroid but as you age it does slow down naturally and hence why we pick fat up easily when we're older.

I wouldnt say steroids were the answer here but maybe peptides and thats where IGF and HGH fall into but they arent the answer either.

I know a few skinny guys who decided to buy blackmarket GHRP-6 which again is a peptide and works by sending messages to the brain to make more growth hormones and they packed on loads of weight.

More info on that here

I would mention to them though about thyroid and also your growth hormone levels becasue I think they are more to blame than testosterone, but dont take my word for this or anyting in relation as I aint a doctor.
 
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