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REDZULU2003;432686 said:
Summary of the book below
Sorry to Say, but Taller Guys Have It Hard In the Weight Room..
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Summary of the book below
REDZULU2003;432710 said:
Link me to a few of these "100" studies?
If eating a small meal consisting of low glycemic carbs/protein 30-60minutes before a workout is considered "supplementation" than it all depends on the trainee.
Some people train better in a fasted/semi-fasted state while others train better in a fed state.
So, is it safe to say, that you think by downing a protein shake mixed with simple carbs right after your workout is going to keep you in an anabolic state longer?
I suggest you read some of the studies in post #57.
Explain to me what supplementation is critical or necessary before a workout because I can't think of any.
Going to research the authors now.
Oh, BTW:
Hierarchy of Importance
When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.
The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing
* The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
* The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
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Why are you so concerned 
seriously you have the time? You also have the wrong end of the stick with this! Nutritional timing deals with before, during and after a workout. Borrow the book and read it. I'm not even talking about diets or meals. Supplementation such as the correct ratio of protein and carbs etc.
Its not complicated. If it was going to cause this much trouble for you I wouldnt have posted it
seriously you have the time? You also have the wrong end of the stick with this! Nutritional timing deals with before, during and after a workout. Borrow the book and read it. I'm not even talking about diets or meals. Supplementation such as the correct ratio of protein and carbs etc.Its not complicated. If it was going to cause this much trouble for you I wouldnt have posted it
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Have you read anything on the book?
If you have problems with the book than contact the authors not me. I aint a physiologist or Biochemist.
If you have problems with the book than contact the authors not me. I aint a physiologist or Biochemist.
REDZULU2003;432819 said:Why are you so concerned
Because spreading myths around is not cool.
Explain to me how you can have the 'correct nutrient timing' without eating a meal? This makes zero sense.
Uh?...How is a ratio of protein/carbs considered supplementation?
Its not complicated. If it was going to cause this much trouble for you I wouldnt have posted it
I was unaware trying to have a discussion backed up by facts equates to 'causing trouble'.
I love how apparently, 'I have the wrong end of the stick', but you haven't said one thing regarding nutrient timing besides, 'Read this book!'.
'Finished my workout bruz, let’s go smash down this shake ASAP to make the most of the anabolic window'. loool.
http://vonsfitnesstips.com/food-diet/the-truth-about-meal-frequency-and-nutrient-timing/
Hitting your macros for the day is all you need to accomplish.
To add, the only "timing" I believe in is carb timing which has ZERO to do with nutrient timing.
Edit: I don't have a problem with the authors of the book because Ivy was the main contributor to this study/finding > http://www.worldclassbodybuilding.c...rowth-fat-loss-and-workout-performance-20355/
I have a problem with you believing and spreading a myth.
I also love how you avoid my questions and my general statements.
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LOL. I'm full of questions. So here it is. Is the Bent-over Barbell Row better than the smith Machine bent-over barbell row? Also, this week I've been with a friend and exercising with him, also another friend wanted me to workout with him at his gym. So that's 4 days in a row of exercising in all. Is this bad? My 2 day in a row probably isn't considered an exercise day, because of the cardio and bodyweight exercises. Because I don't wanna' lose any muscle.
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keepingitbig;432828 said:
I thought you didn't like machines and enjoyed the original way of bodybuilding?
It doesn't matter which you do, it's the same however, I don't understand how you can have the correct form using a Smith Machine? Also, if someone needs the Smith Machine are you're doing bent over BB rows you might look sili.
With all that said, stick with BB Rows.
Exercise == exercise. It doesn't matter if it's bodyweight or weighted. You're looking into this too much bro. You'll be fine, I doubt you're lifting hard enough to lift four days straight anyways. However, If you start to have any of these symptoms, overtaining might be the cause: persistent muscle soreness, elevated resting heart rate, increased susceptibility to infections, increased incidence of injuries, irritability, depression, loss of motivation, and loss of appetite.
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I feel for Keepingitbig because the thread has been hijacked to hell and back apologies mate.
Shroom again I will say that I was posting a book that has helped me out. I merely posted it here for others so how is that
If it was a myth why is it guys consume shakes around workouts? I think your on the issue of diets in general? if so than I'm not, I'm just talking about the time around a workout.
apologies mate.Shroom again I will say that I was posting a book that has helped me out. I merely posted it here for others so how is that
what fucking myth?
If it was a myth why is it guys consume shakes around workouts? I think your on the issue of diets in general? if so than I'm not, I'm just talking about the time around a workout.
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Two threads from bodybuilding.com that explain Nutrient Timing well
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi54.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi57.htm
Pay attention to the ENERGY, ANABOLIC and GROWTH phases. How is this a myth? its backed up by study fact. Are you a more traditional nutritionist or something? that's fine and I'm not knocking anyone's diet or approach at all but quoting a book and system that has worked well for me and many others as well.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi54.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi57.htm
Pay attention to the ENERGY, ANABOLIC and GROWTH phases. How is this a myth? its backed up by study fact. Are you a more traditional nutritionist or something? that's fine and I'm not knocking anyone's diet or approach at all but quoting a book and system that has worked well for me and many others as well.
Sorry for the delayed response, but I went out drinking last night for the first time in a few months.
First of all, those are articles, not threads. If you ask ANYONE who frequents the BodyBuilding.com forums/website, you would know that those articles are not reviewed for accuracy and can be extremely misleading. Hell, most of them are a matter of opinion.
Not to mention those articles are out of date and supported by studies using irrelevant circumstances. Also, do you see how many supplements the author is trying to sale?
Those studies linked his references deal with subjects who are tested in an overnight fasted state. A lot of those references also deal with endurance protocols, glycogen depletion, rate of glycogen resynthesis after full depletion -- all of this is irrelevant. The rate of glycogen resynthesis means absolutely nothing to those who don't have multiple glycogen depleting events in a 24hr period.
Your 'articles' may be relevant to ultraendurance athletes, but not to bodybuilders or the average Joe.
The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.
So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.
To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/puBathmateed/21289204
Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everything to drop back down to baseline.
You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.
Below is an an except from http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf
"The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects, which obviously limits the applicability of the studies' conclusions. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal absorption. For this reason, nutrient timing is not a strategy that's only effective is done with a chronometer-like precision."
I highly suggest that you do some more research in regards to nutrient timing because it's clear you have not done any.
REDZULU2003;432834 said:
First of all, those are articles, not threads. If you ask ANYONE who frequents the BodyBuilding.com forums/website, you would know that those articles are not reviewed for accuracy and can be extremely misleading. Hell, most of them are a matter of opinion.
Not to mention those articles are out of date and supported by studies using irrelevant circumstances. Also, do you see how many supplements the author is trying to sale?
Those studies linked his references deal with subjects who are tested in an overnight fasted state. A lot of those references also deal with endurance protocols, glycogen depletion, rate of glycogen resynthesis after full depletion -- all of this is irrelevant. The rate of glycogen resynthesis means absolutely nothing to those who don't have multiple glycogen depleting events in a 24hr period.
Your 'articles' may be relevant to ultraendurance athletes, but not to bodybuilders or the average Joe.
The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.
So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.
To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/puBathmateed/21289204
Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everything to drop back down to baseline.
You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.
Below is an an except from http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf
"The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects, which obviously limits the applicability of the studies' conclusions. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal absorption. For this reason, nutrient timing is not a strategy that's only effective is done with a chronometer-like precision."
I highly suggest that you do some more research in regards to nutrient timing because it's clear you have not done any.
REDZULU2003;432833 said:
The book, the book, the book. You're posting a link to purchase a book which is simply a waste of money. Nutrient timing does not matter at all. You've read one book on nutrient timing along with few opinionated articles and somehow you know for a FACT nutrient timing matters.
Lol. They do it because 'it is what everyone does'. It's repetition. No one knows WHY they consume a shake postWO they simply do it because someone 'bigger' than them does so. It's not backed by any credible scientific research at all. However, it is backed by supplement companies like you wouldn't believe...Hmmm, I wonder why.
I'm not on the issue of diets in general. I'm on the issue of nutrient timing, which is interlaced with your diet (nutrition).
Judging by some of your responses it's clear that you haven't read or looked into any of my links posted. You haven't digested half of what I have wrote in this thread either.
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Are the guys who wrote the 'book' not know what they are talking about? I'm going from what they have wrote and they're meant to be well respected in what they write so its a case of you need to preach this to someone who does care like the authors of the book.
Thread closed.
Thread closed.
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