Sorry to Say, but Taller Guys Have It Hard In the Weight Room..

keepingitbig · May 16, 2011

I took away barbells and started using dumbbells. Although my incline has increased and my benching has increased as well, I'm still somewhat a stand-still when it comes to range of motion. Have I gotten stronger? Of course I have. Started taking Creatine mono a week ago starting out with a low-loading phase of 10 to 15 grams a day on 6 days than started on my my maintenance. It has worked great for me, but still free-weights is an arch enemy. While I see shorter guys dominating those weights like it ain't nothing.

Anyone have any tips for taller guys regarding free-weights? My biggest enemy is bicep curls, because the ROM. I even tried drop-setting, but the shit still doesn't work most of the time.

DLD · May 16, 2011

keepingitbig;431775 said:
I took away barbells and started using dumbbells. Although my incline has increased and my benching has increased as well, I'm still somewhat a stand-still when it comes to range of motion. Have I gotten stronger? Of course I have. Started taking Creatine mono a week ago starting out with a low-loading phase of 10 to 15 grams a day on 6 days than started on my my maintenance. It has worked great for me, but still free-weights is an arch enemy. While I see shorter guys dominating those weights like it ain't nothing.

Anyone have any tips for taller guys regarding free-weights? My biggest enemy is bicep curls, because the ROM. I even tried drop-setting, but the shit still doesn't work most of the time.

I was always a huge fan of the isolated curls bench. No need for good form as form is set.

sizerp · May 16, 2011

You should work your arms during back day! My arms are always destroyed after back day. Barbell curls (in my opinion) are like best for burning out at the end of a good workout.

MAXAMEYES · May 16, 2011

Do you stretch after every set? If not, you might wanna try, it's great for flushing out lactic acid, rushing in oxygen and restoring range of motion.

I useta do the Cybergenics workout and stretching was a critical component to keep from getting crippled after going to positive AND negative failure 4 times per bodypart per workout.

Just grab a weight 10-20% of what you were just lifting, and relax into the stretch- full lengthening of the muscle- for about 30-60 seconds.
Works damn well, you might wanna give it a shot.

shr0om_7 · May 16, 2011

Loading creatine is pointless.
Your muscles can only take so much creatine before their saturation point is reached. You will hit this level regardless if you load or don't load. The "loading phase" was created by the supplement companies to get you to use more creatine than you need.

Try to mix your creatine with warm water as it will dissolve the creatine faster vs cold water. Dissolved creatine gets absorbed faster and used more efficiently. If you don't believe me, fill one glass with warm water and another with cold water. Mix them both and time them.

Thank god you are taking mono and not CEE. CEE has been proven to be useless.

As far as what to do with your ROM there might be a few things to try. Drop sets are definitely not going to help with your ROM either.

Maybe you are trying to lift too much weight thus making a full ROM seem difficult?

If you can't seem to get a full ROM with a decreased weight you should find a preacher curl machine (or another bicep exercise machine) which will keep your form and ROM strict.

I'm curious, but why did you "take away barbells" from yourself?

I would advise against working arms (biceps) after you hit your back, especially if you hit it hard/heavy. Your biceps get worked with virtually every back exercise as they are synergists for your back. Your biceps will be fatigued and you won't be able to train them as efficiently.

Stretching is a great point as well. I would recommend active stretching. Active stretching is using weights that work the muscles in a fully stretched ROM. Since you were talking about biceps, preacher curls are an amazing exercise for actively stretching your biceps.

Good luck.

keepingitbig · May 17, 2011

Loading creatine is pointless.
Your muscles can only take so much creatine before their saturation point is reached. You will hit this level regardless if you load or don't load. The "loading phase" was created by the supplement companies to get you to use more creatine than you need.

I wasn't really loading, but doing just a normal creatine intake of 10gs per day for 5 days. I take 3 to 5gs on non-workout days and 5gs on workout days.

Try to mix your creatine with warm water as it will dissolve the creatine faster vs cold water. Dissolved creatine gets absorbed faster and used more efficiently. If you don't believe me, fill one glass with warm water and another with cold water. Mix them both and time them.

Is it better to take it with a spoon and put it straight in my mouth, than drink fruit-juice, or warm-water to wash it down?

As far as what to do with your ROM there might be a few things to try. Drop sets are definitely not going to help with your ROM either.

Maybe you are trying to lift too much weight thus making a full ROM seem difficult?

I currently lift 65lbs and I tried doing 70lbs. Gives a good pump, but I can't go further than 6 reps. I use variations to get the peak.

If you can't seem to get a full ROM with a decreased weight you should find a preacher curl machine (or another bicep exercise machine) which will keep your form and ROM strict.

I'm not a machine man, per say. I like doing the original way of BBing using free-weights and little machines as possible.

I'm curious, but why did you "take away barbells" from yourself?

I took away barbell for the moment ONLY for chest movement. So far, the dumbbells have worked in my favor and I'm increasing in strength. I'll go back to the flat-bench barbell when I'm ready.

I would advise against working arms (biceps) after you hit your back, especially if you hit it hard/heavy. Your biceps get worked with virtually every back exercise as they are synergists for your back. Your biceps will be fatigued and you won't be able to train them as efficiently.

To tell you the truth, I've never had a problem on Back & Bicep day. Always had energy afterwards doing my back first, lol.

Stretching is a great point as well. I would recommend active stretching. Active stretching is using weights that work the muscles in a fully stretched ROM. Since you were talking about biceps, preacher curls are an amazing exercise for actively stretching your biceps.

Good luck.

I'll give that a try. Thanks!

Turnover · May 17, 2011

Doesn't it make sense these shorter guys can lift heavier weights easier if they are lower to the ground then the weight does not have as much gravity from as high. Can you sit on a weight bench and achieve the same results? You should invent the first weights with extra long handles.

shr0om_7 · May 17, 2011

keepingitbig;431896 said:
I wasn't really loading, but doing just a normal creatine intake of 10gs per day for 5 days. I take 3 to 5gs on non-workout days and 5gs on workout days.

Okay good. That should yield some pretty decent results. Expect to start seeing improvements within 2-3 weeks.

Is it better to take it with a spoon and put it straight in my mouth, than drink fruit-juice, or warm-water to wash it down?

I have taken creatine in the past via a spoon full washed down with grapefruit juice and I thought it was okay. However, upon further reading and research regarding creatine absorption and utilization I would recommend mixing your 3-5g's with warm water. Stir a few times until fully (or ALMOST fully) dissolved (usually takes 1-3 minutes) and then drink it. This will reduce bloating and increase the rate at which the creatine gets absorbed into your body.

I currently lift 65lbs and I tried doing 70lbs. Gives a good pump, but I can't go further than 6 reps. I use variations to get the peak.

65# for each DB or ~32.5# per DB? 6 reps is perfectly fine if you're going heavy. Some people see better results with more volume e.g. 12 exercises for arms (3 exercises by 4 sets) vs 6-9 exercises (2-3 exercises by 3 sets)

I'm not a machine man, per say. I like doing the original way of BBing using free-weights and little machines as possible.

Well, do not get me wrong free weights are essential to any weight lifting routine, but machines are also up there as well. Machines will allow you to take yourself to failure without worrying about having a spotter or sacrificing form. Machines will build muscle just as free weights will. If you do not like machines because of personal reasons (as you said liking the original way) that is perfectly fine, but they are extremely helpful.

I took away barbell for the moment ONLY for chest movement. So far, the dumbbells have worked in my favor and I'm increasing in strength. I'll go back to the flat-bench barbell when I'm ready.

Ah, okay. I understand now. Definitely keep the incline movements in your chest routine. A lot of people respond better to incline chest movements for growth vs flat. I would recommend keeping the BB Flat Bench in your routine if you can as well. If you're looking for overall chest development doing body weight dips until you are able to do weighted dips will help tremendously.

Keep in mind that the eccentric aspect of your reps are more important than the concentric.

To tell you the truth, I've never had a problem on Back & Bicep day. Always had energy afterwards doing my back first, lol.

Some people do not have a problem with training both back/bis on the same day. If you're hitting your back hard your biceps will become fatigued and hinder their strength. You might come back at me with pre-exhausting training methods but pre-exhausting != fatigue. If you want, try to train back/tris on the same day along with chest/bis. I understand that everyone is different and not everyone needs the same full body/weekly split. Just a suggestion.

I'll give that a try. Thanks!

If you want to actively stretch your chest, incorporate DB Flys into your chest routine.

Out of curiosity, what is your diet like?

DLD · May 17, 2011

excellent advice! Thanks for taking the time to address each point!

keepingitbig · May 17, 2011

shr0om_7;432008 said:
Okay good. That should yield some pretty decent results. Expect to start seeing improvements within 2-3 weeks.

I have taken creatine in the past via a spoon full washed down with grapefruit juice and I thought it was okay. However, upon further reading and research regarding creatine absorption and utilization I would recommend mixing your 3-5g's with warm water. Stir a few times until fully (or ALMOST fully) dissolved (usually takes 1-3 minutes) and then drink it. This will reduce bloating and increase the rate at which the creatine gets absorbed into your body.

65# for each DB or ~32.5# per DB? 6 reps is perfectly fine if you're going heavy. Some people see better results with more volume e.g. 12 exercises for arms (3 exercises by 4 sets) vs 6-9 exercises (2-3 exercises by 3 sets)

Well, do not get me wrong free weights are essential to any weight lifting routine, but machines are also up there as well. Machines will allow you to take yourself to failure without worrying about having a spotter or sacrificing form. Machines will build muscle just as free weights will. If you do not like machines because of personal reasons (as you said liking the original way) that is perfectly fine, but they are extremely helpful.

Ah, okay. I understand now. Definitely keep the incline movements in your chest routine. A lot of people respond better to incline chest movements for growth vs flat. I would recommend keeping the BB Flat Bench in your routine if you can as well. If you're looking for overall chest development doing body weight dips until you are able to do weighted dips will help tremendously.

Keep in mind that the eccentric aspect of your reps are more important than the concentric.

Some people do not have a problem with training both back/bis on the same day. If you're hitting your back hard your biceps will become fatigued and hinder their strength. You might come back at me with pre-exhausting training methods but pre-exhausting != fatigue. If you want, try to train back/tris on the same day along with chest/bis. I understand that everyone is different and not everyone needs the same full body/weekly split. Just a suggestion.

If you want to actively stretch your chest, incorporate DB Flys into your chest routine.

Out of curiosity, what is your diet like?

Okay, what about my post-workout protein? Do I use warm water, stir it in with the creatine until it's gone, freeze it, than put it in my post-workout shake? That sounds pretty logical, eh? I might try the chest/bicep and back/tricep next week to see results. I do machines though like calf raises, lat pulldown and the cable station for my isolation movements, but that's about it. 90 percent is free-weight 5 percent machines and the other percent is bodyweight finsher movements. Couple more questions.

Should I do deep-squats vs parallel? Will hurt kill my knees because of my height. i think most of my gains will come from deep squats if I try it, but it's kind of hard doing it at 280lbs. Second, It's about legs too. Should I put back the angled leg press on my leg/shoulder day? Or will that be considered abit of overtraining?

keepingitbig · May 17, 2011

Oh yeah I use flat & incline dumbbell bench press.

shr0om_7 · May 17, 2011

keepingitbig;432053 said:
Okay, what about my post-workout protein? Do I use warm water, stir it in with the creatine until it's gone, freeze it, than put it in my post-workout shake? That sounds pretty logical, eh?

I would recommend taking the creatine completely separate from your PWO shake. Once it is dissolved just drink it down at whatever pace you feel comfortable with. Once you have consumed the creatine then you can move on to your protein shake. Don't believe the whole "you only have a thirty minute window to achieve maximum growth/recovery" either. Take some simple carbs with your protein shake as well e.g. dextrose, maltodextrin, etc. Maltodextrin has recently came under fire, so conduct your own research if you decide to go with it.

I might try the chest/bicep and back/tricep next week to see results.

Awesome bro! If you do decide to try it out be sure to either report back in this thread or PM me letting me know how they felt compared to your normal split.

I do machines though like calf raises, lat pulldown and the cable station for my isolation movements, but that's about it. 90 percent is free-weight 5 percent machines and the other percent is bodyweight finsher movements.

Ah! Calf raises on machines are so much more convenient than using a barbell. Lat pulldowns are good as well. However, with the Pulldowns be sure to limit swaying as much as you possibly can. You might want to check out the seated rowing machine as well. Glad to see you keep body weight exercises in there! Most people neglect them and I don't know why exactly. :/ I personally finish my each day with a body weight exercise and do them on my off days just as yourself.

Should I do deep-squats vs parallel? Will hurt kill my knees because of my height. i think most of my gains will come from deep squats if I try it, but it's kind of hard doing it at 280lbs.

By deep squats are you referencing ATG (Ass to Grass) squats? If so, no you do not necessarily have to go ridiculously deep on squats. Squatting ATG it 'better' vs squatting parallel, but only by a littleee. If you can hit parallel you will be just fine IMO. Not to mention the difference between an ATG squat and a parallel squat is normally around 3-5". If your knees start to hurt I would say the cause would be improper form vs a height issue. If you find that parallel squats hurt your knees check your form. If your form is good and they still hurt, check out the Hack Squat machine instead. Some people unfortunately do have knee issues, but they can easily be worked around.

Second, It's about legs too. Should I put back the angled leg press on my leg/shoulder day? Or will that be considered abit of overtraining?

I would say that is fine. What is your leg routine like? Normally overtraining is mainly considered too much volume by most, but other factors play into it such as: intensity, diet, genetics, etc. If you start to have any of these symptoms: overtaining might be the cause: persistent muscle soreness, elevated resting heart rate, increased susceptibility to infections, increased incidence of injuries, irritability, depression, loss of motivation, and loss of appetite then overtraining is most likely the cause.

Oh yeah I use flat & incline dumbbell bench press.

Great, glad to see you're incorporating both of them into your routine.

REDZULU2003 · May 17, 2011

Link to the study on CEE effectivness VS Mono I will quote the following

The creatine ethyl ester did lead to a considerable increase in the amount of creatinine in the test subjects' blood.

Which is a positive thing.

After seven weeks of taking the supplement, the creatine users had made the same amount of progress as the creatine ethyl ester users and the placebo group. In terms of body composition and the development of muscle power, all three groups had made the same amount of progress.

So neither works less or best than the other, all things considered equal.

"It can be concluded that a large portion of the creatine ethyl ester was being degraded within the GI tract after ingestion", the researchers conclude. "Furthermore, it appears that the skeletal muscle uptake of creatine ethyl ester uptake was not significant enough to increase skeletal muscle creatine levels without significant degradation to creatinine occurring".

That is the researchers’ conclusion. But creatine ethyl ester didn‘t really have a fair chance in this study.

From my own personal experiences with many forms of Creatine incl CEE I prefer CEE. I certainly notice its effects after consumption. The whole point around CEE is the ethyl ester that is attached to it in order for more absorption of Creatine into the body and this study does show that levels were higher than standard Creatine.

Conclusions for me is they both work.

shr0om_7 · May 17, 2011

These videos might assist you with squatting as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyjpz4jkjSQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZ1HzoH0Rw

BTW DLD check out this link homie > http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php/199304-How-To-Make-a-YouTube-BB-Code :cool:

shr0om_7 · May 17, 2011

Red:

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

shr0om_7 · May 17, 2011

Red:

http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/6

Abstract

Numerous creatine formulations have been developed primarily to maximize creatine absorption. Creatine ethyl ester is alleged to increase creatine bio-availability. This study examined how a seven-week supplementation regimen combined with resistance training affected body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and power, serum and muscle creatine levels, and serum creatinine levels in 30 non-resistance-trained males. In a double-blind manner, participants were randomly assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA), creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine ethyl ester (CEE) group. The supplements were orally ingested at a dose of 0.30 g/kg fat-free body mass (approximately 20 g/day) for five days followed by ingestion at 0.075 g/kg fat free mass (approximately 5 g/day) for 42 days. Results showed significantly higher serum creatine concentrations in PLA (p = 0.007) and CRT (p = 0.005) compared to CEE. Serum creatinine was greater in CEE compared to the PLA (p = 0.001) and CRT (p = 0.001) and increased at days 6, 27, and 48. Total muscle creatine content was significantly higher in CRT (p = 0.026) and CEE (p = 0.041) compared to PLA, with no differences between CRT and CEE. Significant changes over time were observed for body composition, body water, muscle strength and power variables, but no significant differences were observed between groups. In conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the improvements in these variables can most likely be attributed to the training protocol itself, rather than the supplementation regimen.

keepingitbig · May 17, 2011

I meant seated calf raises. Well, then Is it possible I can take the protein shake after my workout. Wait an hour, than take the creatine with warm water? Would that be okay. I don't want to put 5 different cups in my car, lol. Kidding about that though. But would that be okay?

REDZULU2003 · May 17, 2011

shr0om_7;432072 said:
Red:

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

Found this study discussed http://velocity.t-nation.com/free_o...ition_supplements/latest_creatine_controversy and I take it as I find it like many studies nowadays on supplements. This study was a replica of stomach conditions and as such cant be taken as exact fact .. its just another study and is for the reader to take out of it what they like. Its not black and white that CEE is worse than the norm.

REDZULU2003 · May 17, 2011

shr0om_7;432074 said:
Red:

http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/6

Abstract

Numerous creatine formulations have been developed primarily to maximize creatine absorption. Creatine ethyl ester is alleged to increase creatine bio-availability. This study examined how a seven-week supplementation regimen combined with resistance training affected body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and power, serum and muscle creatine levels, and serum creatinine levels in 30 non-resistance-trained males. In a double-blind manner, participants were randomly assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA), creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine ethyl ester (CEE) group. The supplements were orally ingested at a dose of 0.30 g/kg fat-free body mass (approximately 20 g/day) for five days followed by ingestion at 0.075 g/kg fat free mass (approximately 5 g/day) for 42 days. Results showed significantly higher serum creatine concentrations in PLA (p = 0.007) and CRT (p = 0.005) compared to CEE. Serum creatinine was greater in CEE compared to the PLA (p = 0.001) and CRT (p = 0.001) and increased at days 6, 27, and 48. Total muscle creatine content was significantly higher in CRT (p = 0.026) and CEE (p = 0.041) compared to PLA, with no differences between CRT and CEE. Significant changes over time were observed for body composition, body water, muscle strength and power variables, but no significant differences were observed between groups. In conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the improvements in these variables can most likely be attributed to the training protocol itself, rather than the supplementation regimen.

BETTER study and shows it more clearly from a more established group. If CEE was tweaked so that it could pass through better it would yield more than it does now.

shr0om_7 · May 17, 2011

keepingitbig;432078 said:
I meant seated calf raises.

Standing or seated, still they are more convenient. Lol.

Well, then Is it possible I can take the protein shake after my workout. Wait an hour, than take the creatine with warm water? Would that be okay. I don't want to put 5 different cups in my car, lol. Kidding about that though. But would that be okay?

I wouldn't wait an hour. You want to use your body's raised insulin levels to drive the creatine into your muscle cells. If you can try and fill your shaker bottle with the creatine prior to leaving your house. Once done at the gym fill the shaker bottle with warm water and shake/stir it. Drink it and then place your protein in after. If you can not do this, mixing creatine with your post workout shake will be fine. I am sure the results will not be drastically different. I was simply telling you how to get the most creatine absorption possible.

Sorry to Say, but Taller Guys Have It Hard In the Weight Room..

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