If Jesus would return?

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Kal-el

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What do you think would happen if Christ returned to today's society? I think if someone claiming he was the Christ returned, he would be quickly mocked and jailed.
 
Im sure the book of Revelations has accounts of what will happen...being the last prophecy in the Bible, His return won't be pretty for unbelievers...We will all know soon enough.
 
Duppi_KronKite said:
If Christ showed up today I know the last thing he would want to see is a cross. Yet all of his followers symbolize him with it.
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Thats all it is, a symbol. Just like the Jesus fish and the lamb. Some people wear the cross, some people wear a silver or gold Jesus piece. I think all that matters is the faith they are supposed to have within, not the outward expression they try to exert.
 
Duppi_KronKite said:
If Christ showed up today I know the last thing he would want to see is a cross. Yet all of his followers symbolize him with it.
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Yup. If he was killed by a stab wound, I bet all his so called "followers" would wear a dagger on their necklaces. I'm sure Jesus hates the cross. Glorifying the instrument used to kill Jesus in the most barbaric way is asinine. Nice avatar by the way Juggers. I see I'm not the only one who enjoys watching smallville.
 
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If, magically, Jesus returned today I bet he could develop a small following again. I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
 
Kal-el said:
Yup. If he was killed by a stab wound, I bet all his so called "followers" would wear a dagger on their necklaces. I'm sure Jesus hates the cross. Glorifying the instrument used to kill Jesus in the most barbaric way is asinine. Nice avatar by the way Juggers. I see I'm not the only one who enjoys watching smallville.
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Jesus went to the cross willingly. You have to keep in mind that (according to Christianity) Jesus is God personified. God knew exactly how He would be killed and went anyway. I think if he were going to hate it he would have hated it the first time around.
 
Yay! Another religious debate thread. I dont think Jesus is returning any time soon if ever. "If" he ever did, he'd be bringing his lawyers along with him. ;) We've been living in the "end times" since before Jesus was ever thought of. There are so called 'proofs' that can support just about whatever religious belief you could think of from any religion. Why is the Christian 'faith' the only one who gets to be right? Having a higher understanding of things in a given area or in many areas does not make one a god or worthy of worship. Too bad you cant under U.S. laws anyway franchise non profit organisations like churches. They're fantastic money making machines. Would you like fries with that?
 
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9cyclops9 said:
Jesus went to the cross willingly. You have to keep in mind that (according to Christianity) Jesus is God personified. God knew exactly how He would be killed and went anyway. I think if he were going to hate it he would have hated it the first time around.
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That is to say if the story of Jesus actually happened...

We are coming to the end of our Journey so if there is going to be a second coming it will be coming fairly quickly.

It was once said the first form of Mind Control was Religion. Take something the people feared (Death) and tell them if they conform they will be given life after death. It made it easy for tribes to control their people.

Imagine a world where people thought completely for themselves instead of having the guy beside you lead you down the path. People don't think because thinking leads to conclusions and conclusions aren't always pleasant.
 
I think the modern media has a lot to do with the resurgence in the popularity of religion. There have always been natural disasters, impending doom from outer space, hunger/starvation, diseases, etc. All part of the natural cycle in the universe. Life in general can be a big disaster if you allow it to be. Many times we have no control over what happens. The media of today however, loves to zoom in on things like this, and sensationalize things to make it seem like we've never seen such things like we do nowadays. Therefor, to the uninformed it would be easy to conclude that the "signs of change" are amongst us, we must be living in the "end times". I think religion ends up being a scapegoat for many people. Something to blame their problems on. God doesnt love me, thats why my wife died, or I have cancer. Satan rules the earth, thats why people in Africa are dying of starvation. It's the equivalent of relying on "the gods" for a good crop growing season.
 
Juggers said:
Im sure the book of Revelations has accounts of what will happen...being the last prophecy in the Bible, His return won't be pretty for unbelievers...We will all know soon enough.
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I'm already prepared ive got a fire retardant immersion suit,i only take it off to hang or shower,so when i get thrown in the lake of burning fire,i should be ok.

Its not just unbelievers there is a little list including all liers,so lets hope no ones been telling pork pies or you might be a bit disappointed.
 
Duppi_KronKite said:
That is to say if the story of Jesus actually happened...
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For whatever it's worth, I've heard that historical records kept by Roman officials detail the crucifixtion of a man named Jesus and that his body was found missing shortly afterwards. I think there is enough evidence to suggest the events happened, though that certainly does not prove the divinity of Jesus.
 
I've also "heard" "unconfirmed rumors" of things like secret documents and scriptures kept under tight lock and key by the roman catholic church which contain unspecified controversial religious information. Now in todays' modern society what sort of ideas does a statement like that conjure up? Could be anything right? Why would a religious organization keep things from the masses?? Is there something to hide? May or may not even have anything to do with Jesus, the "Virgin Mary", etc. One can do their own homework and find information, well documented information that confirms the fact that SEVERAL religions from the past that have either come and gone, or are still in existence which share similar ideas to other religions. Now how does a christian or any other religious person explain things like this? How is it that people from all corners of the earth and not specified reagions have come up with similar religious ideas? Everyone knows that when one man comes up with an idea no matter how unique it has often either been thought of before, or it is thought of by someone else as well. It's usually just a case of who says they came up with it first. (How bout a patent office for divinity;)) How do the inventors of astrology for example come up with concepts that very closely mirror the christian faith.....THOUSANDS of years before christ supposedly walked the earth? That's just one example. People from various cultures have charted the stars and astral bodies for millenia. Some have made it into a religion and chosen to 'worship' the heavenly bodies and some have not. Let's take on the ancient Greeks as another short example. How many GODS did they have? They just like many other ancient cultures practically had a god for everything you could think of. Does it make a culture wrong, or condemned before the eyes of another "true" god because they worship many gods vs. this one, devine entity? Let's take another concept into consideration real quick. The "words of god" have always been transcribed (written down) by mankind. Because of this fact alone, not to mention that mankind....unlike a 'divine entity' is fallable...how can anyone truly say that what a given religious sect may spew as "fact" is indeed fact or "the word of" any deity? People love to latch onto ideas that appeal to them dont they? Emotionally, logically, if it sounds good we as humans love it like a fat kid loves cake. If a group of people catch on to an idea, "god forbid" someone else comes along and tries to discredit what has now turned into a new belief system.
 
The only thing that counted before and counts now is faith. Of course non of this makes sense right now in this day and age...You simply need to develope some type of faith. I don't doubt that the story of Jesus as God returning to judge the people of the earth sounds nutso, and that all these crazy things are going to happen soon...however we are lead to beleive so many things in life, most we never really question but just accept with blind faith. Think about all the things we think we know and we believe in them, all the things we have faith in. Jesus returning is a pure, faith driven belief. This is what happens when people don't read the Bible, they get all confused about His return.
 
penguinsfan said:
For whatever it's worth, I've heard that historical records kept by Roman officials detail the crucifixtion of a man named Jesus and that his body was found missing shortly afterwards. I think there is enough evidence to suggest the events happened, though that certainly does not prove the divinity of Jesus.
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Im not saying he never existed, I am saying the story of his life is false. I have done my homework and if some guy today lived and died as a normal man and 100 years later the establisHydromaxent says that guy was Santa Claus and creates a new story of his life, should I believe him??
 
Most of you people are looking at this from an Athiest's standpoint. Saying things like, "Does it make them wrong that they worshiped multiple Gods vs. One God?" People with faith have this mindset: My religion is right. If you expect a person with truly devout faith to say, "Well, I might be wrong", then it won't happen, because that defeats the purpose of faith. I'm a devout Christian, and I believe Christ will be coming back soon. And when he does, un-Christian's will basically be tossed into Hell, and the Christians live on His kingdom on Earth and are in Heaven. It may not be what you believe, and that's fine. But don't expect me to say, "That MIGHT Be what's going to happen", because if I said it might not, that'd be like saying, "I'm not sure of my religion", and I'm quite sure of that.

As for the evidence of Jesus' existance: The Shroud of Turin may (or may not, they don't have any definitely proof yet, mostly speculation and forsensic evidence) that it was the shroud that Jesus was wrapped in when he was buried. It has bloodstains that show crucifixation and a crown of thorns, as well as the spear wound Jesus was given to assure he was dead on the cross. There is other evidence as well, but all I'm going to say any more about Jesus' existance is this: Faith means I don't need evidence. I've felt God in me, and I believe in him whole-heartedly. So, even if there was absolutely zero evidence of Jesus, I would still believe in him just as strongly.

Also...as for Him hating the cross. The cross doesn't represent His crucifixion, it represents the salvation He granted us. So, I think that's why it's a symbol.
 
Also, the whole "If Hhe came back, He'd be jailed and mocked" thing... This time He's not here to live as a man, witness to us, and then die for us...He's here to send sinners to Hell, and estabilish His kingdom. So, we wouldn't have a chance to mock Him.
 
Anyone can spread rumors and the like....some fool could come along and say "hey you know, Jesus could have had an intimate relationship with Mary, heck, they could have had kids!"...another could say "Yes, I heard on tv that Jesus could have tricked those people bla bla bla"...yes, anything could have happened those thousands of years ago....unfortunatley all the crap people are fed about Jesus and his life and what COULD have happened hinder the real truth to people struggling to understand. Everything you need to know is in the Bible, even things about Jesus' life. Believe the media crap you see on tv about Jesus and Christianity. God is more concerned about the condition of your heart. I don't see why its so easy not to beleive and accept than it is to deny. Faith is a very simple thing that very few people seem to grasp.
 
I believe in God because I read the bible, went to church a few times (Although I don't attend church regularly, it gets on my nerves...goes to show that not all Christians are what you think :p).

Anyway, basically, something about it just felt right. Divine inspiration, I suppose. I felt Him inside of me, and I just...knew. Sometimes it takes forever for you to feel the Hand of God inside of you to show you, and sometimes it happens right away. I've struggled with my faith between the ages of 12-15, and 15 is when I finally got saved. There's no one thing that can really convert you, but I'd say the biggest influence on my Christianity was probably the Left Behind books.
 
I like any Christian still struggle with my faith at 19 years old...just like anything else, there is always a struggle. No one made me believe what I believe, I did it on my own. I guess when I was about 16 I struggled with lifes questions and wanted answers like every other human. "Why are we here?", "whats the purpose of life?". I was scared of death and didn't want to believe that I would die someday...I wanted to have a purpose. I refused to believe that we just get born, live a crappy life, then die with no meaning. Just die. Whats the point anyway? I wanted to have a reason, I wanted to believe in something. I went to church, accepted Christ as my savior, and ever since then my life has been different. Its just a choice. No one can make you believe. If you truly think that your on this earth just to die and thats the end of it then fine. I on the other hand I with a few other billion choose to think differently.
 
Juggers said:
I like any Christian still struggle with my faith at 19 years old...just like anything else, there is always a struggle. No one made me believe what I believe, I did it on my own. I guess when I was about 16 I struggled with lifes questions and wanted answers like every other human. "Why are we here?", "whats the purpose of life?". I was scared of death and didn't want to believe that I would die someday...I wanted to have a purpose. I refused to believe that we just get born, live a crappy life, then die with no meaning. Just die. Whats the point anyway? I wanted to have a reason, I wanted to believe in something. I went to church, accepted Christ as my savior, and ever since then my life has been different. Its just a choice. No one can make you believe. If you truly think that your on this earth just to die and thats the end of it then fine. I on the other hand I with a few other billion choose to think differently.
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Thank you for a honest answer,that is what i have always thought religion is simply there because people are scared of death.

Couple of quotes that might get you thinking.

"Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

"Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand."

"I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting."

"I am myself a dissenter from all known religions, and I hope that every kind of religious belief will die out."

- Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathematician, and social critic (1872-1970).

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"If people are good only because they fear punisHydromaxent, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him."

"Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?"

Arthur C. Clarke, author
 
penguinsfan said:
For whatever it's worth, I've heard that historical records kept by Roman officials detail the crucifixtion of a man named Jesus and that his body was found missing shortly afterwards. I think there is enough evidence to suggest the events happened, though that certainly does not prove the divinity of Jesus.
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Exactly right. There is historical evidence of a man named Jesus crucified. But that does'nt prove divinity.
 
Yes, I feared death before, but no longer fear death like I used to. Death was one of the reasons, but the true power and feeling I got from accepting Christ was a whole different feeling...there's a difference between religion and faith in Christ....anyone can be religious, praying 5 times a day, wearing religious symbols...the condition of your heart and spirit are the only thing that really matter. There is no scientific proof of what will happen to our thoughts or spirit or soul after we die....so the obvious route we are to take is pure faith in what may happen...at least that is something....So I suppose the world views Christians are wrong doers? Are we really wrong for believing in God? Really? Someone smoking crack or selling dope on the corner is right? Are they wrong? Who is to say really right? Its their life, I mean, who is to say???? Thats why as a person you must take a stand on what your beliefs are...or else you will be blown any which way by the wind.
 
No your not wrong to believe in god,a person should be allowed to believe in whatever they want,it becomes wrong when that belief is used to hurt or persecute people.

Being from the uk i would say religion is on the decline,i no on the rare occasion i go to the local chapel were i was baptized i see very few youngsters amongest the congregation the same goes for the local catholic church.

Being that the majority of this board is based in the states one thing i have noticed is that a lot of the younger members are almost fanatical in there belief,to the point that some seem to view themselves as being morally supperior and on occasion show almost hatred and contempt for those who choose not to believe,this i find strange considering these same people will preach love and peace.
 
prince Albert said:
No your not wrong to believe in god,a person should be allowed to believe in whatever they want,it becomes wrong when that belief is used to hurt or persecute people.

Being from the uk i would say religion is on the decline,i no on the rare occasion i go to the local chapel were i was baptized i see very few youngsters amongest the congregation the same goes for the local catholic church.

Being that the majority of this board is based in the states one thing i have noticed is that a lot of the younger members are almost fanatical in there belief,to the point that some seem to view themselves as being morally supperior and on occasion show almost hatred and contempt for those who choose not to believe,this i find strange considering these same people will preach love and peace.
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I totally agree...every one is different, hence the bad name religion has been getting for a long time. Take Muslims for example, a lot of people think that all Muslims want to kill Americans and thats in their religion...there are however some very nice Muslim people who hate that kind of stuff. There are some people who say they are Christian and act Christian, but do dumb crap. Thats why we aren't supposed to judge people by how they act because you never really know the condition of that persons heart...only God knows that. Thats why He is the ultimate judge because he knows.
 
Ok juggers,i would say i am a good person but i don't believe in god,i have 3 children and i am raising them to no the difference between right and wrong,i'm faithful to my wife i work hard pay my taxes,i go out of my way to be helpful to others as this is the way i was raised.

Now lets say god does exsist and he looks into my heart on the day of judgement and he see's i'm basicaly a good man but he knows ive been an unbeliever all my adult life,what does he do?

On the other hand he looks into the heart of a priest who has devoted his life to the church but see's that deep down this man has wanted to hurt or abuse children.What does he do?
 
prince Albert said:
Ok juggers,i would say i am a good person but i don't believe in god,i have 3 children and i am raising them to no the difference between right and wrong,i'm faithful to my wife i work hard pay my taxes,i go out of my way to be helpful to others as this is the way i was raised.

Now lets say god does exsist and he looks into my heart on the day of judgement and he see's i'm basicaly a good man but he knows ive been an unbeliever all my adult life,what does he do?

On the other hand he looks into the heart of a priest who has devoted his life to the church but see's that deep down this man has wanted to hurt or abuse children.What does he do?
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Good question. I cant answer this fully because its one of those gray questions...Im glad that theres an answer somewhere in the Bible referring to this. Basically, God knows that there are people who don't believe. These people, like yourself are sinners. Everyone sins against God, including myself and billions of other Christians. The difference is, Christians are forgiven through the sacrifice that Jesus made. Because God knew that his creation would eventually turn on him (due to free will because He loves us and created us in his image), He created a way that would bring us back into sync with him. If a person doesn't believe in God, such as yourself for example as you say, there is no redemption for that person, no way of becoming righteous in the eyes of God. The priest you speak of....God knows the priest sick weakness. However, because the priest has been saved by grace and his Son, he will be judged according to that. In other words, even Christan's can go to hell if they continue a life of sin. But like I said, this is a tough question that I don't fully have the knowledge or wisdom to answer. I would really like to know the unbelievers reasons for not "believing"...some people believe in far more questionable and bazaar things in this life, and yet a simple faith and belief in God is so morbid. People are rebellious by nature, and sinful by choice.
 
prince Albert said:
Ok juggers,i would say i am a good person but i don't believe in god,i have 3 children and i am raising them to no the difference between right and wrong,i'm faithful to my wife i work hard pay my taxes,i go out of my way to be helpful to others as this is the way i was raised.

Now lets say god does exsist and he looks into my heart on the day of judgement and he see's i'm basicaly a good man but he knows ive been an unbeliever all my adult life,what does he do?

On the other hand he looks into the heart of a priest who has devoted his life to the church but see's that deep down this man has wanted to hurt or abuse children.What does he do?
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You won't like the answer, but according to the Bible and Christian Faith:

You would go to Hell. The only path to immortality in Christ is through Christ. It doesn't matter how good of a life you live; everyone is born a sinner. I know that's hard to take, but that's the way it is. Everyone of us is born a sinner, and all sins are equal. Unless you let Christ save you (Also, to be 'saved' is to have Jesus save your soul, forgive you), you can not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

The priest would go into Heaven. Because he resisted. Everyone in the world has urges that are wrong. I have violent urges a lot, because I'm a very angry person sometimes, and have a hard time controlling myself. If a person who killed 500 children with a pipe bomb honest-to-god asked for forgiveness and was sorry for what he did, he would be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven, while the athiest cop who arrested him would burn in Hell.

I know this may not seem fair, but if you believe in Christ, then think about it: He gave us every single thing in existance. He gave us every blade of grass, every tree, every second of life. You owe him something.
 
Juggers said:
In other words, even Christan's can go to hell if they continue a life of sin.
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A Christian who has truly been saved and is truly forgiven, and has truly asked for forgiveness, woudln't continue a life of sin. The thoughts in your heart do not translate to acts of sin. If you have horrible urges in your heart, that is bad, but if you control them and don't dwell on them, God forgives you for them. If you wantonly, knowingly sin and just say, "Hey God, forgive me?", it doesn't work that way. You have to want God to forgive you, and to want that, you have to know you're wrong.
 
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Andithilion said:
A Christian who has truly been saved and is truly forgiven, and has truly asked for forgiveness, woudln't continue a life of sin. The thoughts in your heart do not translate to acts of sin. If you have horrible urges in your heart, that is bad, but if you control them and don't dwell on them, God forgives you for them. If you wantonly, knowingly sin and just say, "Hey God, forgive me?", it doesn't work that way. You have to want God to forgive you, and to want that, you have to know you're wrong.
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Well said. However, thoughts can become sinful...what if you are really really thinking about killing someone....or having sex with someone, aren't you committing a sinful act mentally, just by thinking of it? Didn't Jesus say that you shouldn't even be thinking of such thoughts. This being on purpose. I think even a person who accepted Christ can continue a life of sin and then go to Hell. But I see your point though. A true Christian is not a one time thing, being Christian is a life-time commitment.
 
Juggers i think there are two types of people,the ones who don't want to accept that this life is all there is,ive heard countless times people say BUT THEREs GOT TO BE SOMETHING AFTER,why does there have to be something after,because we can comprehend that one day we will grow old and die scares people and religion of any sort gives them the strength to deal with that.

On the other side there are people who accept that one day they will die and this life is all there is.

I can list dozens of other reasons.

Andithilion a bit like when the IRA used to murder people then go to church and ask for forgiveness?

Do you not find it strange that the majority of the great minds of our time are athiest,men and women who can comprehend things most of us couldn't.
 
prince Albert said:
Juggers i think there are two types of people,the ones who don't want to accept that this life is all there is,ive heard countless times people say BUT THEREs GOT TO BE SOMETHING AFTER,why does there have to be something after,because we can comprehend that one day we will grow old and die scares people and religion of any sort gives them the strength to deal with that.

On the other side there are people who accept that one day they will die and this life is all there is.

I can list dozens of other reasons.

Andithilion a bit like when the IRA used to murder people then go to church and ask for forgiveness?

Do you not find it strange that the majority of the great minds of our time are athiest,men and women who can comprehend things most of us couldn't.
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Yes, and it is just like Men to be lovers of knowledge and themselves...I am not suprised. Like I have been saying before it is a choice one makes on their own, to beleive or not.
 
Juggers said:
Well said. However, thoughts can become sinful...what if you are really really thinking about killing someone....or having sex with someone, aren't you committing a sinful act mentally, just by thinking of it? Didn't Jesus say that you shouldn't even be thinking of such thoughts. This being on purpose. I think even a person who accepted Christ can continue a life of sin and then go to Hell. But I see your point though. A true Christian is not a one time thing, being Christian is a life-time commitment.
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I agree, but it's the dwelling on the thought that is sinful. If you have a flash thought of screwing a 15 year old when you're married, that's not a sin. If you masturbate in bed at night to it, or picture the 15 year old while screwing your wife, that's sinful.

prince Albert said:
Andithilion a bit like when the IRA used to murder people then go to church and ask for forgiveness?

Do you not find it strange that the majority of the great minds of our time are athiest,men and women who can comprehend things most of us couldn't.
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I don't think religion has that much to do with intelligence. Like I said, being a Christian is a matter of faith. I mean, I have an IQ of between 150-160 (I hate IQ tests, they flunctuate too much), and I'm a devout Christian. Now, I'm not saying I'm as smart as, say, Einstein or Newton or anything, just that I'm a pretty intelligent person who still believes in God.

Also, as for the IRA, it doesn't work that way. I couldn't bash someone's head in, say, "Sorry, God" and then just go about my merry way. It takes true forgiveness in your heart for it to work, and if you repeatedly do it, then you're not sorry, and God will know it. It's all about what's in your heart; you can't hide that. If Hitler had been genuinely, GENUINELY sorry right before he died, and had asked God for forgiveness, he would have gone to Heaven. Ghandi is in Hell right now because he wasn't a Christian. See what I mean? You have to be sincere about what you want. I could ask God for forgiveness all day, but if I didn't really mean it, I would still roast in Hell.

If anyone wants to talk about this any more, or maybe talk about getting saved (or ask me any specific Christianity questions), you can message me.
 
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
 
He cares, but if he directly intervened, it would defeat the purpose of giving us Free Will. Most people say, "Why does He let us suffer?" Because the time we have on earth is insignificant compared to eternity, and this is what we must endure to enter His kingdom. Besides, He's not the one who makes us suffer. We do it to ourselves. Free will means he let's us suffer the consequences of our own actions.
 
Then you've got the people who probably make up 95% of "christians" or other religious people who sin every day of the week, go to church on sunday and start again the next week. Can anyone who has replied to this thread speaking as a "true christian" say they dont follow a similar weekly pattern? Or, are you doing like most and having premarital sex (sin), lying to friends/family (sin), having lustful thoughts (sin), etc, etc, etc.?? The flesh is weak, and we all need a divine being to overcome this right? Ah yes the infamous "shroud of toran"...the jury is still out on that one. Nobody has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was in fact the burial cloth of Jesus. Just because thousands have flocked like sheep to look at it doesn’t add any value to this arguement.

On the blind faith thing. Simply believing in something because of a feeling one gets, or because you read a book written by some guy who got his information from sources supporting his ideas....is fishy. I'd rather believe in things that I know to be fact vs. basically a history of uncomfirmed heresay and stories that have been passed down from various accounts of events which may or may not have happenend, and in turn retold, reinvented etc. Ever play the game where you sit in a circle of people, one guy starts the game by saying a phrase such as "Bob eats ham, eggs and bacon every morning then reads the wall street journal, mainly the sports colum"...then whispers it into the ear of the guy next to him? By the time the story gets down to the last person, at least a few words have been misconstrued and the story is at least partially different than it was when started. Could you imagine trying to record what may have started as accurate details of a given event in world history thousands of years before modern more accurate means of record keeping came about, and expecting the same account of the event to be accurately told centuries later? Especially when it was first told in one or more languages, then reinterpreted into other languages with bits and pieces of the story inevitably lost along the way as it was passed down along the generations?
Bible nuts pride themselves on believing in things that are hard to believe in. They think god will bless them for that. Go get your damn bible for the following, go on go get your goddamned bible!

If you want history and FACTS from the bible you’re pretty screwed. Take the book of genesis for example. In the FIRST chapter, god creates Adam & Eve at the same time. In the second chapter of genesis, god creates Adam, Adam carries on by himself for a while naming the things in gods’ creation...the animals, invents pizza, etc. Then one day Adam gets lonely and comes to god about it. God then says to Adam basically, ok I’ll provide you with a mate, plucks one of Adams’ ribs sprinkles some magic dust over it and suddenly there’s Eve. Two separate stories in the same book of the bible? Hmm. Is this a case of two different people telling two different stories of the same idea in the holy book? Word of god vs. word of man. I’ve actually asked a pastor about this conflicting story situation here. He basically said something like “oh well that’s just two different versions of the same event.” Ok, I’ll play along. But don’t go and tell me in your next breath that I should take the bible literally word for word....or when it says such and such happened, it really happened.

The “great flood” in Genesis 6: 11-13. “Noah” supposedly grabbed TWO each of approximately 10 BILLION different species of life on the planet from all the different parts of the world on ONE boat. Are we speaking figuratively again here or literally?? Again, how is a book that contains so much fiction mixed with “fact” supposed to be taken literally, as so many people seem to take it?? More likely the flood story is based on a factual event that took place somewhere around the Euphrates river. According to archaeological material I’ve read and shows I’ve seen on the History channel. Sometime around 2900 B.C. there was a storm that lasted for about six days (not 40), the river rose about 22 feet, lotsa people died....hey...natural disasters happened back THEN TOO?? Anyway, one of the survivors was a local Sumarian king named something like Zeasutra (doesn’t look too close to “Noah”), who bought a big boat, road the flood down stream, into the Persian Gulf where he ran aground, thankful for surviving he made a sacrifice on a hill and lived happily ever after. Not coincidentally similar stories have been recorded in other parts of the world throughout history. Any time mankind perseveres over natural disaster, or great strife somebody tells a story about what happened.

Exodus 14: 22-31 Moses and The Red Sea (Parting Thereof) one of my favorite fables from the bible....also spouted as fact. Thousands of Jews were supposedly enslaved by an Egyptian pharoah....no actual historical accounts of any great numbers of Jewish slaves being held in Egypt by the way, anywhere besides the bible. Moses supposedly comes to this pharoah, says “let my people go”. Mr P. Says “no” to Moses, and god supposedly lets loose 10 “plagues” on Egypt.

1) All waters in Egypt “turn to blood”, and all the fish die.
2) Frogs infest Egypt
3) Lice cover man and beast.
4) Clouds of insects attack. (Little Hitchcock-ish eh?)
5) Livestock wiped out by disease.
6) All Egyptians covered in boils.
7) Thunder, hail, fire
8) Locusts
9) Darkness for three days
10) First born of every Egyptian child dies. (There’s a KIND god.!)

Mr. P finally caves, lets Moses and the Jews free, Moses and crew wonder around in the deserts of Egypt for 40 YEARS, (leaving behind no archaeological evidence...thousands of people...40 years, food, pottery, bodies surely, etc) walk to the red sea ...which is about 50+ miles wide and who knows how deep, and he parts it, he and his people walk through the parted sea. Right. I’ve heard it said that once again this is not a LITERAL story...rather a parable/metaphor/even so far as a misinterpretation ....where the “red sea” is actually supposed to be “reed sea” or “sea of reeds”...LOL, in other words the defense being (once again in a book spouted by so many bible thumpers as the word of god and FACT)....they merely walked across a low marshy area vs. an actual parted SEA. Ok, so where’s the “miracle” in that? If there was no miracle....why such an elaborate story??

New Testament time. Jesus, did he exist? (Jesus Christ!) Even in the community of more religious people...religious archeaologists/historians who study the bible and supposed history, there are skeptics. There are in fact historical records, recorded in Rome even of an actual guy by the name of Jesus around the time he was supposed to have lived. Facts are facts though. Just because the guy or A guy named Jesus lived around the time the bible says he did....doesn’t mean he was in fact a divine person, or the son of a god. There were in fact MANY “messiahs” around the same time period. One in fact named something like “Apelonious” of a place called Tianna. Claimed by his followers to be able to heal the sick, raise the dead, walk through walls and buildings; he was also persecuted for his beliefs, brought to trial, crucified and later ascended to heaven and then returned to his followers several days later. Hmm...not the Jesus story, but in fact a very similar one. Hmm. In fact some of the same “miracles” of days gone by supposedly performed by Jesus can be seen being performed by some of these more extreme evangelical types on their money making telethons. Lame people (crippled) being made to walk, eye problems being cured, etc. Ok, so Jesus lived he probably died...I mean he was at least somewhat human right? So what really happened after he died? (Jesus 2, the Revenge) Believers often cite the “resurrection” side of the story with the fact that there was a tomb found in the region where Jesus supposedly lived, and died....and it was empty when archaeologists found it! Ok, you take a dead body and wrap it in the traditional manner of the day (in linen cloth), and leave it basically in the open. Couple thousand years go by, not even bones will be left.

Just some more food for thought. Fish and bread for the masses. Heavens please dont take everything I've just typed here as literal fact, even though I did spend a bit of time doing my homework. Remember, just because you read something that someone else read because someone else read it after hearing it was a good read doesnt mean it is in fact worth reading. Or just because millions of people have believed something to be right, does not mean it is always right. History both past and present has countless examples (holy crusades, muslim extremists, HITLER, wars, etc) of countless millions of real living, breathing fellow humans dying or being slaughtered in the name of whatever a certain group thought was right. For christ sakes, if we still thought the earth was flat, how silly would that be?
 
Andithilion said:
He cares, but if he directly intervened, it would defeat the purpose of giving us Free Will. Most people say, "Why does He let us suffer?" Because the time we have on earth is insignificant compared to eternity, and this is what we must endure to enter His kingdom. Besides, He's not the one who makes us suffer. We do it to ourselves. Free will means he let's us suffer the consequences of our own actions.
Click to expand...

Free will? Millions of children dying annually in third world countries....where's the free will there? 25 million people dying of influenza after World War 1, where's the free will? The thousands of people dying most recently in New Orleans...many of them children....where's the free will there? Dont even come back with the "it's gods will" b.s. I'm sorry, but I wont buy the lame examples of it being "gods' will" or what we have to suffer here on earth to get to heaven crap. Why are christians, or people "fortunate" enough to find religion/god the only ones worthy of gods' presence in heaven, while the rest who may not have ever even had the 'grace' of being exposed to "the word" are condemned? Yea, god loves everyone.
 
The obviously died for a reason, maybe God didn't control that, maybe he did, if they would have stayed alive after they got ill, they would have suffered, God doesn't want people to suffer, God loves everyone equally.
 
stillwantmore said:
Then you've got the people who probably make up 95% of "christians" or other religious people who sin every day of the week, go to church on sunday and start again the next week. Can anyone who has replied to this thread speaking as a "true christian" say they dont follow a similar weekly pattern? Or, are you doing like most and having premarital sex (sin), lying to friends/family (sin), having lustful thoughts (sin), etc, etc, etc.?? The flesh is weak, and we all need a divine being to overcome this right? Ah yes the infamous "shroud of toran"...the jury is still out on that one. Nobody has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was in fact the burial cloth of Jesus. Just because thousands have flocked like sheep to look at it doesn’t add any value to this arguement.

On the blind faith thing. Simply believing in something because of a feeling one gets, or because you read a book written by some guy who got his information from sources supporting his ideas....is fishy. I'd rather believe in things that I know to be fact vs. basically a history of uncomfirmed heresay and stories that have been passed down from various accounts of events which may or may not have happenend, and in turn retold, reinvented etc. Ever play the game where you sit in a circle of people, one guy starts the game by saying a phrase such as "Bob eats ham, eggs and bacon every morning then reads the wall street journal, mainly the sports colum"...then whispers it into the ear of the guy next to him? By the time the story gets down to the last person, at least a few words have been misconstrued and the story is at least partially different than it was when started. Could you imagine trying to record what may have started as accurate details of a given event in world history thousands of years before modern more accurate means of record keeping came about, and expecting the same account of the event to be accurately told centuries later? Especially when it was first told in one or more languages, then reinterpreted into other languages with bits and pieces of the story inevitably lost along the way as it was passed down along the generations?
Bible nuts pride themselves on believing in things that are hard to believe in. They think god will bless them for that. Go get your damn bible for the following, go on go get your goddamned bible!

If you want history and FACTS from the bible you’re pretty screwed. Take the book of genesis for example. In the FIRST chapter, god creates Adam & Eve at the same time. In the second chapter of genesis, god creates Adam, Adam carries on by himself for a while naming the things in gods’ creation...the animals, invents pizza, etc. Then one day Adam gets lonely and comes to god about it. God then says to Adam basically, ok I’ll provide you with a mate, plucks one of Adams’ ribs sprinkles some magic dust over it and suddenly there’s Eve. Two separate stories in the same book of the bible? Hmm. Is this a case of two different people telling two different stories of the same idea in the holy book? Word of god vs. word of man. I’ve actually asked a pastor about this conflicting story situation here. He basically said something like “oh well that’s just two different versions of the same event.” Ok, I’ll play along. But don’t go and tell me in your next breath that I should take the bible literally word for word....or when it says such and such happened, it really happened.

The “great flood” in Genesis 6: 11-13. “Noah” supposedly grabbed TWO each of approximately 10 BILLION different species of life on the planet from all the different parts of the world on ONE boat. Are we speaking figuratively again here or literally?? Again, how is a book that contains so much fiction mixed with “fact” supposed to be taken literally, as so many people seem to take it?? More likely the flood story is based on a factual event that took place somewhere around the Euphrates river. According to archaeological material I’ve read and shows I’ve seen on the History channel. Sometime around 2900 B.C. there was a storm that lasted for about six days (not 40), the river rose about 22 feet, lotsa people died....hey...natural disasters happened back THEN TOO?? Anyway, one of the survivors was a local Sumarian king named something like Zeasutra (doesn’t look too close to “Noah”), who bought a big boat, road the flood down stream, into the Persian Gulf where he ran aground, thankful for surviving he made a sacrifice on a hill and lived happily ever after. Not coincidentally similar stories have been recorded in other parts of the world throughout history. Any time mankind perseveres over natural disaster, or great strife somebody tells a story about what happened.

Exodus 14: 22-31 Moses and The Red Sea (Parting Thereof) one of my favorite fables from the bible....also spouted as fact. Thousands of Jews were supposedly enslaved by an Egyptian pharoah....no actual historical accounts of any great numbers of Jewish slaves being held in Egypt by the way, anywhere besides the bible. Moses supposedly comes to this pharoah, says “let my people go”. Mr P. Says “no” to Moses, and god supposedly lets loose 10 “plagues” on Egypt.

1) All waters in Egypt “turn to blood”, and all the fish die.
2) Frogs infest Egypt
3) Lice cover man and beast.
4) Clouds of insects attack. (Little Hitchcock-ish eh?)
5) Livestock wiped out by disease.
6) All Egyptians covered in boils.
7) Thunder, hail, fire
8) Locusts
9) Darkness for three days
10) First born of every Egyptian child dies. (There’s a KIND god.!)

Mr. P finally caves, lets Moses and the Jews free, Moses and crew wonder around in the deserts of Egypt for 40 YEARS, (leaving behind no archaeological evidence...thousands of people...40 years, food, pottery, bodies surely, etc) walk to the red sea ...which is about 50+ miles wide and who knows how deep, and he parts it, he and his people walk through the parted sea. Right. I’ve heard it said that once again this is not a LITERAL story...rather a parable/metaphor/even so far as a misinterpretation ....where the “red sea” is actually supposed to be “reed sea” or “sea of reeds”...LOL, in other words the defense being (once again in a book spouted by so many bible thumpers as the word of god and FACT)....they merely walked across a low marshy area vs. an actual parted SEA. Ok, so where’s the “miracle” in that? If there was no miracle....why such an elaborate story??

New Testament time. Jesus, did he exist? (Jesus Christ!) Even in the community of more religious people...religious archeaologists/historians who study the bible and supposed history, there are skeptics. There are in fact historical records, recorded in Rome even of an actual guy by the name of Jesus around the time he was supposed to have lived. Facts are facts though. Just because the guy or A guy named Jesus lived around the time the bible says he did....doesn’t mean he was in fact a divine person, or the son of a god. There were in fact MANY “messiahs” around the same time period. One in fact named something like “Apelonious” of a place called Tianna. Claimed by his followers to be able to heal the sick, raise the dead, walk through walls and buildings; he was also persecuted for his beliefs, brought to trial, crucified and later ascended to heaven and then returned to his followers several days later. Hmm...not the Jesus story, but in fact a very similar one. Hmm. In fact some of the same “miracles” of days gone by supposedly performed by Jesus can be seen being performed by some of these more extreme evangelical types on their money making telethons. Lame people (crippled) being made to walk, eye problems being cured, etc. Ok, so Jesus lived he probably died...I mean he was at least somewhat human right? So what really happened after he died? (Jesus 2, the Revenge) Believers often cite the “resurrection” side of the story with the fact that there was a tomb found in the region where Jesus supposedly lived, and died....and it was empty when archaeologists found it! Ok, you take a dead body and wrap it in the traditional manner of the day (in linen cloth), and leave it basically in the open. Couple thousand years go by, not even bones will be left.

Just some more food for thought. Fish and bread for the masses. Heavens please dont take everything I've just typed here as literal fact, even though I did spend a bit of time doing my homework. Remember, just because you read something that someone else read because someone else read it after hearing it was a good read doesnt mean it is in fact worth reading. Or just because millions of people have believed something to be right, does not mean it is always right. History both past and present has countless examples (holy crusades, muslim extremists, HITLER, wars, etc) of countless millions of real living, breathing fellow humans dying or being slaughtered in the name of whatever a certain group thought was right. For christ sakes, if we still thought the earth was flat, how silly would that be?
Click to expand...

Wow, Stillwantmore, you really wrote a book! Trouble is, you didn't do your homework. Sorry to tell you that your arguements are very weak. I don't like these type of forum pages because often they become personal not neutral.

There is history to prove the bible to be true. The copies we have are accurate and they have been proved accurate over the years. As you said, just because someone says something or writes something doesn't make it so. Thus, because you or I write something doesn't make it so. Your statments have been researched from your prospective and you believed what someone wrote. You followed their arguements and debates and wrote as if they were telling your the truth. You, undoubtedly, believed them and thus wrote and write as if they were truth. Unfortunately, They didn't tell you the truth and so now you are believing what they told you. It would take a long time to write out what is the truth and go through these points of yours item by item.

My question is: Do you want answers? If you do, I will take time and answer every one of your questions and objections. If you are just blowing smoke then it would not be worth my time or yours. Unfortunately much of what is written is biased by churchy stuff that is not accurate or even close. Just because it is religious or so called, doesn't make it so. One example that you mentioned is the Shroud of Turin. Of course it is a fake. It is a religious hocus pocus. Anyone that knows anything knows that is true. So, we give you that one. What does that prove. Nothing. Just that a bunch of people run around spouting about this cloth that was supposed to be the one they wrapped Jesus in....when it wasn't an no evidence really shows it was.

I throw this back to your court. For the record, I respect you highly in the Penis Enlargement field. You have helped me greatly and I am thankful for all you do and have done. Thanks for listening. GS
 
GS, I'm curious how you go about finding "truth" in your view (ie. epistemology).

You state the Bible is true, what do you mean by this?
 
I would imagine there are thousands of things in our past that left no archeological proof behind them. Nature is a very destructive force. The pottery they made thousands of years ago was mostly redware, earthenware, etc. Erosion COULD grind that down to nothing. I believe that the bible, when taken literally, can seem very unbelievable. This is one example of what I think is a good example of the figurative use of the bible (once again, in my opinion):

God said, "Let there be light." - Big Bang

That is what I believe. I believe God was the driving force behind all of the things science has proven over the past few hundred years. And as for free will letting people die of influenza after a war and millions of children starving - it's the world we've created. I never said you get a direct say in your own fate under free will, just that God won't intervene to protect people unless they have a greater purpose that He needs them to serve. I believe people not exposed to the Word in any way are given some sort of chance. Maybe they are reincarnated, maybe not - who knows? As for the "God's will b.s.", I'm afraid I will have to put that one out there. I have no idea why so many innocent people die - God does. Like I've said before, life on this earth is insignificant when compared to the power of the Force. ...to eternity in heaven. (Sorry, it's like 6 am). It's not about suffering to get into heaven, it's more about us living in a harsh world, and having the sense to build in a place that's below sea level just off a coast. I don't think it's that Christians are the only ones 'worthy' of entering heaven; they're no more worthy than anyone else. They're just the ones who found the Light, and were willing to ask Christ for forgiveness.

As for me being a "true" christian and whatnot, I'm an 18 year old virgin, and I plan to wait until I am married to have sex. I do not lie (I loathe lying more than I hate anything else, mainly because of how much I've been lied to), and I try to keep as many sinful thoughts out of my head as possible. But like I've said before - it becomes sin when you dwell on it and let it control you. A thought flashing into your head doesn't make you a sinner. Thinking about it constantly and wanting to do it and thinking about doing it makes you a sinner.

One last thing - Everyone tries so hard to prove that Christianity isn't real. I have never seen a single piece of evidence that is hardcore PROOF that it's false. And I know that's probably impossible - mainly because, if that were the case, this argument would be moot. And I'll also say this - most people on this forum seem very intelligent (You wouldn't figure you'd find that on a penis enlargement forum, would ya?). When you're an intelligent person, it's very hard to believe in God. Your mind doesn't want to wrap itself around something so esoteric and unsolid. It's probably easier for me, since I'm a writer and usually have a pretty elastic perception of things - I'm good at seeing different sides of situations and different points of view. But what it almost always comes down to is this: You can make arguments against something, arguments for something, but in the end, no one will EVER fully agree on which is right. There will always be Christians saying that it's true, and always be athiests (or agnostics) saying it's BS. The most enlightened people, I think, are the third party - The Christians and athiests/agnostics who get along, work together, hang out together, and don't think "THey're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong" the whole time, letting their religion keep them from knowing one another. The whole point of Christianity is tolerance. People like those fire and brimstone preachers on TV Give us all a bad name.

I don't go to church regularly. I'm lucky if I go 5 times a year. Not because I don't care. The reason I don't go to church is that I'm a mild sociophobe. I'm scared of meeting new people. I feel anxious around them, and don't like public situations when I'm not with a friend. You'll never see me wandering the mall alone unless I go STRAIGHT to what I want to buy, get it, and leave immediately. So, I don't go to church. Another reason I don't go to church is because there are so many fake Christians there. As SWM said. These people also give us a bad name.

I know of a certain guy - he and his brother witness constantly at concerts and shit, random Christianity drives, if you want to call them that (I do it, hehe). They both plan to be preachers when they get older.

One beats his girlfriend.
The other raped his while they were dating.

Sound Christian to you? It sure doesn't to me. I can't even be around these guys without getting angry, which is one reason I don't go to their church. I can't go to another church because there's a couple there, who constantly spout at me, "Go to church more!" and then run off to screw in his truck before/after church, while waiting on her little sister to come out so they can take her for ice cream. Yeah, stupid, yeah, unChristian, yeah, infuriating. I hate it.

Okay, okay, I've been rambling for a bit here. But Let me say this one last thing: This thread will never be conclusive. Ever. It will either die down eventually, or get locked. I just hope we keep it civil (I've seen similar threads in the past become bloody fueds that last for centuries). I've enjoyed writing here so far, but I can honestly say that if it becomes a battle for 'Who's right' instead of just a discussion, I'm out. Because I get caustic and very angry when people start doing the whole "Nuh-uh" thing and trying to prove they're right regardless, and I don't feel like getting in trouble. So...erm...God bless.
 
See my main thing here is, I love a good debate....when there are intelligent answers from both sides coming in...vs just simple minded ones like you might see elsewhere. I'm not trying to totally undermine or insult anyone with my replies, I'm just trying to get reactions because I like to see all the cards....get feedback from all sides. The best way to get that is to get people to think by asking questions that challenge their beliefs, or whatever they may have accepted as truths up until a certain point. I love to investigate things even if I think I already know the answers, or that what someone has told me sounds totally logical, and true beyond doubt. It's like getting a second or third opinion when your doctor says you have something wrong with you vs. simply accepting whatever fate he may dish out.

Andithilion, wow man, I have to say I do have respect for the person you portray yourself to be. Even though this is just anonymous postings on an internet forum you seem like a very cool headed individual with a good head on your shoulders. Most people in your age group are not so level headed, or willing to express your views in such a thought out manner.

German by all means share any information you wish. I'm not saying I'm going to jump on your bandwagon, but again I do enjoy seeing things from all sides possible.
 
I find it hard to believe that an all powerful, all knowing God would make himself known to a few people at the begining of time, and expect the world to believe these few people. Much less condemn a good person to hell for all of eternity just because they didn't get it.

Preachers love to say 'No matter how good you are, you will not enter heaven unless you believe in JC as your savior'. What if you are a wonderful person that does everything possible to find faith in JC, but just doesn't get it in the end? I just don't think God would be that black and white about the rest of eternity.

God: WHAT'S THAT SOLDIER?!?! YOU TRIED!?!?!? WELL TRY NOT TO GET TOO HOT AS YOU BURN IN HELL FOR ALL OF ETERNITY!!!!!
 
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