Recent Medical Studies on Circumcision







Circumcision Policy Influenced by Psychosocial Factors

The debate about the advisability of circumcision in English-speaking countries typically has focused on potential health factors. The position statements of committees from national medical organisations are expected to be evidence-based; however, the contentiousness of the ongoing debate suggests that other factors are involved. Various potential factors related to psychology, sociology, religion, and culture may also underlie policy decisions. These factors could affect the values and attitudes of medical committee members, the process of evaluating the medical literature, and the medical literature itself. Although medical professionals highly value rationality, it can be difficult to conduct a rational and objective evaluation of an emotional and controversial topic such as circumcision. A negotiated compromise between polarized committee factions could introduce additional psychosocial factors. These possibilities are speculative, not conclusive. It is recommended that an open discussion of psychosocial factors take place and that the potential biases of committee members be recognized.

Goldman, R., “Circumcision Policy: A Psychosocial Perspective,” Paediatrics & Child Health 9 (2004): 630-633.





Circumcision is Not Good Health Policy

A cost-utility analysis, based on published data from multiple observational studies, comparing boys circumcised at birth and those not circumcised was undertaken using the Quality of Well-being Scale, a Markov analysis, the standard reference case, and a societal perspective. Neonatal circumcision increased incremental costs by $828.42 per patient and resulted in an incremental 15.30 well-years lost per 1000 males. If neonatal circumcision was cost-free, pain-free, and had no immediate complications, it was still more costly than not circumcising. Using sensitivity analysis, it was impossible to arrange a scenario that made neonatal circumcision cost-effective. Neonatal circumcision is not good health policy, and support for it as a medical procedure cannot be justified financially or medically.

Van Howe, R., “A Cost-Utility Analysis of Neonatal Circumcision,” Medical Decision Making 24 (2004):584-601.





Circumcision Results in Significant Loss of Erogenous Tissue

A report published in the British Journal of Urology assessed the type and amount of tissue missing from the adult circumcised penis by examining adult foreskins obtained at autopsy. Investigators found that circumcision removes about one-half of the erogenous tissue on the penile shaft. The foreskin, according to the study, protects the head of the penis and is comprised of unique zones with several kinds of specialized nerves that are important to optimum sexual sensitivity.

Taylor, J. et al., "The Prepuce: Specialized Mucosa of the Penis and Its Loss to Circumcision," BJU 77 (1996): 291–295.



Circumcision Affects Sexual Behavior

A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that circumcision provided no significant prophylactic benefit and that circumcised men were more likely to engage in various sexual practices. Specifically, circumcised men were significantly more likely to masturbate and to participate in heterosexual oral sex than uncircumcised men.

Laumann, E. et al., "Circumcision in the U.S.: Prevalence, Prophylactic Effects, and Sexual Practice," JAMA 277 (1997): 1052–1057.



Researchers Demonstrate Traumatic Effects of Circumcision

A team of Canadian researchers produced new evidence that circumcision has long-lasting traumatic effects. An article published in the international medical journal The Lancet reported the effect of infant circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The researchers tested 87 infants at 4 months or 6 months of age. The boys who had been circumcised were more sensitive to pain than the uncircumcised boys. Differences between groups were significant regarding facial action, crying time, and assessments of pain.

The authors believe that "neonatal circumcision may induce long-lasting changes in infant pain behavior because of alterations in the infant’s central neural processing of painful stimuli." They also write that "the long-term consequences of surgery done without anaesthesia are likely to include post-traumatic stress as well as pain. It is therefore possible that the greater vaccination response in the infants circumcised without anaesthesia may represent an infant analogue of a post-traumatic stress disorder triggered by a traumatic and painful event and re-experienced under similar circumstances of pain during vaccination."

Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," The Lancet 349 (1997): 599–603.



Circumcision Study Halted Due to Trauma

Researchers found circumcision so traumatic that they ended the study early rather than subject any more infants to the operation without anesthesia. Those infants circumcised without anesthesia experienced not only severe pain, but also an increased risk of choking and difficulty breathing. The findings were published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Up to 96% of infants in some areas of the United States receive no anesthesia during circumcision. No anesthetic currently in use for circumcisions is effective during the most painful parts of the procedure.

Lander, J. et al., "Comparison of Ring Block, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block, and Topical Anesthesia for Neonatal Circumcision," JAMA 278 (1997): 2157–2162.



Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys

The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during the first three years of life, according to a report in the British Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be discouraged.

Van Howe, R., "Variability in Penile Appearance and Penile Findings: A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776–782.



Poll of Circumcised Men Reveals Harm

A poll of circumcised men published in the British Journal of Urology describes adverse outcomes on men’s health and well-being. Findings showed wide-ranging physical, sexual, and psychological consequences. Some respondents reported prominent scarring and excessive skin loss. Sexual consequences included progressive loss of sensitivity and sexual dysfunction. Emotional distress followed the realization that they were missing a functioning part of their penis. Low-self esteem, resentment, avoidance of intimacy, and depression were also noted.

Hammond, T., "A Preliminary Poll of Men Circumcised in Infancy or Childhood," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1: 85–92



Psychological Effects of Circumcision Studied

An article titled "The Psychological Impact of Circumcision" reports that circumcision results in behavioral changes in infants and long-term unrecognized psychological effects on men. The piece reviews the medical literature on infants’ responses to circumcision and concludes, "there is strong evidence that circumcision is overwhelmingly painful and traumatic." The article notes that infants exhibit behavioral changes after circumcision, and some men have strong feelings of anger, shame, distrust, and grief about having been circumcised. In addition, circumcision has been shown to disrupt the mother-infant bond, and some mothers report significant distress after allowing their son to be circumcised. Psychological factors perpetuate circumcision. According to the author, "defending circumcision requires minimizing or dismissing the harm and producing overstated medical claims about protection from future harm. The ongoing denial requires the acceptance of false beliefs and misunderstanding of facts. These psychological factors affect professionals, members of religious groups, and parents involved in the practice."


Expressions from circumcised men are generally lacking because most circumcised men do not understand what circumcision is, emotional repression keeps feelings from awareness, or men may be aware of these feelings but afraid of disclosure.

Goldman, R., "The Psychological Impact of Circumcision," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1: 93–102



Serious Consequences of Circumcision Trauma in Adult Men Clinically Observed

Using four case examples that are typical among his clients, a practicing psychiatrist presents clinical findings regarding the serious and sometimes disabling long-term somatic, emotional, and psychological consequences of infant circumcision in adult men. These consequences resemble complex post-traumatic stress disorder and emerge during psychotherapy focused on the resolution of perinatal and developmental trauma. Adult symptoms associated with circumcision trauma include shyness, anger, fear, powerlessness, distrust, low self-esteem, relationship difficulties, and sexual shame. Long-term psychotherapy dealing with early trauma resolution appears to be effective in healing these consequences.


Rhinehart, J., "Neonatal Circumcision Revistited," Transactional Analysis Journal 29 (1999): 215-221





Anatomy and Function of the Foreskin Documented

A new article describes the foreskin (prepuce) as an integral, normal part of the genitals of mammals. It is specialized, protective, erogenous tissue. A description of the complex nerve structure of the penis explains why anesthetics provide incomplete pain relief during circumcision. Cutting off the foreskin removes many fine-touch receptors from the penis and results in thickening and desensitization of the glans outer layer. The complex anatomy and function of the foreskin dictate that circumcision should be avoided or deferred until the person can make an informed decision as an adult.

Cold, C. and Taylor, J., "The Prepuce," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1: 34–44.



Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment

A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men. Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.

O’Hara, K. and O’Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on the Sexual Enjoyment of the Female Partner," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1: 79–84




Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated

Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences, too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors.

Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.




Surveys Reveal Adverse Sexual and Psychological Effects of Circumcision


A survey of the 35 female and 42 gay sexual partners of circumcised and genitally intact men, and a separate survey of 53 circumcised and genitally intact men, and a separate survey of 30 genitally intact men themselves indicated that circumcised men experienced significantly reduced sexual sensation along with associated long-lasting negative emotional consequences.

Boyle, G. and Bensley, G., "Adverse Sexual and Psychological Effects of Male Infant Circumcision,". Psychological Reports 88 (2001): 1105-1106.



Foreskin Reduces the Force Required for Penetration and Increases Comfort


Masters and Johnson observed that the foreskin unrolled with intercourse. However, they overlooked a prior observation that intromission (i.e., penetration) was thereby made easier. To evaluate this observation an artificial introitus was mounted on scales. Repeated measurements showed a 10-fold reduction of force on entry with an initially unretracted foreskin as compared to entry with a retracted foreskin. For the foreskin to reduce the force required it must cover most of the glans when the penis is erect.

Taves, D., "The Intromission Function of the Foreskin," Med Hypotheses 59 (2002): 180.



Survey of Men Circumcised as Adults Shows Mixed Results


Men circumcised as adults were surveyed to assess erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and overall satisfaction. Over 80% of these men were circumcised to treat a medical problem. The response rate was 44% among potential responders. Mean age of responders was 42 years at circumcision and 46 years at survey. Adult circumcision appears to result in worsened erectile function, decreased penile sensitivity, no change in sexual activity, and improved satisfaction. Of the men 50% reported benefits and 38% reported harm. Overall, 62% of men were satisfied with having been circumcised. Note: Results may be affected by the fact that there was no sample of normal, healthy, intact men for comparison.

Fink, K., Carson, C., DeVellis, R., "Adult Circumcision Outcomes Study: Effect on Erectile Function, Penile Sensitivity, Sexual Activity and Satisfaction," J Urol 167 (2002): 2113-2116.



Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness


The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged 18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.

Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.



Early Adverse Experiences May Lead to Abnormal Brain Development and Behavior

Self-destructive behavior in current society promotes a search for psychobiological factors underlying this epidemic. The brain of the newborn infant is particularly vulnerability to early adverse experiences, leading to abnormal development and behavior. Although several investigations have correlated newborn complications with abnormal adult behavior, our understanding of the underlying mechanisms remains rudimentary. Models of early experience, such as repetitive pain, sepsis, or maternal separation in rodents and other species have noted multiple alterations in the adult brain, correlated with specific behavioral types depending on the timing and nature of the adverse experience. The mechanisms mediating such changes in the newborn brain have remained largely unexplored. Maternal separation, sensory isolation (understimulation), and exposure to extreme or repetitive pain (overstimulation) may cause altered brain development. (Circumcision is described as an intervention with long-term neurobehavioral effects.) These changes promote two distinct behavioral types characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, stress disorders, hyperactivity/attention deficit disorder, leading to impaired social skills and patterns of self-destructive behavior. The clinical importance of these mechanisms lies in the prevention of early adverse experiences and effective treatment of newborn pain and stress.

Anand, K. and Scalzo, F., "Can Adverse Neonatal Experiences Alter Brain Development and Subsequent Behavior? Biol Neonate 77 (2000): 69-82.

Note from Kong: Most of these medical "findings" seem to be easily answerable using common sense, but medical science in the US seems to heed the call of profit more often than knowledge...

What do you say now, Swank? Still clinging to your preconcieved notions with the same hysterical close-mindedness? These are excerpts from actual scholarly peer-reviewed research papers and studies.

I am interested in hearing your college-educated (read "ominscient" :D ) opinion. I am sure however-- from past experience -- that you will merely declare these research articles bunk or resort to personal attacks.
 
Last edited:
Kong, there is indeed some interesting information here.

Would you please post the links to the articles where you found the quotes so that I can read them in their full context?

Also, I have never argued that it does not cause infant pain (though I know that due to the nature of neurobiology we cannot and do not remember anything from this age - otherwise the trauma of childbirth would never wear off. The brain is incapable of retaining experiences from this age) or that it is a somehow necessary procedure. Quite the opposite, I agree there is no real reason for it except social tradition.

To be clear: It is my contention that circumcision does not cause significant sexual or health problems for most men that have the procedure.

It is also my contention that FR does not increas penis size or necessarily intensify orgasms/increase female pleasure (for explanations on these look at past threads regarding FR where I have debated Kong).

Please post the links, thanks.
 
Last edited:
Not to get into the middle of your all's debate. The one thing I noticed more than anything was this line;

"Specifically, circumcised men were significantly more likely to masturbate and to participate in heterosexual oral sex than uncircumcised men."

Does that mean that us cut guys are more likely to get head than uncut guys? If that's the case, I love me some head! Sorry Kong, I wouldn't trade my 3-4 times a week BJ's for 5 forskins. But, I have been experimenting just with the taping to help stretch skin and to maybe regain a little sensitivity. If I am misreading this part Kong, please correct me.

Just kooky' 2 cents
 
Actually...damn bad post, kong.

First, why OH WHY do you have to say stupid SHIT:

"What do you say now, Swank? Still clinging to your preconcieved notions with the same hysterical close-mindedness? These are excerpts from actual scholarly peer-reviewed research papers and studies.

I am interested in hearing your college-educated (read "ominscient" ) opinion. I am sure however-- from past experience -- that you will merely declare these research articles bunk or resort to personal attacks."

Actually, I can clearly see your college-educated post is superior...that's omNIscient. But getting away from the "personal attacks"...must you be that ignorant that your stupidity takes control of your brain because clearly Swank did not have one comment like that to you. You ALWAYS seem to have the need to insult people or make disparaging comments when they question you or your information. Im sorry, I forgot...you are "that foreskin guy" sheesh...I should have realized your true awesomeness and that since I am circumcised I am nowhere near being a man, I am but a female with a chopped-off clit because the clit and the foreskin removed from circumcision are the same, remember? :hammer: YOU ARE THE ONE WHO RESORTS TO Penis EnlargementRSONAL ATTACKS BECAUSE YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT AND YOU CANT TAKE SOMEONE CRITICIZING YOUR SOURCES AND INFORMATION. :bootyshak :bootyshak :bootyshak :bootyshak :bootyshak :yes: :bootyshak :blasting: :blasting: :blasting: :banghead: :finger:

Ah yes...studies, studies, and more studies. Studies are everywhere. There is one study that shows chocolate will cure coughing. There is another study that explains how both male and female students from the ages of 10-24 do 39% better educationally because their ear-obes are not attached to their heads, unlike those without attached or "free" earlobes. Another study shows that cell phone radiation killed brain cells in lab rats...it actually lets brain cells come into contact with neurons from the radiation and voila! It could possibly be the same for humans and scientists breifly stated to not "gab on the cell phone too often". The last study I am going to bring forth is the study that concluded that drinking 8 oz. of ice water after exercise could burn over 150 calories than drinking tap water or cool water. Im gonna market that shit...$19.99 for a plastic bottle that has an "8 oz. line" for the water, and you just add several ice cubes and drinking that will make you burn 150 calories.

What I am getting at, is the insane amount of "studies" performed all the time, all over the world are ludicrous (not all of them). Going back and re-reading those "studies" you call, I cant help but laugh. Just because there is a study performed somewhere, or a book or an article written from a scientist, or where there are credits given for the study, doesnt mean that everything should be believed to the fullest extent. Also:

"...Adult symptoms associated with circumcision trauma include shyness, anger, fear, powerlessness, distrust, low self-esteem, relationship difficulties, and sexual shame. Long-term psychotherapy dealing with early trauma resolution appears to be effective in healing these consequences..."

You know, kong, it sorta sounds like you are one of those adults. Maybe you shouldnt feel powerless or have a low-self esteem. There is such a high rate of variability on the controls in these studies that if you read them and think about them, hopefully people will see what I am talking about. No, I am not going to give the credits for the studies that I mentioned, nor am I going to nit-pick every study that you posted, kong because it is getting late and i need to get started on my heroin fueled bender.
 
aares, by resorting to criticizing my typing, you show just how petty you are being, not to mention the two lines of insulting emoticons. Time to grow up! These are exactly the sort of personal attacks that made me so defensive! Believe me, you are not the first.

kooky, what you are refering to does not mean that men get more blowjobs when they are circumcised, only that they request it of their mate more. Can you guess why?

swank, I'm really done debating this with you. I have no more interest in whether you believe or not. I have satisfied all your requests for proof and yet you ask for even more. Do you want me to Fedex you all those reports, journals, magazines and texts? Are you willing to pay the shipping? Would it even matter in the end? Your mind is hopelessly closed. Have a good life.
 
I am sorry Kong but I still don't get it or read it the same way you do. The part of that study that you listed does not say WHY cut men were, "significantly more likely to masturbate and to participate in heterosexual oral sex than uncircumcised men. " it just says that they do. It made no reference to WHY that is. Maybe that is in another study or maybe it's not. I am only talking about the specific one that you listed. That particular one makes absolutely no referencs as to why. It also says in the previous line that, "circumcised men were more likely to engage in various sexual practices" and then the next line says, "Specifically, circumcised men were significantly more likely to masturbate and to participate in heterosexual oral sex than uncircumcised men.". Which I find kind of funny because wasn't one of the original reason for the common practice in this country was to keep little boys from masturbating? I do not mean to nit-pick you here or your believes and I as well find the modern day practice of these to be almost barbaric and I am not convinced of the absolute need for this practice to continue and I have no plans of doing this should I ever have a son. My original post was meant to draw a laugh but I know for me and Mrs. kooky, I get more head now than I would if I restored and I personally like the way it looks more. But, I also agree with you that there is no doubt that cut mean loose a great deal of sensitivity but I guess I am lucky that it never got as bad for me as you say it did for you. That is why I am experimenting with the tape and I also believe that this will help a great deal with skin stretch and will aid with future Penis Enlargement gains. But also Kong, to be as respectful as I can here, you must realize how offensive you can come off sounding calling all cut men
"psuedo-males". You must realize how offensive this can be for those of us who don't neccaserily measure "manhood" by our units. Many of us consider "being a man" things like taking care of your wife and kids, being a hardworker and a value to society, being a good family member and helping other when you can. For most of us who are cut and who still try to live as a "man" it can be very offesive for someone to call you a "psuedo-male" espescially when I can promise you that there are many uncut men who do not take care of their family and are a wart on the face of society.

kookmeister
 
You are perfectly right, kooky. As an "Intactivist" I have to come off a little bit strong to get a reaction out of folks and to maybe make them think about it. If I was mild and quiet, most folks wouldn't give it a passing thought. Yes, I am dedicated and truly believe what I say, but I know it may come across as offensive at times. I think most open-minded men like yourselves kind of know what I am doing and so can let it pass. Mainly what I aim for in my posts is to make my ideas "stick" in the brain, whether it is insulting someone who is close-minded and uneducated about circumcision, like swank and aares, or merely to entertain those like you, kooky, who are open to it but not necessarily passionate.
 
Oh, believe me Kong, I quite understand how it is to really be passionate about something you believe in and what to open the eyes of others around you. I am convinced enough about how needless it is and to not ever want to have it done should I ever have a son. But I am not prepared to go all out and try to restore myself. But like I have said, I am interested in going through the process of taping at night and also I believe that the slight skin stretch this will give will aid in my Penis Enlargement goals. Let me give you a very real example Kong of how some of this can come off as offesive. Before I start off, every bit of what I am about to say is 100% true and not embellished one bit. It is a story from my own life and I am sure many may have others like it.

I know this girl who dated a guy named "Bob" we'll say. Now, I have known this girl almost all my adult life. She has told me that "Bob" is uncut. She and Bob had a baby together. They broke up and Bob has never paid one cent in child support, has never paid any bills for medical expenses or insurance for his child and has actually pawned some of the child's toys for drug money. And he rarely, if ever, wants to try and spend time with his child or even keep the child when the mother has to work and he doesn't.

I on the other hand am cut. I also have a child with my first wife and I have never ever missed a child support payment or have let any insurance premiums slip on my child. I pay all of her medical expenses and half of her clothing bills for school. I spend as much time as possible with my child and keep her as much as I can.

Now, by almost any other definition I am much more the "man" than our friend "Bob". But by what you have said, compared to him I am a "pseudo-male". I got news for you Kong, and please don't take this the wrong way, but if anyone ever tried to imply that "Bob" was much more of a man than I am, he and I would have to have a much deeper discussion about it outside. It is offensive, insulting, and disrespectful to all the time and effort and more importantly LOVE I give my child while "Bob" acts as if he is bothered and put out because his child only wants to spend a small amount of time with his dad.

I hope this gets the point across Kong. I really do because I think you are very much a credit to this board and you have always seemed to help anyone who has had serious questions about what you believe in so passionately. I hope maybe you can find a happy medium between making a point and being passionate about your beliefs, and going across as a disrespective, offensive jerk who is only out to insult people. And one last thing, I know you never meant to be so offensive at times, and I also don't think you are saying what you say with the intent to piss people off.

kook
 
With anything written, there is intent and then there is comprehension. Circumcision removes 30 to 50% of the surface flesh of the penis and denudes the organ or many valuable structures. That, in my mind, would put the victim of the procedure in the category of "psuedo-male" in a strictly anatomical view. However, "male" and "man" have a countless array of meanings. However, when speaking about FR, I am, in essence, talking about anatomy most of the time. I think that should be pretty obvious. Finally, all I can say is this: anything can be construed as offensive, if you are looking to be offended.
 
Are you suggesting that you own all of those publications and went through your personal archive and typed out quotes for me? Am I to believe that you subscribed to the BJU and Transactional Analysis Journal over six years ago?

One again, I don't think anybody, myself included, believes that. Which only confirms what I already know, which is that you're perfetly willing to bullshit in order to support your views.

Post the links and be a good sport.
 
Ever hear of "google"?

Be a good sport and do the work yourself!

I have adequately supported my view. You are only trying to frustrate me with more and more demands for proof. I'm not responding to any more of those demands. Frankly, I have written you off as hopeless, and just a pain in the ass now. Anyone who wants to see proof need only look at the countless reports and excerpts and personal anecdotes I have posted already in response to your previous demands.

I have real work to do, and lots of foreskins to save!

Have a good life and God Bless!
 
Post some links to your studies, they ought to just be in your browser history right? Why won't you do it? Maybe other men would like to read them? Where they that difficult to find (there is an enormous cache of circumcision info online, surely they're easy to find again)?

What's the problem here, it will take two minutes and just serve to strongly validate your sources. Please post the links.
 
In the meantime, here's some reading for anybody interested in this, a page full of links.

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/2754/

Keep in mind, the fellow who runs this site takes my view that all this "circumcision is the worst thing on earth" is hyperbole to say the least. His sources, however, are quite clear, and cannot be reasonably misconstrued as having a pro-circumcision origin (BBC world news or the economist are generally reliable new agencies and quite well known). The studies linked that I looked over appear to be validated research. Anway, have a look while we wait for Kong to publish some links to the articles he has taken the time to quote, but appearently has no access to.
 
You sound increasingly desperate. For someone who is purportedly "nuetral" on the issue of circumcision and doesn't see what all the hubbub is about, you are taking a positively aggressive stance. You were more convincing earlier. :s
 
BTW, I've seen that page before. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify describing what is basically a human rights movement as "fanatical". So sad... Kill some baby seals while you're at it... :D
 
I do not understand why this is such an issue. If you want to restore, restore. If not then don't. This reminds me a great deal of the DLD size issue, which is continuous. Who cares??? Kong has proven his point, with what would appear to be accurate information. Swank you have stated your arguement, and provided support as well. Who's right??? Who's wrong??? Who cares??? Just let it go. Kong I feel you about the circumcision issue, and I truly understand what it is you are talking about. Swank I still can not understand why you're so aginst restoring the foreskin. You don't have to do it, it really seems that one of two things is going on: 1. You are anti-restoration for some reason. 2. You are simply opposing Kong's viewpoint. I'm not saying that i side with kong on everything he says, but I see his point. You're talking about a man who had a terribly tight circumsision. I did not have to deal with a tight circumsision myself, I feel like it was done just fine. Although, I do feel that it should have been left up to me if it was done or not. My cousin is in med-school and has done rounds in the maternity wing of a few of the hospital and there have been instances when the parents have not been asked whether or not the child could be circumsized, that it is so common most don't even think to ask. This is indeed tragic and whether or not it is common practice is irrelevant, the fact that it is going on anywhere is a terrible thing.
 
Millionman, I have stated over and over again elsewhere (but not as much in the current debate) that I have no problem with FR if men wish to pursue it.

For the record: I am not bothered by, offended by, annoyed by, or in any way upset about the proposition of FR.

What I am posting about is what I believe to be circulation of bad information from Kong, and an attempt to counterbalance what is a very one-sided collection of information.

My main concern, as stated in other threads, is that this bad and almost always unsupported information can lead men who lead normal and happy sex lives with their circumcised penises to doubt themselves due to lack of a foreskin.

Likewise, cicrcumcised men who are experiencing any sexual or penis related problems (and I think most anybody does at some point, cut or uncut) are encouraged to automatically assume that it is related to their circumcision. They are also led to believe that FR will solve all their problems. In many cases I think this will be detrimental and distract them from really exploring the difficulty or seeking more effective treatment.

Also, I just take general issue with poorly supported arguments and information. Most of the biological arguments behind Kong's claims are dubious and often small suggestions of informational tidbits from archane studies are stretched into absurdity. One particular istance of this is the "male clitoris argument." Kong has also claimed in the past that circumcised mn with a 6 inch long penis would have been 8 inches if not for their circumcision.

Kong has fashioned himself as an authoratative figure and often dispenses sexual advice. While he's spot on with many things, I think that in the case of circumcision he's bought into a lot of bad information and ingrained in deeply into his thoughts about sexuality in general. That being said, as an influential poster, I feel he may negatively influence younger people with less ability to evalute the credibility of information (especially on the internet where standards are ungodly low) into thinking they are sexually handicapped because they are circumcised. There is no doubt that many underaged individuals probably browse these forums, and I can imagine quite a few of them might be chagrined and taken in my Kong's assertions that they can't please women and are "psuedo-males."

I believe Kong's anger at me is generally derived more from the fact that my comments undermine his self-styled "advisor/sexual authority" status more so than my lack of belief in his views. In any thread where his claims or opinions on any matter have been questioned by myself or others he tends to get surly and defensive very quickly. Though he tends not to believe me, I harbor no ill will against Kong, despite his frequent personal remarks and insults. I understand that it is just an internet forum and it's contents in no way relate to my self-confidence or well-being.

I continue to post because I personally feel that my perspective makes a contributuion to the subject and I also feel that a dissenting opion ought to be heard. As Kong continues to make claims that I find questionable, I will indeed raise my objections as I see fit, just as members would for any other topic. This is not the "We hate circumcision and it ruins your penis forum," it is the "foreskin restoration" forum. All points of view and opinions are valid.
 
By the way, since Kong has avoided the topic of providing his links and brushed the matter off, here is where he got them:

http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm

The studies are just pasted from the site verbatum, and there are no links.

I find it rather entertaining that you suggested you would have to "fed-ex" them to me at your own expense, then suggested I just google for them myself, when in fact most of them probably aren't available on line or free.

This, old buddy, shines a bit of a sickly light on your credibility. Since you have repeatedly accused me of being a desperate idiot, I would suggest you evaluate your own feelings and actions at the moment. Once again, I have my record of posts as consolation, can you say the same?
 
By the way, I will no longer be responding to ad hominem attacks (read: going after me instead of my arguments as a means of actually not addressing the issues I raise) or insults from Kong in the interest of keeping the debate on topic.

So, post as many snide remarks and slights as you see fit. Call me a moron, liar, desperate, stupid, close-minded (all recent additions to the insult collection) if it makes you feel better. All I will do is continue to remind that you have not addressed the issue.
 
swank, it is only your "OPINION" that my information is bad and unsupported. Where I have actually posted a great deal of supporting material, the only study you posted did, in fact, indirectly support my claims, which I find highly amusing.

I see that you take offense at my labeling of the frenulum as the "male clitoris" and you keep going back to this point. Do you take offense because you find this feminizing? I don't really understand your balking at this, because it is not an idea I originated. It is actually widely accepted as such in much medical literature. As my frenelum was mostly excavated during my neonatal circumcision, I do not know this for a fact. I am merely repeating it from everything that I have read. I have had some small success in causing my fren remnants to expand and regain some sensitivity, but I will never fully experience the pleasure of having a full and intact fren.

You argument that you are not pro-circ certainly falls flat. One, you are quite aggressive in your stance against FR. You cannot say that it is without merit and at the same time that you are not against it, when you are attacking it merely by saying it has no merit. Second, your argument that men who are perfectly happy with their cut cocks might be mentally disturbed by all my crazy talk is weak. If you are truly happy with your cock, FR discussion is not going to bother you.

I am not angry at you either. Your weak arguments just make me look better and better, buddy! Also, if my crudeness offends thee, take thee away from the Foreskin Restoration forum!

Finally, this IS the "We hate circumcision and it ruins your penis" forum. You're looking for the "General Discussion" forum...oh, and don't let the door hit you in the ass! :D
 
The term is used frequently in any debate as it is very common tactic for distracting from the real point, and you Kong, are a proven master of it. I use it because it applies, and I am fond of it as it takes me back to debate class in seventh grade where we learned it . . .

That being said, I am not interested in your constant assertions that my argument is weak or that I am somehow 'losing' the debate. My goal is to make my point heard, the people following the threads (if there are any) will come to their own conclusions. If it makes you feel good to repeatedly inform me that you are stomping me, than go right ahead. This, unfortunately, does not actually support your claims about circumcisons and FR, but only supports your claim that you have suppressed my point of view. Bravo.

I am not pro-circ in any respect. I just believe it is far more benign, sexually and medically, than it is made out to be by the anti-circ movement (where 99% of all you information and literature regarding the matter comes from). I could not even say whether I would have my own children undrgo the procedure, as I don't believe there is any benefit from it, and it seems the trend is moving away from most boys getting it. I would certainly insist on painblockers and discuss the issue at length with my doctor.

I have already explained my opinion on FR: I don't think that all the benefits associated with it in your posting are real. This is derived from my own knowledge and reserach of human anatomy, as well testimony from men online. This includes German Stallion, who experienced abosolutely none of the benefits you always mention, despite a fully restored foreskin. You always brush his testimony off, but it is direct experience from a restored man that directly contradicts your claims.

So, like I said, it is up to individuals to decide whether my arguments are weak, though if you feel they shouldn't have a choice in the matter continue to tell them that I am a moron and you've dominated me.

This from a man who complained about the expense of mailing me documents, journals, and reserach papers he doesn't own and has never actually seen. I am proud to say I don't make things up in the name of protecting my arguments, which people ought to consider when they read through these posts.
 
Cool! I mastered it and I didn't even know what it meant! Should have paid more attention in debate class. j/k

About me suppressing your arguments... that's laughable. Your only argument is that I'm wrong. That's it. To make yourself look even more hypocritical, you try to come across as the victim here...trying to appear as if I came after you, when it was you, in fact, who started this ruckus, by coming into the FR forum and dogging FR! Fuckin' duhhhh....!

I have avoided discussing German Stallion with you mainly because I like and respect him. He has sent me several PMs and helped me along with advice on FR. I do not want to say anything negative about his restoration, but if you insist this point be addressed, here is my honest opinion on German Stallion's restoration.

GS is a great guy who has restored his foreskin over the course of his Penis Enlargement career. However, he is not a typical restorer. Where we "official" restorers use constantly applied low level tension to stimulate skin expansion, GS's restoration occured mostly as a side effect of using a vacuum pump and manual pulling type Penis Enlargement exercises. This has caused him to "stretch" the skin more than expand it. Hence, he did not get some of the benefits of true skin expansion. His methods actually caused the nerves to be more widely distributed. Skin expansion causes new nerve endings to be generated as well as increased circulation. Vacuum pumping is widely known to cause loss of sensitivity in the penis and it also makes the tissue fill with fluid, which can also be damaging. This stretching may also explain why his fauxskin is sometimes loose and floppy. Although I appreciate his advice, I am very careful to NOT stretch my skin too much or lose sensitivity through rough handling. Constant Applied Low-Level Tension is what gives restorers the benefits I proclaim, not rough skin stretching or extreme amounts of suction force.

I'm sorry, GS, but that is why I figure you do not notice so much of a difference being restored.

Finally, swank, the crack about mailing you documents was a joke. Why don't you try to grow a sense of humor to go along with your Penis Enlargement enhance giant schlong? From my experience, women would choose a good sense of humor over a big dick anyway.
 
Once again, limited on time, but I will address that soon enough.

On 'the joke:' hilarious joke Kong, where was the punchline? How was that in any way a joke? Was it a joke when you suggested I just find the articles myself?

How does any of this explain why you repeatedly refused to disclose your source? It wasn't a joke - you didn't want to post your source, plain and simple. As always, anybody reading this can see that.
 
wow...um...okay...when I said try google, I was implying that the material was online and easily accessible through a web search, which anyone would understand-- except you...when I asked if you wanted me to fedex them to you, it is because you said that you wanted to read the entire documents...I think anyone can appreciate my snide little joke...mainly tho the issue is that I posted the proof behind my opinions and beliefs and then you asked for more...we can all see that it was just to try to frustrate me, not a true search for evidence, because you will not change your mind and wont even entertain the possibility...you are a sad man...a feel sorry for you...you can't even let it drop...

I promise to stay up all night long and match you argument by argument, tho!

Why do I do this?

I was the victim of a crappy circ. I had a partially trapped penis with webbed scrotum and hairy shaft. My skin was cut unevenly, giving me a severe upwards curve. As I approached middle age, the keratinization of my glans caused me to lose most of my sensitivity, as my frenelum was nearly 100% removed. I was begining to have ED, but did not know what my problem was. I thought I was just getting old...losing it. I did not know about FR and stumbled upon it by accident. This information DOES NOT EXIST unless you know what you are looking for. It is not something you come across on CNN. I thought, "Well, I'll just give this a try. It makes sense. What have I got to lose?" Within a month or two, I was seeing results. My penis started getting bigger, fuller. My glans shed its callus covering and became more sensitive. I was getting quicker, harder and longer lasting erections due to improved sensation and increased circulation. Even masturbation was a joy! My curve began to straighten, my balls began to recede from the shaft as I created new skin. My sex life improved dramatically. I wanted to share this with everyone! I wanted to put this information out there for any men who are suffering the same things I was. I want it to be easy to come across this info. I don't want it to be a secret thing anymore. I want to help people! I HAVE helped men improve their sex lives. I HAVE prevented a few little boys from going under the knife for no reason save social aesthetics. I HAVE received PMs and e-mails from men thanking me for getting this info out there and presenting it in a passionate and entertaining manner. I won't stop until everyone knows that circumcision is mutilation, and that there is hope for those most damaged by it... that they can have a little back of what was taken from them!

What motivates you?
 
Hmm, well, I just don't understand why you refused to post a link to the page? You suggested it was too much work, then said I ought to do it myself, why not just say you got them as block quotes from a webpage? Why not just post that? That's what I don't understand. But I'll let it drop. You say it was a joke, it's a joke.

I have never doubted your personal benefits from FR, just the information you circulate and some of the statements you make about FR for all men and circumcision. I explained why I post on the matter in response to millionman in the other thread.
 
sigh...sad... I just can't justify having to type "not all circumcised men may benefit as strongly from foreskin restoration as I and thousands of others. The benefits described herein depend mainly on the amount of damage caused by the circumcision" before every post I make. To suggest as much is sophomoric whining, and presumes upon the ignorance of my readers, that they would not know that implied qualifier. Typical white collar snobbery. All us reg'lar folks ain't that dum!
 
Once again, you attack me personally and suggest I look down on people. For the record, folks, Kong knows nothing about me personally, nor what my origins and social class are, and only assumes he knows things about my finances or estimation of other people's intelligence is. He does know I went to college, which I guess automatically makes me think I know everything and people who didn't do the same are stupid. Is this correct Kong, since you have fashioned yourself as a bit of an expert on who I am?

Why not justify it as jsut your experience? Also, this debate was more or less started by me taking issue with your theory that circumcised men are psuedo-males or some such statement. Along with your claims that circumcision causes male aggression, this is basically just some theory you cooked up or read elsewhere and posted. I think it's totally bogus and said as much. And so we have another great debate.

Like I've said a million times, I'm entitled to show why I don't believe the hype and express my opinions as to why.

Wouldn't you say that trying to squash and silence all dissenting views to what you preach as the absolute truth is a little facist? You won't tolerate any naysayers to what you believe and want others to as well? I don't find some of the things you say regarding the matter to be accurate or grounded in fact, or in the case of the theories or some biological arguments to be just wrong to my knowledge, and so I post on them. Your defense and outrage at a contesting point of view is vigorous, and I applaud you for this since it just gives me a forum to show another side of the issue. Unfortunately it is very difficult to get you to actually discuss the issue rather than call me a dumbass most of the time . . .
 
Last edited:
...swank, i don't want to debate you anymore...you have done what you have set out to do, which is to hurt me personally...not in this thread but another one...what i want to know is why? You know how sensitive I am about that issue...and especially about my frenulum being totally removed...yet you had to use that to needle me...and it did hurt...alot...no one should have peices of their body cut off without their consent...i am only trying to help people...you are only trying to hurt me...whatever...
 
Kong, I stated from the very beginning that this is not personal and hurting your feelings has absolutely nothing to do with my postings.

While I am familiar with the fact that you sensitive to criticism and often become defensive when questioned, I have never seen this as a reason not to voice my opinion when I see questionable information being represented as cut and dry facts.

Once again, that clearly was not my intention, and anybody who has been reading this could can easily see that.
 
Very much so; it is my opinion and judgement that it is questionable and in some cases entirely unsupported and false. I cite the examples, demonstrate why I believe this, and offer my point of view. I present this, then people who read the thread can come to their own conclusions as to who has made the superior case.
 
I am glad that swank admitted that my sources and facts are only bad in "his opinion"...I am passionate about FR and its benefits and do not want anyone to be dissuaded from investigating it because of a naysayer who has to have the last word...I'm tired and hopefully I can get some sleep...I hope he doesn't post anything else, because it really is useless to rehash this over and over...I'm the FR guy tho so I have to man the post...
 
Oh okay, I think I understand here.

Wouldn't you agree that it is your opinion that your facts are good?

Isn't it anybody's opinion what is factual? What does this mean except restate a very basic point about the nature of belief?

The point is men can read over both of our 'opinons' and see which one htey agree with more.
 
I believe that most everyone here knows my opinions and understand my viewpoint, and while they do not necessarily agree, they do not keep me up all night, forcing me to defend myself and my beliefs out of some weird sense of one-upmanship. I have sworn to answer your every argument because I believe that FR is beneficial and that ending circumcision is a noble cause that needs to be promoted. I do not think my motives will be called into question.
 
I pump for my FR? So what are you saying that I'm not a restorer? Shit you sound like a crazy wierdo. You just can't take it that GS doesn't like his foreskin. The truth is that pumping is psobably the fastest way to do it. You won't admit it cause you like doing FR. I want it done as fast as possible, you love talking about it.
 
Hey Swank, after reading through other threads on similar topics I understand the arguement you are presenting. As I've been reading into this issue and actually discussed with my father I have found that for many men circumcision is not an issue. My father and I are both fine with our circumcisions, as we both have "loose" skin and are not too tight in this regard. For some men however this tightnes of the shaft skin can restrict penile function and can possible limit growth. I can not prove this, but it is a reasonable possibility. I have read further into the world of FR and it does appear to me that there is a very serious undertone associated to those who choose circumcision. I have yet to find information along these lines that I would consider credible sources, simply because in many instances it appears to be coming from the writer/owner of the web site simply to support their claims. This to me would be similar to the pharmaceutical companies with cure all pills for ED, weight loss, hair loss etc. As I have stated before I see both sides, and I am reconsidering my involvement with FR. Simply because I like my good friend cyclops am reconsidering Penis Enlargement all together. Personally I am absolutely content with who I am and the way my penis function is just great. I hope that for some this information helps, on both sides. There are some pros and cons on both sides. FR is a lot of work and tedium. Being circumsized may be culturally acceptable but does that make it anymore acceptable. Personally I would have liked to have been given a choice to be circumsized or not. Now my decision is to restore or not. I may simply enjoy the benifits of a partial restoration, as I have no shaft hairs when erect and I have skin that will glide back and forth when I get intimate with my wife when that day comes. Thanks Swank for bringing these things to light. Kong, as a man you are a great contributor as you have decided to leave I wish you and your wife the best. I hope that these arguements will cease now. FR is a good thing for some, but it is a choice. We have to remain balanced in regards to what we pursue for our own mental and physical health.
 
Thanks very much for contributing your views million man and I appreciate that you've taken the time to go through some of that chaos!

I think your attitude is indeed right on the money here and you really see the heart of the issue.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to pursue in the future.
 
My foreskin is getting longer due to Penis Enlargement (pumping, hanging and jelqing) and I like the look of it too.

But I never felt inadequate before hand nor did I find it a hinderance in everyday life or sex.

I am not taking sides here.

The last couple of days I have been reading the threads where Kong and swank have been debating and I don't think swank was being personal against kong.
Swank put his points across well and in a civilised manner and it was a shame to see him get called names but encouraging to see swank not retalliate.

There is no need for kong to leave the forum but I think it is important to hear both sides of an argument.
Surely you can stay even if a few people here at FR do not agree with everything you type? That would be too easy, wouldn't it?
 
I agree bluenun, there is no reason for Kong to leave. As I understand it this is pretty much his forum and he does the vast majority of posting around here.

I do believe that FR is not only possible, but a worthwhile pursuit if men are interested in it for whatever reason. Especially now that I've said me piece and there is a little wider breadth of opinion available on the matter, I would encourage Kong to continue advising men and sharing his experiences regarding FR.

I've read plenty of accounts from men on the internet who have successfuly restored and are quite satisfied with the result for a variety of reasons. Though I'm not sure it's directly Penis Enlargement related, there certainly ought to be a place for it at a foum like this, and Kong has shown himself to be the man interested in keeping it running.
 
Indeed...and cheers for that last post swank. Kong is the primary reason that this part of the forum exists. He has done a majority of the posting here, and has been the one to help guys when they needed it. I am with bluenun on this issue as well. If you have enough slack skin that it already looks like you may be uncut, you might as well go for it. But I feel like maybe if Kong takes some time to cool down a bit, and to see that this was about balancing the perspectives and not an attack on him as an individual, hopefully he will return. In all honesty I truly think that the heart of this matter is not whether or not to restore, but it is do we circumcise our children. That is what the articles were discussing, and that is what is so hotly debated. I think that should be put into context as well.
 
Jason1 said:
I was scratching between my balls the other day and I already had a semi. Well I noticed that my CS behind my balls goes far over to the side. Directly over one of my CCs.
Man doesn't that feel good!...i just love to scratch behind my balls!! rofl rofl rofl
 
It is a pertinent topic.

The way I see things right now, there is no medically justifiable reason to do it.

The only argument to be made for it, and this is a rather trite one, is that it seems, according to some sources, that American women have certain ideas about it and the old qualifier of 'locker room' situations.

Personally I don't think either of those are good enough alone.

I do believe in universal use of pain blockers for infants. Not because I think the procedure leaves mental trauma, but in the interests of preventing undue cruelty. I have stated before that due to the nature of our brain development, we can't remember any of are experiences from that age, nor have I ever seen much evidence to suggest there are latent effects from anything that happens in the days immediately after birth. Though things like mother bonding and such occurr at this point, whether or not these conditions persist past infancy and to what degree they are instinctual and reactionary have been debated in very heavy texts that I'm not qualified to discuss. What I do know is that the physical trauma of birth and removal from the womb would make us all insane if we were mentally affected by it, so I doubt if mental damage from circumcision shows up in grown men. Irregardless, I think pain blockers are a necessity.

Another difficulty for parents is the question of 'what about later on?' The advantage of the infant procedure is that the child heals most quickly and naturally from that age, nor does he have any recoverable experience with an uncircumcised penis to contrast, as in if he were to have the procedure as an older child or adult. A parent may also worry or debate about whether or not the child may feel resentment for having a penis that he discovers is different (though he will likely get over this, where as it would seem men unhappy with their parents due to circumcision have the potential for a far more extended period of anger). It is, however, something that new parents must certainly consider when making the decision.

I myself have not decided what it will be when the day comes, but I would expect to discuss it in great detail with my wife/girlfriend and our doctor. If we were to do it I would insist on a careful and delicate operation in advance, as well as the painblockers. If we are going to cut my son's penis (if I ever have a son), we're going to do it right! But to be clear, I'm not to keen on the idea to begin with.
 
Last edited:
Well said.

I have to add that it is my opinion we have all been rendered insane or left with an inherent sedated mentality when it comes to this. It's a Fucking crazy idea to me! TO even debate it. (I'm not speaking to you Swank or anyone really just yelling at the wall) Cutting something off of a little baby's reproductive organ??? Okay, I'm just going to meet you guys on the dark side of the moon because my mind just exploded once I tried grasping it all.
 
Indeed, the origins are opaque and there is no need for the procdure in modern society.

I do believe it probably came about as necessary hygene condition for ancient desert peoples (I have read accounts, and I do not vouch for their accuracy, of historical texts describing many sever foreskin conditions that develop due to dry sandy climates and lack of proper bathing facility, appearently affecting alrge numbers of people). I believe this is how the practice probably found it's way into religious rites.

It's inclusion in modern Western culture is a remnant of less informed times and a strange story to say the least.
 
Swank said:
Indeed, the origins are opaque and there is no need for the procdure in modern society.

I do believe it probably came about as necessary hygene condition for ancient desert peoples (I have read accounts, and I do not vouch for their accuracy, of historical texts describing many sever foreskin conditions that develop due to dry sandy climates and lack of proper bathing facility, appearently affecting alrge numbers of people). I believe this is how the practice probably found it's way into religious rites.

It's inclusion in modern Western culture is a remnant of less informed times and a strange story to say the least.



I would never NEVER in a million years have my son circumcised. I is wrong, it is genital mutation, but it is legal.

Me being uncut I was laughed at in the locker rooms growing up, and even had a few girls freak out once they saw my cock. I don't see how circumcision can cause emotional trauma in young kids, hell there not the ones getting laughed at in the locker room. Though i gotta say most of the little fucks laughing at me cause I had extra skin down there had smaller cocks than mine, so it stopped bothering me, cause I'd come back with " Shut up you little dick fuck".

Circumcision should be stopped, and should be made illegal. It is like cropping a Dogs ears and Tail??? Why for show??? Bullshit.
 
Could you imagine being the first in line for the first circumcision lol of those desert cultures...I'd be like no no no I can take it I can take...I can take the pain..get that thing away from my dick...
 
Back
Top