Originally posted by Texan
FYI atheists: science has been proven inaccurate and tweaked throughout time; by its very nature and defintion science is an ongoing learning experience. Show me one time the Bible has ever been PROVEN wrong.
Science is indeed a method to reveal the truth by successive approximation and the body of knowledge so acquired.

On the other hand, "proving something wrong" or false is a fool's errand.

There have been many religions that have come and gone in man's history. Not a single one of them has been "disproven" in any meaningful sense. Those that have been lost have simply lost the last members who believed in that particular religion.

There are, of course, as many possible religions as there are individuals with the imagination to create them. And the range of possibilities in such myth creation is virtually unlimited.

How could anyone begin to "disprove" each and every religion, most of which offer no means of testing them?

An advocate of any particular religion always assumes his particular religion is true unless disproven.

But in my case as an atheist, I see lots of religions trying to sell me on their belief. It is simply not practical for me to attempt to prove or disprove any one of them, let alone all of them.

So unless the religious advocate can PROVE his religion to me, why should I pick his over the others, why should I pick any one or combination of them???
 
Excellent post Mr. Dobbs. You cannot disprove a moving target. Yet if somehow you were able to prove all religions were made by man and are false, does this lead to a scientific finding that God is too? And if so many men, in fact over 98% of them I believe, trust in some version of God, is that not empirical enough to conclude that SOME version of God exists? Or are we all, unlike you chosen skeptics, completely duped?

Unfortunately, God is not about scientific proof at all. It is a cruel irony for people who require proof. God is about faith. Even you atheists have some of that, though you refuse to admit it. For instance, do you have a complete understanding of electricity, how it is made, how it is delivered, how it makes a light-bulb light?

A Complete understanding now - how we can excite electrons, and why they behave as they do. I will assume that you do not. Now, despite not having proved electricity, and not being able to see it, you turn the light switch every day and know without a doubt the light will come on. That is faith.

Those of us who have faith have experienced God in our lives, just like the light when it was switched on. We know he is there, just like you know the light will come on. And since we have no more understanding of God than you do of electricity, we have no way to Prove he exists. We just accept he is there, as you do the electricity.

Of course this analogy can be picked apart, but a smart man will see the truth of it. Perhaps you do indeed understand electricity, but maybe you don't internal combustion. Or perhaps why it rains. But see the dark cloud, and you will run for cover!

We of faith get frustrated when you don't see the simplicity of flicking the switch to get light. You get frustrated with the same old lame arguments you have heard a thousand times before, NONE of which can prove anything.

God is not found in a church, a religion, a board thread. He is found in that quietest place inside each of us we rarely go. The church, the religion, those are how we celebrate our faith - not how we gain it. Sometimes a church or an individual can help us see what we did not before, but not always or even often. Most of us need to experience it on our own, in our own time.

The good news is that the debate continues. The more we discuss, the more you think about proving or disproving God. The more you think about God, the more there is a chance you will recognize what you have not yet noticed and find your way to a path of discovery.

Notice that nobody on this board is pushing that they have the only true God. Nobody here is trying to sell the atheists a specific package. I find that refreshing and it speaks highly of the quality of posters here at [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/join-now.html]MOS[/words]. I think you recognize that too.

For us it's like having a good piece of candy we want to share with a friend. He won't taste it unless we can describe it. But since it is unlike anything else we know, we can't - we have no frame of reference. So he goes away without flavoring this most wonderful candy, and we feel sad. We wanted to share.
 
Originally posted by bobbdobbs
On the other hand, "proving something wrong" or false is a fool's errand.

There have been many religions that have come and gone in man's history. Not a single one of them has been "disproven" in any meaningful sense. Those that have been lost have simply lost the last members who believed in that particular religion.

Dobbs,

You have good points, but please understand my post had NOTHING to do with disproving a religion or faith (which you were 100% correct in asserting cannot be done). Perhaps I was not clear, but my post said the Bible has never been disproven, and that IS something that, theoretically, could be done, but it hasn't. All scientific evidence pertaining to the Bible has proven its accuracy.

The Bible is a very detailed book. It is not like reading a horoscope. Our Book has a very detailed account of history as well as a very detailed account of the origin and history of our faith. If ANY aspect (historical or faithical) of this Book could be positively disproven it would seriously affect the legitimacy of the entire work. But there is nothing that can be cited that is dispositive of the Bible. And the opportunity to do so is there.

I am not referring to you specifically Dobbs, because I don't your beliefs, but I do not understand how some can buy into the theory of evolution so easily. It has holes in it. I'm not saying the human species (and others) hasn't had evolutionary advances over time, but do I think my grandaddy was an ape? No. Why anyone would choose to believe this is beyond me. Evolutionists can't prove their theory any better than I can prove mine... if they could they wouldn't be looking high and low for the conclusive "missing link." Its funny; they've found fossils older than the alleged "missing link" and obviously newer ones, so where is it?

They haven't seen it, yet they believe (faith?). I guess they have more in common with me than they realize.

Best to all-
 
What do you mean that the Bible has never been proven wrong?
First of it all it was written by men not the word of God. God dosent write books. The Bible also says to punish people to death for crimes like infidelity. The Bible is wrong on all of its fairy tales like making man out of clay and woman out of a rib. It sounds like a book of Madlibs. Noah's Ark could never of happened. Do you know how many species of insects there are? Millions. How could this old man gather 2 of every animal and get them to fuck on a boat? Remember Millions of insects.

I know that Christians and Realists will never be able to come to an agreement until science proves otherwise, which I believe that we will sometime in the future. But until then why would you believe someone, who I guaranetee is no smarter or holier than you, that they know what happens when you die.

Lets come to an agreement. I know that we all have theories and faiths that we believe in. I believe in science and you believe in faith. Only one can be scientifically proven with facts so far, but lets all face the fact that we really dont know what happens when we die. Nobody knows for a Fact, not the Pope, not the Priest and not even scientists. I'm willing to face the fact that I don't know and therefore can say I am open to all theories. And the chips fall where they may. Lets all admit that we will never know until the day we die.

Also if the afterlife is Heaven, which is eternal paradise and eternal bliss walking beside Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven, then why dont Christians celebrate when people die? I know if that was the case I'd would be hoping for death. No more job, money, politics, or anything just eternal bliss.
 
You know, just when I post how pleased I am that no believer here is selling a specific package, BAM!

Nexus, I agree with most of your post. Excellent, but:

>lets all face the fact that we really dont know what happens when we die. Nobody knows for a Fact, not the Pope, not the Priest and not even scientists.<

True enough, except, some of us have died and returned. I, for instance, have twice. I didn't go all the way to the bright light, but I can assure you it's there - and there is a whole lot more. And I am not the only one. A few HAVE gone to the light and returned just to be scorned. Scientists, skeptics and Christians alike want to believe they are crackers and refuse to give them any credibility. Apparently such considerations do not fit any of their agendas...

I do agree completely with this:

>>Also if the afterlife is Heaven, which is eternal paradise and eternal bliss walking beside Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven, then why dont Christians celebrate when people die? I know if that was the case I'd would be hoping for death. No more job, money, politics, or anything just eternal bliss.<<

True believers are exactly like this, they have no fear of death and celebrate the passing when it comes. In fact, it is how I separate false religious pomposity from true belief. Many who claim to believe actually don't. Oh mind you, they want to believe, they are DESPenis EnlargementRATE to believe, they completely fool their conscious mind into believing, but their subconscious still doubts.

These "almost" believers are the loud ones who make religion unpalatable to everyone else - not on purpose, not intentionally, but as a result of trying so desperately to convince themselves. Always quoting empty scripture with one dimensional interpretation. They know each individual scripture, and seem to enjoy beating you over the head with it, but have no real understanding of what the whole collection of verses means.

I imagine that their subconscious figures the more people the they can convince the more they can accept the truth themselves. Or perhaps they believe that by browbeating enough people into the church membership they will earn a way into heaven in case it exists. Maybe they just think if they are loud enough God will reveal himself to them and they can really believe. Whatever, they are a pain in everyones ass.

Many others do actually believe, but don't believe that they THEMSELVES will be able to get into paradise. They fear judgment, despite what their religion teaches about redemption. So they go to church, pay the money, say their prayers, all in hopes that somehow something will be looked upon well and they will be able to get to paradise after all. They are the quiet majority in every religious gathering, and they are very much afraid.

Lack of observable unity of belief among individuals within religious groups is exactly the kind of thing that drives many of the curious away from religion. Perhaps rightly so. I just want to remind you that just because the religions you have experienced are unpalatable, ridiculous or outright unbelievable - does not lead to a sane conclusion that God himself does not exist. Man is flawed and human even in his expression of faith.
 
Originally posted by Texan
Perhaps I was not clear, but my post said the Bible has never been disproven, and that IS something that, theoretically, could be done, but it hasn't. All scientific evidence pertaining to the Bible has proven its accuracy.

Tex,
Just a thought. I think the onus to prove the Bible is on those that want to introduce it as evidence. Otherwise it is simply here-say. Unfortunately, the only proof ever presented by anyone to my knowledge is forced to rely on circular arguments.

And while one might rightfully claim it is a fine historical document, and even good at presenting the thoughts and ideals of many of those portrayed in it, further claims to non-believers without specific proof of the source material are specious at best.
 
I am not sure that writing a reply to any of this will prove productive but it will hopefully give some positive thought to the discussion about the Bible. While I realize that many who read this will discredit the Bible, it is a book that has stood the test of time and defends itself. It is accurate where it speaks, both regarding history and science. To say that it has yet to be disproved is really true too. You or I may not understand it but it speaks truth. Where a seemingly contradiction occurs it is generally because it is not understood or viewed from another position. It is not hard to explain Noah's Ark. There is enough evidence to prove that this "boat" existed. Expeditions to Mt Arrat in Turkey have given more than total credit. Two of every species is not beyond comprehension. Insects...I don't worry about what I don't understand. If Noah took them into the ark or they survived the flood, I don't know. We sure have plenty now. The Bible itself says that men wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Much of what we believe, we believe by faith. We do things, hoping for a correct result. We do things because we have faith it will work.
The Bible is full of examples of people who had faith to try something and accomplish it. The Bible is a History book as well as a view of what God is like. Unfortunately I keep hearing from those on this thread as well as those I know personally, about a concept of God as portrayed by a religious group, or groups, a concept of denominational views and other views that make God to be what man has painted HIM rather than what the Bible says. I can't change that, but the God of the Bible is often not the god of the so called church or religion.
Death to the believer in Christ holds no fear. While he might know know what the future holds, he has a faith in the work of the the cross and if the Bible is true, and it is, then it says to be absent from the body, death, is to be present with the Lord.
Some will come back and challenge me to prove the Bible true. I don't need to do that. It proves itself. It can defend itself. Any so called errors are places of minor controversy that you want to find fault with. Do I believe it. Yes. Where I have had to explain or try and decipher it, I have found it true, despite my attempts to discredit it.
For example: In Hebrews 11:3 the bible says that the "things that are seen were not made of things which do appear."
We were so smart to discover the atom and find out that all the things we see are made of things (atoms) put together in a particular molecular structure, atoms so small we can't see them. God told us that long before we in our intelligence discovered the atom.
Archeology is constantly discovering things that prove the Bible accurate. It is accurate where it speaks.
We major on things that we often don't understand. I guess I don't have trouble with the things I don't understand. I sure enough have trouble with the things I do understand.
Don't mean to try and discredit anyone or convince anyone. Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening. GS
 
a quick word about science . . .

it's not a belief system - it is a process.

a scientific theory is not regarded to be absolute truth in the scientific community . . . it is simply the best possible explanation that has not yet been disproved by an easily repeated and explainable process. science and rationality ask you to accept nothing more than this. science is always willing to correct and improve upin itself, it is seeking the best answers, it is not a static body of knowledge. there is no anti-religious bias in science, this is just percieved because so little of any religious thought holds up to examination and scrutiny.

religion, christianity in particular since that seemt to be what we are discussing here, orders you to accept it as the one reality and truth based soley on "faith," which is a fine and romantic notion, but is more or less a code word for surrender to irrationality.

why on earth would i believe there is some kind of cosmic or unfathomable super-being watching my every move and judging me, condmening my life if i don't live it according to some arcane principles? why has the whole world's population not been exposed to this? are the billion are so christians just special, and the 10 billion or so other modern humans that have ever lived are doomed? somebody back there cited the fact that much of the world believes in some kind of god, well let me just chime in that although that is quite true, the differences between said gods are severe, and many believe in polytheistic relgions that are vastly different than any western one-god relgions (which incidently are all derived from the jews, the first to popularize a one god faith system).

why did a god fill our world with conflictory evidence to what religion dictates? is he into tricking his flock? i would ask the religious to at least contemplate whether they feel god would be in their lives if they were raised isolated from society. god is not intuitive, relgion is indoctrination, people know about and believe in it because they were either told to when they were young or sold on when they were older.

i don't have a problem with religion, more power to you. but i do feel that limiting your view and perception of the world through a belief system cooked up a few thousand years ago doesn't do you any favors in life. i don't want the answers handed to me. i also know that athiests have never gone about murdering people or fighting wars because they don't believe in god . . . but millions have lost their lives because of faith. this doesn't reflect on people that hold faith now, but rather on the nature of faith itself.

i never believed in god, not even when i was a small child, i found the idea absurd even then. i have researched relgion, read books arguing for and agaisnt faith, left my mind open. i can never escape the fact ever, that in the end religion is asking you to just believe without much merit, it is soley based on what others claim, it is anecdotal at best, and certainly less rational than the conclsuion that relgion is not an accurate explanation of things. and what benefit do i get from belief? nothing really, i don't need. i don't fear death, because i think there is nothing afterwards, your brain shuts down, there is no pain, no thought, nothing, and that is okay, because hey, i'll be gone. i believe one of the reasons religion developed in the first place was the primitive human fear and curiosity surrounding death.

i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real. by not believing you risk eternity. my reaction to that has been the same my whole life, since i heard it at the age of 11 . . . sheer cowardice. i'll never suBathmateit to what any group dogmatically claims to be the truth without so much as a shred of evidence, other than volumes of circular rhetoric, out of a ridiculous fear of some afterlife torture for not suBathmateitting. the very fact that a concept of hell of punisHydromaxent was ever introduced just throws more evidence towards the notion that religion is very much about fear and control. it may not have started out that way, but if you read the old testament, that god, the original god before he was re-written in the sequal, is one angry motherfucker.



*german stallion - you seem like a nice guy. pick up a copy of "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. it's not actually about demons, don't worry, but it might give you some food for thought.
 
Hi Good...Thanks for the thought on the book. I don't have the book but went on line and read CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT...based on the book. Will try and get a copy. Very interesting and I must say thought provoking. I read this article carefully and honestly and many, not 100 per cent, but many of the thoughts were things that I have put into my thinking process when dealing with many subjects. Much of the discussion about God is predicated by bias of a denomination or experience that is often very faulty or is a straw man issue. When I begin to see common denominators showing up, then I know there is a pre-detrmined, or generally or often, a pre-detrmined bias. When we start off with a wrong premise then the results are going to be wrong...no matter how hard we work the problem. Anyway, these are good discussioins and make us think. Thinking is something that many have forgotten how to do. GS
 
Originally posted by goodbutnotgreat
i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real.
Probably because it has an obvious flaw. There is more than one religion, more than one god to choose from. So it is not an either/or choice. If you pick the wrong god among the multitude, you are still screwed.

So his idea that there was an obvious win-win choice was merely a myopic illusion.
 
Originally posted by German Stallion
the Bible, it is a book that has stood the test of time and defends itself. It is accurate where it speaks, both regarding history and science. To say that it has yet to be disproved is really true too.... It is not hard to explain Noah's Ark. There is enough evidence to prove that this "boat" existed. Expeditions to Mt Arrat in Turkey have given more than total credit. Two of every species is not beyond comprehension. Insects...I don't worry about what I don't understand.

You say the Bible has not been disproven, but then when challenged, you say you don't worry about what you don't understand.

All that says to me is that your criteria for "disproof" is essentially meaningless.
 
Hahaha
It makes me laugh when people bring up scientific facts and such.
Why do people believe what is fed to you?

Seriously the big bang "theory". It's a THEORY. Until they prove it, it's full of shit. Science thrives on the necessity to have a reason for everything.

Science has its benefits (medicine, technology) but it is not the answer to everything.

Do people seriously believe the history books given out in schools as well?

I bet you if you compare history books from different places of the world and the same events collide, you'll see that it is 2 different things.

It's funny how some atheists (not all) say some things about science and say things like "free your mind" when it's exactly the science that fed them their knowledge thus their mind being slaves to the commercialism of science.

Just believe whatever your heart tells you. Don't let people say you're going to go to hell if you don't believe in God or say things like the world started from the big bang theory. The answer is in yourself.
 
i'm surprised nobody here has cited the famous propsition by the mathematician blais pascal, who wagered that it is worth your while to have faith in god, because by doing so you risk nothing and stand to gain much in the afterlife if god is real.

That is the most foolish thing I've ever heard. There's no such thing as half stepping. His belief was made out of either fear or trying to create a win-win situation which is made out of selfishness.

You either believe or you don't. It's all or nothing. :)
 
I don't know what you are saying Bob... I don't understand many things and the things I want to understand I work at and the things I don't, I don't worry about. Not to argue with you, but don't put words in my mouth.
Perhaps I don't articulate like you think I should or to even make myself clear to you. I will try and do better.
Let me rephrase that...The Bible has not been disproven. When I say I don't worry about that which I don't understand I am saying that many things I trust, believe what may have been proven, I might not understand all the aspects. I am a ham radio operater and got my license years ago when it was much simpler than today. Much to the technology of today I don't understand. Don't worry about it and don't really care, but I still enjoy the privlege of using the radio. If that helps you to know what I mean, then I hope I am getting it across. To disprove something and have criteria for it is really very objective. You might not agree with my criteria for believing and I might not agree with your criteria for disbelieving. Something has to be a standard or set boundry. So, before we can debate any issue we have to come to some conclusion as to what is the standard. So many people have pre set standards or whatever you would call them but they are faulty so the results of the proof or disproof are also faulty. Regarding God: You might say, God, if you are real, knock me down....and wait a few minutes and say, see, God didn't knock me down, so there must not be a God. That doesn't prove anything. Why should God knock you down. What would be the purpose. And, who is to say that He won't or can't.

Regarding the Bible: I believe it is truth. Now go from there. If it is truth, then it will reveal truth. It is a history of Israel and God's dealing with that people. It is a record/account of creation and you or I can't disprove it. Go ahead and try and disprove it. Go ahead and attack God. If the Bible won't stand your attack or God won't meet the challenge then I am wrong.

By the way, I understand that you don't believe in God. I may be wrong, so if you do, then I apoligize. But if you don't believe in God, then I have a challenge for you. First, I don't believe there is any man alive that does not know there is God. You can say what you will and write all you want but I don't believe in your heart of hearts, down inside you know there is God. Now, here is my challenge. I know a man that reports that he has over the years given thousands of ploygraph tests. I can supply his name to you. He has reported that one of his test questions is: Do you believe in God. No one, absolutely no one ever, so he says, has ever passed the test. All fail. Take a polygraph test and see what you really do believe. That is a criteria. Might not be a good one. You might not agree, but it is a thought. Thanks for listening. GS Spellcheck isn't working, so forgive the spelling errors
 
i see people were interested in pascal's wager . . . good deal.

i hope they read a little further and read what i think of it, but whatever. for the record, even though i disagree with pascal's personal philosophies, he was extraordinarily brilliant, a true blue genius and scholar of the highest achievement.

i won't waste a bunch of space sticking up for science, i'll just repeat what i said before: science is a method of inquiry, and it's an open system, subject to change and improvement. that's why i like it, it doesn't proclaim to be the truth, just the best explanation we have worked out. it's not anecdotal, it doesn't rely on "it just is" type explanations, it's simply a body of knowledge derived from a system of inquiry and testing for reliability. you don't have to have faith in the knowledge that science has produced, but you do have to agree with the principles behind the proccess (and generally i think it's a pretty good process. see that computer in front of you? logged onto the internet? god didn't teleport the schematics for that baby into somebody's head).

i honestly like religion, i think it's fascinating, and it is a key component of human society. i don't believe in it, but i don't begrudge anyone who does. the only thing i don't care for is when one side, athiest or religious, or between different religions, tries to impress their ideas on others or force people to subscribe to their beliefs. however, i think debating it is great. people that don't examine their views lead empty lives, and nothing is worth believing in (or not believing in) if it isn't worth questioning. perhaps if we could come to a reasonable conclusion about the existence of god we could ponder how he feels about Penis Enlargement? if i thought there was a god you better believe i would ask him why i wasn't born with 8X6!
 
oh yeah . . .

loner j - no need to call other people's opinions laughable, unless you don't mind having it done to you i suppose. for the record, yes, the big bang is a theory. so is the concept of techtonic plates . . . but just because you can't see them sliding around do you deny that earthquakes happen and continents move? background radiation in the universe can be traced using hignly complicated methods i do not understand, but i do know that the scientific community pretty much agrees as whole thate radiation waves create a reliable time frame and point of origin for the universe.

the "laughable" scientists, with their silly doctorates and triflingly prolific bodies of research don't claim to know why there was big bang or what existed before it, but it seems quite clear it occurred, based on all the information we currently have.

how does variety of historical interpretation have anything to do with science?

how is science commercial?

how is believing in science anymore close-minded than believing in anything else?

what if you believe in scientific explanations because you have evaluated the other options carefully and found science preferable?

socrates was the wisest man in athens because he knew that he was not . . .
 
I was watching a educational documentary on PBS, called the Elegant Universe, the other day and they were talking about the exploration of space and other shit.

On the show they talk about the string theory which basically is that if you disect an atom to its smallest form you will find its made of up of vibrating circular "strings". This is pretty breakthrough because scientists cant disprove it right now.

It also talks about everything in the universe is relative and can be predicted and explained with 2 theories. One theory, known as General Relativty, is used to predict and describe big things like stars and galaxies and figure out why they do the things they do. Why the Earth rovolves around the sun. (oh yeah its because the sun disrupts the "space fabric" and draws things in its wave. Imagine an apple, the sun, is in the middle of a bedsheet.)

The second theory is Quantum Mechanics which is used in describing small things like atoms and subatomic particles. Which is used here on earth and cant yet be disproven.

Both theories exist together but not inconjunction with each other. General Relativity cant explain small things and vice versa. But scientist believe there is one theory that could combine these two into one universal theory that can be used from a sun drawing planets closer and a glass falling on the floor.

Im not trying to teach you guys anything but the point of this is you will never be able to explain anything by believing in some religious, superstitious, brainwashing, rederic propaganda. Everything can be explained, you just need you want to face truth.

Oh yeah and to whoever said "Why do people believe what is fed to you?". You should take some of your own fuckin advice and reject the mind control thats been programmed into your head.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/about.html
 
Bible History 102:

Few Christians ever research or care where their "Word of God" came from. The "Word of God" has been changed, adjusted and rewritten many times over the centuries, and the prudent Christian needs to know the history of his book, and must be careful in his choice translation. The history of the Bible is quite sordid actually, and even todays versions are quite different from each other. So here I present the History of the Bible 102 (the next installment will trace the origins of the original manuscripts - Bible 101):

(Text from www.biblestudy.org)

What is wrong with modern translations of the Bible like the New International Version? Why have Catholics fought and defended their translation of the Bible since the Middle Ages? Does it really MATTER what translation we use to study what God has to say to us?

If you believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ, the rightful successor of the apostles, then you will like the New International Version of the Bible. Currently, the NIV outsells all other English Bibles, including the venerable Authorized King James Version. It has been a struggle for centuries, but, finally, we have a dominant English Bible that supports Catholic doctrines. How did this happen?

What are modern translations based on?

Origen (A.D. 184-254), one of the most famous "Church fathers," was instrumental in editing manuscripts upon which the NIV, and all modern versions, are based. He tells us that he would not hand down Christian teachings, pure and unmixed, but rather clothed with the precepts of pagan philosophy. Adam Clarke says Origen was the first "Christian" teacher of purgatory. A pupil of the Gnostic star worshipper Clement of Alexandria, Origin lightly esteemed the Bible's historical basis. "The Scriptures," Origen maintained, " are of little use to those who understand them as they are written." Origen greatly influenced Eusebius (260-340), who produced fifty copies of a Latin version, at the behest of Emperor Constantine. Although Constantine is remembered for establishing Sunday worship and the Catholic Church as the state religion, his action in choosing Eusebius' rendition of Origen's Bible was perhaps more important. Modern versions are based on the Vaticanus Manuscript (Codex B), and the Sinaiticus Manuscript (Codex Aleph), which are of the Eusebio-Origen type. Many authorities believe they were actually two of the fifty Constantine Bibles.

The Catholic Latin Bible

The Bishop of Rome needed a Bible version to keep the newly-converted pagans from northern Europe suBathmateissive to such doctrines as papal supremacy, transubstantiation, purgatory, celibacy of the priesthood, vigils, worship of relics, and the burning of daylight candles. Therefore, he turned to Jerome, a renowned scholar, to produce the authoritative Catholic Latin Bible. Jerome perused the library of Eusebius at Caesarea, where Origen's manuscripts had been preserved, along with a Greek Bible of the Vaticanus type. Both of these versions had the apocrypha, which Protestants reject as spurious (Tobit, Wisdom, Judith, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, 1st and 2nd Maccabees). Jerome, however, included them in his Vulgate of A.D. 338. For one thousand years, Jerome's Vulgate dominated Western Europe. Only the pesky Waldenses in the Alps, and the original Celtic Church of Britain, rejected the Vulgate. Even Catholic scholars pointed out the thousands of errors in the corrupt Vulgate, but there were few to challenge the Catholic Bible of Jerome.

When the Turks took Constantinople in 1453, Greek Orthodox scholars fled with copies of the original Greek New Testaments, and some of them came into Europe. Erasmus (1516) and other scholars such as Stephens (1550) printed copies of the Greek New Testament, and it became obvious that the Vulgate, based on corrupted Greek texts of the Vaticanus order, had strayed far from the Received Text.

Catholics Defend their Bible translation

Luther, Calvin, and the Protestant Movement had engulfed northern Europe, and threatened to take France and even parts of Italy away from the Papacy. Luther's German Bible was based on the same Greek Text printed by Erasmus. The Catholic Church was running scared, and launched a massive counter reformation. First, the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits, was formed with the express purpose to destroy Protestants and their Bibles based on the Received Text. Jesuits were, and are, bound with an oath to defend the papacy, to lie, steal, assassinate, or do whatever it takes to destroy heretics. The famous Council of Trent, 1545-1563, condemned four anti-Catholic principles which were gaining ground at that time:

"That Holy Scriptures contained all things necessary for salvation, and that it was impious to place apostolic tradition on a level with Scripture," "That certain books accepted as canonical in the Vulgate were apocryphal and not canonical," "That Scripture must be studied in the original languages, and that there were errors in the Vulgate," "That the meaning of Scripture is plain, and that it can be understood without commentary with the help of Christ's Spirit."

The Catholic Church first tried to undermine the Bible, then destroy the Protestant doctrines. The Catholic-Protestant controversy was basically a battle for the Bible.

William Tyndale translated Erasmus's Greek Text into English. To counter this version, the Jesuit order of the Catholic Church sponsored the 1582 Rheims-Douay version, based on the Vulgate, in order to push Catholic control of the British Isles. In spite of the Spanish Armada and infiltrating Jesuits, English Protestantism stood firm against the wiles of Rome. A more readable English translation appeared in 1611, at the behest of King James. It has been called the most beautiful piece of literature in any language, and for 300 years served as a bulwark against the papacy.

When Napoleon's armies conquered Rome in the early 1800s, it appeared that the Holy Roman Empire and the power of the papacy was dead. In reality, it was only wounded, and would soon come back to life. Again, the battle for the Bible would be the key struggle.

J.H. Newman founded the Oxford Movement in 1833. Originally of the Church of England, Newman promoted Catholic ideas within the Anglican Church. Newman's Roman theology took over Oxford, the bastion of the Anglican Church. When he traveled to Rome in 1833, he asked the Pope upon what terms the Church of Rome could receive back the Church of England to her bosom. The answer was: accept the doctrine of the Council of Trent! Newman and his associates believed that Protestantism, not Catholicism, was the Antichrist. Newman's enormous influence in Britain led many to doubt the veracity of the Authorized Bible, as he preferred the Vulgate. Using the allegorizing method of Origen, Newman declared that God never intended the Bible to teach doctrines, and that Church tradition was equal to or better than the Bible. Newman studied Catholic fathers and Gnostics night and day. In 1845 he left the Anglican Church to become a Catholic Cardinal.

Cardinal Newman greatly influenced the British revision committees, which were packed with higher critics and Catholic- leaning individuals such as Westcott, Hort, and others. Westcott's Greek New Testament was based upon the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts. Dr. Philip Schaff, who headed the American Bible revision committee, was a friend of Newman, and was on such good terms with the papacy that he sought and obtained unusual privileges to study Vatican documents, receiving almost unrestricted access to the Vatican Library and Archives. As a result, the 1881 Revised English Version was met with rejoicing among Catholics, as a vindication of their Rheims-Douay version based on the Vulgate. Blow after blow, the new English version supported the doctrines of Rome.

An example is Revelation 22:14. In the King James, this verse is, "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life," while the Revised version says, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life." The New International Version likewise used "wash their robes," rather than "do His commandments."

Another example is Mark 7:18-19. In the King James, we have, "Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?" The bodily digestive system digests food, using nutrients for the body, and eliminates the waste products. Food does not pollute the mind.

In their attack against the law of clean and unclean meats, the Revised and NIV translations, based on minority Greek texts, translate this passage so as to do away with God's law. "'Are you so dull?' he asked. 'Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him "unclean"? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean')," Mark 7:18-19, NIV.

Translation after translation has since followed. All packed in favor of the corrupt texts from Origen and others who had mangled the Word of God. Now the field of victory belongs to the Catholic Church.

Only two types of Bibles

There are actually only two types of Bibles, those based on the majority of the Greek manuscripts, and those based on texts from Egypt and Rome. The early Syrian Church had the Bible translated into Syrian about A.D. 150. This version is known as the Peshitto (meaning "correct," or "simple"). Even today, it generally follows the Received Text. Early Latin translations of the Bible were used in the British Isles, northern Italy, and southern France, long before these primitive Christians came into contact with the Church of Rome. Called the "Italic" or Old Latin version, the Waldenses in particular resisted the Vulgate as being spurious. Until at least the late thirteenth century, the Waldensian version held out strongly against the Vulgate. The fourth century scholar Helvidius, of northern Italy, accused Jerome of using corrupt Greek manuscripts. Waldensians in the Alps claimed their church began about A.D. 120, and their Italic Bible was said to be translated directly from the Greek no later than A.D. 157. Allix reports that the Italic Church of the Waldenses receive only "what is written in the Old and New Testament. They say, that the Popes of Rome, and other priests, have depraved the Scriptures by their doctrines and glosses."

The promulgation of the Received Text is largely the work of the Waldenses. John Calvin was a relative to Waldenses in the valley of St. Martin. Olivetan, a Waldensian pastor, translated the Received Text into French, later edited by his relative Calvin. The Olivetan became the basis of the Geneva Bible in English, the leading version in England in 1611 when the KJV appeared.

The two-thousand-year-old contest between the Church of Rome and those she calls "heretics," is basically a battle for the Bible. When you see a church that abandons the King James Version and begins to uphold the New International Version or other modern perversions of the scriptures, you know which side they are on.

If you believe that the Pope is an Antichrist, and you are in absolute opposition to the Council of Trent, then you stand with the historic teaching of the Waldenses, and the Church of the East. You appreciate the King James Bible, and others based on the Received Text.

Benjamin G. Wilkinson's excellent book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, originally published in 1930, provides much of the information covered in this article. This special book is available from: Giving & Sharing. Wilkinson shows how text after text has been perverted by the modern revised versions, which are based on corrupted Greek manuscripts. This is not a peripheral issue, but an essential core concept. If you believe modern higher critics, who believe in evolution as Hort did, then you do not have the reliable Word of God, and there is no basis for the Biblical faith.

The Bible says that the "little horn," would "cast down the truth to the ground," Daniel 8:11. Jesus said in John 17:17, "Thy word is truth." Modern translations which pervert the Word of God are a direct fulfillment of this prophecy. You do not need to go through a priest or hierarchy to have contact with the Almighty. The Savior reminds us, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life," John 6:63.

Peter Ruckman, a Baptist preacher, has in recent years created a twisted concept known as "King James Version Onlyism." He teaches that the KJV is error free, is the ONLY Word of God, and that all other translations are of the devil. He plays into the hands of Romanists by his absurd extremism. The King James does not always stick to the Textus Receptus. The KJV does have errors, some of which are corrected in modern versions such as the NIV (e.g. Acts 12:4, where the KJV erroneously has "Easter," while the NIV and modern versions, and the Textus Receptus, have "Passover"). The Battle for the Bible should stick to a discussion of the merits of the two competing streams of Greek texts of the New Testament: the Textus Receptus (majority Greek texts), and the Vaticanus/Sinaiticus (Origen, Westcost and Hort) text.

Wilkinson provides many comparisons that leave us no doubt that the Textus Receptus is better.
 
Your statement or the one you pasted says this: "The KJV does have errors, some of which are corrected in modern versions such as the NIV (e.g. Acts 12:4, where the KJV erroneously has "Easter," while the NIV and modern versions, and the Textus Receptus, have "Passover"). The Battle for the Bible should stick to a discussion of the merits of the two competing streams of Greek texts of the New Testament: the Textus Receptus (majority Greek texts), and the Vaticanus/Sinaiticus (Origen, Westcost and Hort) text. "

People are quick to attack the Bible and I accept that, but the arguement is let the Bible defend itself. Taking verses out of context is often a way some try and prove the Bible Wrong. The context of this passages quoted above shows that there is an answer. Passover is wrong, Easter is right. Here is the reason.

It has been a question asked by many: Isn't "Easter" in Acts 12:4 a mistranslation of the word "pascha" and should it be translated as "passover"? Here is the answer: No, "pascha" is properly translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 as the following explanation will show.
The Greek word which is translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is the word "pascha". This word appears twenty-nine times in the New Testament. Twenty-eight of those times the word is rendered "Passover" in reference to the night when the Lord passed over Egypt and killed all the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:12), thus setting Israel free from four hundred years of bondage.
The many opponents to the concept of having a perfect Bible have made much of this translation of "pascha".
Coming to the word "Easter" in the Bible, they seize upon it imagining that they have found proof that the Bible is not perfect. They are wrong. Easter, as we know it, comes from the ancient pagan festival of Astarte. Also known as Ishtar (pronounced "Easter"). This festival has always been held late in the month of April. It was, in its original form, a celebration of the earth "regenerating" itself after the winter season. The festival involved a celebration of reproduction. For this reason the common symbols of Easter festivities were the rabbit (the same symbol as "Playboy" magazine), and the egg. Both are known for their reproductive abilities. At the center of attention was Astarte, the female deity. She is known in the Bible as the "queen of heaven" (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-25). She is the mother of Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14) who was also her husband! These perverted rituals would take place at sunrise on Easter morning (Ezekiel 8:13-16). From the references in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, we can see that the true Easter has never had any association with Jesus Christ.
This is where the problem seems to arise: Even though the Jewish passover was held in mid April (the fourteenth) and the pagan festival Easter was held later the same month, how do we know that Herod was referring to Easter in Acts 12:4 and not the Jewish passover? If he was referring to the passover, the translation of "pascha" as "Easter" is incorrect. If he was indeed referring to the pagan holyday (holiday) Easter, and King James Bible has the correct reading.
To unravel the confusion concerning "Easter" in verse 4, we must look at the context. The key which unlocks the puzzle is found not in verse 4, but in verse 3. (Then were the days of unleavened bread... ") To secure the answer we must find the relationship of the passover to the days of unleavened bread. Keep in mind that Peter was arrested during the "days of unleavened bread" (Acts 12:3).
Our investigation will need to start at the first Passover. This was the night in which the LORD smote all the firstborn in Egypt. The Israelites were instructed to kill a lamb and strike its blood on the two side posts and the upper door post (Exodus 12:4,5). Let us now see what the Bible says concerning the first passover, and the days of unleavened bread.
Exodus 12:13-18: "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even."
Here in Exodus 12:13 we see how the passover got its name. The LORD said that He would "pass over" all of the houses which had the blood of the lamb marking the door.
After the passover (Exodus 12:13,14), we find that seven days shall be fulfilled in which the Jews were to eat unleavened bread. These are the days of unleavened bread!
In verse 18 we see that dates for the observance were April 14th through the 21st.
This religious observance is stated more clearly in Numbers 28:16-18: "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation;ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:"
In verse 16 we see that the passover is only considered to be the 14th of the month. On the next morning, the 15th begins the "days of unleavened bread."
Deuteronomy 16:1-8: "Observe the month of Abib (April), and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.
3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction: for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein."
Here in Deuteronomy we see again that the passover is sacrificed on the first night (Deuteronomy 16:1). It is worth noting that the passover was to be celebrated in the evening (vs.6) not at sunrise (Ezekiel 8:13-16).
In II Chronicles 8:13 we see that the feast of unleavened bread was one of the three Jewish feasts to be kept during the year.
II Chronicles 8:13: "Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles."
Whenever the passover was kept, it always preceded the feast of unleavened bread. In II Chronicles 30 some Jews who were unable to keep the passover in the first month were allowed to keep it in the second. But the dates remained the same.
II Chronicles 30:l5,21: "Then they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the second month: and the priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought in the burnt offerings into the house of the LORD. And the children of lsrael that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing with loud instruments unto the LORD."
Ezra 6:19,22: "And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month. And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel."
We see then, from studying what the BIBLE has to say concerning the subject that the order of events went as follows:
(1) On the 14th of April the lamb was killed. This is the passover. No event following the 14th is ever referred to as the passover.
(2) On the morning of the 15th begins the days of unleavened bread, also known as the feast of unleavened bread.
It must also be noted that whenever the passover is mentioned in the New Testament, the reference is always to the meal, to be eaten on the night of April 14th not the entire week. The days of unleavened bread are NEVER referred to as the Passover. (It must be remembered that the angel of the Lord passed over Egypt on one night, not seven nights in a row.
Now let us look at Acts 12:3,4: "And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."
Verse 3 shows that Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (April 15-2 1). The Bible says: "Then were the days of unleavened bread." The passover (April 14th) had already come and gone. Herod could not possibly have been referring to the passover in his statement concerning Easter. The next Passover was a year away! But the pagan holiday of Easter was just a few days away. Remember! Herod was a pagan Roman who worshipped the "queen of heaven". He was NOT a Jew. He had no reason to keep the Jewish passover. Some might argue that he wanted to wait until after the passover for fear of upsetting the Jews. There are two grievous faults in this line of thinking.
First, Peter was no longer considered a Jew. He had repudiated Judaism. The Jews would have no reason to be upset by Herod's actions.
Second, he could not have been waiting until after the passover because he thought the Jews would not kill a man during a religious holiday. They had killed Jesus during passover (Matthew 26:17-19,47). They were also excited about Herod's murder of James. Anyone knows that a mob possesses the courage to do violent acts during religious festivities, not after.
In further considering Herod's position as a Roman, we must remember that the Herods were well known for celebrating (Matthew 14:6-11). In fact, in Matthew chapter 14 we see that a Herod was even willing to kill a man of God during one of his celebrations.
It is elementary to see that Herod, in Acts 12, had arrested Peter during the days of unleavened bread, after the passover. The days of unleavened bread would end on the 21st of April. Shortly after that would come Herod's celebration of pagan Easter. Herod had not killed Peter during the days of unleavened bread simply because he wanted to wait until Easter. Since it is plain that both the Jews (Matthew 26:17- 47) and the Romans (Matthew 14:6-11) would kill during a religious celebration, Herod's opinion seemed that he was not going to let the Jews "have all the fun ". He would wait until his own pagan festival and see to it that Peter died in the excitement.
Thus we see that the translators of the Bible were CORRECT to translate "pascha" as "Easter". It most certainly did not refer to the Jewish passover..

This is taken from a book boy Sam Gipp called THE ANSWER BOOK. I have edited it for use on this forum. Forgive the length. We are quick to believe what people write and often slow to study and find an answer. Thanks again for listening. GS
 
whoa i missed out, this was a good debate. well i think everyone should read the bible, just for its philosophical value, by the same token everyone should eastern religions, even if your a devout christian, you will be a better person for it. and as for the information provided by nexus on relativistic quantum physics. i suggest everyone interested reads the tao of physics. you will learn a good amount of theoretical physics, and eastern mysticism, and parallels between them. not to say it proves it, im not trying to convert anyone. But its thought provoking. I dont believe that god created us, but no one will ever prove where the universe came from, bc you have to either believe A. the underlying quantum field that everything you percieve is a manifestation of including the dimension of time, is just here and always has, and theres no reason or explanation for it, it just exists, and thats it. or B. God made it. or C. somewhere in this very intangible theoretical realm of science there is proof that nothingness came about after trillions of zillions of years, even though time is an arbitrary and relative constant, that didnt even exist yet. or some other lame theory.
Anyways u see what i mean, i believe in evolution and all that other crap, but why is any of it here. basically A or B pick whichever one makes you happy.
 
I hate when some people believe in religion just because they fear God and they fear the unknown. Im not talking about anyone here though.

Whats wrong with saying I dont know and only time will tell?
So live life to its fullest.

I bet God wouldnt like the fact that we Penis Enlargement because thats not natural and not the way he made us. I mean your not even supposed to jerk-off.

Religion teaches kindness to your fellow man, which is good. But I think people should be good to each other for other reasons. And not because its the "Christian" thing to do.

I think we will one day find out the meaning of everything. We just need to fund research more or better. I got a hunch that this endless quest to find meaning might just be that life is really meaningless. All you gotta do is enjoy the finer things in life that make if beautiful. Like Penis Enlargement, sex, music, friends, laughter, entertainment, family, love,....the list goes on and on.....
 
Hey NeXus, you wrote:

I bet God wouldnt like the fact that we Penis Enlargement because thats not natural and not the way he made us. I mean your not even supposed to jerk-off.

And, what makes you say that? You must have a reason for believing this or saying it. I honestly want to know what reason you have. GS
 
Well as you may or may not know, I dont really believe in religion. Im not saying I dont believe in a creator, but I dont think he writes books like the Bible which is man-made.

Lets say Catholism is the "right" religion. The Pope tells us not to have pre-marital sex and not to masturbate and blah, blah, blah.

All Im sayin is, if that were the case, God probably wouldnt like Penis Enlargement because we are changin ourself and its not natural. And most of us use Penis Enlargement to enhance sex, which is only supposed to be w/ a wife of holy marriage. I bet every one of us has had pre-marital sex. According to God, thats a sin. And we use Penis Enlargement to enhance and enjoy this "sin".
 
Hi NeXus, I find it very interesting that many of our thoughts about God are based on religion. I do understand what you say but the Pope and Catholic teachings but remember, they don't necessaryily reflect the thinking of God. So, when we think that this or that teaching is God, we now base our like or dislike of God based on man's teaching. It is a big circle that ends up a mess. I obviously disagree that the bible is man made, rather it says it is God breathed, or inspired by God, written by men. Supposedly men wrote what God told them to write. Anyway, that is another subject.
About improving ourselves, be it by Penis Enlargement or some other area, what is wrong with that? Why would God tell you you can't improve yourself. You you have an arm that doesn't work right be it from a birth problem or an accident and you work to improve the arm, so you can better work your arm, why would God object to that. Our concept of God is warped. At least I think it is. I don't see anything in the Bible that tells me not to improve myself or even masterbate. The passage about Onan is misunderstood and misinterpreted so that is not a valid passage. About pre marital sex...that is an individual thing. God gives some guidelines and principles that will help man in his life. You can choose to not do them and the results you obtain are yours and can't be blamed on God. The bible in one of the commandments says that we should not commit adultry. The reason is for the unity in the home. A home can't be stable if the man or woman are out there swapping spouses. Some might be able to do it, but most can't so to maintain a home or marriage, this principle is one God says you would be wise to follow. It is not any different than obeying traffic laws. For the good and safety of others, you are better if you obey. If you don't, and you drive through stop signs and someone gets killed or in an accident, others as well as you, bear the brunt or hurt from disobeying the principles or rules. Thou shalt not steal is another. What kind of a society would we have if we just take what we want. The laws of the land forbid stealing. Go ahead and steal, but pay the price or cost of your disobeying. It is not God who punished you. You can't blame God when you get caught for stealing and put in the jailhouse. God told you not to do it and if you do, you will not contribute to the well being of society. Sex and God is a big subject but any or most of His rules, laws or what ever you want to call them are not for getting his Favor or blessing, but to keep you out of trouble. I personally didn't have premarital sex, not that I didn't want to, but just didn't. The wife and I been married 41 years and faithful to each other. I would say it has been a good match. We are bonded together. Why she has put up with me all these years is beyond me, but we decided together that would be the way it is. She keeps me happy and I keep her happy so we don't have a sexual desire to go elsewhere. I do Penis Enlargement to make myself a better lover and keep her happy, and it is working. Again, I don't believe youare are going to find any statements that you apease God or met His requirements or obtain His merit when you to do this or that for HIM. Keeping my marrige together is a goal I have and I chose to obey some of the rules of the Bible for that purpose. There are a lot of dietary laws in the Bible too, that are for man's betterment. They don't say you are to do this to merit God's favor, they are for your betterment. I don't necessaryily agree or disagree. I sure don't keep them. I personally like some of the food God says in the diet sections that would be better not to eat. So, if I have a problem it is my problem, not God's. Why blame God, and I am not saying that you are, but many do blame God for what we set ourselves up and get. This is the end of this long post: God has made full complete provison for us to be at peace with Him, but it surely isn't via anything that we do. If it was our efforts, we would never make it, but it is by his grace and love. The God of the Bible is not the God of religion or the God of man's making. Again, thanks for listening. GS
 
I believe that aliens are watching us. Kinda like we're their ant farm.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :D

I haven't bothered to read through all of these posts, and even though I could write a full ten page essay on my personal beliefs I'll spare you the trouble of having to read it. I think there's enough material here on this subject already.

Let's just say that I don't believe in the bible or the version of christianity that it promotes.Nor do I believe in the god of any other religion, because IF an almight creator of time and space exists, there can only be one of his/her/its kind.

You know what they say, the more intelligent a person is, the less likely it is they will be religious. It is just plain stupid to live your whole life in guilt and fear over some concept that man himself has created.

And just think for a second about the universe as a whole. There MUST be thousands if not millions of civilizations much more advanced than us out there somewhere (who knows, maybe they have indeed visited us here already).

Again, IF there is a god, then it is the same god for all of us. Human and alien alike. And he/she/it is certainly not something that should be worshipped, or feared, or loved for that matter.
Such a god, or should I say the working wheels of the very fabric of reality, must have a broad perspective on things, and I doubt he reaches out to individual people or life forms. I mean let's face it: we humans are merely ants in the cosmic order of things. God won't reach out to us. He has bigger fish to fry.

GODDAMNIT, I ended up ranting even though I promised myself I'd keep this short! :fight:
 
I am atheist, but it is irrelevant.

Even If someone could prove that God did exist, I still would not worship him. I am an individualist and I reject self sacrifice.
 
I don't know if this has already been talked about, because I don't have the patience to read ALL the posts, but !

Well reknowned scientists, astronomers, and others regarding the Universe/Big Bang etc do not deny the existence of some sort of intelligent design in the universe, they say it's more likely to dive in a random point in the ocean and find Atlantis then to have the equilibrium and harmony of nature's forces... or something smart like that.

Here is a good link for yall regarding the subject

http://www.powertochange.com/questions/qna7.html
 
...hHydromaxmm.

It's not a question on believing. It's more an answer of just being! It's no secret that our existence is based on unicity (unified field of theory)... life is constant in it's giving... it creates therefore we exist.

Taking that same idea and applying it to the "creator" one would end up in the same arena of the so-called question.

Hence: The belief in G_D is constant for which I live now, as I create I birth live into something else. As it is above so shall it be below!
 
The reason I am skeptical about a god, at least in the Christian sense is that there are a number of things that don't add up for me.

God is said to know us before he creates us and he intentionally gave humans free will. Now if God truly knew me before he created me then he knows that I would be inclined to not believe in him; therefore, if God exists he has created me and doomed me to eternal damnation.

God can also not be a benevolent in any sense of the word. He commands that we shall not kill, yet he does not follow his own guidelines. If you believe the story of Noah, then you also must recognize that God is a murderer of epic proportions. It is said that he knows people before he creates them and he purposely gives them free will, yet they failed to obey so he whiped the slate clean.

BTW, the Bible is riddled with contradictions.
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html

Even if it was God's word, its not anymore. Thousands of years of translation have turned it into a work of man. If it were actually a divine text, there would be no debate on the meaning. The word of an omnipotent being would be infallible and there would be no misconception of the message. The Bible as we know it is no more then a good storybook which doubles as a guide on morals.
 
Originally posted by German Stallion
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe.

German, fossilization is nothing but a mineralization of an organic tissue.

Heres a fossilized cowboy's leg found in a boot made no earlier then the 1950s. What catastrophe let this one happen?

http://informationcentre.tripod.com/boot.html

The link even suggests that dinosaulr fossils may not necessarily be as old as we commonly think.

Heres one that I'd like to hear your response though. If the Earth is not millions of years old how do you explain plate tectonics? The world's landmass used to be joined together. This is difficult to deny as even by looking at a map you can see how the coastilines match up. Fossil records show matching species on continents that are now seperated by a vast Ocean. We know the current rate of seperation, how do creationists debunk this evidence that the world is very old?
 
Originally posted by NeXus
i just want to make point quick before i ask you guys something else. When Chris Columbus sailed to America 200 years ago, everyone except a few seriously believed that the world is flat and that he would fall to ultimate death be falling off the face of the world.

1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, its been a bit more then 200 years, but I do agree there is a whole lot of stuff that was blindly accepted as fact that is now easily dismissed as legend. A lot of stuff can be passed on as fact when the vast majority of people traveled no more then 10 miles beyond their birth place until the 1900s.

Believing that God exists because the Bible exists is like saying Grendel exists, because the story Beowulf exists.
 
Originally posted by MightyBigWeiner
also, just to add onto the discussion about why we don't have fins. because mammals are believed to have originated from little possum-like creatures. of course all life originated in the water, but thats where evolution/natural selection comes into place. These small possum creatures have developed into bigger creatures, then monkeys, apes, and finally humans. hence we have that bone in our asses (damn, forgot what its called), that can often give us troubles.

Excellent point. Vestigial organs and bones are strong evidence of evolution. Why do whales have a pelvis bone?
 
Originally posted by pumaz
The link even suggests that dinosaur fossils may not necessarily be as old as we commonly think.
It uses the usual tactic of quoting "everyone says" that fossils take millions of years to form.

Actually mineralization probably occurs in a few years. So that isn't a useful metric of age.

The age of fossils is usually determined by the strata they are in. And the age of strata are usually determined by certain radiological markers.
 
I was watching public tv and they had this NOVA on space and shit. They said so far they have discovered many galaxies but none of the planets like Earths distance to the sun, so they are unable to support life.

They talked about how they use the Hubble Space Telescopes to figure out the paths of stars and comets. And they found a comet, that in about 100,000 years, it will collide with Earth. But they said by the time it even gets relatively close, they will blow it up or just set it off its path so it misses Earth.

They also said that its about 1.5 times bigger than the comet that killed off all the dinosaurs. Kinda crazy, huh?
 
There is no God and anyone thinking so is in a false state of hope and needs to grow up and read between the lines. Science (knowledge acquired through experience). Bible (the holy book of bullshit, old and new).
 
doublelongdaddy;17911 said:
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

(2 Corinthians 11:3)

WORD
 
It is so easy to find a reason to not believe, what if you really wanted to? Some may think "I don't even want to believe in such .........BULLSHIT>>>>>>>>"

If for some reason there was a God and a Satan I think Satan would use everything in him to prevent us from knowing God, I think the bible says this too which kinda sounds legitimate, the bible says that "Satan" has a lot of power and that he is a bastard with it. If there were a God He would probably know better than to just address the world in person otherwise He would have already, or maybe he already did in the past and we still refuse to believe. If I were God and had parted the Red Sea, set a bush on fire and didnt let it consume, flooded the Earth, sent plagues of frogs and locusts across the land to prove a point, and still most people wouldnt believe in me I would be getting pretty tired of trying to prove myself. What would it take for one to believe in Him? I think that If God spoke to thousands of us and performed a miracle right in front of us we would still find a reason NOT to believe. "It was probably just the wierd weather we've been having recently", or "ah, David Blain's done that trick before". If there were a Satan and this was his job, he is doing fairly well, I will credit him for that.

Its hard to say.
 
After all that has been said, I cannot resist but to add my comment on the subject;

First of all I want to thank, every believers who have take time (in some cases so much time) to post on this thread. I think it really goes a long way in helping non-believers to consider and change their hearts for the better of themselves. Special mention to GS, you are a very, very wise man. Appreciate all your comments you have put forward.

Now, let’s get started, people do not believe in GOD because of
1. FEAR and 2. Ignorance.

Why the fear? Because those people that has been exposed to the bible or some sort of religion in their life does not want to abide by the rules of God as per the Bible. Why? Because it’s easy to live life without rules and boundaries, for example that’s why teenagers rebel against their parents. They want to do what they want, but a parent being older and wiser wants to guide their child on the right path and therefore set certain rules and boundaries.

People fear GOD, they fear to believe, because again they do not want to live by the rules (GOD commandments). Some people rather blaspheme the bible; pretend it is all bullshit and rather believed in men THEORY or even aliens.

Why some choose against GOD? Because God created man Free and as long as Satan, devil or which other way you prefer to call it, there will be the temptation to go against Goodwill.

In terms of Ignorance; some people are born and raised in family where they are not exposed to any religion. They grow up without beliefs and thus why they are quick to discard God, until some of them go through a rough patch in their life and starts to question and finding answers, leading them to God. People does not acknowledge GOD when they are living a good life, it’s only when they down and out (e.g lose their homes, jobs, loved ones) that they turn to GOD.

At the end of the day, all I want to say is; we cannot argue against GOD or the Bible. It’s there for us to live a better life without evil. We human beings think we can outsmart our Creator, but we just cannot, it’s just simply too complex to the point of unexplainable, to our ability to understand our existence.

In the mean time, what we can do is; do good things to one another, help one another and love one another. Choose to believe in GOD, all his asking is obey his commandments, which is made up of good things. Because, at the end of our last day on earth, the SPIRIT lives on and nothing else; the body will rot away along with our hard earned inches :). Life continues after death in SPIRIT and again we just cannot argue against that.

Save your SPIRIT and choose to believe, open your hearts, HAVE FAITH, what have you got to lose by obeying and doing good things?
 
German Stallion;17071 said:
Evolution is an impossibility. Pure and simple, there is absolutely no merit, evidence or possibility of evolution. If you have been lied to, it is about evolution. As far as God is concerned, certainly there is God. Not gods. Our whole universe points to a creator, not happenstance or chance. Chance is out, God is in. As far as religion, now that is another story. Religion, traditions and systems are man made. The bible account of creation is just that, an account. Not a story, not a made up system, just records. The bible is history, HIS story, Gods story of mankind. No inconsistency, no hiding facts. The fact that the bible tells us all of mans failings as well as success, give it credibility. Glad to have this discussion. GS

Quoting an old post.

Religion has and will always be a way to control the masses. I mean, what better way to control an unruly kingdom than to instill fear in the hearts of it's citizens by saying that if you do not believe in god, you will go to a place where you will be punished for eternity? As stated in a previous post, there are numerous contradictions in the bible. Did you know that just about every aspect of todays religions can be traced back to the Egyptians?

There is nothing worse than someone who will blindly follow religion. It is human nature to question, but if you question god to someone that blindly follows some religion, you get scolded. How about the numerous priests that molest little kids? Are you going to believe "the word of god" from someone who gets his jollies off by having a 7 year old suck his dick? No. But, according to a majority of priests and preachers, they were chosen by god. So the supreme being is going to enlist a freak who abuses little children for his sexual pleasure? I think not. Just another contradiction with religion. Or how about the fact that you can kill as many people as you want, but by saying a simple prayer you can redeem yourself and go to heaven and kick back in the clouds?

It's a shame that we as a society will draw pity upon someone who has murdered a little child because while he is in prison serving a life sentence, he found god. Depending on the state you're in, that has a big role in determining if you get awarded parole.

GS, the bible is a story itself. There were no records, but the accounts of a few people all with a common goal. Control the masses. Control the wealth. Control the direction your country/empire will go by influencing the king.

Evolution isn't always a change in physical shape. The human form has remained similar for the last 6,000 years I believe, maybe more. Over the course of that 6,000 we have made huge advancements in technology. We've evolved to survive. We've evolved to thrive. More notably, the advancements we've made in the last 600 years. Like someone else has said, just 400 year agos people thought the world was flat and if you sailed far enough in one direction, you'd fall off. Which now that we look back we find that extremely odd and stupid. People used to fight with spears and clubs. Now we fight with depleted uranium rounds and UAVs. But that's right, evolution is bullshit according to you.

You really are just one big walking contradiction to everything in the bible.

milla.jpg


^ That's the supreme being
 
Last edited:
Phoenix22;353380 said:
Quoting an old post.

Religion has and will always be a way to control the masses. I mean, what better way to control an unruly kingdom than to instill fear in the hearts of it's citizens by saying that if you do not believe in god, you will go to a place where you will be punished for eternity? As stated in a previous post, there are numerous contradictions in the bible. Did you know that just about every aspect of todays religions can be traced back to the Egyptians?

There is nothing worse than someone who will blindly follow religion. It is human nature to question, but if you question god to someone that blindly follows some religion, you get scolded. How about the numerous priests that molest little kids? Are you going to believe "the word of god" from someone who gets his jollies off by having a 7 year old suck his dick? No. But, according to a majority of priests and preachers, they were chosen by god. So the supreme being is going to enlist a freak who abuses little children for his sexual pleasure? I think not. Just another contradiction with religion. Or how about the fact that you can kill as many people as you want, but by saying a simple prayer you can redeem yourself and go to heaven and kick back in the clouds?

It's a shame that we as a society will draw pity upon someone who has murdered a little child because while he is in prison serving a life sentence, he found god. Depending on the state you're in, that has a big role in determining if you get awarded parole.

GS, the bible is a story itself. There were no records, but the accounts of a few people all with a common goal. Control the masses. Control the wealth. Control the direction your country/empire will go by influencing the king.

Evolution isn't always a change in physical shape. The human form has remained similar for the last 6,000 years I believe, maybe more. Over the course of that 6,000 we have made huge advancements in technology. We've evolved to survive. We've evolved to thrive. More notably, the advancements we've made in the last 600 years. Like someone else has said, just 400 year agos people thought the world was flat and if you sailed far enough in one direction, you'd fall off. Which now that we look back we find that extremely odd and stupid. People used to fight with spears and clubs. Now we fight with depleted uranium rounds and UAVs. But that's right, evolution is bullshit according to you.

You really are just one big walking contradiction to everything in the bible.

milla.jpg


^ That's the supreme being

Wow...you pretty much said what I believe. Not only do they want to control out of fear...but it also pushes good ole divide and conquer! I am far less worried about if there is a god or not, then the few powerful elite out there controlling our world.
 
I believe that there is someting, what? I don't know. I feel it is to much to comprehend and understand, and even if the answer was given to us we probably would question it anyway. Like I said, I believe in something. It may be an ora, spirit, or just mother nature herself.

I went to church for 1.5 yrs and I have to honestly say there were people of everykind in that church, good, bad, 2 faced, etc just like the world outside it. I believe religion can be both good and bad to a certain degree. I never felt anything when I was there, no presence of God so to speak. Doesn't mean that a God doesn't exist. Maybe it wasn't the right time for me to feel his presence, I can't explain what a higher power would feel like so I just live my life one day at a time.

I have to admit I bought the bible 2 weeks ago and have been reading it straight through. The more I read though the more I find unexplainable and even unbelievable. But I guess that's where faith comes in. Alot of it I don't understand and maybe we aren't supposed to and just accept it for what it is. The bible is based on faith and science is based on theory. Niether can be proven to a certain degree.
 
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