koooky

Active member
Registered
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Messages
869
Hey man. The wife and I are going to be discussing having kids soon and I am sure to cut or not to cut will come into the discussion as well. Do you have any really good links to shoot me concerning the number of circs that are fucked up every year as well as some pics of a circ being performed?

Thanks

kooky
 
Sorry it took so long. I am having a family crisis right now and will not be able to respond in a timely manner for a while. I have copied some links for you to peruse, but the honest and sad truth is that there are so many documented cases of botched circumcisions that all you really have to do is bring up google and type "botched circumcision" and you will have access to thousands of cases spanning the globe. The best thing I could suggest to you is to look through them yourself and pick the ones you think your wife would respond to most on a personal level. Remember, you are trying to save your future male children from an unnecessary and possibly dangerous cosmetic procedure.

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/horror/horror.shtml

http://www.infocirc.org/rollston.htm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Law.html

http://www.parkerscheer.com/injury-botched-circumcision.html

http://Bathmatej.Bathmatejjournals.com/cgi/content/full/321/7260/529/b

http://www.infocirc.org/cl032599.htm

http://www.cirp.org/news/lawyersweekly12-08-03/

And videos, if you have the stomach for it:

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/video.html
 
Why do you need pics...so you wont get him circumcised? Obviously the pics will make both you and your wife lean towards not getting it done. What about the number of circumcisions that are performed successfully every year? Too many people dwell on the negative aspects of what COULD happen. I ride a sport bike, I go fast most of the time (highway). People always tell me that I shouldnt ride because of all the motorcycle crashes each year, but I still ride because I love it.

BTW, Im sorry if I came across in a derogatory manner. I dont support circumcision, nor do I support non-circumcision, I am "neutral" if you will. Also, I like you kooky. You are sexy.
 
Actually, I am trying to get her to agree that if we have a son not to get him cut. Even though I am happy with my own circ, and the wife has told me that it is exactly what she wants, I don't think I want my son cut just for the fact that I think he should make that decision on his own when he is old enough. I do not have any of the problems that Kong has spoke of and I suppose I have a "normal" to loose cut.

"Also, I like you kooky. You are sexy."

What the heck did you mean by this???? ;)
Are you a male or female??? ;)

kook
 
I am biased. I know that.

However, being "nuetral" I would think that you would have to weigh the advantages of having it done versus the possibility that your son could be damaged or resent you later in life for not giving him a choice. He will know. He will come across all this info. It is out there and there's no taking it back or suppressing it again. It's called the internet.

What are the advantages?
 
I have one son that is cut, kind of botched. a small amount of freneum, have become fused to the glad, I wonder what kind of problem this will create once he hits puberty.

I was watching a show, on thw W network, stating that 2/3 of the nerve endings in the penis are removed during the curcumcision..That leaves 1/3 for us cut guys, a bit of a rip-off I'd say.

We plan on having 2 more children, If i have another boy, i will leave his foreskin intact.

One thing my wife says, is that intercourse with uncut, leaves her lubication intact.ie..im not stealling it for my onw lubrication. Since the skin moves independant to the hard shaft uderneath, the lube stays where it should.

When i began pumping, she noticed that she stayed wetter longer, I think the idea of having a extra 1/4 to 1/2 of lymph girth, creates the same effect, as foreskin...i'm sure the extra girth doesn't hurt!!!!
 
I am curious if anybody has been around a boy who has just been circumsized. When it is done they are now given enough pain medication in order for them to have it done without pain. BUT, after you get them home and the meds wear off, THEY SCREAM like, well someone just cut their penis off. It usually takes them a couple of days in order for them to be comfortable again. EVERY parent Ive ever heard discussing around the time they had the circ done felt awful for putting their child through that much pain. That alone makes me think twice about ever having it done to my child.

Food for thought

PS Im circumsized and dont have any intentions of restoring.
 
There are some more videos on this site. http://www.intact.ca/video.html

You're wife should definitely watch them. If parents can't cope with watching a simple video of this procedure, then they should seriously reconsider putting another human being through the real thing...
 
Koooky wrote:
>> good links to shoot me concerning the number of circs that are fucked up <<

I'd say ALL OF THEM. It's permanant pleasure-reducing cosmetic surgery done on an unconsenting minor. What could be more fucked up?

NO NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL MEDICAL organisation in the world recommends cutting infants for any medical reason.

It's HIS choice because it's HIS.

-Ron Low
www.TLCTugger.com

FREE Your-Skin Cone to expectant fathers.
 
Kooky I am both male and female. I have small breasts, a small penis and a smaller vagina.

I dont think ANY son would resent their father for having them circumcised. Kinda makes me laugh a little bit, "Dad I fvcking hate your lazy bitch ass I hope you die a horrible death and rot in your grave...because you had me circumcised". Maybe I am wrong for one instance...kong?
 
aares,
A lot of us resent being circumcised. Not towards the father in most cases though.

Even today, the people at many hospitals try to convince you circumcise even after you tell them no. My wife had to tell them no three or four times after our son was born, after telling them no before he was born. If she had said yes once, he probably would have been strapped to the board and mutilated within minutes.
 
I can name many people including myself who feel hate towards there parants for being ignorant to the damage of putting me through such a needless surgery.
 
The thing is Aares, why should I take even a small percentage chance that something could go wrong? Let's say only 1% of circs in the world are botched somehow. That is still A LOT of hacked penises that could have been avoided. I also agree with Kong that it is almost completely cosmetic and unnessesary. Why put your new born son under a knife when there is no good medical reason for it? When my daughter was born, she had many problems and it was being suggested she may have to have immediate surgery to save her life. Even though I worried like hell, I was for it if it was going to save her life.

I would be the first one here to call Kong out for stating various claims about FR. But to say he is wrong about circumcision I just can't do. Before reading Kong's post about circ, I was all for it and never gave it a 2nd thought. Now, I am almost completely against it and could not think of putting my son through that and taking even a 1% chance that it may damage him forever.

kook
 
Even a few minor problems like maybe some light scarring or a snipped nerve or an adhesion, in exchange for what...?

So it smells better, I guess. :D That seems kind of trivial in comparison to losing 60% of the errogenous nerves and surface skin of the penis.

As far as resentment...well, I resent that it was done to me, but I don't resent my parents, because they didn't know better. We can't say the same for ourselves now...and the more we learn, the more insane and useless this custom looks. We're basically just lining the pockets of a few doctors in exchange for a damaging and totally useless cosmetic procedure.
 
kong1971 said:
As far as resentment...well, I resent that it was done to me, but I don't resent my parents, because they didn't know better.

That's called ignorance my friend. If you was to undergo a cosmetic surgery for yourself would you do it without reading into it or reasearching first? I can't think of anyone who would, and I can bet my parants would research any cosmetic surgery that they were going to undertake.
Wether something is a 'routined' surgery or not it still deems research accepted and tried/tested by the docs or not and especially on such an important body part.
Thanks to them they now have a son 18 years of age on anti-depressants, I think it would have been worth the research, don't you? Or even better leaving it for me to decide.
Fucking bastards......
 
Last edited:
koooky said:
Let's say only 1% of circs in the world are botched somehow.

im pretty confident that the percent of botched circs would be significantly under 1%. i can't remember the stats but in the medical industry there is a huge success rate before somthing is considered a safe/legal operation. i can't remember this success rate, and im sure it varies a lot, but i remember when i was hearing about it i was shocked at how high it was.

kong1971 said:
That seems kind of trivial in comparison to losing 60% of the errogenous nerves and surface skin of the penis.

Kong, your shooting stats around again, kooky just did the same but he made it perfectly clear that he's only guessing. and 60% of ALL of the nerves of the penis in a forskin is a pretty big claim, care to give a link?
 
I agree Shithead. I agree that the % is most likely less than 1%. I was just using it as a figure and I actually have no idea what the numbers are for the states or the world. It also would not surprise me if it was ranked as one of the highest % surgeries for success rate. That does not make me feel any better about it nor would it help matters any if I happened to be the father of the .001% of the kid they screwed up on.

To make it clear again. I have no basis at all where I got that 1% and was only using it as a number to go on. My only thought is that if my future son is taken out of the equation, then there is 0% chance that his will be screwed up by a procedure he did not medically need in the first place.

kooky
 
Journal of Urology (Baltimore), vol 153, no 3 part I (March 1995: pp 778-779) states that the rate of accidents is from 1.5% to 15%.

I tend to think that it is toward the higher end of the estimate by the BALTIMORE JOURNAL OF UROLOGY...

Sit down, shithead!

:D
 
The "Lost" List

Many people think circumcision removes nothing more than a little extra skin. However, the fact of the matter is that circumcision removes several critical components of male sexual anatomy. This list enumerates everything currently known to be lost when one is circumcised. Included are notes on whether these losses can or cannot be amended by foreskin restoration.

The information contained in this list may be upsetting to some, but we feel it is important and necessary for those considering restoration to understand as fully as possible the anatomy/biology/neurology of what has been removed and/or destroyed.

It should be pointed out that circumcisions performed in North America may be more severe than those done elsewhere. In the United States, most hospital circumcisions are done to the Bris Periah standard of removing every ounce of foreskin and, in a large percentage of cases, some shaft skin.

Although several of the items in this list are not restorable, there are many significant gains to be realized by restoring one's foreskin. For information on these gains, please see the Benefits page.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please note that although circumcision and foreskin restoration involve issues of physical health and well-being, nothing appearing on this website is intended to be medical advice. If you want medical advice or have a medical problem, contact a doctor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Foreskin The foreskin comprises roughly 50% (and sometimes more) of the mobile skin system of the penis. If unfolded and spread out flat, the average adult foreskin would measure about 15 square inches - the size of a three-by-five index card. This highly specialized tissue normally covers the glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callusing (also called keratinization), and contaminants of all kinds.
Click here to view an animated graphic illustrating foreskin mobility.

We refer to the process we undergo as foreskin restoration but we don't actually grow new foreskins. What we do instead is to extend the remaining skin on the shaft of the penis. The non-surgical techniques we use induce the skin to grow additional cells, and over a period of time the shaft skin will gradually extend to cover the glans. The extended skin looks and behaves and functions much like a natural foreskin.

[Sources: 1. M. M. Lander, "The Human Prepuce," in G. C. Denniston and M. F. Milos, eds., Sexual Mutilations: A Human Tragedy (New York: Plenum Press, 1997), 79-81. 2. M. Davenport, "Problems with the Penis and Prepuce: Natural History of the Foreskin," British Medical Journal 312 (1996): 299-301.]



Frenar Band, or
Ridged Band The frenar band is a group of soft ridges near the junction of the inner and outer foreskin. This region is the primary erogenous zone of the intact male body. Loss of this delicate belt of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue reduces the fullness and intensity of sexual response.
There is no known method of restoring the frenar band.

[Source: Taylor, J. R. et al., "The Prepuce: Specialized Mucosa of the Penis and Its Loss to Circumcision," British Journal of Urology 77 (1996): 291-295.]



Gliding Action The foreskin's gliding action is a hallmark feature of the normal, natural, intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of its own shaft skin facilitates smooth, comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding action, the corona of the circumcised penis can function as a one-way valve, making artificial lubricants necessary for comfortable intercourse.
The return of this natural gliding action is one of the primary benefits of foreskin restoration. In many cases, wives of restoring men were initially doubtful about restoration but came to value it highly when their husbands had grown enough new skin to effect greater levels of comfort and pleasure during intercourse.

[Source: P. M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, "The Case Against Circumcision," Mothering: The Magazine of Natural Family Living (Winter 1997): 36-45.]



Meissner's Corpuscles Circumcision removes the most important sensory component of the foreskin - thousands of coiled fine-touch receptors called Meissner's corpuscles. Also lost are branches of the dorsal nerve, and between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types. Together these detect subtle changes in motion and temperature, as well as fine gradations in texture.
There is no known method of restoring Meissner's corpuscles or other specialized sensory nerve cells. However, restoring and restored men almost universally experience tremendous increases in sensitivity, in part because the highly sensitive nerve cells in the glans are no longer buried under several layers of keratinized skin.

[Sources: 1. R. K. Winkelmann, "The Erogenous Zones: Their Nerve Supply and Its Significance," Proceedings of the Staff Meetings of the Mayo Clinic 34 (1959): 39-47. 2. R. K. Winkelmann, "The Cutaneous Innervation of Human Newborn Prepuce," Journal of Investigative Dermatology 26 (1956): 53-67.]



Frenulum The frenulum is a highly erogenous V-shaped structure on the underside of the glans that tethers the foreskin. During circumcision it is frequently either amputated with the foreskin or severed, which destroys or diminishes its sexual and physiological functions.
If the frenulum is amputated, there is no known method of replacing it. If only a small portion of the frenulum is left, it is probably no longer functional as a tethering structure. There is no known method of attaching it to a restored foreskin, but some men have reported stretching the frenulum remnant as they stretched their foreskin.

[Sources: 1. Cold, C, Taylor, J, "The Prepuce," BJU International 83, Suppl. 1, (1999): 34-44. 2. Kaplan, G.W., "Complications of Circumcision," Urologic Clinics of North America 10, 1983.]



Dartos Fascia Circumcision removes approximately half of this temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath which lies between the outer layer of skin and the corpus cavernosa.
There is no known method of restoring amputated portions of the dartos fascia. However, the new skin may duplicate dartos fascia muscle tissue if it is present in the remnant skin that is being stretched.

[Source: Netter, F.H., "Atlas of Human Anatomy," Second Edition (Novartis, 1997): Plates 234, 329, 338, 354, 355.]



Immunological System The soft mucosa (inner foreskin) contains its own immunological defense system which produces plasma cells. These cells secrete immunoglobulin antibodies as well as antibacterial and antiviral proteins, including the pathogen killing enzyme lysozyme.
Once removed with the foreskin, there is no known method of restoring this immunological defense system.

[Sources: 1. A. AHydromaxed and A. W. Jones, "Apocrine Cystadenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce," British Journal of Dermatology 81 (1969): 899-901. 2. P. J. Flower et al., "An Immunopathologic Study of the Bovine Prepuce," Veterinary Pathology 20 (1983):189-202.]



Lymphatic Vessels The loss of these vessels due to circumcision reduces the lymph flow within that part of the body's immune system.
While some lymphatic vessels remain, there is no known method of restoring those that were removed during circumcision.

[Source: Netter, F.H., "Atlas of Human Anatomy," Second Edition (Novartis, 1997): plate 379.]



Estrogen Receptors The presence of estrogen receptors within the foreskin has only recently been discovered. Their purpose is not yet understood and needs further study.
There is no known method of restoring the foreskin's estrogen receptors.

[Source: R. Hausmann et al., "The Forensic Value of the Immunohistochemical Detection of Oestrogen Receptors in Vaginal Epithelium," International Journal of Legal Medicine 109 (1996): 10-30.]



Apocrine Glands These glands of the inner foreskin produce pheromones - nature's powerful, silent, invisible behavioral signals to potential sexual partners. The effect of their absence on human sexuality has never been studied.
There is no known method of restoring apocrine glands to the penis.

[Source: A. AHydromaxed and A. W. Jones, "Apocrine Cystadenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce," British Journal of Dermatology 81 (1969): 899-901.]



Sebaceous Glands The sebaceous glands may lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, which is normally a protected internal organ. Not all men have sebaceous glands on their inner foreskin.
There is no known method of restoring sebaceous glands if they were present.

[Source: A. B. Hyman and M. H. Brownstein, "Tyson's Glands: Ectopic Sebaceous Glands and Papillomatosis Penis," Archives of Dermatology 99 (1969): 31-37.]



Langerhans Cells These specialized epithelial cells are a component of the immune system in the penis.
There is no known method of restoring Langerhans cells to the penis.

[Source: G. N. Weiss et al., "The Distribution and Density of Langerhans Cells in the Human Prepuce: Site of a Diminished Immune Response?" Israel Journal of Medical Sciences 29 (1993): 42-43.]



Natural Glans Coloration The natural coloration of the glans and inner foreskin (usually hidden and only visible to others when sexually aroused) is considerably more intense than the permanently exposed and keratinized coloration of a circumcised penis. The socio-biological function of this visual stimulus has never been studied.
The glans ranges from pink to red to dark purple among intact men of Northern European ancestry, and from pinkish to mahagony to dark brown among intact men of Color. If circumcision is performed on an infant or young boy, the connective tissue which protectively fuses the foreskin and glans together is ripped apart. This leaves the glans raw and subject to infection, scarring, pitting, shrinkage, and eventual discoloration. Over a period of years the glans becomes keratinized, adding additional layers of tissue in order to adequately protect itself, which further contributes to discoloration.

Many restoring men report dramatic changes in glans color and appearance, and that these changes closely mirror the natural coloration and smooth, glossy appearance of the glans seen in intact men.

[Source: P. M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, "The Case Against Circumcision," Mothering: The Magazine of Natural Family Living (Winter 1997): 36-45.]



Length and Circumference Circumcision removes some of the length and girth of the penis - its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is removed. A circumcised penis is truncated and thinner than it would have been if left intact.
Many men have kept detailed records of their measurements before, during, and after restoration. There is an increasing consensus that foreskin restoration enhances penile length and circumference.

[Source: R. D. Talarico and J. E. Jasaitis, "Concealed Penis: A Complication of Neonatal Circumcision," Journal of Urology 110 (1973): 732-733.]



Blood Vessels Several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery, are removed in circumcision. The loss of this rich vascularization interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development.
There is no known method of restoring arteries and vessels that were removed during circumcision. However, many restoring men have noticed that the new skin is more richly vascularized than the older skin of their penis. We have no medical explanation for this phenomenon.

[Sources: 1. H. C. Bazett et al., "Depth, Distribution and Probable Identification in the Prepuce of Sensory End-Organs Concerned in Sensations of Temperature and Touch; Thermometric Conductivity," Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry 27 (1932): 489-517. 2. Netter, F.H., "Atlas of Human Anatomy," Second Edition (Novartis, 1997): plates 238, 239.]



Dorsal Nerves The terminal branch of the pudendal nerve connects to the skin of the penis, the prepuce, the corpora cavernosa, and the glans. Destruction of these nerves is a rare but devastating complication of circumcision. If cut during circumcision, the top two-thirds of the penis will be almost completely without sensation.
There is no known method of restoring dorsal nerves.

[Sources: 1. Agur, A.M.R. ed., "Grant's Atlas of Anatomy," Ninth Edition (Williams and Wilkins, 1991): 188-190. 2. Netter, F.H., "Atlas of Human Anatomy," Second Edition (Novartis, 1997): plate 380, 387.]



Other Losses • Circumcision performed during infancy disrupts the bonding process between child and mother. There are indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate human contact is inhibited or lost. It can also have significant adverse effects on neurological development. Additionally, an infant's self-confidence and hardiness is diminished by forcing the newborn victim into a defensive psychological state of "learned helplessness" or
"acquired passivity" to cope with the excruciating pain which he can
neither fight nor flee. The trauma of this early pain lowers a circumcised boy's pain threshold below that of intact boys and girls
[Sources: 1. R. Goldman, Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997), 139-175. 2. A. Taddio et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Responses during Vaccination in Boys," Lancet 345 (1995): 291-292.]


• Every year some boys lose their entire penises from circumcision accidents and infections. They are then "sexually reassigned" by castration and transgender surgery, and are expected to live their lives as females.

[Sources: 1. J. P. Gearhart and J. A. Rock, "Total Ablation of the Penis after Circumcision with Electrocautery: A Method of Management and Long-Term Followup," Journal of Urology 142 (1989):799-801. 2. M. Diamond and H. K. Sigmundson, "Sex Reassignment at Birth: Long-Term Review and Clinical Implications," Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine 151 (1997): 298-304.]


• Every year many boys in the United States and elsewhere lose their lives as a result of circumcision - a fact that is routinely ignored or obscured.

[Sources: 1. G. W. Kaplan, "Complications of Circumcision," Urologic Clinics of North America 10 (1983): 543-549. 2. R. S. Thompson, "Routine Circumcision in the Newborn: An Opposing View," Journal of Family Practice 31 (1990): 189-196.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.norm-socal.org/lost.htm
 
The info above is from the first link Kong gave me as a resource point. I would think that
a 13.5% is a huge swing in numbers. I have no clue and I can only state that to think my son would be strapped down as he is cut up would greatly bother me.
Again, if my son is removed from the equation then there is 0% chance of something bad happening to him.

ALso, as a small side note....

C'mon Kong. I know you tire of going back and forth with some guys here but to be fair Shithead was only asking for the link where you got that info and "Sit down, Shithead!" seems overly aggresive and not at all helpful in a thread that is becoming very interesting and maybe a few eyes besides mine will be opened by a clear discussion of what I(we) are trying to stop our future sons from going through.

kook
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom