Do you believe in god? the gods discussion thread

Short and sweet:
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I belive summut is out their......we the UNIVERSE were created by the Big Bang......Science cant explain how that started or why???

It started somehow.....space was nuthing once and now life is everywhere.

I belive their is one surpreme being [I sound mental?] out-their..once or maybe he/she/it still exists somewhere else????
I do belive in ghosts and the paranomal...Expericned it my-self.

I aint a religious person....dont go to church but I do reckon that when we and others die we get reincarnated as summut else.
I belive this as theirs always life cummming into the world at some point, animals and humans.

We IMHO are like a Big PC Network getting moved around to do diff' things when process'es are complete.

I also have and still will ask for gods support and my relatives/freinds that have since perished....I belive they are at times still around me.

I may sound like a Lunatic.....thats fair enough...but this is my views.

I am a Protestant [Religion] but this ^^^^^ ABOVE is MY religion...I follow NO CODE.....I take out what I feel is right.

I do belive in making your own life...i.e. it aint mapped out for ya, it can be altred with ease.
But I reckon things DEFF' happen for a reason......WEIRD things and the casual.
I know this will sound sick and harsh but when I hear of some people dieng young I think to-myself well maybe that happened becoz they could be a future killer?????? [okay I aint making sense now....these feelings aint as strong as the others I must admit].

I give you two quick examples of things happening for a reson...like they were W A R N I N G'S.

Months back I was involved in a train crash with the service.
Some guy had been ran over [tramp] turned out he had made a camp on the track [dunno why?] and one of them metal fire things to keep warm.
The train some-how miss saw him and still ran the guy over.
Now the trains wheels at the front in part were of the rails.
The guy was sliced to pieces which I am sorry about.
Now......we had to get certain things done before the accident team came to do checks etc etc.
I had to go under the train and take some pictures of a small fire that had now been well died out.
We always do checks before sum1 goes under the train in a state like this so it dunt fall on them....well we did the test.....it was fine.

I was ready and set to go under the train.
I swair I was just going under it, when I noticed I had forgot my torch to see the area I wanted to expose.
I went back and got my torch..it was a stones throw away.

I than turned and said to my mate I am going in......than a massive bang like nuthing I heard before.
The train had fallen back onto the track.

If I would have gone under I would have been sliced in half by the wheel I would have been under.
Turned out that a 1 in many 100's of 1000 chances that a bolt to a machone that was holding the wheels off the track in level had come out.....why did that happen??? MHO to save me.

Another tale.
I was after a ring for my mother once.
I could not find it anywhere.....the store that had it sold out right on xmas eve [last minute shopping].
I was well pissed off.
I was sat outside sumwhere in the cold, dark and fed-up.
A guy was sat also...looked like a homeless guy or summut really scruffy.

He was like 'Wuts up dog' I told him... His eyes fucking lit up...I was like if your gunna joke with me Ill smash ya up frog eyed bitch.
Anyways he has a carrier-bag with alsorts of probably *Stolen* goods, cd's, games the works.
Turns out he had this VERY JEWLLERY I needed.
I tested it out , it was real....I paid him half the price and gave him my coat...I was delited......I got the present after-all.

Now how lucky is that????? It happened for a reason......things like that dont just happen.

Hope this all makes sense, any questions and the like than fire-away.

cya all.

The question is ..How can I NOT believe in God? First let me say that I am not what some call a card carrying christian. I do attend church occasionally and am not ashamed in any way to say that I am proud of my christian heritage. My family always attended church regularly. Yes I believe in God not Gods.

For those of you that know me you know i always have a story and now isn't any different.

I always wanted to be a youth counselor. I always wanted to try to spare others the pain I had endured as a child and in to the ealry teen years. I gave up my summers for 4 years to attend a Bible College that offered the courses I wanted to take to help qualify for the position i wanted. In one of those classes an elderly lady was sitting in the back of the class. The instructer was giving the lesson when all of a sudden the lady started screaming. (The class had just began as usual with prayer) People around her thought she was having a heart attack or something. The instructor went to her to try to be of assistance.
When he reached her she was hysterical with laughter. She could not even speak she was laughing so hard. All she could do was point to the floor. On the floor by her feet were multiple skin cancers that had fallen off of her legs . She had new skin just like a baby where the cancers were just a moment before. I did not read this from a book I was there. It happened.

Another time in the same school at the graduation ceremony for an elective class that I was taking at night a lady was singing without any music. She only had a small microphone and a small amplifier just large enough for that class to be able to hear. About half way thru the song while the lady was singing the instructor stood with a face as ashen as death its self. He yelled ..DO YOU HEAR THAT? From out of no where you could hear 1000s of voices singing as a choir backing up the lady as she sang Amazing Grace. It was an angelic choir sound coming thru the small amp.

The church I attended as a child was about 3 miles from town . Before my time there my grandmother told me of times when people would come like mad men from the town thinking the building was on fire. The smoke was visible miles away. When they would arrive they would find church services going on as normal but outside on the rooftop huge balls of fire would be dancing on the roof. The next day there would never be so much as a smut mark. No fire damage. Fire in the Bible has many times been refered to as the presence of God.

Go ask Smith Wigglesworth if he believed in God. He was an ordinary man from the UK. He was not even able to read or write. His wife became a christian and tried to get him to go to church with her. He refused and would even lock here out of the house if she went. Finally he gave in and went with her. He accepted Christ that night and became one of the greatest preachers to ever walk the face ofthe earth. He was known as the Apostle of Faith. Its a documented fact that he rebuked death and 17 people were brought back to life during his services. Thousands were healed of uncurable diseases like blindness and deafness.

I could go on and on all night and never tell you all the things that i have witnessed that had to be God. Like a man playing a piano in a service . The man gets up and the piano keeps playing the same tune. It was NOT any type of electrical device or gadget. Just a plain upright piano.

How can I not believe in God? I realize by posting this that I am risking being called a lunatic or worse. I don't care. Get Darwin to explain it with his theory. He can't.

The real truth is that its develotion not evolution. Man was created perfect and has devolved into what he is today. America is paying the price today for letting one outspoken woman by the name of Madelin O'hare expell God from school. Its a fact in the records that 30-40 years back the #1 problem is school was chewing gum. #2 was breakin in the line going to the lunchroom. Today its mass murder, rape, teachers literally afraid for their lives. Bombs, Guns you name it we have it. Know God know peace...NO God NO peace.

Sorry guys but you came a little too late to tell me that there is no God.

I believe in God.

Cuz, Gotta believe in something.
To have someone who you think can help you/believe in you.
Keeping you full of hope even in the worst situation.
And when your mad, to blaim him without getting sleecy replies and other shit.

Nobody can explain how the world came to it start. They say big-bang, i dont believe that. Because no matter what you say created the earth you can always say this - "Where did that come from?"
Like in, the big bang created the planets.
And where did the big bang come from? And where did that thing who created the big bang come from.... You see all shit.
Its like we live in "MATRIX" all programmed-up.

This thing i find interesting, how come we speak different languages in the world and not the same all over the place?

//Rob

i think you guys might have the wrong idea of what the big bang theory actually is. It's very complicated but the basis is that two different dimensions collided together into one three-dimensional universe causing the bang which is what started the beginning of time. like this

----> <-----

-----(@)-----

(((((@)))))) -start of time is the wave that never stops

but im in no way a scientist but im pretty sure thats the premise

I want to ask all the religious people a question who claim they have seen the hand of God a question.
Did you know 24,000 people die every single day in the world because of starvation alone including children? Why would God spend his time in AnyTown, USA when these people dying because they don't have a basic human need. Why dosent God transcend down from heaven and do a real miracle.

When you see a shooting star do you think is a sign from God too? Maybe its a sign that God made Bush the president to fight "evildoers". LOL

People need to know, whether they like it or not, the Bible is wrong and religion is just superstitious nonsense thats been inherited for many centureis by our ancestors. Remember they also thougt the world was flat just two centuries ago.

The Bible is wrong in the first chapter.
Example:"The Earth was made in six days.
Well, truth is that the Earth is an off shoot of the sun that has been changing through natural disasters like earthquakes, volcanos and erosion for millions and millions of years. The only reason there is life here on Earth is because its the only planet we know of so far that even sustain life!

For people who want good philosophical shit that makes you think about this issue go to: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/johnson2.htm#8

Not many atheists in combat. I have seen a lot of men die. Amazing how many card-carrying atheists cry out to God when they realize they are about to die, or pray to him for protection during a firefight.

I also notice most atheists are not homeless or poor. Funny how when you have plenty of stuff, you don't need God. Funny how quickly you would beg him for food if your belly was empty.

This science that proves God does not exist, is it not the same science that says Penis Enlargement is useless and dangerous? I admit that science can explain a whole lot, but human science is still in it's infancy. Many of yesterdays accepted scientific truisms have been discarded in light of new discoveries. Sure, trust in science all you want. You will still cry out to God when the time comes.

If you look deep within your heart, you will know God exists. The most valuable, and life-affirming journey in life is the search for God. His hand and presence can be seen easily by even the most died-in-the-wool skeptics by just observing, really observing, any living thing.

A flower, if watched patiently and intensely from dawn to dark, is a fine example. Science knows every bit of a flowers design and how it works. And yet, to watch one for a day as it opens it's petals to the sun, how it shies away from touch, how it pulses in the rain, the way it smells differently at different times of the day, all of it is so immensely beautiful that one can not help but know it is not just the result of eons of mechanical, heartless evolution just by spending time with it.

Sure you hard core guys can go on bravely denying God, but I have seen the truth. You will recant one day. Spill a little blood, go a few weeks without food, lose everything in the stock market. The day will come. God can wait.

PirateSteve,

Alright, I know I won't cry out to God when I'm dying. And I also know that I don't need him for anything. You said that you notice that most atheists are well to do. So I ask you, why is that? Is that because we sit around praying to God asking him to solve all of our problems, or is it because we actually utilize our own abilities to get what we want? Prayer won't get you anywhere, but getting off your ass and doing something certainly will. I used to be stupid and pray, and over the years I realized how pointless it was. I decided to forget about God and instead fix things myself.

Aside...

(Well, another experience that led me away from God was the time some guy toppled over dead of a heart attack during Mass. I mean, seriously what kind of God lets a worshipper die during a service. Oh, I forgot, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," so that's okay if God took his life, even in the middle of Mass. And yeah, "He is in God's hands now," so God was selfish enough to take that man away from his family and friends that loved him, just so He could have the man for Himself. Am I the only person who has realized those two aforementioned phrases are trite and meaningless?)

Ok, end of that little aside...

Anyways, should I be subservient to anything, other than maybe my real Creators, my parents? I don't think so. God has never helped me and never will. That is either because He doesn't exist, or because he's just an uncaring asshole, like the majority of His "children." Oh wait, maybe it's because I don't pray to Him anymore, and he could care less for me. Well good, because I feel the same way about Him.

One more thing, I don't follow your whole flower example. I think I'm more in touch with nature than most people, and I don't see how spending a day with a flower makes me KNOW that God made it. Why does anything beautiful have to be God's work? Why do people say, "Well, it had to be done by God, there is no other way?" Where is YOUR proof? All of the beauty of the flower is due to the fact that structure defines function. It could be made by God or the result of evolution, but the way it functions is indpendent of what made it. I mean, seriously it's good to know God made stinkflowers and other wretched smelling flowers too. He certainly has good taste.

But people say, "God had to make the Earth and people, because it is just so perfect." Well, we never experienced anything else, so how can we say otherwise? This Earth could be an utter shithole compared to what it is now, and everyone would think it is so incredible and amazing, simply because he/she had no basis of comparison. Everything is relative, so why tout anything that is seen as special as the absolute work of some Architect in the sky?

Ok, that is all of my long-winded reply.

- DS, a happy man in an unhappy world

Don't make me put on my minister clothes:D

The Universe
How life started


Around 500 million years ago: amino acids (proteins) + fatty acids (lipids) appears in tidal pools and stagant ponds (dry & hot during day, cold & humid at night).

Moleculs trapped in clay + quartz -> small chains of nucleic acid -> simplified form of DNA

Hydrophilic + Hydrophobic molecules -> clusters -> outside in contact with water, inside protected

=> for the first time, something has an inside and an outside

Some cells use carbohydrates, other use the sun's photons (no need to "eat")

Some cells start to reproduce -> cell division -> geometric explosion

Cells go out of ponds -> DNA cells form a considerable variety of living structures

2 families:
- cells using photo-synthesis (Plants) -> produce oxygen
- cells using oxygen with carbohydrates -> have a nuclei

Cells with nuclei -> intra-cellular communication (between cells)

-> cells have different functions in the same organism (they form a flagella for movement, evacuate waste... )

These functions need coordination: appears in front (and propulsion: in rear)

- organism with several thounsand cells: earliest marine organism (first sponges, little jelly-fish, worms...)

- cells more and more specialized -> neurons and nerve net

- forward-moving animals -> sensory organs in the front -> more ganglions in the head -> brain

=> that's why our brain is in our head, not in our knees

This was the very first life on this planet. And from there is Evolution. Its normal for people be afraid of things that they don't know or understand. I'm not saying I understand it either but I know that Life and the Universe is a complicated issue and cannot be explained by a thing so simple as God made it in 6 six days and made man out of clay.

NeXus,

Very nicely put. I don't think we'll ever be able to explain precisely how the Universe began (or everything about the universe for that matter), but think we can explain things back to some definite point of time in the past. And I think it's alright if we don't understand things. I'd rather not understand something (and strive to find the answer), then make up some story about some patriarch in the sky that lovingly fashioned all of us. If I did that, I'd be just as well believing in Santa Claus.

- DS

Originally posted by NeXus
Its normal for people be afraid of things that they don't know or understand. I'm not saying I understand it either but I know that Life and the Universe is a complicated issue and cannot be explained by a thing so simple as God made it in 6 six days and made man out of clay.

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"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

(2 Corinthians 11:3)

OK I admit there was probably a big bang. Well there had to be one. The earth was empty. God said Let there be...... talk about a bang. A world that had never heard sound and a voice as thunderous as God speaking what wouldn't have become when He spoke.

As for the hungry dying people. What is your evolution theory doing to help them. At least the Christian organizations are constantly trying to raise money to feed them.

When God created man in the garden he would have never wanted for anything had he stayed in that perfect state but, man not GOD decided to do it his way.

As for the man dying in mass. WHAT a priviledge and an honor that must have been for that man or any other man for that matter. To have served God with all hid heart and go to worship and God says hey you're closer to my house than yours. Where is that man now.... spending the day with God. And whether you wanna believe it or not he would NOT come back to this world for a thousand familes just like his.
The man Smith Wigglesworth that i mentioned earlier prayed for his wife who had died. Instantly she sat up alive again . The first words out of her mouth were. Smith what did you do that for?
I am not arguing with you guys just expressing my beliefs as you are entitled to yours. Just be careful cause one of those uncaring assholes as you call them will probaly be the one to decide to stick you in some day.

A quick reply this time...

Evolution doesn't care about the starving, dying people. It follows the principle of survival of the strongest/fittest, and might is right. Sure, the Christian groups are helping those people to live, but that isn't helping the evolution of man. The weak are praised and allowed to live, therefore hurting the species. I know that all may sound bad, but that is the way nature works.

As for the guy dying in church, I sure don't see it as an honor. Guess that's the way I see it though.

Oh yeah, and God was the one who deceived man in the Garden, not the Serpent. God said eating the fruit would bring certain death, whereas the Serpent told the truth. See Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:4-5 for that. (Think I mentioned that in a previous post, but I felt like reiterating it.)

Anyways, that's my thoughts on things.

- DS

OK DS, let me try to sort out the mess I made of my last post. I ask your forgiveness for my not being able to express my thoughts in a particularly coherent manner, as I have a brain injury that sometimes obscures my ability to clearly put in words that which is so clear in my head.

Firstly, you wrote, “I don't see how spending a day with a flower makes me KNOW that God made it.” This is a little like arguing that a chocolate cake is not to your liking before trying it. I stated that you need only spend an entire day with a flower, and you dismissed the idea without trying it. So as far as I can see, you can choose not to try my suggestion, but then have no position to argue it’s ineffectiveness. Spend a day, test my theorem, then we will have a frame of reference to discuss this further - that IS science.

I see in you an anger towards the church. In many of the things you have said I find myself in full agreement. Let me clarify my position a bit for you. I think the Christian church in America in general has completely failed us. Keep in mind the church is an institution, it exists (not unlike the Government) to support itself first. Men with power often seek to expand such, and the church is not exempt from this at all.

Hindus believe that all paths to God are valid. As a Christian heretic, so do I. I am a Buddhist, and a Christian if labels are necessary. But I see much truth in Islam (I particularly find the Sufi branch quite refreshing, and could easily go that way under the right circumstances), and in quite a few of the Eastern traditions. The history of Christianity leaves much to be desired, to be sure. As an example, most Christians accept the Bible as God’s word without question. History shows that it was commissioned by Constantine, not God himself. Jesus never once said, “Write down what I say, collect the works, and make a holy book.” God never told Peter to do so either.

Constantine, however, decided that the best way to consolidate a broken Roman Empire and make it great once more was to declare one state religion. Constantine, a nonbeliever, created the Catholic Church. It was Constantine who ordered that the fragments of stories about Christ be collected, sifted through, and “canonized” into a “Word of God”. Worked out nicely for him.

So if I readily admit that the Word of God is a fabrication of a secular man (who had an agenda of his own), how can I defend God? Because God is not a book. A book is made of dead paper, has no life, and is in every way a great example of a creation of man. We men make great things, but none of our creations live. The church is a creation of man. The Catholic Church was originally intended as a method of control, as were most religious (and non-religious) institutions.

Then came the great Christian reformers, Luther leading the way. (Good movie about him out now, by the way). Luther wanted each man to be able to find God himself, without being told who and what he was by the all knowing (and very corrupt at the time) church. A little of that “find it for yourself” exists to this day in Protestantism, though to be sure, but only if it is contained in Constantine’s bible - anything beyond that is heresy.

So do I believe the Christian “Bible” to be wrong? Is it full of lies? No, I find in it great truths, though perhaps not the whole truth. There are a great many texts that exist still today that earlier followers of Christ read and enjoyed. Some of them are not as good at encouraging a populous to pay taxes to the government and tithes to the church. Others give very interesting spins to contemporary Christian thought. I particularly like the Gospel of Thomas, where Jesus tells us God is not found in a building but out in nature. Ahh, but I digress.

What is this diatribe about? I see Christianity, and Islam, and other organized religions much as the ancient Chinese saw all religion - as a finger pointing to the moon. One can find the moon on his own, but when one is having little success or is unsure which light in the sky is really the moon, it is helpful if a friend points it out for him. Once the moon is seen and recognized, the finger no longer is necessary - one can view the moon from that evening on directly, by himself. Today’s Catholic church would have you believe that the moon is only viewable through their finger. And the Protestants that you must know every inch of the finger, each intricacy, in order to truly see the moon.

Those in the east would tell you that if you look within yourself deeply, the moon will be apparent. I agree with them to a point, as I meditate hours every day and God is so apparent in the silence that it is humorous to me to speak with those who do not believe. What I was trying to say earlier DS, is that you don’t need any of that to know God. I gave a simple challenge - watch a flower for an entire day and write me back telling me how God does not exist. Prove my theorem wrong using your own, much touted, scientific method.

You also wrote, “Prayer won't get you anywhere, but getting off your ass and doing something certainly will”. I agree almost completely with your assessment here too. Today, in America, Christians think prayer is something you do TO God. A one way path of communication whereby you ask for something, and if it suits God, you get it. What a crock. God is not a crutch, nor does he exist to manifest our desires. This is not taught anywhere in the Christian bible. Yet, somehow, the church has encouraged such meaningless blabbering. Christ teaches it is a private communication with God. Christ didn’t pray for God to do things for him, he “got off his ass” and did it himself, much like you. (And like you, he didn’t think much of organized religion either - did you know you had so much in common?)

Christ gave us an example of communication - he spent 40 days alone with God. Not many Christians have or would ever try such a thing (I have, several times, and I highly recommend it by the way). No wonder Prayer is so easily dismissed - to do it right requires a lot of time and effort! So the church teaches you some meaningless method that suits it’s needs. I have never seen a Christian church, ever, teach you how to listen during prayer for a response. They want you to ask for “things” and not wait for an answer, it keeps you coming back and “donating” money! You came to the correct conclusion, and I wholeheartedly support your wise decision.

I am sorry that you saw and were disturbed by a man, most likely an acquaintance of yours, perhaps even a good friend, pass in church. Death is not an easy thing to understand, and most spend more time running away from it than studying it. I have an unfortunate amount of experience with death, and so have learned a bit. I have held many dyeing men in my arms and watched the spark of life leave them. I myself have been flat-lined twice. What I can assure you is that since we all have to die sometime, there is no better death than one that comes upon you when you are doing something you love, and are surrounded by people you love. If the man that died found comfort in Church, if he enjoyed his time there, then he had a good death.

Both times I died, I left my body and could observe what was around me. In both cases it was a miserable place, and I felt no comfort watching strangers beat on my body or cut it open. Noise and pandemonium, wrapped up in spattered blood. I know that experience would have been much more comforting if just one person I loved was present. I imagine (in what is left of my mind) that man who died in your church surrounded by love and caring friends. Frankly, I envy his death. I see the time and place of his passing as a great gift. Someday, I think you will too. In the mean time, I am sorry it caused you so much distress.

Science is trying hard to explain the experiences of those, who like me, died and returned. What is the white light, why are we drawn to it, how are we aware of what is happening in the room, or even outside it? How can we describe things we could not possibly have seen around us so accurately and in such detail? So far, not much from those learned scholars. Those of us that have been there, though, we get it.

I believe the reason the overwhelming majority of people on earth believe in God is not because they are ignorant (though surely some are). I believe that at some deep level, we all can feel the presence. Those of us who spend a great deal of time in quiet contemplation and meditation see this more clearly, as God is most easily seen in the quiet, simple things (great scripture DLD!). It is why the poor and needy see him more clearly than the affluent. They have quiet and simplicity forced upon them. It is why the affluent find God obscured, they have no time or patience for quiet or simplicity.

I appreciate that you believe you know what you will or will not do when that time comes upon you, like it will all of us. I am only saying that you should be aware that what you think you believe today, how you think you will act when the time comes, might not be how it goes down at all. I assert again that in many observed deaths I really have not seen many atheists die atheists.

PirateSteve,

Thanks for the honest answer. I know I come off as being angry and what not when I reply (probably cuz anytime I get involved in talks about God, it makes my brain hurt), but it's nice to see I can get a well thought out reply that doesn't try to hide anything.

And it's true that I've never taken you up on the flower offer...yet. I have spent days in nature all by myself, not seeing another human in that time. That is quite an experience in and of itself, although not at all what you are saying to try. So, I will take you up on the offer, although probably not until next spring, as I'd like to see a wildflower in action.

I sincerely doubt my views on anything will change, but if I magically find God in that flower, then I'll let you know and thank you later.

Oh yeah, and I've also been "close to death," but nothing even remotely as bad as what you've experienced. I didn't ask for God's help then, and probably won't ever. But you're right, I can't validly say that I KNOW what I will do on my last day on this Earth, seeing as I haven't been there. Let's just say that I'm fairly confident though.

- DS


PS: Your last post wasn't a mess, and there's no need to apologize for anything you said, especially considering the circumstances involved.

PirateSteve . . .

Although your words did little to shift my perspective they were by far the most eloquent and concise, as well as criticaly informed statement in favor of relgion that I have heard in a great while. The talk of flowers as universal proof, experiecne after death; such subjective things lend little weight to a debate with people who explcitly reject anecdotal evidence . . . but kudos nonetheless. It seems you have an excellent grasp on what it takes to make your own life satisfying as well as a tolerance for the world, and for that you are comendable. Best of luck, and cheers to a fine post. GBNG

Why should I believe in God when he/she/it doesn't believe in me?

Originally posted by NeXus
When Chris Columbus sailed to America 200 years ago...

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He would have been shocked to learn that he'd already been dead for 300 years!

Columbus discovered America about 511 years ago. The Mayflower landed about 383 years ago. The colonies declared their independence from England about 227 years ago.

Originally posted by NeXus
Around 500 million years ago: amino acids (proteins) + fatty acids (lipids) appears in tidal pools and stagant ponds (dry & hot during day, cold & humid at night).

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The first cellular lifeforms found in the fossil record date back an astounding 3.5 billion years! The earth itself formed about 4.2 billion years ago. So just a few hundred million years after the earth's surface cooled off enough, DNA life appeared.

Not much changed (as far as we know) until about 500 million years ago when lifeforms suddenly diversified. That's when the major branches diverged (plants, animals.)

Originally posted by PirateSteve
Not many atheists in combat.

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And yet a lot of men get killed in combat. Thus proving, apparently, that God didn't answer their prayers.

Originally posted by German Stallion
Hi Bob.....Fossil records, so called, are based on predetermined criteria....namely that they are millions of years old. The theory that things happen like they have for millions of years without a glitch does not wash. In fact, you can't have a fossil unless something catastrophic happened. Fossils are evidence of things not happening in the norm. So, that fossil from Iowa is evidence of something happening in that sea that once was in Iowa. But what caused it to become a fossil. If it died today, it would not become a fossil unless there was a catastrophe. And, evolution is predicated on something that was nothing becoming something and evolving over millions of years. Millions of years won't wash in our present rate of existence. The sun won't allow for millions of years, it is burning out at a rate that would not allow it to have been that far back. Proof again that the very balance of things in this earth are held in balance by a creator. Fossil records prove the existence of the whole realm of creatures existing together not separate. I live in a very well known fossil area. Interestingly the fossil record shows 90 million year old fossils from one period of so called time, being above some of 120 million year old so called...and it gets worse, things that didn't exist together in evolution are all being found together. Isn't that a hoot. No, guys, you can read all you want and listen to all the gibberish the evolutions throw at you and you con't have a leg to stand on...oh, and you have legs, Hydromaxmm, not fins...because you are made that way. You never had fins. There is no, absolutely no, evidence for the cross over and the missing link.

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You make numerous claims above, but each on inspection turns up to be based on really really bad science.

For instance, the basis for your claims that the lifetime of the sun is too short. You didn't cite your basis, but that old canard has been kicking around for years. As I recall it is based not on the fusion nuclear model of the sun, but on some crank's estimate of the shrinkage rate of the sun based on old astronomical measurements of the sun's diameter over the previous decades.

In actuality, the diameter of the sun is hard to measure exactly, especially in the past, due to the limitations of optical instruments determining the boundry between the "atmosphere" and the "surface." Since it is a gaeous ball, the determination is somewhat arbitrary, hence there are variations in estimates. From this, some creationist crank played numbers games and determined the sun was shrinking at a high rate of speed. The reality is that it is just error noise in the measurements. The sun really isn't shrinking at a high rate.

As for mixed age fossils -- it really depends on who is claiming them to be mixed.

Before the era of nuclear methods, fossil ages were classified by the strata they were found in. In a somewhat iterative process, remote strata could be correlated by similar type fossils. Note that some species exist over long periods of time and so span several strata. Others exist only for a limited time, and appear only in a certain strata.

These strata have to be undisturbed at the time of discovery for such age estimates to be made. Erosion and glaciers can easily mix artifacts from several strata and redeposit them downstream. This is a recognized disturbance in the strata identification and it represents a loss of information. It doesn't prove reverse evolution -- just that natural events mixed things up after the fact.

Finally, since the development of nuclear science, they have been able to correlate strata layers with absolute ages based upon decay rates of radioactive isotopes.

One useful method involves a specific decay that produces a decay product that is a gas. During times of volcanic eruption, this gas escapes, reseting the "clock." The rock cools and hardens and the gas begins to build up again. The amount of gas in the solid rock versus the amount of radioactive isotope gives the age since the eruption. This is good for hundreds of millions of years.

Volcanic ash found in the strata gives the ages of the strata -- which by the above earlier correlation between strata worldwide, gives the age of that strata worldwide.

There are several different radioactive isotope age methods. They apply in different situations. But they all seem to give consistent results -- the earth is billions of years old, the bulk of evolution has occurred over the past 500 million years.