Very first time!

[skarmclops]

Hey, I'm back with another question. So, yesterday I made the bold move by ordering my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]X-40[/words]... Today I received my clippers in the mail, and I plan on taking a shower, get my parts soft and shave away.

I just want some feedback on my intentions:

• 
  I will shower for a good deal of time, letting the water soften up my groin.
  The heat should be the equivalent of wrapping a washcloth around the penis for some minutes. After my penis loosens up, I will stretch the penis using moderate pressure for the sake of finding out my limitations and to gauge my technique.
  After loosening the penis, I will use some vaseline and begin jelqing with a semi-erect penis--I believe I need to use an "okay" grip and tightly(but not suffocating tight) grip from the base of the penis and work my way up to the bottom of my glans in a slow, milking motion. I will try an overhand grip, as I read from a post that it gives you deeper jeqling motions, resulting in more penis tissue being worked out.
  I will try to do 100 jelqs, while at the same time carefully taking note of how my body will respond: whether I am gripping too hard(sharp pain, perhaps), or not using enough pressure(no feeling of soreness), and even if I jelq too much(fatigue).
  Finally, I will warm down(would like some advice on how to do that.)
  
  

So, please critique my workout. I'm sure you guys could lead me on the right path. and one more question: is jelqing with a full erection dangerous? Do I stand a better chance of rupturing my capillaries due to the strong pressure, especially since I am an unconditioned newbie?

I want to keep myself occupied and venture into manual Penis Enlargement before my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] will make its debut! Much advice will be truly appreciated; here's to a bigger me in the near future!

 

[NoStopping]

You seem very careful and that's good. What you just described is a very good way to start. However, there is a difference between a good washcloth warm-up and showering. I can get my washcloth up to a very high temperature and by doing that my penis will become soft like a wet sponge. With showering I never get close to that.

You can warm-down with another warm-up (I prefer a washcloth).
Jelqing with a full erection (100%) is not for a newbie and I myself will never do this at all. The chance of injuring yourself is just bigger, BUT the chance of gaining can increase as well. It's just what you prefer. I prefer health and keeping my penis 'alive'.
Yes, you have more chance to injure yourself because your penis is unconditioned.

Just one more thing: measure really, really, really good and write it down. Lenght and girth (with girth you should write down where you measured).

Good luck.

 

[DLD]

Measurements are the most important part of Penis Enlargement. Without accurate measurements you will be guessing your your gains. Nothing is worse than not knowing if you gained or not.

 

[skarmclops]

First and foremost, thanks for reminding me that I should measure myself up. I'm going to buy me some measuring tape because I only have a ruler. My BPenis EnlargementL was 6.4... not bad. As for girth, I think it is about 5"....which is why I need to buy some tape so I "know" and not "think" on its actual measurement lol.

Yesterday was my first "official" Penis Enlargement workout; I violated a commandment by not warming up or even stretching. I just did a couple of quick jelqs(not the 100 as I said I would try) just to understand the motion. I experimented with different grips and pressure, and if I am doing right, I squeeze from the bottom of my shaft to the glans, and when I glide up I concentrate on putting pressure on the corpus cavernorum(I increase pressure because I've noticed that my grip gets lighter as I travel up my shaft, which gets slightly thicker on the trip, so I accordingly increase the pressure slightly). If I don't hold on tight enough, it feels like I'm just regularly stroking the penis during masturbation...no bueno. I just want to know if I am on the right track as to perfecting my jelq asap and in the safest manner possible. And this was done semi-erect.

And now to rectify my violation of the warm-up! I am making this a lot more harder than it is, I know lol, but I am assuming that I make the washcloth as hot as I can handle and wrap it up for about 3 minutes, rewarm it up again for 2 more times again? And after that, do I THEN stretch, then proceed to jelq in the order of "warm-up>stretch>jelq>warm down"?

Once again, thanks in advance for your warming and encouraging responses. I will scrutinize this and everything else you Penis Enlargement-Encyclopedias have to offer me. Just wait until my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] comes in the mail, because round 3 of the question cycle will commence(and yes, I use the search feature in the top-right part of the site, lol)

 

[skarmclops]

Okay, so the past three days I have been taking my jelqing much more seriously. I warmed up by doing three sets of a hot wash cloth wrapped around my penis, three minutes each. My penis was super soft and felt like a gummy worm afterwards, lol. I kept a hot bowl of water so I wouldn't need to constantly run to and from the bathroom.

Afterwards, I focused on my stretches--the same stretches featured in DLD's [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/penis-enlargement-newbie-forum/1597-dlds-first-routine-i-gained-2-inches-with-this-routine-full-tutorial.html]Newbie Routine[/words]. I slightly modified it to only two sets of each stretch and rotary, as it was pretty intense. I'm assumed that stretches were just part of the warm-up, and then I noticed it said "length routine." But, you know what, originally girth was my priority--and still is--I might as well try these stretches out and lengthen my penis in the process. I have absolutely nothing to lose, but inches of woman pleasing nightstick to gain! Now, I believe I am doing them right because at the end, I feel a slight burning sensation just as if I were working my legs in the gym by doing squats. They burn and feel exhausted at the end, but they are not in acute pain. Oh, and three days later the skin at the base, if I am under no illusion, feels a little stretched out. Again, I don't know for sure if this is normal or if it's actual work...I need to take better notes of what I am doing. I don't want to guess lol.

Afterwards, I moved on to my jelqs. Once again, I used an "okay" grip and gripped my semi-erect penis at the very base, grip it tightly and slide it up. What I tried--and so far like--is immediately clamping the base with my other hand as soon as I work my way up. I feel more expansion this way, at least I hope I am technically correct. It just feels more intense to jelq upwards while the other hand is clamping the bottom. Then, as soon as that hand finishes the movement, the clamped hand immediately jelqs upwards. I can now see how jelqs also give you some length; the constant pulling motion that is involved pulls your suspensory ligaments, doesn't it? Because it's very similar to just doing a straight-out center stretch, except this force is induced as a result of the jelqing motion rather than one, stationary source of tension. I hope I described without any vagueness.

Finally, I take paramount as to how my penis is feeling during my jelqing. Again, I don't feel any pain and I can probably attribute it to my sufficient warm up session. Of course, when I am done, I do a warm down.

I'm about to begin another session. Last night I completed 150 jelqs(when I jelq, I really take my time and make it a slow and controlled movment). I did 100 continuous jelqs, took a small pause because my hands were fatigued, then completed another 50 jelqs. I would just like some more insight and the approval of you vets as to if I am on the right track. Thank you!

 

[skarmclops]

Sorry for the consequtive third post. I just wanted update you guys with the good news(and for some responses...I am very quantitative and precise when it comes to something as serious as Penis Enlargement).

I finally received my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] around 7 in the evening via UPS. The [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]X-40[/words] is a real beauty--at least the blue colored model. In intense anticipation of my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words], I zealously used my box cutter and opened it up. Surely enough, just as DLD's video said, everything is double-wrapped; the user's privacy indeed is a top priority. I opened the long, rectangular box and my heart was beating rapidly as I dug into the box and dug my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] out of its box.

I removed my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] and was immediately intimidated by my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]X-40[/words] model. What scares me even more is that there is a bigger model, but [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]X-40[/words] is not going to be in my bathroom anytime soon. For today's routine, I only practiced with the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]. No jeqling/stretches today. At first, it was definitely awkward in trying to figure this thing out. But it turns out that the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] indeed is not an impossible conundrum. At first, I was being a sissy with the pumping and was only using one hand. I was wondering for 10 minutes why I was not feeling the pump, this expansion that everyone and their fathers were talking about! I went in flaccid and only hit 120. So, I read some quick info on the forum and went in again. MUCH BETTER this time; I used two hands and was more aggressive this time with the force and I really felt the suction on my pelvic bone. I could actually stand up straight and the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] would not leave me...not even gravity could bring it down. It was just my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] and I as we shared an intense and immediate bonding.

I left it on my penis for 10 minutes, and I hit ~165 and I really felt my penis desperately trying to expand itself. I removed my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] and I did not notice a significant difference. I could have made small, superficial differences in temp. girth. I don't think I had any fluid retention, but once again this was only a test session.

Oh, and I woke up this morning with the BEST case of morning wood, I swear! I immediately measured out of curiosity. Yesterday, I measured my EG and it came out to 5", maybe just a millimeter less. Today, I measured at an incredible 5 and 1/4" in girth. I don't know if I was just having a really horny morning wood, but I measured my girth so many times and I it was an even 5" each and every time. Most likely being a temporary gain, I am beyond pleased with what just ONE pumping session has procured for me. Today, I am going to reward my penis with some more jelqing and stretching, and try to combine both into a routine. As a matter of fact, I know that there is a thread here someone--I think called "DLD's [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/penis-enlargement-newbie-forum/1597-dlds-first-routine-i-gained-2-inches-with-this-routine-full-tutorial.html]newbie routine[/words]." I looked high and low for this thread but to no avail!

I'm going to get hard later and measure my girth again. As a young and dumb 18 year old, I have made many stupid financial decisions(g-shocks when the dough was low, lol). But, this is one of my best investments I have ever made--maybe this has inspired me to become a financial consultant and recommend my client to buy a [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]...it could possibly re-stimulate the economy and make China forgive us for our trillions of dollars in debt to them all while bringing world wide peace. Oh, a man can dream, can't he? But seriously, thanks for convincing me to buy the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]. And I take back what I said about the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]X-40[/words], because I hope it will be sitting in my bathroom ASAP now!

 

[DLD]

I'm going to get hard later and measure my girth again. As a young and dumb 18 year old, I have made many stupid financial decisions(g-shocks when the dough was low, lol). But, this is one of my best investments I have ever made--maybe this has inspired me to become a financial consultant and recommend my client to buy a [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]...it could possibly re-stimulate the economy and make China forgive us for our trillions of dollars in debt to them all while bringing world wide peace. Oh, a man can dream, can't he? But seriously, thanks for convincing me to buy the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]. And I take back what I said about the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]X-40[/words], because I hope it will be sitting in my bathroom ASAP now!

It is definitely doing better than most stocks I guess the nest best thing to invest in after the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] is PM's

 

[skarmclops]

Back with a small update! I just finished a workout with my new [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] and I am loving it!

Tonight, I warmed up again with a warm washcloth for 10 minutes, then I moved on to the stretches as recommended in the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] [words=http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/penis-enlargement-newbie-forum/1597-dlds-first-routine-i-gained-2-inches-with-this-routine-full-tutorial.html]newbie routine[/words]. I do all stretches(especially behind the cheek stretches/straight down..great pull on the ligs!).

Afterwards, I go on to my girth session and do the recommend 150 jeqls + 10 minutes of pumping in two sets. My only concern is my session after the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]: my penis is not visibly bigger, if any, after I remove my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]. I am confident that I am using sufficient pressure: I pumped it up to 170 as my max and I could really feel the pressure sucking on to my skin. I left it on for 10 minutes. And the seal is very tight... there are no air pockets that will be detrimental to the pressure. If I do not have fluid retention, does this mean that I did not maximize my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] workout? Is every [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] user supposed to experience temporary gains in girth? Does my penis still experience the expansion that will force the corpus cavernosa to gradually expand?

And finally, I need some tips on maintaining my erection during the workout. I find it easy to lose it for some reason. Usually, after I stretch, it's somewhat tougher to get harder on command, even with the movies and me trying to kegel blood into my penis. I prefer to enter my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] at least semi-erect. Should I just split my stretching and girth routine into different days?

 

[Faber]

If I do not have fluid retention, does this mean that I did not maximize my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] workout?
I don't think so. One thing I did notice is that if I properly warm up and do 5min of Jelqs the ligaments in penis are less tense and I can have a much better [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] session.

Is every [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] user supposed to experience temporary gains in girth?
I belive so. It makes sense since the pressure is much lower inside the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]. A lot of the "gains" is fluid retention.

Does my penis still experience the expansion that will force the corpus cavernosa to gradually expand?
?

And finally, I need some tips on maintaining my erection during the workout.
I am rarely erect when pumping (Bathmate). I enter the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] flaccid or semi-erect. The pressure does its job and the penis expends inside the chamber.

 

[DLD]

Fluid retention happens to some but not all. It is in no way a sign of effectiveness, it is only something that happens to certain men when there is excessive pumping. Your overall girth should expand with every session when training, this is tissue expansion from within. The Corpus Cavernosum is part of the expansion, the more blood it is forced to hold the larger it becomes. In order to keep erect I use adult entertainment and Performa5 pills. Works great for me and much cheaper than when I use Viagra. Hope this helps.

DLD

 

[skarmclops]

Back again with a small update, along with more of your favorites: questions!

Okay, so yesterday I warmed up a little and began my stretches. I did all my stretches again, and then did some kegals + stimulation to get semi-erect. I did 150 jelqs + 10 minutes of the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words], done in two sets. Then I finished with my warm down,

And now, for my questions: I feel a burning sensation in my suspensory ligaments after my stretches. No sharp pain, just a small burn when I move the penis. Is this assurance that I used an ample amount of pressure that my ligaments can handle?

Also, at the end of my jelqing/Bathmate routine, my penis is barely sore, if sore at all. When I jelq, I used an overhand grip and squeeze tightly. I do see more veins coming out, and then I put on the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] for 10 minutes. My question is similar to my question about the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] and having no FR...if I have no soreness/engorgement does this mean that I am not using enough force? I am definitely not using light pressure while avoiding a suffocating kung fu grip. I just want to be absolutely assured that I am getting the maximum engorgement possible and constantly push my capillaries to their limit. Is my 10 minute warm-up AND warm-down the reason I feel no soreness/see any FR?

If I did a quick video of my jelqing technique would you be willing to critique that? I do not mean to come off as creepy lol.

 

[DLD]

If I did a quick video of my jelqing technique would you be willing to critique that? I do not mean to come off as creepy lol.

I have seen more dick than a whore in a Holyoke! Not creepy at all an we will give you very good feedback on your form.

 

[skarmclops]

Okay, so I am back with some updates! My Penis Enlargement training has been going well! I have been doing my best to religiously do my workouts every day. Sometimes I get lazy and skip a day(or two)...I admit that I am breaking a commandment.

I began to count my jelqs in series of minutes, rather than counting them rep by rep. Ultimately, I would easily lose count and focus and would guess how many rips I did as minutes went on. So, then I decided to why not count the minutes since I could easily do that lol. As always, I use ample pressure on each jelq and visually focus on the trapping of blood and internal pressure pushing my capillaries to their limit, and microscopically causing engorgement of the penis which will result in a thicker penis.

I decided to make stretching a part of my routine as well. I figured I might as well do length work since length + girth go hand-in-hand. My routine is a small modification of DLD's newbie's routine. First set I do 30 seconds of all of the stretches, then the second set is 35 seconds, and the fourth set is 40 seconds, along with my rotary stretches(I do 15 rotaries clockwise, and another 15 going counterclockwise).

And now, the questioning potion of my post:

Should I invest in horny goat weed or something similar that will keep my EQ at a consistent level? I don't know if it's the stretching since I do length work followed by girth, but I have to concentrate to attain the semi-erect state. I normally don't lose it during my jelqs since the exercise itself promotes blood entering my penis. But then when I am done with one set, I quickly pop my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] out and fill it with water only for my penis to quickly return to the flaccid state! So, now I have one hand on the pressure valve since it is the only way to hold it, and the other mild trying to simulate the penis so more blood fills my penis. I prefer to enter my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] semi-erect/erect, so I get very vexed when this happens. This happened to me today...I had a great stretching session but my girth workout didn't work so well. I jeqled for five minutes and then did 5 minutes of my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words](I hit ~190 for a personal record!). Then I removed my penis and tried to get it hard again after that. I called it quits after a couple of minutes and warmed down. I don't know if it was because I had nothing to get prior to that point + me being slightly tired(I went to bed as soon as I finished my workout). I think I already have the answer that those two factors were my catalyst to my premature ending...lol. But I just wanted additional confirmation for you guys and maybe if it's okay if this occurs every now and then. At least my ligaments are sore atm from my length workout.

My stretching is going pretty well since I feel the burn more often. I read that the first couple of weeks, stretching mainly stretches your skin. My scrotal skin definitely seems to be a big stretched out and I am going to attempt to incorporate some testicle massaging and make my balls hand lower and grow in size(does the massage increase size as well or is this just testicle jeqling?) I am guessing that it's similar to people who lose weight and have saggy skin..the best way to counter that is to build more muscle to fill up the space, just like I will eventually need bigger balls to accommodate this skin and internal penis that is being pulled out.

But enough of me digressing: so after this skin is stretched, then stretch finally targets the tunica and the ligaments?

And now, again the guestion about temporary girth, which I really haven't experienced yet. Even after the jeqling and [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words], I still have not really seen a temporary engorgement. If anything, my member returns to its regular size shortly after my workout, as if nothing happened. I just want to be confident that what I am doing is not wasting my time.

 

[DLD]

Okay, so I am back with some updates! My Penis Enlargement training has been going well! I have been doing my best to religiously do my workouts every day. Sometimes I get lazy and skip a day(or two)...I admit that I am breaking a commandment.

I began to count my jelqs in series of minutes, rather than counting them rep by rep. Ultimately, I would easily lose count and focus and would guess how many rips I did as minutes went on. So, then I decided to why not count the minutes since I could easily do that lol. As always, I use ample pressure on each jelq and visually focus on the trapping of blood and internal pressure pushing my capillaries to their limit, and microscopically causing engorgement of the penis which will result in a thicker penis.

I decided to make stretching a part of my routine as well. I figured I might as well do length work since length + girth go hand-in-hand. My routine is a small modification of DLD's newbie's routine. First set I do 30 seconds of all of the stretches, then the second set is 35 seconds, and the fourth set is 40 seconds, along with my rotary stretches(I do 15 rotaries clockwise, and another 15 going counterclockwise).

And now, the questioning potion of my post:

Should I invest in horny goat weed or something similar that will keep my EQ at a consistent level? I don't know if it's the stretching since I do length work followed by girth, but I have to concentrate to attain the semi-erect state. I normally don't lose it during my jelqs since the exercise itself promotes blood entering my penis. But then when I am done with one set, I quickly pop my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] out and fill it with water only for my penis to quickly return to the flaccid state! So, now I have one hand on the pressure valve since it is the only way to hold it, and the other mild trying to simulate the penis so more blood fills my penis. I prefer to enter my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words] semi-erect/erect, so I get very vexed when this happens. This happened to me today...I had a great stretching session but my girth workout didn't work so well. I jeqled for five minutes and then did 5 minutes of my [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words](I hit ~190 for a personal record!). Then I removed my penis and tried to get it hard again after that. I called it quits after a couple of minutes and warmed down. I don't know if it was because I had nothing to get prior to that point + me being slightly tired(I went to bed as soon as I finished my workout). I think I already have the answer that those two factors were my catalyst to my premature ending...lol. But I just wanted additional confirmation for you guys and maybe if it's okay if this occurs every now and then. At least my ligaments are sore atm from my length workout.

My stretching is going pretty well since I feel the burn more often. I read that the first couple of weeks, stretching mainly stretches your skin. My scrotal skin definitely seems to be a big stretched out and I am going to attempt to incorporate some testicle massaging and make my balls hand lower and grow in size(does the massage increase size as well or is this just testicle jeqling?) I am guessing that it's similar to people who lose weight and have saggy skin..the best way to counter that is to build more muscle to fill up the space, just like I will eventually need bigger balls to accommodate this skin and internal penis that is being pulled out.

But enough of me digressing: so after this skin is stretched, then stretch finally targets the tunica and the ligaments?

And now, again the guestion about temporary girth, which I really haven't experienced yet. Even after the jeqling and [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words], I still have not really seen a temporary engorgement. If anything, my member returns to its regular size shortly after my workout, as if nothing happened. I just want to be confident that what I am doing is not wasting my time.

EQ level or erection level can be helped with some of the supplements available. I would research this more.

Skin stretches as you stretch your ligaments and tunica. It is a constant process of stretching all of these components that make Penis Enlargement what it is.

Yes, you should be seeing temporary gains in girth after jelqing and using the [words=https://officialhydromaxpump.com/?uid=6&oid=2&affid=98 ]Bathmate[/words]. If you aren't you are not doing something correctly. The gain does not need to be massive, but there should always be something. I would say a minimum of ¼" in girth, length can be less.