OK DS, let me try to sort out the mess I made of my last post. I ask your forgiveness for my not being able to express my thoughts in a particularly coherent manner, as I have a brain injury that sometimes obscures my ability to clearly put in words that which is so clear in my head.
Firstly, you wrote, “I don't see how spending a day with a flower makes me KNOW that God made it.” This is a little like arguing that a chocolate cake is not to your liking before trying it. I stated that you need only spend an entire day with a flower, and you dismissed the idea without trying it. So as far as I can see, you can choose not to try my suggestion, but then have no position to argue it’s ineffectiveness. Spend a day, test my theorem, then we will have a frame of reference to discuss this further - that IS science.
I see in you an anger towards the church. In many of the things you have said I find myself in full agreement. Let me clarify my position a bit for you. I think the Christian church in America in general has completely failed us. Keep in mind the church is an institution, it exists (not unlike the Government) to support itself first. Men with power often seek to expand such, and the church is not exempt from this at all.
Hindus believe that all paths to God are valid. As a Christian heretic, so do I. I am a Buddhist, and a Christian if labels are necessary. But I see much truth in Islam (I particularly find the Sufi branch quite refreshing, and could easily go that way under the right circumstances), and in quite a few of the Eastern traditions. The history of Christianity leaves much to be desired, to be sure. As an example, most Christians accept the Bible as God’s word without question. History shows that it was commissioned by Constantine, not God himself. Jesus never once said, “Write down what I say, collect the works, and make a holy book.” God never told Peter to do so either.
Constantine, however, decided that the best way to consolidate a broken Roman Empire and make it great once more was to declare one state religion. Constantine, a nonbeliever, created the Catholic Church. It was Constantine who ordered that the fragments of stories about Christ be collected, sifted through, and “canonized” into a “Word of God”. Worked out nicely for him.
So if I readily admit that the Word of God is a fabrication of a secular man (who had an agenda of his own), how can I defend God? Because God is not a book. A book is made of dead paper, has no life, and is in every way a great example of a creation of man. We men make great things, but none of our creations live. The church is a creation of man. The Catholic Church was originally intended as a method of control, as were most religious (and non-religious) institutions.
Then came the great Christian reformers, Luther leading the way. (Good movie about him out now, by the way). Luther wanted each man to be able to find God himself, without being told who and what he was by the all knowing (and very corrupt at the time) church. A little of that “find it for yourself” exists to this day in Protestantism, though to be sure, but only if it is contained in Constantine’s bible - anything beyond that is heresy.
So do I believe the Christian “Bible” to be wrong? Is it full of lies? No, I find in it great truths, though perhaps not the whole truth. There are a great many texts that exist still today that earlier followers of Christ read and enjoyed. Some of them are not as good at encouraging a populous to pay taxes to the government and tithes to the church. Others give very interesting spins to contemporary Christian thought. I particularly like the Gospel of Thomas, where Jesus tells us God is not found in a building but out in nature. Ahh, but I digress.
What is this diatribe about? I see Christianity, and Islam, and other organized religions much as the ancient Chinese saw all religion - as a finger pointing to the moon. One can find the moon on his own, but when one is having little success or is unsure which light in the sky is really the moon, it is helpful if a friend points it out for him. Once the moon is seen and recognized, the finger no longer is necessary - one can view the moon from that evening on directly, by himself. Today’s Catholic church would have you believe that the moon is only viewable through their finger. And the Protestants that you must know every inch of the finger, each intricacy, in order to truly see the moon.
Those in the east would tell you that if you look within yourself deeply, the moon will be apparent. I agree with them to a point, as I meditate hours every day and God is so apparent in the silence that it is humorous to me to speak with those who do not believe. What I was trying to say earlier DS, is that you don’t need any of that to know God. I gave a simple challenge - watch a flower for an entire day and write me back telling me how God does not exist. Prove my theorem wrong using your own, much touted, scientific method.
You also wrote, “Prayer won't get you anywhere, but getting off your ass and doing something certainly will”. I agree almost completely with your assessment here too. Today, in America, Christians think prayer is something you do TO God. A one way path of communication whereby you ask for something, and if it suits God, you get it. What a crock. God is not a crutch, nor does he exist to manifest our desires. This is not taught anywhere in the Christian bible. Yet, somehow, the church has encouraged such meaningless blabbering. Christ teaches it is a private communication with God. Christ didn’t pray for God to do things for him, he “got off his ass” and did it himself, much like you. (And like you, he didn’t think much of organized religion either - did you know you had so much in common?)
Christ gave us an example of communication - he spent 40 days alone with God. Not many Christians have or would ever try such a thing (I have, several times, and I highly recommend it by the way). No wonder Prayer is so easily dismissed - to do it right requires a lot of time and effort! So the church teaches you some meaningless method that suits it’s needs. I have never seen a Christian church, ever, teach you how to listen during prayer for a response. They want you to ask for “things” and not wait for an answer, it keeps you coming back and “donating” money! You came to the correct conclusion, and I wholeheartedly support your wise decision.
I am sorry that you saw and were disturbed by a man, most likely an acquaintance of yours, perhaps even a good friend, pass in church. Death is not an easy thing to understand, and most spend more time running away from it than studying it. I have an unfortunate amount of experience with death, and so have learned a bit. I have held many dyeing men in my arms and watched the spark of life leave them. I myself have been flat-lined twice. What I can assure you is that since we all have to die sometime, there is no better death than one that comes upon you when you are doing something you love, and are surrounded by people you love. If the man that died found comfort in Church, if he enjoyed his time there, then he had a good death.
Both times I died, I left my body and could observe what was around me. In both cases it was a miserable place, and I felt no comfort watching strangers beat on my body or cut it open. Noise and pandemonium, wrapped up in spattered blood. I know that experience would have been much more comforting if just one person I loved was present. I imagine (in what is left of my mind) that man who died in your church surrounded by love and caring friends. Frankly, I envy his death. I see the time and place of his passing as a great gift. Someday, I think you will too. In the mean time, I am sorry it caused you so much distress.
Science is trying hard to explain the experiences of those, who like me, died and returned. What is the white light, why are we drawn to it, how are we aware of what is happening in the room, or even outside it? How can we describe things we could not possibly have seen around us so accurately and in such detail? So far, not much from those learned scholars. Those of us that have been there, though, we get it.
I believe the reason the overwhelming majority of people on earth believe in God is not because they are ignorant (though surely some are). I believe that at some deep level, we all can feel the presence. Those of us who spend a great deal of time in quiet contemplation and meditation see this more clearly, as God is most easily seen in the quiet, simple things (great scripture DLD!). It is why the poor and needy see him more clearly than the affluent. They have quiet and simplicity forced upon them. It is why the affluent find God obscured, they have no time or patience for quiet or simplicity.
I appreciate that you believe you know what you will or will not do when that time comes upon you, like it will all of us. I am only saying that you should be aware that what you think you believe today, how you think you will act when the time comes, might not be how it goes down at all. I assert again that in many observed deaths I really have not seen many atheists die atheists.
