Going vegan?

Soy protein sucks, FYI:

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm

You can easily find more information about the down-sides of Soy.

9 Please don't speak to me like I am a child. I Know the difference between vegan and vegetarian. And I know what Stuff's stance is. He just is a hypocryte. Read his posts and watch the video that he posted.

I don't see any hypocrisy in Stuff_'s posts. But you can defend your flaming him as much as you like, but saying "YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE" and calling him a propagandist is a flame and will not be tolerated no matter what your defense. This is an adult forum, and we expect you to be able to debate like adults. Your post was childish. What kind of response did you expect?

So if I dropped the F-bomb would have been alright? I can't call someone a hypocryte and a propogandist even if they are. Then that gives people like him a license to say whatever they want.

Saying that someone is contradicting themselves, or saying "you're being hypocritical" is much different than saying "YOU FUCKING HYPOCRYTE. Please don't hijack this thread anymore you propogandist." There's something called tact, which you seem to lack. I don't care if you curse, but don't flame people. End of discussion.

I said before and I'll say it again. He is a hypocryte and a propogandist and I no longer want to here his opinion. I agree I should have said it better but if you think I'm going to backdown on the issue that's just bullshit.

I never asked you to back down. But, he's just as entitled to post in this thread as you are. You may not like what he posts, but too bad. It's his opinion.

BTW, just because you disagree with an opinion doesn't make it bullshit.

I think you just don't understand my position at all, due to your own biases and the fact that I've hardly given any information about it, or myself, or my beliefs, as well as the way I presented it. From my very first post I said right out that I'm not going to make a nice presentation of it and get into the intricacies and said that therefore I am sure to be flamed, and I was. I felt like just coming right out and saying the result of it all, which makes no sense to most unless they also see all the points leading up to it and many other intricate scientific aspects, and physical, mental, spiritual, and karmic aspects. Of course, though, now I have used up my welcome by not making such a presentation, but I didn't feel it was the time or place to get that deep into it, I figured just the basis and result was wanted. Ah well *shrug* I'm not affected by the namecalling, I know what's real and what isn't, what's hipocracy and what isn't, and what's propaganda and what isn't. I'm just not very good at presenting information in a way that everyone can begin to understand it. I know I'm not welcome here anymore and that you hate me, Jason1, but honestly I'm not bothered because I understand that you don't understand what I was even getting at, even if you think you do. I didn't even give very much information, and if I do now, your mind is already set against it so because of that, you'll just block it all. I tried to help, but I suppose I approached it in all the wrong ways. I'm sorry to have been a disturbance.

Yeah... everything that Shafty said.

Yep, that's why vegetarians are more healthy.

Shafty said:

There are no studies which would indicate that vegans are healthier in any way. Quite the contrary; they have weaker immune systems and often suffer from various ailments.

Click to expand...

I've never seen a study that shows corpse-eaters being more healthy, and I even posted studies that say vegetarians are more healthy, studies you claimed didn't exist... before you said that.

Shafty said:

Again, I must stress that certain amino acids can only be aquired through the consumption of meat. Vegetable based proteins are a very poor substitute because of their poor biological value, but I suppose you could do fine with dairy products alone.

Click to expand...

There is simply no truth to that at all.

Protien is protien.

But then, I'm just pushing my luck with posting here because I'm no longer welcome. I just love talking about purity though, and helping people know the actual truth about it (whether they understand it or not).

The meat vs vegan diet is interesting. Do realize one thing: There are things in meat that you simply can't replace by going vegan. There was a very interesting article in Mens Health two months ago that lists all of the things that meat has that you can't replace the vegan way. Can't find the article now, but I'll mention the very important element that I know first hand: you can't get creatine going vegan.

As I'm sure you guys know, creatine is a muscle building compound found abundantly in red meat. When creatine supplements first came out, they were wrongly lumped together with steroids because they quite frankly worked in building muscle mass. Anyway, you can now get creatine at any GNC and study after study shows that not only is creatine safe, but they're even using it now for older people who are frail. Using creatine builds their bodies and allows them to resist bone breaks. There's no argument to the fact that this is something that meat provides (especially red meat) and going vegan doesn't.

Next, the argument that one should go vegan because they don't want to kill doesn't make sense to me. As others have pointed out previously, anything that you eat is organic and must be killed to be eaten. We don't eat "dead"
matter! The only argument can be that you don't like the way that the animals are being killed. To me, there are SOOO many other injustices that I can focus on other than the way animals are killed. Maybe we should give them lethal injections. They've actually done studies where plants were hooked up to electrodes to see how the respond to different stimuli. When threatened, plants stress out like any living animal would.

Now the whole thing regarding people liking meat because they like the taste of blood and violence...let's just move on, shall we?

The argument that we're not meant to eat meat because we don't have huge claws and teeth like lions is sili. I can come up with a long list of animals that consume meat and don't have huge pointy canines.

Look, different strokes for different folks. If you want to go Vegan because you feel "healthier", go for it. I work out and have done so for almost 20 years. Every time I go to the doctor, they're amazed that I weigh over 200 lbs (muscle, baby) at 6'0" but have such low blood pressure, cholesterol and resting heart rate. When I'm 65, I won't have to worry about the osteoperosis and therefore much greater chance of breaking bones because I refused to take advantage of the benefits of meat.

Again, realize that there are a number of other benefits to eating meat. I just can't find the article and will only speak what I know.

BigYellow9999 said:

The meat vs vegan diet is interesting. Do realize one thing: There are things in meat that you simply can't replace by going vegan. There was a very interesting article in Mens Health two months ago that lists all of the things that meat has that you can't replace the vegan way. Can't find the article now, but I'll mention the very important element that I know first hand: you can't get creatine going vegan.

As I'm sure you guys know, creatine is a muscle building compound found abundantly in red meat. When creatine supplements first came out, they were wrongly lumped together with steroids because they quite frankly worked in building muscle mass. Anyway, you can now get creatine at any GNC and study after study shows that not only is creatine safe, but they're even using it now for older people who are frail. Using creatine builds their bodies and allows them to resist bone breaks. There's no argument to the fact that this is something that meat provides (especially red meat) and going vegan doesn't.

Click to expand...

It seems this muscle building argument always comes up when talking about vegetarian vs meat diets.

BigYellow, if what you say is true about needing the creatine and other substances only found in meat to build muscle, explain to me where a gorilla gets its strength? Gorillas are strict vegetarians. I believe, if given a choice, they would subsist entirely on oranges. And being they are much stronger physically than a human, this Mens Health argument about needing meat for strength/muscle building makes no sense. Granted, we are not gorillas, but we are much more similar to a gorilla than, say, a lion or tiger.

Also, on the subject of protein, the time in life when a human being needs the most protein is very early in life; pretty much during the years when a baby is breastfeeding. Human mother's milk is about 12% protein. About the same percentage found in broccoli. Also, I don't believe breast milk contains any meat.

Stuff, the reason why I haven't posted any links is because arguing with you is like trying to slam my face into a brick wall. I could present you with a ton of info and you would reject it all. It's no use arguing with someone who has a strong moral sentiment attached to the subject you're arguing about. For my part, I was done with this thread, and I won't post any more if I can help it.

B12 deficiency, iodine deficiency, weak muscles, poor muscle-to-fat ratio, weak immune systems, brittle bones, low testosterone, anemia.. that is but a short list of the ailments pure vegans suffer from. And don't give me any of your 'my testosterone is higher ever since I stopped eating meat', because that is physiologically impossible. Unless your test has increased though another pathway, that is. It is a FACT that you NEED a certain amount (albeit a small one) of animal fats and cholesterol to make testosterone.

You should also realize that the health benefits from not eating meat can only be reaped by avoiding red meat. The average American who consumes large quantities of red meat is eating very unhealthy in other aspects, too- the red meat is the smallest factor to take into consideration when you look at the health of the general, high protein consuming populace.

And please, give it up with the 'protein is protein' argument. That is bullshit.
Here's an interesting article: http://www.universalnutrition.com/enter/high_bandwidth/universal_matters/UMV4_I4/pg_13.html

And another one:

http://www.vitafly.com/article148.html

Bear in mind that these articles do not apply to bodybuilders alone, but rather to any physically active person. Of course you can get your required protein if you eat a ton of rice every day- IF YOU ARE A COUCH POTATO.

jGman said:

It seems this muscle building argument always comes up when talking about vegetarian vs meat diets.

BigYellow, if what you say is true about needing the creatine and other substances only found in meat to build muscle, explain to me where a gorilla gets its strength? Gorillas are strict vegetarians. I believe, if given a choice, they would subsist entirely on oranges. And being they are much stronger physically than a human, this Mens Health argument about needing meat for strength/muscle building makes no sense. Granted, we are not gorillas, but we are much more similar to a gorilla than, say, a lion or tiger.

Also, on the subject of protein, the time in life when a human being needs the most protein is very early in life; pretty much during the years when a baby is breastfeeding. Human mother's milk is about 12% protein. About the same percentage found in broccoli. Also, I don't believe breast milk contains any meat.

Click to expand...

And jGman, if you go down that road, where do elephants or hippos get their great strength? Because they are built differently.
And, for the record, gorillas have testosterone levels that are ridiculously high compared to humans. Besides, the average modern man is a weak fleshbag when compared to our cavemen ancestors. It is through evolution into our seated lifestyle that we have shed off our muscles and great strength.

The way you speak about it, I should be dead... instead of much, much more healthy than when I ate meat, and feeling indescribably better. Yes my test levels are higher, it is very noticeable, so it is possible. Most of the arguements you and the links you gave are tailored for -vegans-, not -vegetarians-, there's a difference! We drink milk. Milk is very healthy. Humans drink milk from the time that they are born, and can until the day they die. We just switch from human milk to cow's milk. There is plenty of nutrition in the cow's blood, and it is all also in her milk. The civilized, intelligent human will get the nutrition from the correct and humane source - the milk. Killing the cow for her blood instead of drinking her milk is the very same as killing your mother as an infant for her blood instead of drinking her milk. Is that a very nice thing to do? No, it is sinful. In the end when all debates cease, it just comes down to the matter of sin.

The guy in that article who claimed atrophy when going vegetarian, he used the wrong word. He meant to say vegan because he said he took no dairy. And even that isn't why. It's because he didn't have a balanced diet, he didn't even try. He went into that thinking he was going to prove it wrong and ate poorly, either on purpose or out of lack of nutritional knowledge.

Again, I will stress this ever important point! There is not one single thing that the human body needs to be healthy in that is found in meat, that is not also found in a vegetarian source (meaning: MILK, grains, legumes, fruits, vegetables, and nuts.) The human body is vegetarian. But it can take a little stress from eating some meat if absolutely nessecary. To be at optimal health, though, a vegetarian diet is needed. One may be 'healthy' and eating meat, but that only means that with a well balanced vegetarian diet they would only be more healthy.

Although you called bullshit on what I said, you linked an article which said rice and beans make a complete protien. I already knew this, but rice and beans are staple in the vegetarian diet just to let you know. The formation of a well balanced vegetarian diet is to the point where you do not even need to think of worrying over your health or if you're eating enough of this or that, if you know what you're doing. We produce enough bacteria in our mouths to get a sufficient amount of B12. To utilize that just drink a glass of water in the morning before you brush. We also get B12 through milk. Vegans who lack B12 must be using too much mouth wash and not enough water. It is painfully ridiculously simple how easily vegetarians can get every single needed nutrient. I don't even need to watch what I eat. I just eat a good, healthy, balanced vegetarian meal and I have no worries for health, or 'if I got enough protien. Actually what we should -all- be worrying about, vegetarian and non-vegetarian alike, is if we are getting too much protien! We all get more than twice what we need and the unused protien is treated like a toxin by the body and causes kidney strain and takes calcium from the bones and causes ostioporosis, among other things.

There is no way that being vegetarian would not benefit every single human on this planet, if they ate a balanced diet which includes milk, grains, vegetables, fruits, and nuts. And guess what... since I've stopped eating meat I don't have to eat as much! Yep, I had to eat more when I ate meat to get the needed nutrition. I think some of the toxins in meat probably kill some of the nutrition you take in and that may be why, but that's only my theory. I just wanted to let you know that because you seemed to imply that a vegetarian would have to eat more. That is not true.

All in all, vegetarians are healthier and live longer, but when it comes down to it, it's the choice of the individual. You may choose to forego a little health for a little taste, but again, that is all your choice and that is all fine and good! Remember, it is your choice. So don't get upset at me over mine.

Oh noooooooo!!!!!
Seriously stuff, you are obviously an intelligent guy with good debating skills, so I gotta give you props for that. I'm just tired of this argument since we aren't going anywhere with it.

Your test levels may be higher. But it won't be because you have stopped eating meat. That is not possible according to the most advanced nutritional knowledge we have today, no matter what the source. Not just puBathmateed; you can look this up practically anywhere. You can't acheive your max potential test levels without some cholesterol and saturated fats in your diet. As I've said before, though, the amount needed isn't much. You CANNOT get that tiny amount if you stop eating meat completely, though. You can, of course, raise your test in other ways to compensate for that loss. Eat zinc supplements, tribulus terrestris, look at pictures of naked chicks (or guys- whichever tickles your fancy :D) at frequent intervals- they all work. You can have high test levels without eating meat, but not BECAUSE you aren't eating it. IF you have high test (and that's a big IF- your libido could be kicking for several reasons), then it is for some other reason.
Also check out my response in the 'How much dairy?' thread... it is like you took the words right outta my mouth with your 'living longer' and 'not having to eat as much' comments...

Another thing about excessive protein consumption: a healthy person's kidneys will be perfectly able to handle even large amounts of protein, provided that they drink sufficient amounts of water during the day. Besides, if you go overkill on the protein, most of the excess will be broken down into glucose (this is referred to as glucogenesis) or just pissed out of your system. It isn't true that protein is stored as a toxin, UNLESS for some reason you have no (or very little) protein digesting enzymes in your system. Normal, healthy humans have more than enough to handle large amounts of protein.
Of course, everything in life is relative. If I were Big Farmer Joe from Texas and ate a 5 pound steak every day, I'd be raping my kidneys with an overkill that would cause at least some level of strain. However, most people who know what they're doing only consume as much as their body needs. Take me for example; I know that my body needs around 30 grams of protein per meal (I eat 5 meals a day at even intervals), which is the exact amount my muscles need to stay at their current size and my body to function normally. I add a little more on top of that (totalling to maybe 35 grams per meal) to keep them growing. It's all relative, as I said before: if you are a couch potato who doesn't strain his body or his muscles in any way, then you probably don't need as much protein as an active, physically fit person. The fact that you are here, though, makes me wonder why you would strive to have an emaciated frame (you don't see many vegan or vegetarian men with beefy bods, now do you?). I would think that you are striving to be the alpha male with a body to match his cock, just like most of us. That just isn't possible with a hypocaloric, vegetarian diet. Unless you drink ridiculous amounts of milk daily (which I assume you don't since you have such a negative view on "excessive" protein consumption.
Also, regarding the rice and beans thing: they are both relatively poor in their protein content, so you'd have to eat ridiculous amounts of them to get the amount you'd get from much smaller portions of meat. And that excess overload of carbs (from the rice: not the beans) would certainly make you fat and lethargic from an aggressive insulin spike.

I also want to stress that I'm not getting upset or starting to dislike you because your viewpoint/choice in nutrition differs from mine. Quite the contrary, it has been a good debate, even though I'm starting to tire out. :D
No hard feelings here man.

Shafty said:

I also want to stress that I'm not getting upset or starting to dislike you because your viewpoint/choice in nutrition differs from mine.

Click to expand...

This is what MoS is founded on! Speaking your minds, debating the topic and walking away better friends because of it, no matter what the outcome. It is called maturity and having an open mind.

Yeah, it's nice to debate controversial topics in a mature and level headed way. Thanks for remaining calm and brotherly... and not getting all angry over it. I've wanted to talk about this topic for a long time but I didn't want to get flamed. I'm glad we can talk more openly now in a friendly manner.