Going vegan?

I am thinking about going vegan but it is hard to make the decision. I mean we are carnivores and I think that is why Japanese people are so short, because of lack of meat. Or maybe it is a protein thing. I could take soy protein but how good is that? I am a huge animal lover. I think that back in the day that it was alright to eat meat because everyone went out and hunted and it was more natural, I mean we are the top of the food chain. But I hear stuff from certain groups about all the tortorous things that go on at slaughter houses, farms etc. But on the other hand there might be a certain level of exagerration and propoganda in those claims. I am at a total loss and don't know what to do. I believe in the circle of life. Anyone who has annything to say on the whole subject, even philosophy wise, please don't hesitate.

I do know that to be a vegan it is hard work. You have to plan your whole day around what you eat. You will need to have the proper replacements so that you get the same amount of energy that you used to.

We are made to eat meat so I am not sure why so many people feel it is wrong. I know the animals get killed and such in the slaughter houses so that we can eat but its nothing out of the ordinary really. We all know they exist and we could protest but in the end we need hormones from certain meat.

If we sat around all day eating rice and soy products we would have to drink a lot of milk to balance out the hormone level in order to grow. Or we would be short and skinny.

Sometimes I wonder how much hormones American food has in it because I swear your fast food hamburgers taste different than ours. An your girls will be like 13 and look 21. On average your teen males are bigger as well.

I am a meat luver and always will be. If there are any vegans here share your experience as I would like to know more from a personal level.

Ironnically while field dressing a deer, I slashed my left index finger today and I really cannot type much for several days till I get unstitched. This is an interseting topic I'd like to talk more about, but I really can't get to deep right now. Short version is I don't recommend it. There are some folks in the dietary community that are starting to question whether high amounts of soy is good for a person and you'll be eating shitloads of it as a vegan.

Okay, first thing is first, we are not made to eat meat. Nope! We aren't. The human body is vegetarian, but we abuse it by putting corpses into it. We eat the dead. It is no different from killing your brother and eating his flesh. This is the cold, hard, blunt truth. I decided to just come out and say it instead of beating around the bush about it.

Our body is made to exist primarily on grains, legumes (beans), and dairy. Soy is not neccesary. Vegetables, fruits, and nuts are also important compliments to the staple foods of milk, grains, and beans. The human body can survive well off dairy alone.

There is Nothing in meat that we need to have that we can not get from other sources.

The plain truth about it is that we enjoy murdering. We love the taste of blood. It is a drug. We crave blood, violence, the death of others... subconsciously, and this is why we eat meat. It is not possible to be peaceful if you are mercilessly killing others and eating their cadavers.

I didn't want to get into this at all here because I know that people are generally of short temper when you break it down to the elementary subconscious reasonings of corpse consumption. I am sure I shall be flamed for this reason, I expect it actually and of course it is natural for someone to want to, because they do not fully understand. I don't want to come off as harsh, which I probably do, but I just wanted to strongly dispell some myths and help you out. There is plenty more to say on it but above all I do not wish to get into an arguement. If this becomes anything other than peaceful discussion I'll simply stop posting because I do not wish to cause any hard feelings or troubles. I do not make personal attacks and I hope that I do not receive any.

Stuff, there's one thing you're wrong about. There are several irreplacable amino acids that can only be aquired by eating animal products (meat in particular). Milk protein can certainly be a fair replacement for satisfying a person's protein needs, but it isn't up to par with meat in it's amino acid profile. Besides, humans have evolved to be the perfect omnivore; we can and should readily consume foods from all sources available.
Soy shouldn't be consumed by men at all IMO, since it is a naturally occurring estrogen like compound. Soy and other vegetable based proteins have a low biologic value, i.e. most of what you consume will be rejected by your body.

I don't like the way they treat animals in slaughterhouses any more than the next person, but I do believe eating meat in modertion is essential for a man's well being.

Jason, if you want to have a clear conscience and still stay healthy, I suggest you at least keep the dairy and perhaps eggs as well in your diet. Don't go completely vegan- that is something a human body isn't built to endure.

Stuff is absolutely correct. Our bodies are NOT designed to eat meat. If we were, you wouldn't need butchers or steak knives, nor would we need to cook the meat. When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger have a barbeque?

It is physically impossible for the human mouth to chew through the skin of, say, a cow. A true carnivore, a lion, has a much different oral cavity/jaw structure than a human being. Our mouths are not designed to tear flesh from an animal. Even the digestive system is different. Yes, we can make tools which allow us to prepare meats to be consumed, but it's not what you would call 'natural.'

A human being's perfect food is fruit. Think of it this way: If you were placed buck naked, no tools to speak of, in a cow pasture full of cows or in an apple orchard, you would starve to death in the cow pasture, whereas, you would survive quite nicely in the apple orchard.

There are 22 amino acids that comprise protien. Of those 22, 8 cannot be synthesized by the human body and are thus called essential amino acids. Of those 8, all are abundantly available in non-corpse products. The whole protien arguement is the biggest myth out there. Dairy products, grains, beans, and nuts are all concentrated sources of protein. Cheese, peanuts, and lentils, for instance, contain more protein per ounce than hamburger, pork, or porterhouse steak.

Qouted:
"A study by Dr. Fred Stare of Harvard and Dr. Mervyn Hoarding of Loma Linda University made extensive comparisons between the protein intake of vegetarians and flesh-eaters. They concluded that "each group exceeded twice its requirement for every essential amino acid and surpassed this amount by large margins for most of them."

For many Americans, protein makes up more than twenty percent of their diet, nearly twice the quantity recommended by the World Health Organizations. Although inadequate amounts of protein will cause loss of strength, excess protein cannot be utilized by the body; rather, it is converted into nitrogenous wastes that burden the kidneys. The primary energy source for the body is Carbohydrates. Only as a last resort is the body's protein utilized for energy production. Too much protein intake actually reduces the body's energy capacity. In a series of comparative endurance tests conducted by Dr. Irving Fisher of Yale, vegetarians performed twice as well as meat-eaters. By reducing the non-vegetarians' protein consumption by twenty percent, Dr. Fisher found their efficiency increased by thirty-three percent. Numerous other studies have shown that a proper vegetarian diet provides more nutritional energy than meat. Furthermore, a study by Dr. J. Iotekyo and V. Kipani at Brussels University showed that vegetarians were able to perform physical tests two to three times longer than meat-eaters Before exhaustion and were fully recovered from fatigue in one fifth the time needed by the meat-eaters."

some of you guys seem to have some pretty dodgy arguments, but as Stuff said this should be a peacful debate, so i'll put in my bit, and im not here to insult anyone.

we do not eat meat because subconsciously we like blood, violence and murder, thats just a wild claim and i'm sure there's practically no evidence to back it up.

and to say that we not designed for meat because we basically don't have pointy teeth and claws is also a wild claim that is very hard to back up. anyways we have evolved the greatest natural weapon, an opposing thumb.

we need to kill to eat and live, whether we are killing animals or plants.

jGman said:

Stuff is absolutely correct. Our bodies are NOT designed to eat meat. If we were, you wouldn't need butchers or steak knives, nor would we need to cook the meat. When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger have a barbeque?

It is physically impossible for the human mouth to chew through the skin of, say, a cow. A true carnivore, a lion, has a much different oral cavity/jaw structure than a human being. Our mouths are not designed to tear flesh from an animal. Even the digestive system is different. Yes, we can make tools which allow us to prepare meats to be consumed, but it's not what you would call 'natural.'

A human being's perfect food is fruit. Think of it this way: If you were placed buck naked, no tools to speak of, in a cow pasture full of cows or in an apple orchard, you would starve to death in the cow pasture, whereas, you would survive quite nicely in the apple orchard.

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That isn't a good argument. Think about it: we are the next step up the ladder in evolution from chimps, which are very much meat eating creatures, albeit often thought to be strictly vegetarian. The only reason why humans can't chew through raw meat is that we have evolved beyond the need for powerful jaws and canines designed for killing. Our dental structure is still reminiscent of a carnivore/omnivore's teeth set. Just because we can't chew through raw meat, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't be eating it. We can't process many other non animal foods, either, so that argument is invalid. Besides, humans ate uncooked meat before the invention of fire. Maybe not as often as today, but it was still consumed occasionally. Raw meat can be eaten if it's pure, and our bodies won't reject it.

And stuff, protein is a poor source of energy, that is very true (also the reason why it is less inclined to fatten you up). But, unlike carbohydrates, it is essential for the various biological processes of the body. Carbs are just used as fuel, and the human body can survive well without them. Fats and protein are essential to life, though. But I'm sure you already knew all this, and I don't mean to sound like a smart ass.

It is also a fact that ever since man invented fire and thus began eating more and more meat, there was a huge jump in human evolution. Population growth exploded everywhere and humanity really began to 'thrive' from that point on.

Anyway, the healthiest diet would be one that closely resembles that of our caveman ancestors'. I.e. plenty of high fiber, veggies, nuts, fruits, and MEAT. If you want to be truly puritan about it, eat fish and insects.

Evidence to back it up is very simple. We in no way need meat, whatsoever, for any sort of nutritional value. Therefore, we only eat it for it's taste. What is it's taste? Blood. Mmm, blood. Having an acquired taste for blood means having a taste for violence and murder.

Here's a few little important facts that show a lot:


Meat eater - Has claws
Herbivore - No claws
Man - No claws

Meat eater - No skin pores, perspires through tounge
Herbivore - Perspires through skin pores
Man - Perspires through skin pores

Meat eater - Sharp front teeth for tearing, no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivore - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars
Man - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars

Meat eater - Intestinal tract 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out quickly
Herbivore - Intestinal tract 10-12 times body length
Man - Intestinal tract 12 times body length

Meat eater - Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivore - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters
Man - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters

It should also be noted that meat eaters cannot chew. Their jaw only moves up and down, simply to tear flesh, and they eat it whole, unchewed. Our mouths are designed to chew sideways to grind down crisp vegetables and hearty grains and such. Just try to take one huge bite out of a living hog and swallow it without chewing. A meat eater could do it.

Shafty, a lot of what you said is just more myths. That's what I'm here for, to dispell myths. :cool:

To say we evolved out of having the correct physical structures for eating meat does not make sense. A more logical way of looking at it would be that we evolved out of such things because we weren't meant to eat it, but actually we never had such things to evolve into or out of. What 'science' today things we evolved from, is simply a theory, nothing more.

Actually carbohydrates are very much so essential. Like protien, they are used in various functions of the cell such as the transfer of nutrients in and out of it. Aside from that carbohydrates are our main source of energy. If something is our main source of energy, how is that non-essential? I suppose if you didn't need energy to survive, maybe. Animal fats and protiens are to no extent essential to life, the fats from them are actually dangerous. Essential fatty acids are found elsewhere, such as in grains, dairy, and vegetables, and protien is so plentiful in grains, beans, nuts, and dairy.

I find the whole "we're at the top of the food chain" arguement to be humorous. It would be lowering our position to put ourselves on the food chain. That chain is for animals, not civilized humans. To lower yourself to the position of animal to say you're the top animal is up to you, though.

Stuff_ said:

Evidence to back it up is very simple. We in no way need meat, whatsoever, for any sort of nutritional value. Therefore, we only eat it for it's taste. What is it's taste? Blood. Mmm, blood. Having an acquired taste for blood means having a taste for violence and murder.

Here's a few little important facts that show a lot:

Physiological Comparisons​

Meat eater - Has claws
Herbivore - No claws
Man - No claws

Meat eater - No skin pores, perspires through tounge
Herbivore - Perspires through skin pores
Man - Perspires through skin pores

Meat eater - Sharp front teeth for tearing, no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivore - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars
Man - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars

Meat eater - Intestinal tract 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out quickly
Herbivore - Intestinal tract 10-12 times body length
Man - Intestinal tract 12 times body length

Meat eater - Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivore - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters
Man - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters

It should also be noted that meat eaters cannot chew. Their jaw only moves up and down, simply to tear flesh, and they eat it whole, unchewed. Our mouths are designed to chew sideways to grind down crisp vegetables and hearty grains and such. Just try to take one huge bite out of a living hog and swallow it without chewing. A meat eater could do it.

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okay first your logic for why we eat meat is completely crazy, no offence. but really, eat meat for taste-taste is blood-blood is violence-we eat meat because we like violence. im not disagreeing because of my opinion, im disagreeing because its completely non logical. liking the taste of meat does in no way mean we like violence.

now your next bit, "meat eaters have claws", what about a shark, same goes for the perspiring part.
"meat eaters have sharp teeth", what about a lizard, a frog, a fish, a bird, they all have evolved specific physical feature to help them kill, just like we have.
i can't comment on the intestinal tract or stomach acid bit coz i don't know enough about it.

I posted that list mainly for the intestinal tract and stomach acid facts. Those are the most important and truth-awakening facts. Our bodys simply aren't made to process meat but we abuse it with the corpses because we like the taste of death. As for the other things, those are basic generalizations that apply to most land-dwelling creatures, not air or water dwelling.

Stuff_ said:

we like the taste of death.

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this is your main argument, prove it, or at least provide some kind of evidence.

eating meat does not mean we like the taste of death, plants are living to, does eating them mean we like the taste of death if we eat them, do all animals that eat living things like the taste of death?

I think it is a very simple concept to get. Killing is a violent act, we have to kill the animal to eat it. Eating meat is killing, essentially. Enjoying meat is enjoying killing. Everything is more connected that it seems. A dead animal is a corpse. A dead human is a corpse. A dead plant is not a corpse. If you enjoy eating meat, that means you enjoy eating corpses. Corpses that had to be murdered. This is not different from killing a human and eating it. How is that not violent? How is it peaceful to murder? Meat is murder. This is a very simple concept. But most people would rather look the other way simply so that they can enjoy the taste of meat (which was a living being, Just like you and I are, that was killed, thus the taste of death).

Edit: This is all on the human, moral, and spiritual platforms. Unless viewed from there it makes no sense at all, and animals seem like lifeless "matter". There is no question of the word "spiritual" without the word "vegetarian", the same thing goes for the word "moral". It is immoral to kill, therefore it is immoral to eat meat because that involves killing. Our bodies and animals bodys are the same in the sense that they are both comprised of matter, so if we wish to eat matter in the form of meat, might as well eat our brothers. The animals are our brothers as well, so we already are.

And yes, animals that eat meat like the taste of death. That is why they took birth as a meat-eating animal, because that is how they wished to enjoy, by eating the corpses of other animals.

Stuff, you're forgetting the middle ground, though. Omnivores. As a matter of fact, we have a dental structure that has traits of both plant eaters' and carnivores'. We have flat molars at the back of our mouths designed for chewing, and short but visible canines at the front of our mouths (I'm no dentist, so I don't know all the definitions for different human teeth ). Think pigs and bears for example. Both of these have teeth that are perfectly designed for processing both plant and animal matter. Well, in pigs it is less obvious, but the more meat they have access to, the bigger they grow.
Again, I must stress that certain amino acids can only be aquired through the consumption of meat. Vegetable based proteins are a very poor substitute because of their poor biological value, but I suppose you could do fine with dairy products alone. I'm not saying a person can't live a full, healthy life without meat, but I question the alleged health benefits of such a lifestyle. There are no studies which would indicate that vegans are healthier in any way. Quite the contrary; they have weaker immune systems and often suffer from various ailments.

As far as the carb argument is concerned, I too believe we need a balanced diet of carbs, protein and fats. However, people CAN survive without carbs, even if the body goes into a state of ketogenesis. If you strip away all protein and fats, you won't live long. That was the point I was trying to make.
Of course we need a certain amount of carbs just to make it through the day, but in the end, they are just fuel. They don't take any part in any of the vital repairing and rebuilding functions of the body.
As far as animal fats are concerned; yes, they are unhealthy in large quantities, but we DO NEED them in small amounts. Cutting off all saturated fats by eliminating all animal based foods is a bad call. I don't exactly eat bacon fat right off the pan, either, but even though I only eat meat on occasion (I mostly eat dairy products), I still get the minimum amount of necessary 'bad fats'. Saturated fats and cholesterol actually have a direct impact on your testosterone production. That is why many vegan men suffer from low test levels.
I don't see how any of what I posted was "more myths". It is all backed by scientific fact. I can also see that we are drifting into the realm of theology vs science here.
I'd rather not go there at all.

Thanks for staying respectful and mature in your posts, though.

Stuff_, your repeating yourself, and your arguement just doesn't add up.

your argument contradicts itself, killing is violent you say, so eating somthing we've killed is enjoying violence. but if we kill a plant to eat that's apparantly different??? doesn't add up.

killing doesn't have to be an act of violence, if it was done out of necessity.

simple fact, we need to kill to eat to live. therefore killing is a necessity not an enjoyment.

Stuff_ said:

And yes, animals that eat meat like the taste of death. That is why they took birth as a meat-eating animal, because that is how they wished to enjoy, by eating the corpses of other animals.

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ignorant and fantastical, im outa this argument.

(no offence)

Respect is neccesary for any real conversation or relations, I just love being nice to people and can't stand to be mean, and it's nice to have friendly conversation.

Killing animals is in no way a neccesity, though. Therefore it is out of enjoyment. We don't need to kill animals because we have more than ample grains, milk, beans, vegetables, nuts, etc. And Shafty, to repeat myself there is not a single thing in meat that you need that you cannot get from grains, milk, beans, vegetables, or nuts. If you look at the teeth of a carnivore they don't resemble ours to any extent, look at the teeth of a cat... they are long, pointy, sharp, and most definably round. We have two canines, which aren't all that sharp, are flat, and short. Made for cutting crisp vegetables.

We aren't made like any of the omnivores, either. But out of personal choice in taste, we eat meat. There have been many studies that show that by all means we are less healthy if we eat meat to any degree. If someone is healthy and they eat meat, then by taking all meat out of their diet and replacing it with a balanced vegetarian diet can only make them more healthy. We don't need any animal-based fats or anything from animals, except for milk. I'm not talking about vegan here either, by vegetarian I mean vegan except for dairy. Milk is important. But in every respect vegetarian is more healthy than eating corpses. There is nothing lacking. Actually my test levels are so high that I'm disturbed by it... I'm wayyy more horny than I'd like to be. :s

And yes, I've been repeating myself, and saying it in different ways, to show that it really is that simple. Killing plants is also killing, but if you must kill to survive, why kill to the highest degree? At least try to minimize it to vegetarian foods. As for carbs, our cells are coated with carbohydrate strands that are needed for proper cell function, they're more important than most realize.

Shithead said:

ignorant and fantastical, im outa this argument.

(no offence)

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I wasn't saying that there was anything wrong with animals killing and eating other animals, just that that is the mode in which they enjoy or else they wouldn't have adapted the facilities to enjoy in that way. That's how nature works, if a creature wishes to enjoy in a certain way it will give that creature the facility to enjoy in that way, nothing positive or negative about it really...

I'm sorry if I offended you and came off as ignorant though, although many of these concepts must be studied at great lengths to understand so at first glance it very well may seem to be so. I am sorry if I've upset anyone as I do not wish to do so, I only wish to help out my fellow brothers.