Anabolics

Has anyone been on cycles of dianabol combined with oestrogen suppresors?

What where your side effects and did you experience any muscle loss when you finished your cycle?

I'm curious about starting to use steroids but am trying to do as much research as possible

Got a thread HERE with several books on steroids that will help you out a treat. I've used low dosages of d-bol in the past for upto 12 weeks on and with no sides at all. I gained strength and muscle plus kept it all during PCT albeit you aint going to pack on 30lbs but it helped out with 8lbs.

D-bol is the more well known steroid as its been around for ages now. Studies are everywhere on it, as it was used in the UK back in the 60's for stunted growth in kids but they stopped it as the females on it developed male tendencies. I will dig that study out, its in pdf format. It shows that low dosages are all that is needed for it to work.

Dosages like 40-100mg like those sili twats use in the gym is insane and is no good. It will create fluid build up (sodium) and is no use no orniment. Just bloated shit and you look a clown. 2-10mg is really all that is needed in a d-bol cycle from my own usage and reading PROPenis EnlargementR medical studies where its used for growth cycles. I gained 8 lbs mostly muscle from a cycle of 5mg eachday for 12 weeks.

PCT I have used many things but Nolva and Clomid always did the trick. Agaian they are heavily studied.

You will lose more if you use more drug during the cycle because its mostly false weight. When you come off the body needs to be boosted back into natural cycle again and is heavily in a cortisol state, when it needs to be an anabolic state.

My advice is try doing it natural but if you want some help than dbol, winny and anavar are good lighter steroids to use and all oral. I have only used dbol out of those however. Stay well away from stuff like Trenbolone, sure guys see results but its not even for human use! Its for horses yet they wont be told. On the inside the guy that wins the contest is often the most unhealthiest.

Let me also state I'm now expert on this and just now from my own experiences and reading about it. I in no way endorse heavy steroid usage but the lighter occasional booster I see as okay, so long as you know what your doing. I'm aware guys are around the forums who have done heavy cycles of alsorts of stuff and will laugh at me and my dbol that is fine but remember no everyone is dependent on steroids.

Know your drugs.

Here's some basic information on the drug itself.

~~~~~~~~

Dianabol

(Methandrostenolone)
[17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one]
Molecular Weight: 300.44
Formula: C20H28O2
Melting Point: N/A
Manufacturer: Ciba (originally)
Release Date: 1956
Effective dose: 25-50mgs (as low as 10 and as high as 100 have been reported)
Active Life: 6-8hours
Detection Time: up to 6 weeks
Anabolic/Androgenic Ratio (Range): 90-210:40-60
Dianabol (Methandrostenolone)

This was more or less the second Anabolic Steroid ever produced. The first, as we all know was Testosterone, which was produced in the early 1900’s and experimented with by Nazi’s in WW2, in an attempt to produce a better soldier. Russian athletes in the 1953 World Championships as well as the Olympic games then used testosterone with great success. After that, John Zeigler, who was a doctor working with the US Weightlifting Team, began a cooperative project with Ciba to develop an equalizer for US atheletes. Flash forward to 1956 and enter Dianabol ; the original trade name for Ciba’s Methandrostenolone... but called “Dbol” by athletes. The original package insert said that 10mgs/day was enough to provide full androgen replacement for a man…and Dr.Zeigler recommended that athletes take 5-10mgs/day. Incidentally, this is also the dose that Bodybuilders were reputed to take from then until roughly the 1970’s. Yeah…this was allegedly Arnold’s dose, Zane’s dose, etc…simply stacked with some testosterone. (For any trivia buffs out there, Dan Duchaine’s mail order steroid business operated under the name “The John Zeigler Fan Club”).

Enough with the history lesson….lets get into what this stuff is, and what it does. Well, first off, it’s usually found in pill form, though it can be found as an injectable also (Under the Trade name: Reforvit-B, which is 25mgs of methandrostenolone mixed with B-vitamins). It is a 17aa steroid, which means it has been altered at the 17th Carbon position, to survive its’ first pass through your liver, and make it into your blood stream. It’ll raise your blood pressure (4)and is also hepatoxic (Liver-Toxic)…so be careful with it. Although I have known people to take up to 100mgs/day of this stuff and not suffer any ill-effects, and one study looked at that exact dose, and the people involved didn’t suffer any intolerable side effects ( 7). Lets examine this particular study a bit further, though:

In this study, done in the early 80’s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it’s normal value, plasma GH went up about a third, LH dropped to about 80% of it’s original value, and FSH went down about a third also (these are all approximate numbers, for the sake of brevity, but you get the idea). Bodyfat did not go up significantly and Fat Free Mass went up anywhere between 2-7kgs (3.3kgs average gain). The researchers concluded that Dbol increases Fat Free Mass as well as increasing strength and performance. I can only agree, having found this to be the case for me when I did my first cycle (which was 6 weeks of dbol alone at 25mgs/day)…I gained roughly 25lbs and kept nearly ½ of it. Since then, Dbol has always had a special place in my heart…

As with many other 17aa steroids, Dbol is also a very weak binder to the Androgen Receptor, so most of it’s effects are thought to be non-receptor mediated, and are attributable to other mechanisms (i.e. protein synthesis as inticated by the production of muscle tissue with very high levels of nitrogen, etc… which was indicated in the 100mg/day study). This also means it only has a modest aromatase activity (2).

How strong is Dbol? Well...on a mg for mg basis, most people agree that it's stronger than A50...but the reason most people don't get the same gains off of Dbol is that almost nobody takes equivalent doses (I mean...I've heard of people taking 150mgs of A50, but not Dbol, even though the dbol would probably provide more solid gains and be less toxic, I suspect).

So how do we incorporate this stuff into our AAS regimen? Clearly, the inclusion of Dbol at any point in a cycle would contribute to gains , however, I’d speculate that Dbol is most regularly used for 2 reasons:

1. At the start of a cycle to “Kick Start” gains
2. As a “Bridge” between cycles, to maintain gains

Lets examine these two uses.

In order to kick start a cycle, usually what you do is incorporate a fast acting oral like dianabol (or anadrol) and combine it with long acting injectables (such as Deca or Eq with some Testosterone). The reasoning here is that the oral (Dbol in this case) will give almost immediate results, while the injectable takes time to produce results. The end result is that you start seeing results within the first week of your cycle and continue up until the end with the injectables. This entails taking anywhere from 25-50mgs of dbol (although as little as 20mgs or as much as 100mgs have been reported) for 3-6 weeks at the start of a cycle (average time for a “Kick Start” is 4 weeks, though), and then ceasing their use as the injectables start to produce results.

In order to successfully bridge between cycles (and this means using a low dose of AAS…in this case dbol), you need to recover your natural hormonal levels to pre-cycle levels or to within acceptable parameters, and then you start your next cycle. The idea here is that you won’t lose any gains, but rather a low dose of an AAS will help you maintain them. Typically, you’d use around 10mgs/day of dbol and combine it with an aggressive Post-Cycle Therapy (PCT) course of Nolvadex (and/or Clomid) and HCG. This would give you full androgen replacement from the Dbol and a shot at recovering your natural hormonal levels via the other stuff you are taking. Remember, the 100mg/day dose of dbol in the study we looked at earlier did not suppress Test, LH, or FSH to a degree that would make recovery impossible…and certainly not with 1/10th that dose in conjunction with an aggressive PCT.

All in all, this is a very good drug, and a potent tool for quick gains or retaining gains...when used properly and safely.

References:
1 Serakovskii S, Mats'koviak I., Effect of methanedienone (methandrostenolone) on energy processes and carbohydrate metabolism in rat liver cells,
Farmakol Toksikol 1981 Mar-Apr;44(2):213-7
2.Brain Res. 1998 May 11;792(2):271-6.
3.Chemfinder. Copyright 2004 CambridgeSoft Corporation. Cambridge, MA, USA.
4. Br Med J. 1975 May 31;2(5969):471-3.
5. www.steroid.com
6. http://www.*****************.com
7. Clin Sci (Lond). 1981 Apr;60(4):457-61
8. Steroids. 1984 Dec;44(6):485-95.
9. Vrach Delo. 1983 Nov;(11):34-6. Russian
10. Acta Med Acad Sci Hung. 1975;32(1):27-34
11. 4 Nesterin MF, Budik VM, Narodetskaia RV, Solov'eva GI, Stoianova VG., Effect of methandrostenolone on liver morphology and enzymatic activity, Farmakol Toksikol 1980 Sep-Oct;43(5):597-601
http://forums.steroid.com/showthrea...Steroid-Profile-Dianabol-(Methandrostenolone)


~~~~~~~~

My personal opinion is merely, no. Do not do a D-Bol only cycle. If you want to run an oral only cycle, try Winstrol at 60-100mg/day and see where that leads you. Winny will dry you out though, and it's mainly used for cutting cycles, so drink lots of water.

I would say the best bet if you are new to the AAS world is to compile a beginner cycle of Testosterone Enanthate or Cypionate for 12-14 weeks.

Before I give any more advice, what are your stats? Age, Weight, BF%, Height, Training experience?

Along with any AAS, you will need various ancillaries to go along with them, to help combat estrogen sides, and other nasty issues like Gynocomastia (bitch tits). Please post your stats and I can help further.

OK, thanks for the feedback.

I can give you some stats, not sure about my BF%
23 years old (24 in Nov)
87kg (192 lbs)
BF% I don't know - smooth, certainly no striations, 6 pack or anything. Endomorphic body type
Height 5ft 10
About 4 years of proper HIT bodybuilding, 3 days per week at the moment, seperate body parts, Monday, Wed, Fri

Mdoc;435182 said:

OK, thanks for the feedback.

I can give you some stats, not sure about my BF%
23 years old (24 in Nov)
87kg (192 lbs)
BF% I don't know - smooth, certainly no striations, 6 pack or anything. Endomorphic body type
Height 5ft 10
About 4 years of proper HIT bodybuilding, 3 days per week at the moment, seperate body parts, Monday, Wed, Fri

Click to expand...

Could you please outline your diet? I think that with a proper diet you can achieve your goals as quick as with AAS usage, you are relatively young and should have good hormone levels for such.

If I can help you establish a solid diet, then I would definitely be willing to suggest a proper cycle for you on top of that. Truth is, BBing is 85% diet, 10% training/rest, and 5% drugs. So without the proper intake of food, you wouldn't gain anything but water weight, no matter what the dosage or compound was.

Please refer to this thread regarding diet, and post your Basal Metabolic Rate and TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) and outline what you eat for a day or two. Just write down everything you eat (amount, type of food, and when).

Diet is based on caloric intake and this needs to be in tune with your specific body weight and muscle mass. There are three essential elements to a proper diet. TYPenis Enlargement, AMOUNT, and TIMING. You are what you eat, and every food is broken down into macro or micro nutrients.

TYPenis Enlargement

The different kinds of foods you'll be eating to attain your goals, and how the different macronutrients are combined to structure your meals. Macronutrients are split into three categories:

Protein (PRO)
Carbohydate (CHO)
Lipid (FAT)


Micronutrients (vitamins, minerals, and trace nutrients) are essential to and health well being. Plain and simple; GREENS are important. Your body just plain needs them which is hard for the average American to comprehend. In order to build muscle and keep your immune system functioning properly you'll need to keep your body nourished! In turn, this will relate to a healthier and easier journey to achieving your goals.

Healthy fats in your diet help to gain and maintain lean muscle tissue, improve your cholesterol and triglyceride levels, and to cleanse and stabilize your blood. What do I mean by healthy fats? I mean EFA's (essential fatty acids), which are only obtained exogenously through the foods we eat. Examples are, EVOO (extra virgin olive oil), any kind of nut or seed oils generally, fish oil, and foods rich with omegas like avocados. The three important EFA's are Omega-3, Omega-6, and Omega-9. Generally most EFA's are composed of monounsaturated or polyunsaturated fats, which differ from fats you consume from a steak or chicken, or dairy; saturated fats (unhealthy fats).

Proteins are what actually build muscle. The protein macronutrient is broken down into amino acids which are the building blocks for your lean tissue fibers. You will need a moderate to high amount of protein in your diet to accomplish your muscle-building goals. The general rule of thumb most bodybuilders use is 1.5g-2g of protein per lb of lean body mass.

The easiest digesting proteins are Whey isolate, eggs, fish, chicken, and beef in a progressive order. I would recommend finding the leanest types of proteins to start with if you are looking to lose some body fat. These include chicken breast, generally any fish, and eggs. That's three sources, if you add in your whey protein shake and possibly some lean turkey breast you should be set! Variety is key. Keep your body guessing, don't just eat chicken, chicken, chicken throughout your days as your only protein source, as your body will eventually develop a food allergy!

Carbohydates fall into two catagories, complex and simple. Simple carbs are foods like white bread, white pasta, fruit, soda, and anything with empty calories or a high-starch and sugar content. Your goal is to build muscle and lose body fat! To do this you need to focus on complex carbs like quinoa, brown rice, black beans, lentils, buckwheat, whole grains, sweet potatoes, oatmeal. These complex carbs have a much larger satiety value. They take longer to digest, keeping you fuller, longer. Also, most of the healthy complex carbs have a lower insulin index, and glycemic index/glycemic load.

If you eat something rich in sugar, it spikes your insulin level (which is a transport hormone) in order to cleanse your blood of the sugar. When your insulin spikes, your glucagon levels drop, and it's like a sea-saw effect. Glucagon is the hormone responsible for allowing your body to burn stored body fat, and if you are constantly spiking your insulin you are restricting your body from using it's stored body fat as an energy source, thus stalling fat loss. Also, insulin sensitivity is an issue if you are constantly eating sugary and starchy foods all day, which can lead to diabetes or hyper/hypoglycemia. Carbs are essential to building muscle as they give you strength and energy to go about your workouts, and keeping your blood sugar levels stable is key.

TIMING

Timing of meals is important. You would benefit most from eating frequent small meals throughout the day so as to always give your body a steady release of macro and micronutrients. For example, chicken may take upwards of 6-7 hours to digest, meaning if you eat every 2.5-3 hours (6-8 small meals) throughout the day, you will have a more constant stream of amino acids being released to fuel muscle growth!


AMOUNT

Again, macros. You need to establish your TDEE - total daily energy expenditure - to determine just how much fuel you will be burning each day! Based on this number you can tune your entire diet and divide the food into proper portions throughout the day. To find your TDEE I can provide a simple formula for you to enter your stats into and get an estimate.

To find your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) you should use the following formula, then re-post your stats as requested above. First you need to find your BathmateR (basal metabolic rate), then multiply your BathmateR by your activity level to get your TDEE. It sounds confusing, but it's really easy. You just input your stats as follows.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Harris Benedict Formula for Men
BathmateR = 66 + (13.7 X weight in kilos) + (5 X height in cm) - (6.8 X age in years)

Notes:
1 inch = 2.54 cm.
1 kilogram = 2.2 lbs.

Example of BathmateR
You are 25 years old
You are 6 feet tall
Your weight is 220 pounds
Your BathmateR is 66 + (1370) + (914) - (170) = 2180 calories

Harris Benedict Formula for Men - STEP 2
To determine your total daily calorie needs, now multiply your BathmateR by the appropriate activity factor, as follows:

If you are Sedentary - little or no exercise
Calorie-Calculation = BathmateR X 1.2
- If you are Lightly Active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week)
Calorie-Calculation = BathmateR X 1.375
- If you are Moderately Active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week)
Calorie-Calculation = BathmateR X 1.55
- If you are Very Active = BathmateR X 1.725 (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/week)
Calorie-Calculation = BathmateR X 1.725
- If you are Extra Active (very hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training)
Calorie-Calculation = BathmateR X 1.9
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, what are your goals? Lose fat? Gain muscle, etc? Both?

hey sizerp i sent you a pm with some questions. would you rather i just start another topic on the subject. sorry to hijack your thread.

pcp33;435192 said:

hey sizerp i sent you a pm with some questions. would you rather i just start another topic on the subject. sorry to hijack your thread.

Click to expand...

I read it but to be honest anyone under 25 I wouldn't condone to use any AAS. I could make a diet for your son that would guarantee him 10-15lbs of muscle though!

Even with AAS you won't gain weight without the proper food intake. Muscle takes calories to build!! Guys that are younger like 18-24 have plenty of free Testosterone floating around, any AAS use at that age can permanently fuck up their Hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA). Here's a study for older gen guys.

~~~~~~~~

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jul;93(7):2737-45. Epub 2008 Feb 12.

Hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis disruptions in older men are differentially linked to age and modifiable risk factors: the European Male Aging Study.

Wu FC, Tajar A, Pye SR, Silman AJ, Finn JD, O'Neill TW, Bartfai G, Casanueva F, Forti G, Giwercman A, Huhtaniemi IT, Kula K, Punab M, Boonen S, Vanderschueren D; European Male Aging Study Group.

Department of Endocrinology, Manchester Royal Infirmary, Oxford Road, Manchester, United Kingdom. frederick.wu@manchester.ac.uk

Abstract

CONTEXT:

The cause of declining testosterone (T) in aging men and their relationships with risk factors are unclear.

OBJECTIVE:

The objective of the study was to investigate the relationships between lifestyle and health with reproductive hormones in aging men.

DESIGN:

This was a baseline cross-sectional survey on 3200 community-dwelling men aged 40-79 yr from a prospective cohort study in eight European countries.

RESULTS:

Four predictors were associated with distinct modes of altered function: 1) age: lower free T (FT; -3.12 pmol/liter.yr, P < 0.001) with raised LH, suggesting impaired testicular function; 2) obesity: lower total T (TT; -2.32 nmol/liter) and FT (-17.60 pmol/liter) for body mass index (BathmateI; > or = 25 to < 30 kg/m(2)) and lower TT (-5.09 nmol/liter) and FT (-53.72 pmol/liter) for BathmateI 30 kg/m(2) or greater (P < 0.001-0.01, referent: BathmateI < 25 kg/m(2)) with unchanged/decreased LH, indicating hypothalamus/pituitary dysfunction; 3) comorbidity: lower TT (-0.80 nmol/liter, P < 0.01) with unchanged LH in younger men but higher LH in older men; and 4) smoking: higher SHBG (5.96 nmol/liter, P < 0.001) and LH (0.77 U/liter, P < 0.01) with increased TT (1.31 nmol/liter, P < 0.001) but not FT, compatible with a resetting of T-LH-negative feedback due to elevated SHBG.

CONCLUSIONS:

Complex multiple alterations in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis function exist in aging men against a background of progressive age-related testicular impairment. These changes are differentially linked to specific risk factors. Some risk factors operate independently of but others interact with age, in contributing to the T decline. These potentially modifiable risk factors suggest possible preventative measures to maintain T during aging in men.

Eur Urol. 2008 Dec;54(6):1437-8.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jul;93(7):2477-8.

PMID: 18270261 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~~~~~~

If you shove exogenous T into a younger person who isn't finished growing yet, you run into the potential to fuse their growth plates prematurely, meaning they wouldn't grow to their full potential. Also, AAS isn't no joke! You have to be dedicated to dabble in something that can alter your hormone levels. However, is respected and understood they can be implemented in a pretty neat way. Understanding the body and the compounds are very important.

Anyway, I'd be happy to get a diet established for anyone who wants to gain muscle, and I can guarantee results, and if you guys are serious about AAS and bodybuilding I'd be happy to share knowledge if it's pertinent. However, don't expect me to start giving advice that isn't safe.

sizerp;435224 said:

I read it but to be honest anyone under 25 I wouldn't condone to use any AAS. I could make a diet for your son that would guarantee him 10-15lbs of muscle though!

Even with AAS you won't gain weight without the proper food intake. Muscle takes calories to build!! Guys that are younger like 18-24 have plenty of free Testosterone floating around, any AAS use at that age can permanently fuck up their Hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA). Here's a study for older gen guys.

~~~~~~~~

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jul;93(7):2737-45. Epub 2008 Feb 12.

Hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis disruptions in older men are differentially linked to age and modifiable risk factors: the European Male Aging Study.

Wu FC, Tajar A, Pye SR, Silman AJ, Finn JD, O'Neill TW, Bartfai G, Casanueva F, Forti G, Giwercman A, Huhtaniemi IT, Kula K, Punab M, Boonen S, Vanderschueren D; European Male Aging Study Group.

Department of Endocrinology, Manchester Royal Infirmary, Oxford Road, Manchester, United Kingdom. frederick.wu@manchester.ac.uk

Abstract

CONTEXT:

The cause of declining testosterone (T) in aging men and their relationships with risk factors are unclear.

OBJECTIVE:

The objective of the study was to investigate the relationships between lifestyle and health with reproductive hormones in aging men.

DESIGN:

This was a baseline cross-sectional survey on 3200 community-dwelling men aged 40-79 yr from a prospective cohort study in eight European countries.

RESULTS:

Four predictors were associated with distinct modes of altered function: 1) age: lower free T (FT; -3.12 pmol/liter.yr, P < 0.001) with raised LH, suggesting impaired testicular function; 2) obesity: lower total T (TT; -2.32 nmol/liter) and FT (-17.60 pmol/liter) for body mass index (BathmateI; > or = 25 to < 30 kg/m(2)) and lower TT (-5.09 nmol/liter) and FT (-53.72 pmol/liter) for BathmateI 30 kg/m(2) or greater (P < 0.001-0.01, referent: BathmateI < 25 kg/m(2)) with unchanged/decreased LH, indicating hypothalamus/pituitary dysfunction; 3) comorbidity: lower TT (-0.80 nmol/liter, P < 0.01) with unchanged LH in younger men but higher LH in older men; and 4) smoking: higher SHBG (5.96 nmol/liter, P < 0.001) and LH (0.77 U/liter, P < 0.01) with increased TT (1.31 nmol/liter, P < 0.001) but not FT, compatible with a resetting of T-LH-negative feedback due to elevated SHBG.

CONCLUSIONS:

Complex multiple alterations in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis function exist in aging men against a background of progressive age-related testicular impairment. These changes are differentially linked to specific risk factors. Some risk factors operate independently of but others interact with age, in contributing to the T decline. These potentially modifiable risk factors suggest possible preventative measures to maintain T during aging in men.

Eur Urol. 2008 Dec;54(6):1437-8.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jul;93(7):2477-8.

PMID: 18270261 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~~~~~~

If you shove exogenous T into a younger person who isn't finished growing yet, you run into the potential to fuse their growth plates prematurely, meaning they wouldn't grow to their full potential. Also, AAS isn't no joke! You have to be dedicated to dabble in something that can alter your hormone levels. However, is respected and understood they can be implemented in a pretty neat way. Understanding the body and the compounds are very important.

Anyway, I'd be happy to get a diet established for anyone who wants to gain muscle, and I can guarantee results, and if you guys are serious about AAS and bodybuilding I'd be happy to share knowledge if it's pertinent. However, don't expect me to start giving advice that isn't safe.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Most guys who use anabolics for the first time..hell even for the first several times, don't understand the basics. Diet plays a BIG roll in both positive, and negative sides. Too high on the sodium can not only cause major water weight gain (10lbs in a week for example) but also throw your blood pressure way up. If you have an undiagnosed heart condition (more common than most people think), you can kill yourself. This is extremely dangerous stuff to mess with if you don't know what you're doing.

its reallly hard to find legit roids online. if i were to use them id chose Anavar. It has very little estrogenic effects. You get very cut and gain strength without man boobs or losing your hair.

I know of a legit source. PM me.

Lol, oral only cycles are for amateurs btw. Injectable test is the best. Please tell me your "legit" source doesnt start with alin or uncle lol. Two words is all im saying "source...check" period.

No way in hell id be poking my self with needles.

stillwantmore2;435334 said:

Lol, oral only cycles are for amateurs btw. Injectable test is the best. Please tell me your "legit" source doesnt start with alin or uncle lol. Two words is all im saying "source...check" period.

Click to expand...

Here we go Amateurs to you yes because your a vet at using injectable's like tren but not everyone wants that mate. Oral is cool so long the person knows what's what, it aint amateur at all that's stupid talk dude.

At the end of the day none of us should be using this shit period but we all like short cuts and I will at least admit this. The juice is seen as that short cut but as someone already mentioned on here its fruitless if diet and exercise aint in place for it.

Also my source is legit, very legit. It has a site, well known but they have the injectable's, orals etc and are based in several locations across the world and have been verified by various pro juicers. I don't use the stuff now btw but if I did go back than it would be the oral route or test, nothing else.

pcp33;435192 said:

hey sizerp i sent you a pm with some questions. would you rather i just start another topic on the subject. sorry to hijack your thread.

Click to expand...

Hey dude, ok ask your son to write down everything he eats throughout the day, make a log sort of.

Do it for 1-2 days, one on a rest day and one on a workout day and get back to me. I can definitely help with his diet and get him to add on some lbs!

I've trained for years. Tend to eat complex carb food groups, with a source of protein every 2-3 hours i.e oats, brown bread, canned tuna, protein shake, lean meats and fish, skimmed milk etc.

My goal at the moment is to increase mass, once I've gained a few more pounds of lean mass I intend to start cutting

Mdoc;436814 said:

I've trained for years. Tend to eat complex carb food groups, with a source of protein every 2-3 hours i.e oats, brown bread, canned tuna, protein shake, lean meats and fish, skimmed milk etc.

My goal at the moment is to increase mass, once I've gained a few more pounds of lean mass I intend to start cutting

Click to expand...

You don't need AAS to "gain a few more lbs" unless you currently at your max genetic potential.

Please post your stats!

Age:
Weight:
Height:
BF%:

slutbuster24;435240 said:

its reallly hard to find legit roids online. if i were to use them id chose Anavar. It has very little estrogenic effects. You get very cut and gain strength without man boobs or losing your hair.

Click to expand...

Anavar has NO bang for the buck, u wont notice ANY result un less your already low bf% its super expensive..

Or if you suffer from Hypogandism l

sizerp;436816 said:

You don't need AAS to "gain a few more lbs" unless you currently at your max genetic potential.

Please post your stats!

Age:
Weight:
Height:
BF%:

Click to expand...