Man you guys bring out way too many big articles.

Stridge, indymedia is a whole lot better information than any corporate-globalist news organization.

I think I'm done trying to argue any points, this is getting nowhere fast. Either one of two things will happen, people will wake up and realize the threat of government, or we will be living under total surveillance. It's that simple. And based on recent changes in government, the latter looks to be the more realistic possibility. As that commentator on CNN said, "I think America has to crash and burn before the people wake up to what is going on."
 
10inchadvantage said:
Man you guys bring out way too many big articles.

Stridge, indymedia is a whole lot better information than any corporate-globalist news organization.

I think I'm done trying to argue any points, this is getting nowhere fast. Either one of two things will happen, people will wake up and realize the threat of government, or we will be living under total surveillance. It's that simple. And based on recent changes in government, the latter looks to be the more realistic possibility. As that commentator on CNN said, "I think America has to crash and burn before the people wake up to what is going on."

That's cool, but do yourself and favor and read through that link or if you like I'll give you the search criteria to get the much more readable PDF file. Just because there's a lot of information on something is no excuse to ignore it, after all it's about being informed right?

And Mark Roberts is as 'indy' as it gets. He wrote that on his free time - the guy is a tour guide and average citizen in New York. If you like to have all the facts on something you believe in, then you owe it to yourself it read that in it's entirety.

By the way, no debate goes nowhere fast. The point of a discussion like this isn't winning or losing, it's about learning more about something. As others have pointed out, debating is about the healthiest intellectual exercise there is. The unexamined life isn't worth living, as they say.

"As that commentator on CNN said, "I think America has to crash and burn before the people wake up to what is going on."

CNN, by the way, ain't no indy media.
 
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stridge -

as you well know i am open to an opinion change when wtc7 is involved... its pretty much all i like to focus on encompassing 9/11.

i know, and have read the quotations, and believe that firefighters were inside wtc7... how many & what precisely they were doing to combat the fires i don't know.

you have on many occasions cited NIST & FEMA as a backbone of an arrgument and look to them for professional verity.

if they both officially deny fire fighters were inside wtc7, you need to make a choice of who you wish to side with. the government supported and appointed NIST, FEMA et al... or the accounts of those that were involved.
you can't have it both ways.


keep pushing
 
Reber187 said:
stridge -

as you well know i am open to an opinion change when wtc7 is involved... its pretty much all i like to focus on encompassing 9/11.

i know, and have read the quotations, and believe that firefighters were inside wtc7... how many & what precisely they were doing to combat the fires i don't know.

you have on many occasions cited NIST & FEMA as a backbone of an arrgument and look to them for professional verity.

if they both officially deny fire fighters were inside wtc7, you need to make a choice of who you wish to side with. the government supported and appointed NIST, FEMA et al... or the accounts of those that were involved.
you can't have it both ways.


keep pushing

Actually, since I haven't read NIST or FEMA reports in their complete forms, I never cite them. I do, however, make an appeal to logic that such large investigations probably aren't entirely inaccurate or corrupt.

If you read the link I posted, it discusses WT7 at length, including the "pull it" quote - which I've been interested to learn is almost constantly misquoted by conspiracists - and the firefighters at WT7.

So far as NIST and FEMA, where do they say that no firefighters ever entered the buildings? I was under the impression they were at least in the close proximity of WT7 before Fire Cheif Daniel Nigro decided to remove them from the area (the call to Larry Silverstein was essentially out of courtesy, unless you think Mr. Silverstein is somehow in charge of hte New York Fire Department - a fact also often ignored by conspiracists).

Anyway, I can assure you I'm not trying to have it both ways. I thought the firemen were in teh building at one point, and they were certainly in the close vicinity of the building when it was deemed too dangerous for anybody to be near (a full four hours before it came down by the way). Obviously nobody could be in the immediate area if they suspected the building was going to collapse for safety reasons, but they were certainly in a closer range observing prior to this - I believe they were searching for missing firefighters in the area, one of the reasons it was so heartbreaking to move out of the area.

I'll be curious to hear what you think about the Mark Richards breakdown of WT7. It contains a lot of superfelous information and it's rather long, but he makes points about the conspiracy that I think are rather undeniable.

Also, any thoughts on Screw Loose Change?
 
Just a few items of interest from the paper, which is fully sourced. It's a little hard to follow from the cutting and pasting, I'm mainly just posting it to try and interest you in the real deal. Unfortuantely it's a lot easier for me to direct you to a link far more comprehensive than anything I would have the time to spell out in posts. It's a very comprehensive document.

*********************************************


Excerpt: Summary of World Trade Center Building 7 Emergency Response*



• The building had sustained damage from debris falling into the building, and they were not sure about the structural stability of the building.


• The building had large fires burning on at least six floors. Any one of these six fires would have been considered a large incident during normal FDNY operations.


• There was no water immediately available for fighting the fires.


• They didn’t have equipment, hose, standpipe kits, tools, and enough handie talkies for conducting operations inside the building.


At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. The order terminated the ongoing rescue operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.

Here’s a much-reprinted quote from FDNY Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro:


The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt. [Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002]

In another interview, Chief Nigro says,


The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely. http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y

That’s certainly straightforward. Building 7 was severely damaged and had severe, uncontrollable fires, and the FDNY withdrew its firefighters to protect their safety.

******************************************
*

James Fetzer, co-chairman of “Scholars for 9/11 Truth,” and long-time JFK assassination conspiracy theorist, interviewed on Alan Colmes’ radio show, June, 2006:


Fetzer: Larry Silverstein, in New York, actually directed the World Trade Center Number 7 be pulled, meaning brought down by controlled demolition.


Colmes: Wasn’t he the landlord?* Why would he want that to happen?


Fetzer: Well, it’s recorded.* He admitted it in an interview that he had it pulled.* Now, just to make an obvious point, Alan, it can’t have been pulled unless there were pre-positioned explosives in World Trade Center 7—


Colmes: What would be Larry Silverstein’s interest in destroying his own building?


Fetzer: He had insured it for $3.5 billion against a terrorist attack six weeks previous.


Colmes: So he’s in on this?


Fetzer:* Absolutely. Later in that interview: I can prove all of these things, it’s the only hypothesis that makes any sense and in many cases we have direct evidence, we have Silverstein’s admission that he directed that the building be pulled.* That was at 5:20 in the afternoon, it had been hit by no aircraft, it had only very modest fires, that was an extremely robustly built building—* Keep in mind that Jim Fetzer is one of the leaders of the 9/11 “Truth Movement.”*


Larry Silverstein was the owner of the 47-story WTC building 7, which collapsed on 9/11, and he owns the new 52-story building 7, which opened in May, 2006 on the site of the old building.* He was the leaseholder on most of the other WTC buildings, including the Twin Towers (the property is owned by The Port of New York and New Jersey Authority). He won the right to the 99-year lease only six weeks before September 11, 2001, after a long public bidding process. *

During an interview in 2002 for the PBS documentary America Rebuilds: A Year at Ground Zero, Mr. Silverstein said this about the fate of building 7 on 9/11:


"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." –Larry Silverstein

The conspiracy theorists (hereafter referred to as “CTs”) believe that Silverstein was ordering the FDNY to demolish, or to allow to be demolished, building 7. *

In my experience, the CTs are in such a hurry to get to the “pull it” phrase that they neglect to read the whole statement. While I will provide much evidence in this paper that’s intended to convince the most hardcore CT, all that’s really necessary is to apply a bit of logic to the Silverstein statement, so I’ll start by doing that. *


The setting: Larry Silverstein is being interviewed by a documentary crew from PBS. He calmly, clearly describes what happened. CTs would have us believe that Silverstein accidentally let it slip – twice, for a national TV audience – that he ordered his building to be demolished! Does that make any sense whatsoever? Can the CTs give an example of a similar “accidental confession” of a monumental crime in the history of the world? Keep in mind that if Silverstein thought he had said something wrong, he could simply have asked the crew to shoot that part again. Silverstein is a very smart guy who is in full possession of his mental faculties. He didn’t “slip up.”

"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander...”

That was 32-year-veteran Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro, who was in charge of the World Trade Center incident following Chief of Department Peter Ganci’s death in the collapse of the north tower. Silverstein was at home with his wife when he received the courtesy call from Chief Nigro in the afternoon.

“...telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire...”

That’s correct, as we will see in great detail below. *

“...and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.'”

Let’s use some logic. Was Silverstein saying,

“We’ve had such terrible loss of life that it would be wise to blow up my building,”

or was he saying,

“We’ve had such terrible loss of life that it would be wise to withdraw firefighters to prevent further loss of life”? Be honest, CTs. Which statement makes sense, and which is completely absurd?

Next, did Larry Silverstein, a real estate developer, have the world’s largest fire department at his beck and call? Of course not. Larry Silverstein had no say in how firefighting operations in New York City were conducted. He may have liked to think that Chief Nigro was calling him for a consultation, but that idea is laughable. It was a courtesy call.

“And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

Who made the decision to pull? They. The fire department. Not “Me,” not “We.” They. This is ridiculously obvious to anyone but a CT. Does the FDNY demolish buildings with explosives? No, they pull their people away from buildings that are too dangerous to be near. The “we” in “we watched the building collapse” is Silverstein and his wife. Silverstein was not at the WTC site.*

Note: They watched it collapse some three hours later after the fires had continued to rage and spread unabated.
*
 
iwant8inches, I read the article you posted, which was quite good, although I disagree with the author's basic conclusions. I also understand that you don't buy into the full conspiracy (i.e. no planes and such).

While the article does make some compelling points, not everything it mentions is actually scandalous or even incriminating information.

Some of the things Hicks mentions I'm unfamiliar with so I must take his word for it, but things such as the failure of the findings of Able Danger to make it to the top of our security priorities have been investigated ad nauseum and were covered in all the hearings. It was publicized and talked about shortly after 9/11 when folks started to question how our intelligence networks failed so badly. One thing to consider when purusing Hicks article is that the US intelligence community has undergone a massive reformation and is still undergoing restructuring. There are many books and papers written about how truly dysfunctional intelligence had become, which was in fact a major factor in 9/11. Some of the problems Hicks seems to innsinuate as some sort of sinister plot are in fact well documented snafus where people simply weren't talking to each other and information had become compartmentalized between rival agencies (as you'll recall, the FBI, CIA, DOD Intelligence had become so mistrustful and annoywed with each other, a scheme of something along the lines of "intella-bucks" was proposed at one point just to get them to share information).

Mr. Hicks places a little too much faith in the competence of governmenta agencies, as he implies a motive to any oversight or unexplained error in the rationale behind their actions. This isn't a truly cogent presentation of an argument, it is more along the lines of assigning motive to things that simply seem counter-intuitive or he doesn't understand the reasoning behind.

And this leads me to my main criticism, which is that despite the many different items he mentions, he fails to draw any specific connection or thread between all of them. He points out many isolated and quite well known (some also entirely unconfirmed as they appear only in one book or from questionable sources - this severely weakens his argument when he must relie on other cover-up minded literature to bolster his own) happenings, but there is no explanation of the motive, the actual conspirators, why they did this, how they executed it, etc. There is no coherent explanation despite what he suggests are numerous smoking guns, and he fails to offer anything approximating solid evidence of this cover-up.

Now, I realize he may just be making the point that we should keep looking into the matter, as he sees too many indicators of foul play - this I have no problem with, so long as he isn't insinuating a conspiracy without having provided a single shred of evidence. Unexplained events, coincidence, troubling testimony - he identifies things that he feels fit this description, but not evidence. So like I said, his artivle stands so long as he is only making a case for more research rather than telling us that there is in fact solid evidence that members of the government conspired to make this happen.

Frankly, I'm unsure which he believes he's accomplishing with the article.

I'm making another post with some more specific criticisms.
 
stridge -

more wtc7 from u know who http://www.infowars.com/articles/se..._downed_more_ground_zero_heroes_on_record.htm
two gone public here... worth a read me thinks.

NIST, FEMA, and a host of others have said firefighters weren't in the building... if they were, surely they would have known? how could they possibley not know the whereabouts and movements of the NYFD on 9/11?
if they published it, or stated it publicly, or otherwise, surely they would recount what they knew.

Larry said "pull it" i wana know what he meant?

building or firefighters? somewhere the official story has got its wires majorly crossed and nobody has ammended this. why?

repost:
wtc7 fell in nigh-on perfect vertical freefall in 6.5 seconds and onto its own footprint... are we in agreement here?

according to the structural blueprints made readily avalible, wtc7 had 58 perimeter columns and 25 core columns. for the building to collapse onto its footprint in this manner the perimeter and core columns must be broken in the same split-second. or all core columns must fail uniformily in order for the perimeter columns to lean inward and ergo collapse.

resources aplenty will attest the above.

if you juxdipose wtc7 with a controlled implosion you plainly see that they fall identically, and carry all the visual hallmarks.
if wtc7 wasn't a controlled implosion, then 83 columns would have had to have failed just about at the very same moment. correct? coz i don't recall any resistence to note what so ever.

why then did a team of the worlds finest maestro engineers not descend upon wtc7 to discover the hows and whys, so that this ineffable abnormal occurance would never happen again?
why didn't Larry or one of his advisors order this? i would demand it if the site of my new building that i MUST build was in exactly the same location.

and why for the life of me can i still not find a single COMPLETE collapse of a steel frame building by dint of fire?... let alone one which fell in the manor as wtc7.

i haven't watched screw loose change yet as i was super busy at the weekend, and don't wana watch it in bits.


keep pushing
 
"A bipartisan consensus on torture; an era of permanent war; detentions without trial; "no fly" lists for activists; the Bill of Rights gone with the wind, and a cowed professional media willing to self-censor and suppress pertinent information. The 9/11 "America Attacked" story has distracted us from the natural outrage we should feel over illegal wiretaps, stolen elections, hundreds of billions of dollars missing at the Pentagon, war profiteering, Enron and Cheney's secret energy policy."

Most of my grievance stem from the first part of the article. As to the above - he incorrectly identifies some of those the benefits of political capital when in fact some what he was discussing are the result of executive decision and authority - something which requires no political capital. Already this person has revealed themselves to not have a strong command of what they're discussing.

And to suggest that there is no public outrage over wiretapping, torture, and the Patriot Act is absurd and blatantly shows a low opinion of his fellow citizens as well as a disconnect with what's actually going on in the country. There was and is tremendous outrage about all of those things and they have been among the most hotly debated issues for years. What is this guy talking about? He is in fact presenting a very slanted introduction to help seed the credebility of his statements. I doubt he's doing it intentionally, but one can't help but wonder how this man actually thinks there wasn't public outrage over the Enron scandal, or how he connects this to the "political capital" gained from 9/11 (in all fairness, he has demonstrated that he doesn't fully understand what political capital is, so perhaps he is just confused).

"But with Bush's popularity at a record low, a Zogby poll shows that over 40 percent of Americans now think there has been a "coverup" around 9/11."

He subverts his own credebility again, this time by conveniently leaving out a very interesting piece of information. Though the 40% is an actual figure, when respondents were prompted with the specifics of who or how the conspiracy might have been planned, i.e. names, mechanisms, or short asked to discuss it any further, the percentage dropped to single digits.

Simply put, he only cited part of the poll's information to make his viewpoint appear more common than it actually is, apparently in an effort lend legitimacy to his comments? Nobody ever said an argument had to be popular to be coherent - this guy didn't get the message.

"So, it's probably no surprise that the propaganda mills of the State Department have recently been cranking out attack websites, targeting 9/11 skepticism. And it's not a shocker that the normal channels of media have followed suit (Time, New York Times, etc.) What's weird is how similar the attacks sound in the hallowed halls of "respectable" left political opinion. "

Propaganda mills? What mills? I've worked with quite a few people from the State Department, and my dad was in the Foreign Service, and I don't recall ever hearing about any 'propaganda' officers. Also, I've been to the debunking sites as well know, and they're run by average private citizens that take issue with conspiracy theories about 9/11 or they just enjoy the debate. Here, Hicks is suggesting that any information online that debunks 9/11 info is state-sponsored. The leading 9/11 debunker is a tour guid from New York City, and a Canadian.

And in the same stroke, he demonizes any supposed leftist media that doesn't buy into the conspiracy/cover-up angle. This is a watered-down version of the "left gatekeepers" attack used by CTs (conspiracy theorists) against anybody on the left that doesn't agree with them. To the CTs, you're either onboard with them, or you're part of the enemy. Hicks fails to recognize the possibility that there are many in mainstream journalism that simply don't find the evidence and arguments in favor of conspiracy/cover-up to be compelling or supportable. Following Hicks' logic, anybody that doesn't see merit in his argument is actually purposefully supressing because of some agenda, rather than their actual lack of belief in the possiblity of conspiracy.

"What happened to critical thinking? I thought "the Left" believed that the system's power is based on lies, exploitation and a media controlled by its own culture of overly cautious professionalism. The Left should be leading this 9/11 movement, not taking potshots from outside."

Now what in all heck is he talking about here? First of all, this guy doesn't have the right to criticize anybody else on matters of critical thinking as he seems to have done none of it for this article. Second of all, he thinks the political left is based on the belief that the political system is based on "lies, exploitation and a media controlled by its own culture of overly cautious professionalism"?

Hold it right here. This guy is suggesting that the entire political left is built on these ideas. I must point out that this guy has now demonstrated that he knows very little about politics and is not writing from an informed vantage.

The political left is based on a general tendency towards more socialist-oriented social policies (public welfare, social security net, market regulation), as well as an emphasis on personal liberty and freedoom (sexual conduct, etc), and in the current state of political affairs a less aggressive forgien policy and the strong separation of church and state. And that's probably a mischaracterization as well - the political left encompasses a pretty wide range, and what puts people on the left or right of the spectrum is a large array of factors. And in truth, most people in this country are actually rather close to the middle ideology-wise, regardless of whether they identify as left or right leaning.

Newspapers like the NY Times are not the mouthpiece of some poltical contingent that believe the system is built on "lies, exploitation and a media controlled by its own culture of overly cautious professionalism," again, what is he talking about? The NY Time's number one priority is journalistic accuracy and factual support of its afrguments, it's not supposed to have a political agenda at all (although most suggest the editorship is slightly left-leaning, it's hardly a political paper).

This basically demonstrates to me that A) this guy doesn't udnerstand much about politics and doesn't do his homework, and B) he really doesn't know anything about how media works and is fairly naive. All he's done is project his assumptions about what the papers should be doing, then bitch at them for not carrying out Hicks' (who has repeatedly shown us that he is somehwat out of touch with the real world) agenda on the 9/11 cover-up. This is not factual writing anymore, he's ventured into fiction before even making his case about 9/11. This does not make me prone to listen to his arguments if he can't even keep it together in his introduction.

"In both pieces, the way 9/11 has been questioned was attacked, with no alternatives suggested. Instead, questioning 9/11 at all was belittled with sweeping generalizations."

No alternatives suggested? Again, what is he talking about? The alternative is what most of us believe actually happened - the plot was initiated and carried out by terrorists without the assistance of the US government. Honestly, and I know I'm bashing him, but this guy is doing a very poor job of presenting this. With the above quote he's essentially just whining that the ideas weren't treated kindly enough by their critics. The rebuttal may have contained some generalizations, but the fundamental disagreement by the establisHydromaxent is the massive lack of evidence of collusion and conspiracy.

"The Left has no right to ignore or insult people for trying to assemble the puzzle that is 9/11."

Actually, they have the right to do both. It may not be the correct thing to do or in good taste, but his insistence that they are obligated to listen to his ideas is a bit strange. The 'left' (and we have already identified that Hicks really doesn't know what this is) is under no obligation to address conspiracy theiories - suggesting that they do once again demonstrates that Hicks feels that it is the left's natural domain to champion conspiracies, why does he think this is the case? Because Bush is a Republican? Shouldn't it be the concern of people of all political persuasions if the US government is assisting in murdering thousands of their fellow citizens and then deceiving them about it in order to carry out their clandestine plots?

Seems like a bipartisan issue if I ever heard of one. Like most other conspiracy guys, Hicks is hurt that the majority of politically like-minded liberals don't agree with his ideas, so he repeatedly suggests that they are somehow obligated to deal with this stuff. Very bizarre reasoning, but I'm already growing used to it.

"Then, Pakistan's top spy, MaHydromaxood AHydromaxad, visited Washington for a week, taking meetings with top State Department people like Tenet and Mark Grossman, under secretary of state for political affairs. The Pakistani press reported, "ISI Chief Lt-Gen MaHydromaxood's weeklong presence in Washington has triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council." Did they know that AHydromaxad had wired over $100,000 to Mohamed Atta, through U.K. national Saeed Sheikh in the summer of 2001? (Facts all confirmed, quietly, by the FBI investigation in Pakistan, and, partially, in the Wall Street Journal.)"

I'd never heard of this, and it is interesting. So then, is there evidence that AHydromaxad was in cahoots with Al Qaeda? My problem with this is that it's nto sourced, which doesn't mean that it's not true, but I'd like to see where it comes from and how it was actually reported, and also the fact that he mentions an FBI investigation.

This is what I'm always talking about with these things - if the FBI investigated this and didn't take any action then one of two things is possible.

1) They found no wrong-doing on the part of the government or anything suspicious above the normal intelligence operations.

2) They found that top official in our government (Tenet, Armitage) were helping a Pakistani super-spy funnel money to a hi-jacker, apparently in exchange for his suicide on 9/11 ($100K? That guys is cheap!). Also in the process, the government officials were so sloppy with this that the Wall Street Journal wrote a nice little expose about it, which didn't catch anybody's attention, and didn't prompt any investigations despite their obvious payout to the hijacker.

See how this stacks up? Hicks presents something rather ominous sounding the way he puts it across, but when we examine the logistics of it, it begins to seem like an increasingly unlikely scenario. What is he implying here? If what he's suggesting is true, this a smoking gun in full public knowledge - he doesn't mention any follow-up research, whether Tenet and Armitage ever clarified or confirmed this stuff, nothing - just an isolated presentation about something which we have only a tiny fraction of the facts on.

And isn't the WSJ a right-wing paper (sort of, yeah)? How come they're the ones reporting on these shady dealings? Isn't that the job of the left. This guy can't even stick to his own personalized media perspective.

He goes on for a few paragraphs explaining how shady it is that a hijacker may have had a few degrees of seperation from the government officials (just one actually, and he suggests they were intentionally paying him off), but does nothing to support or explain the information he has already presented. He then quotes Bob GraHydromax as saying:

"I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government and that we have been derelict in our duty to track that down, make the further case, or find the evidence that would indicate that that is not true."

He mentions nothing about the $100K or our government, he simply says that our intelligence hasn't done enough to trace financing - and I know for the fact he was talking about the Middle East because the quote was played ad nauseum during the hearings. How does this support Hicks' contention in the least? The Senator is talking about our failure to collect intell on possible foreign governments secretly bankrolling Al Qaeda - not saying anything about a cover-up in the US. He's lambasting intelligence for not functioning well and not getting the job done, not being compromised, corrupt, or unwilling. He uses the word "derelict," which basically means asleep at the wheel. Nothing about a cover-up is found in his words.

Hicks attempts to put the quote in the context of his own article in such a way that it can be construed in this fashion - sneaky sneaky. We're quite a ways in and he hasn't made a compelling point yet.

Forgot about this: "As this story first broke in the Times of India, in October 2001, instead of retaliating, the United States gave Pakistan $3 billion in U.S. aid. AHydromaxad was allowed to quietly resign."

A) Why is the Time of India breaking a news story that intimately involves our top government officials? Do we have a Pentagon leak to New Dehli?

B) Hicks, who at least took care to suggest that the purported contact with the Pakistani spy was just a connection to the hijacker, not a deliberate action, now directly implies that it was perhaps intentional

C) This suggests that we base our foreign policy around the Times of India - something that I'm personally against

D) Retaliate? I thought this guy was a leftist? Againast Pakistan, a country with nukes? I assume he's not taling about military retaliation, but he obviously knows nothing about our diplomatic relationship with that country.

Hmm okay, great idea. Destroy a tenuous relationship with a nuclearly active nation in the heart of terrorist country who we count on for assistance and cooperation in the region because of the possible actions (as reported by the Times of India!) of one of their spies. This will definately aid us in the long term and is a shred diplomatic move. Hicks for secredtary of state.

Retaliate - as usual, what is this guy talking about? He is magnificent at proving over and over again that he has a very simplified and nearly child-like perception of how media, diplomacy, intelligence, and damn near anything else he talks about works. Astounding.

I'm out of time to post for the moment, but rest assured I have plenty more to say about the article if you're interested in hearing it.

Just to comment on Able Danger - Hicks brings it up like its some kind of revelation, but as I mentioned in another post, Able Danger has been carpet bombed with investigations and reports. Hicks writes about it like it's some kind of cover-up and mystery - it's not, this is misrepresentation, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the guy just hasn't done his homework.

Anyway, as you can see, I don't put a lot of stock in the article. It's not persuasive and very poorly done.

He's not making a case, he's complaining a whole lot, saying things that are blatantly wrong, and then citing a bunch of unconnected things in an attempt to create the sense that there is some over-arching cover-up happening, without ever actually presenting any evidence.
 
Reber, check the excerpts I posted, read the link, check out Screw Loose Change. It's really difficult for me to cover all that stuff (although we've basically been over all of it).

I'm going to be honest here, and this may step on some people's toes, but I'm a little frustrating that nobody seems to check out any of the materials I present, but I take the time to read and look at what is suggested to me.

I'm having to repeat myself a huge number of times on certain points because people either aren't reading or are refusing to check out what I point them towards, which explains things better than I can in a single post.

Screw Loose Change and the link I posted discuss WT7 and Silverstein at length, and make the same points I would be arguing in a much more digestable fashion.

But, in response: I didn't know the NIST report said the firefighters never went in, my mistake. What I do know is that there are numerous quotes and documentation from the firefighters themselves about being ordered out of the vicinity of WT7 (where they were seraching for other lost firefighters) because it was widely believed amongst all personel that it was in danger of collapsing. That is what the "pull it" was referring to.

Please read the excerpts I posted, visit the webpage or download the original PDF, and check out Screw Loose Change. Larry Silverstein didn't order anything - you're hung up on this point put if you would actually look at the material I think that it would clarify it for you.

So far as the building falling at free fall? It doesn't - you can clearly see debris falling faster than the building, but that's really neither here nor there.

Besides the overwhelming evidence that you're ignoring that "pull" referred to the fire teams, here's this:

*******************************************

Is “Pull” Used by Demolitions Professionals to Mean

“Demolish a Structure With Explosives?”

No.*

Brent Blanchard, a demolitions expert with Protec, and contributor to ImplosionWorld.com, weighs in with his expert opinion:


We have never once heard the term 'pull it' being used to refer to the explosive demolition of a building, and neither has any blast team we've spoken with. The term is used in conventional demolition circles, to describe the specific activity of attaching long cables to a pre-weakened building and maneuvering heavy equipment (excavators, bulldozers etc) to 'pull' the frame of the structure over onto its side for further dismantlement. This author and our research team were on site when workers pulled over the six story remains of WTC6 in late fall 2001, however we can say with certainty that a similar operation would have been logistically impossible at Ground Zero on 9/11, physically impossible for a building the size of WTC7, and the structure did not collapse in that manner anyway.


In the weeks following 9/11, several Protec building inspectors and staff photographers, including this author, were contracted by demolition teams to document the deconstruction and debris removal processes at Ground Zero. These processes included the mechanical pull-down of the remains of the U.S. Customs Building (WTC 6) and various other activities occurring simultaneously throughout the site. http://tinyurl.com/z6zyc*

******************************************

So there's at least one demolitions expert directly controvertinf the conspiracy claim that "pull" meant blow up the building. Go to my earlier post to see the quotes from Fire Chief Daniel Nigro that also make this clear. Or, please, just visit this link and read them from the originial source:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...r+7&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I don't mean to get testy, but when I have the same questions asked repeatedly and it seems the information I've already posted has been entirely ignored, it pisses me off. We can't debate this if nobody is examining what is presented to them.
 
stridge -

i've read most of what you post, and because it states in one of your links that i am wrong then i am wrong?

6.5 seconds... 0.5 slower than freefall in a vacuum(controlled implosion speed) you drop a stone at the same moment and it would have hit the ground at 6 seconds... don't link me to a page that tries its damdest to explain away my questions in print. show me a builing that has ever done that in a complete collapse... and it doesn't even have to be as a result of fire... show me one that pancakes without a shred of resistance.

wtc1 & wtc2 collapse in the morning, fire fighters doing their duty without a second thought, saving lives... do you think that so many firefighters would have hotfooted into the towers at the stratigic command of their superiors if they were aware that steel frame buildings collapse by virtue of fire... and surley they would have learnt a monumental, stark lesson when the towers collapsed and had to enter wtc7.

how many firefighters went into wtc7? not many me thinks, and certainly not to fight fires because of what they would have wittnessed hours before. plus the building was utterly empty, why would they fight it from within? risk value 10/10.

which makes the "pull it" firefighters, or any other "pull" remark extremly contensious. who were they refering to if nobody was inside the building... why did NIST, FEMA and the like, state that there was no active firefighting within wtc7? please answer this, its of utmost importance... the only official governmental investigation team(FEMA) are still unsure of what brought down wtc7... NIST ain't touching it full stop... and no other private entity that im cogent of has conducted an investigation... WHAT THE FUCK???

If Larry meant pull the firefighters good for Larry... im not hung up on "pull it" but i will use it as a gateway over and over to push my painstakingly simple questions that don't get answered.

repost: you discredited the explosive devices in the columns claim when 10inch(i think) reported the perfect "45% slices" witnessed in the aftermath... here is what implosionworld have got to say.

this is what i found on http://www.implosionworld.com/dyk3.html who for the record debunk any 9/11 implosion myths:

(note the buzz words here and reflect on a previous post)

Concrete columns are generally easier to destroy, and usually require a small amount of conventional dynamite packed into specially drilled holes. Steel beams, however, require a very high-velocity explosive to perform a 'cutting' action through the steel. A specialized explosive called RDX, made famous by NASA’s space program, is used to perform this task. This copper-encased explosive is physically attached to the beam, and upon detonation 'slices' at an incredible 27,000 feet per second. A small amount of conventional dynamite is also attached to the beam to 'kick' it out of place so the structure will fall uniformly, in a direction predesignated by the blaster.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/building-implosion.htm A-Z of building implosion... apply where needed.

you pretty much answered nothing from my last post so i'll assume its all covered in screw.


keep pushing
 
I just want to say a few things here then catch up with the thread.

I did not pay my bills and well uh had no internet/phone for a brief time here and then a snow storm or something disrupted service when I did pay so I only just finished the "Screw" vids the last two days.

stridge, thank you for pointing those videos out because I wanted to know answers to my questions and I feel both Screw Loose Change and Screw 9/11Mysteries which I looked for and found thanks in part to your pointing out the SLC video. I no longer believe in the controlled demolition theory. It does not make sense at all. The NIST report is still troubling to me and I am nearly finished reading it online as of today, however I can't give credence to the absurdity that stands as the basis for many arguments dismissing the official conclusions made about the Twin Towers' and WTC7's collapse.

I remain troubled by how such an event could just happen. I know airport security had never been our strong suit here in the States that was known and warned about for quite a while before 9/11. I'd like to see just how much could have been done to prevent the terrorist acts from occurring. The Clinton and (W) Bush administrations seem to have either shortened the leash on the FBI when it came to investigating any suspicious Saudi activity when it came to money exchanging hands(Clinton) or downright halted FBI investigations into such matters(W. Bush). There is likely an embarassment to be found if we were allowed to know about the specifics surrounding what was known prior to 9/11. Perhaps as we sit here today that next big blow is or has been planned and it will indeed be far worse.(nuclear) Have we done enough to actually ensure our safety from a terrorist attack involving nuclear material? The only thing that I am certain of is that I never want our country to ask what more could have been done to prevent a nuclear attack. Bombing Iran isn't going to help anyone. God, could we use another Eisenhower now.
 
Reber - It seemed more like you were ignoring some of the stuff I posted - such as the direct quotes from Chief Daniel Nigro (the guy Silverstein was on the phone with) about 'pulling' his people out of the area. Let's just clear this up:

"wtc1 & wtc2 collapse in the morning, fire fighters doing their duty without a second thought, saving lives... do you think that so many firefighters would have hotfooted into the towers at the stratigic command of their superiors if they were aware that steel frame buildings collapse by virtue of fire... and surley they would have learnt a monumental, stark lesson when the towers collapsed and had to enter wtc7."

Firefighters bravel went into those building as a first response because theye here HIT BY PLANES! Makes them a bit of a priority, and the towers are some the tallest freestanding structures in the world. They knew there were potentially thousands of people trapped up there as the situation was immediately dire. Having steel frames in the buildings had nothing to do with the fire deparment going in there - I'm not sure where your head is at with this, you usually make far more compelling arguments. They weren't worrying about steel-frames this or that day, but you can bet they were concerned with collapse.

WT7 was a different story - it burneed for far longer than the other towers, and there is a multiplicity of quotes from fire and emergency personel that shows that many of them suspected WT7 was going to collapse at one point. They described raging fires on six floors, structural damage, and a slumping and sagging appearance in the middle of the building as well as groaning noises from the super-structure straining. There was widespread suspicion on the ground that it was going to come down - that's why Fire Chief Daniel Nigro made the call and evacuated the area.

Firefighters were in the close vicinity (though likely not in the building) searching for fallen comrades that had disappeared in the rubble of the towers when Nigro called for a full evacuation of the entire area around WT7 - three hours before it came down. This is all heavily documented and backed up with eyewitness accounts, recordings, you name it. It is also explained in lots of the stuff I linked and the movie.

"how many firefighters went into wtc7? not many me thinks, and certainly not to fight fires because of what they would have wittnessed hours before. plus the building was utterly empty, why would they fight it from within? risk value 10/10"

Like I said, read the reports. They were in the immediate vicinity looking for people and observing the building, controlling the situation, but mostly searching for other downed firefighters. They had no ability to fight fires in WT7 whatsoever because of the broken water main that has been previously discussed on this thread - that's well known. They were doing many other thngs on 9/11 besides trying to knock out fires, it wouldn't have even been possible with the size of the fire in WT7 and the number of men and resources available.

"which makes the "pull it" firefighters, or any other "pull" remark extremly contensious. who were they refering to if nobody was inside the building... why did NIST, FEMA and the like, state that there was no active firefighting within wtc7? please answer this, its of utmost importance"

Happy to, although I believe I already have. They meant "pull" the fire team presence in the area. The call from Chief Nigro to Silverstein was a courtesy call to basically let him know that nothing could or would be done about WT7 because of the collapse danger that so many were seeing develop. This is all explained in detail in the movie and the link, and numerous websites have recording and transcripts of many firefighters using the term "pull" in referring to themselves and other firefighters moving out of an area.

I looked at your stuff on explosives, but I'm not sure what you're getting at with it? How does that help prove a controlled demolition took place? I'm just not quite sure what you're showing me there. One thing you might be interested to look up on that website is that all controlled demolitions are a rapid and similar process, where uniformed charges rapidly shred the foundations and supports of a building from the bottom up, allowing for an obvious top-down freefall pattern. The trade centers don't follow this in the least and no uniformed explosions are visible, nor do the events begin at the bottom of the building as any controlled explosive demolition would, but I digress. Watch the video to see some more clear visual evidence.

"you pretty much answered nothing from my last post so i'll assume its all covered in screw."

I choose to avoid a few points, but I'd really like you to have a look at that link or at least the video first. I'm answering the same questions over and over again (how many times have we been over Silverstein?), but nothing I say makes the case as strongly as the compiled sources. It really doesn't take long to get through Richard's compilation/paper thing about 9/11, and screw loose change is fairly long, but that's because it's thorough.

In any case, let me know what questions (hopefully new questions) I haven't addressed and I promise I'll respond. In any case, that's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black as I could probably go back through this thread and find dozens of direct questions that I have never recieved an answer to from anybody, but not a big deal, I'm not here to keep score.
 
iwant8inches -

Thanks for watching with an open mind, I think you may be among the only people who have resonded to this thread that can stomach looking at something coming from the other side of things.

In regards to your ongoing concerns about the government, some of what you discuss does hold potential, but I've never argued against the administratively ineffective and generally bumblefucked nature of the government. I think there were many oversights, poor decisions, and as you mention certain interferences that helped facilitate 9/11, but I don't believe that members of the goernment got together and actually planned out a scenario make or help this thing happen. There may be a degree of corruption and facts people don't want coming out (even poor little Sandy Berger was caught jamming documents into his shoes at one point and he served under Clinton) because they reveal incompitence, embarassing neglagence, or actions that demonstrate their apathy and lack of interest helped make 9/11 possible.

But I think it's a big leap to go from that to intentional efforts on the part of very high ranking people to intentionally murder potentially uge numbers of their fellow citizens. That's cold-blooded mass murder, and no matter what you may think of these people, that's something that very few are capable of, and even fewer capable of keeping secret. To me that's a more functional argument against the conspiracy than all this physics and logisitic stuff that conspiracists have become obsessed with.
 
Great Article From Rolling Stone

***********************************************

THE LOW POST: I, Left Gatekeeper
Why the "9/11 Truth" movement makes the "Left Behind" sci-fi series read like Shakespeare

MATT TAIBBI


A few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge of fuck-you mail that I actually got. Apparently every third person in the United States thinks George Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks.

"You're just another MSM-whore left gatekeeper paid off by corporate America," said one writer. "What you do isn't journalism at all, you dick," said another. "You're the one who's clinically insane," barked a third, before educating me on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.

I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. In fact, if there were any conspiracy here, I'd be far more inclined to believe that this whole movement was cooked up by Karl Rove as a kind of mass cyber-provocation, along the lines of Gordon Liddy hiring hippie peace protesters to piss in the lobbies of hotels where campaign reporters were staying.

Secondly, it's bad enough that people in this country think Tim LaHaye is a prophet and Sean Hannity is an objective newsman. But if large numbers of people in this country can swallow 9/11 conspiracy theory without puking, all hope is lost. Our best hope is that the Japanese take pity on us and allow us to serve as industrial slaves in their future empire, farming sushi rice and assembling robot toys.

I don't have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I'll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn't offer an affirmative theory of the crime.

Forget for a minute all those Internet tales about inexplicable skyscraper fires, strange holes in the ground at Shanksville and mysterious flight manifestoes. What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement?

Strikingly, there is no obvious answer to that question, since for all the many articles about "Able Danger" and the witnesses who heard explosions at Ground Zero, there is not -- at least not that I could find -- a single document anywhere that lays out a single, concrete theory of what happened, who ordered what and when they ordered it, and why. There obviously is such a theory, but it has to be pieced together by implication, by paying attention to the various assertions of 9/11 lore (the towers were mined, the Pentagon was really hit by a cruise missile, etc.) and then assembling them later on into one single story. But the funny thing is, when you put together all of those disparate theories, you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.

The specifics vary, but the basic gist of what They Say Happened goes something like this:

A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for the New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to Al Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote-control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with Al Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!

Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dick, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the hell does that accomplish? If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all -- only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won't see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the "conspiracy" they're describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie -- unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.

We are to imagine that not one of Bush's zillions of murderous confederates would slip and leave real incriminating evidence anywhere along the way, forcing us to deduce this massive crime via things like the shaking of a documentary filmmaker's tripod before the Towers' collapse (aha, see that shaking -- it must have been a bomb planted by the president and his ten thousand allies!). Richard Nixon was a hundred times smarter than Bush, and he couldn't prevent leaks and cries of anguished pseudo-conscience from sprouting among a dozen intimately involved conspirators -- but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd.

I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum, on the order of the "sonar evidence" proving the existence of the Loch Ness monster. If you can't put all of these alleged scientific impossibilities together into a story that makes sense, then all you're doing is jerking off -- and it's not like no one's ever done that on the Internet before.

Whenever anyone chooses to dismiss 9/11 conspiracy theorists, accusations fly; the Internet screams that you've aided and abetted George Bush. I disagree. To me, the 9/11 Truth movement is, itself, a classic example of the pathology of George Bush's America. Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers. There are as many Thomas Paines in the 9/11 Truth movement as there are Isaac Newtons among the Intelligent Design crowd.

There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullshit that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us.
 
Didn't have time to watch the video, on the way out the door - but I did see that it was produced by our good friend Dylan Avery, and we've all seen what an astounding amount of integrity this guy has. For instance, when he proudly supported his friend Jason Burmas as he proclaimed "The Firefighters are paid off!" to a crowd at Ground Zero, on the anniversay of 9/11. Great guys.

Secondly, that's not surprising that the officer heard some explosions. In actuality, even firefighters who knew what was happening have described exploding noises. Specifically, compressed air exploding out of the building as the floors collapsed.

Also, how near could the officer have been? They evacuated the area and sealed off, if I understand the NYFD's account of the matter correctly. He really couldn't have been in any better vantage point than any of the hundreds, maybe thousands of other range witnesses to the collapse. If he had been too close, we wouldn't be speaking with him. And of course, bring a police office, he's an expert on structural fires and fully qualified to evaluate the damage to WT7. Never mind that there is a plethora of pictures that show massive amounts of smoke and firing streaming from multiple floors and serious damage to the building. I'll take the guy remembers from that day over photographic evidence.

Of course, it doesn't help that the guy is also suggesting his own custom angles to the conspiracy - namely that he believes the whole thing was being run from WT7, hence the need to detonate it (wait I thought it was all for the insurance payout?).

Listen man, theres tons of stuff like that on good old 'infowars.com,' I've looked at lots of it. The fact of the matter is, a police officer, who also reveals that he's a conspiracy theorist, having heard what he thought were some explosions is not exactly damning evidence that the US government conspired to blow up the buildings.

I think everything you've posted for me to look at his come from one website, and they've all been the same thing: people claiming to have witnessed something fishy/contradictory that day, and not incidentally people who also uniformly reveal that they're conspiracy believers.

This is about equal to be showing you a quote from a firefighter that says he saw a lot of structural damage and heavy fire (there are many of them, actually) who doesn't believe he heard any bombs going off, and also doesn't believe the buildings were brought down with demolition. Get my drift here? Show me something new . . . thought you were done with this by the way? Did you watch the movie? Read the Richards article? Just curious.
 
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slow down Iwant8inches.

screw loose change? hummmm

i didn't want to enter the twin towers collapse debate but i must.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

taken from
http://911scholars.org/

who's on board
http://911scholars.org/WhoAreWe.html

if you don't have time to read it watch the short 8min vid near the bottom.

don't cast aside what you see visually for what someone is telling you... seeing is believing.
the science here is simple... the offical story fails on all fronts.


keep pushing
 
Reber187 said:
slow down Iwant8inches.

screw loose change? hummmm

i didn't want to enter the twin towers collapse debate but i must.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

taken from
http://911scholars.org/

who's on board
http://911scholars.org/WhoAreWe.html

if you don't have time to read it watch the short 8min vid near the bottom.

don't cast aside what you see visually for what someone is telling you... seeing is believing.
the science here is simple... the offical story fails on all fronts.


keep pushing

I've seen all the info that you are posting here. I need proof now. Plus, what good is accomplished by making unfounded assertions that serve as flimsy alternative explanations for the Towers' collapse. I have slowed down and I have a better perspective as far as what "both" sides of the argument have to say about the matter. I'll post later in the week about a few thoughts of mine.
 
Reber187 said:
BANG BANG BANG! multiple fuck ups here in under 5 minutes...

NIST Engineer, John Gross, Denies Reports About Molten Steel at the WTC | 911Blogger.com

and these are the guys u rest your faith in?

you can only laugh.


keep pushing

I'm in the group that was there and helps film that stuff. We're a UT organization and we're about bringing the truth to the people. I recommend that anyone coming into Austin stop by Brave New Books on Guadalupe street (the drag) and check out all the amazing info they have there.

I want to find a link that has Alex's speech here at UT last month. That was so badass.
 
for all those who it may concern... thats everybody.

i only just read this(disregard 'conspiracy', its the site name, not the topic): The Federal Reserve: An Astounding Exposure 1934, Congressman McFadden's Speech

and thought it apt to attach the following video:
Fiat Empire - A Closer Look at the Federal Reserve - Google Video

if you want anymore evidence that your country will fuck you every which way it can and wants, i urge you to read and view the above respectively, and then do your own research.

WHY DO Penis EnlargementOPLE FIGHT THE FACT THAT THE SUPenis EnlargementR-BANKERS CONTROL EVERYTHING... HISTORY ONLY KNOWS TRUTH.

10inch - if you aint watched it, do so.


keep pushing
 
Look, if you believe in a conspiracy you must have some sort of proof. Where is the evidence suggesting your conspiracy? I think it makes little sense to try to guess what "really happened," when the best course to take would be to build a case that exposes the holes in the official story and NIST report. There are legitimate qualms with how the investigation into 9/11 was conducted as well as with the conclusions made in the NIST report namely those about the collapse intitation/the steel temperatures and the data from their own physical tests. The NIST couldn't find any steel hotter than 1112F and 98% of their steel samples were under 500F.

9/11 Commissioner, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence - "that panel members so distrusted testimony from Pentagon
officials that they referred their concerns to the Pentagon's inspector
general...We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were
getting"


Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Permanent Select Committee
on Intelligence, Homeland Security Advisory Council ~ "we got started late; we had a very short time frame...we did not have enough money...We had a lot of people strongly opposed to what we did. We had a lot of trouble getting access to documents and to people. ... So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail"

But molten steel? Where was it proven that molten steel was present? Could it have been some other metal? I'm willing to believe it if there is proof. Perhaps it was a mixture of aluminum/wood/combustible material.

Explosives bringing the buildings down? Where are the seismographs that detected the secondary waves? The steel core and some of the outer steel structures were anchored into the ground. S waves would have been picked up if actual explosives were used to bring down the NYC buildings. At this point I haven't seen a sound argument made by someone claiming a controlled demolition caused the collapses. There was a footprint left by the two buildings six times larger than there would have been if a controlled demolition had occurred. When would there have been enough time to rig the buildings? Tons of explosive material would have had to be used. Plus, by everyone's account the towers collapsed top-down and the buildings certainly damaged other buildings around them. Also, no one has an actual official collapse time or do they? I am under the impression that no one has an actual time. I have seen estimates around 15-16 seconds depending on which of the WTC (1 & 2) are being referenced.

The use of thermate is something that is more believable than explosives, but the time and amount of materials required to destroy the buildings makes that idea suspect. I would like to see this explored a bit more if possible.

Build a substantiated argument. Finding the "whole" truth in this case will require a more thorough and open investigation and you won't get anywhere but further from the truth espousing different theories some of which contradict the others. Energy beams and no plane theories are just craziness and probably are just pushed by whores looking for a buck.

And I think quite a few of us have seen those videos and the video America- Freedom to Fascism all ready, but what exactly does that have to do with 9/11? Loose Change bringing up Operation Northwoods(which did actually involve a few scenarios where real casulties, Cuban and U.S. people alike would take place) at least was just showing that as far as we know the government at one time had such a plan on the table. It's a good thing McNamara didn't approve. Still, you must prove culpability and even then you must first bring forth evidence. I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.
 
iwant8inches said:
Look, if you believe in a conspiracy you must have some sort of proof. Where is the evidence suggesting your conspiracy? I think it makes little sense to try to guess what "really happened," when the best course to take would be to build a case that exposes the holes in the official story and NIST report. There are legitimate qualms with how the investigation into 9/11 was conducted as well as with the conclusions made in the NIST report namely those about the collapse intitation/the steel temperatures and the data from their own physical tests. The NIST couldn't find any steel hotter than 1112F and 98% of their steel samples were under 500F.

9/11 Commissioner, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence - "that panel members so distrusted testimony from Pentagon
officials that they referred their concerns to the Pentagon's inspector
general...We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were
getting"


Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Permanent Select Committee
on Intelligence, Homeland Security Advisory Council ~ "we got started late; we had a very short time frame...we did not have enough money...We had a lot of people strongly opposed to what we did. We had a lot of trouble getting access to documents and to people. ... So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail"

But molten steel? Where was it proven that molten steel was present? Could it have been some other metal? I'm willing to believe it if there is proof. Perhaps it was a mixture of aluminum/wood/combustible material.

Explosives bringing the buildings down? Where are the seismographs that detected the secondary waves? The steel core and some of the outer steel structures were anchored into the ground. S waves would have been picked up if actual explosives were used to bring down the NYC buildings. At this point I haven't seen a sound argument made by someone claiming a controlled demolition caused the collapses. There was a footprint left by the two buildings six times larger than there would have been if a controlled demolition had occurred. When would there have been enough time to rig the buildings? Tons of explosive material would have had to be used. Plus, by everyone's account the towers collapsed top-down and the buildings certainly damaged other buildings around them. Also, no one has an actual official collapse time or do they? I am under the impression that no one has an actual time. I have seen estimates around 15-16 seconds depending on which of the WTC (1 & 2) are being referenced.

The use of thermate is something that is more believable than explosives, but the time and amount of materials required to destroy the buildings makes that idea suspect. I would like to see this explored a bit more if possible.

Build a substantiated argument. Finding the "whole" truth in this case will require a more thorough and open investigation and you won't get anywhere but further from the truth espousing different theories some of which contradict the others. Energy beams and no plane theories are just craziness and probably are just pushed by whores looking for a buck.

And I think quite a few of us have seen those videos and the video America- Freedom to Fascism all ready, but what exactly does that have to do with 9/11? Loose Change bringing up Operation Northwoods(which did actually involve a few scenarios where real casulties, Cuban and U.S. people alike would take place) at least was just showing that as far as we know the government at one time had such a plan on the table. It's a good thing McNamara didn't approve. Still, you must prove culpability and even then you must first bring forth evidence. I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.

you have shifted your opinion and thats your decision based on the evidence you've been exposed to.

i ask you this, have you read the NIST report?

if you have read it, im sure you'll agree that it does NOT explain, prove, evident, how the buildings collapsed... it hypothizes. if thats fact for you and who ever else wishes to deem it so then good for you... i ain't for me.

"I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.

your faith in government and the elite is beyond me.

if ten men are stood in a line, and you're told the one 3rd from left has served time for multiple rape convictions, and then your informed a women was raped in the some village as this man lives last night and he was in that very village; who do you think it is morethanlikely commited that rape?

history only knows truth. the administration need to prove their innocents... they have not and cannot.

where will your allegiance lie when Iran, Lybia, or Venezula feels the brunt of America's template of power extension? i guess we'll just wait and see.

and don't ask for the "proof" of this or the "proof" of that. we both know the solid eveidence that would expose the inside job was removed from the site... which began on september 11th.
is it not a federal offence to tamper with a crime scene? FUCK NO, not for 9/11, coz the rules were suspended for 9/11... fuck it, we'll even suspend the rules of gravity, why not... how about we break all the rules and then tell 'em what to think.

how can you swallow this shit? how can you swallow "offical" reports, studies, etc that lie and distort fact? NIST wrote that there were no central columns in the trade centres core... WTF!!! no columns, just hollow shafts. this is incredible.

then we see images of central columns in the base of the core that have been perfectly sliced at a 45% angle, precisely what the function of a cutter charge is, to make the column walk.

"pancake theory"... bends the rules of physics until it snaps. this is clearly not what could have happened.

"molten steel", if it wasn't, then what was it that was lingering at ground zero for weeks on end, emenating tremendous heat all this time after. i'd like to here your answer, coz either way it must be fucking hot. we've all seen it dripping, we've all seen its yelow/orange resplendant hue.

and as for the collapse time, was it a minute plus? no. end of. science proves that the collapse was not pancaking by dint of fire and plane damage. a load berring, steel framed building would have gone down fighting if this was the case. but she fell like a bitch on smack.

the list goes on, yet no plausable explaination has been served up by scientific fact. the conspiracy therorists ARE the people that revert to science and work with whats at their despense. conveniently the physical evidence is few and far between.


keep pushing
 
Damn, Reber, the guy did start this thread afterall. If you look back at his posts, he does say that he has been reading the NIST report.

"if ten men are stood in a line, and you're told the one 3rd from left has served time for multiple rape convictions, and then your informed a women was raped in the some village as this man lives last night and he was in that very village; who do you think it is morethanlikely commited that rape?"

Comparing 9/11 and rape isn't really a valid comparison and grossly oversimplifies the issue.

"history only knows truth. the administration need to prove their innocents... they have not and cannot."

In a democracy we're innocent until proven guilty - the burden of proof is on the accusors, thank god. The fact that you appraoch this in exactly the opposite way suggests that you're not viewing anything subjectively.

"where will your allegiance lie when Iran, Lybia, or Venezula feels the brunt of America's template of power extension? i guess we'll just wait and see."

Lybia? What are you talking about here? At any rate, you'll be waiting a long time because there's won't be any armed conflcts with the countries you name. The US gets a huge a chunk of its oil from Venezuela, we'd be screwed if we stopped their production for even a few weeks.

"and don't ask for the "proof" of this or the "proof" of that. we both know the solid eveidence that would expose the inside job was removed from the site... which began on september 11th."

Huh? We can't ask for proof now? It's very convenient for the conspiracy to blow off their total inability to offer any solid evidence by saying that the government took it all away. Once again, you're having it both ways here. Apparently the job was so incompitently performed that 13 year olds on the internet can see through the government's schemes, but in the same stroke the expertly covered up and removed all the physical evidence. Hmmm, so they're idiots and extremely efficient at the same time?

"the list goes on, yet no plausable explaination has been served up by scientific fact. the conspiracy therorists ARE the people that revert to science and work with whats at their despense. conveniently the physical evidence is few and far between."

I disagree, as you yourself have admitted conspiracies need read into coincidence to establish themselves. In the case of 9/11 the conspiracists infnore scientific facts and credible information and base their ideas around pure conjecture and often false information. It says a lot that not credible engineer or building collapse expert has come out and supported the controlled demolition theory. Conspiracy theorists ignore this as if it doesn't matter - but it does, a lot. Most people realize that, but they're not as emotionally invested in conspiracy ideas as the 9/11 'truthers.'

Your post brings up some of the requent conspiracy claims about the mechanics of the collapse, but you didn't address the things that iwant8inches brought up either.

Anyway, my original point was, the guy has expanded his ideas about what happened and is asking different types of questions. He doesn't see the evidence for cotnrolled demolition as being in any way solid or supported, but he does still see the possiblity that we don't everything about what happened that day. Why suggest he's buying into government propganda or missing the boat just because he interprets the facts differently from you?

Here's something funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kALg2VptE-g

Dennis Kucinich hanging out with a 9/11 conspiracist kid. Kucinich's comments, however, are on point. We need to look at the facts and be objective. There's a big difference between thoroughly investigating the matter and trying to build the case for a conspiracy - some people can't seem to make the distinction.
 
"Build a substantiated argument. Finding the "whole" truth in this case will require a more thorough and open investigation and you won't get anywhere but further from the truth espousing different theories some of which contradict the others."

This comment is dead on.

Following that line of thinking, would anybody care to offer a comprensive and complete timeline and description of this conspiracy and how it went down. It would necessarily include the planning of the attack by the government, the warnings to investors and elites and such, Larry Silverstein, the planting of the explosives, the use of missiles at the Pentagon and the msising plane, where the passengers from the planes really are, their phone calls, how the charges brought the buildings down and why this didn't happen like a normal demolition, and how the cover-up afterwards worked.

I'd just like to get a complete view of what some of the conspiracy believers think happened with 9/11. I feel that the rolling stone article makes some pretty solid points inbetween the humor, namely that conspiracists often can't offer a complete story for their ideas.
 
I wonder why the government doesn't sponsor a truly independant study and debate on 9/11. The only politician that I am aware of calling for an independant investigation is Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a man who knows the evils of government and why the founders created the Constitution.

It's hard to come out against the 9/11 Government Conspiracy Theory if you are a big-name person, because the media/everyone else immediately thinks "this guy is kookoo." When I bring up the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job, many people will just utterly refuse anything of the sort and label anyone who thinks so a "conspiracy theorist."

Oh, I LOVE SHEEP. Our media controls how we think, so sad. I hope in 30 years all those fools who don't see the danger of our governments won't be saying, "Wow, now that we're living in a total police state, I guess those guys back in the early 2000s WERE right after all."

Oh, and the Engineering graduates here still don't want to debate 9/11 with the "crazy truthers." Alex Jones and friends have exposed so much and debunked so many people/ideas that they know they'll lose. We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive. I say if you're not outraged at the government/corporate corruption going on, then you might want to reconsider your status as an "American."

This doesn't necessarily pertain to 9/11.
 
I hope you guys on the "other" side didn't get confused what I was posting about. You guys are not sheep, but a lot of people are in this world.

I wonder if you have seen the BBC 9/11 Documentary that just came out. I suggest you read this link from GlobalResearch about it, and how the media pressures people into dropping the 9/11 preplanned theory and makes "us" looks like nuts:

“9-11 The Conspiracy Files,” The BBC Joins the Ranks of the Untrustworthy United States Media

I love how the Popular Mechanics liers say they "saw a picture of WTC7 and how it was 'scooped out'." I guess we ARE second class citizens. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LUDACROUS. This is the stuff Reber and I talk about. How some "respected magazine" can get away with such bullshit.

Stridge, it seems that you are of the opinion that "until <whoever in government was involved> admits it, they are innocent." The facts are out there, they should already be tried for treason. THEY ARE GUILTY! I think personally you give too much credince to the rogue operations that parts of our governments are involved in. Although, I don't blame you, it took me years to finally come to the fact of what has/and is happening.
 
"I wonder why the government doesn't sponsor a truly independant study and debate on 9/11"

If the government sponsors it, how isn't somewhat under their control? Sometimes I don't think you guys would be happy unless the government gave your guru Alex Jones a check for millions of dollars and told him to have at it.

And, if it was investigated again, it would obviously include more private sector engineers (as was the case the first time), who have shown that they unanimously disagree with controlled demolition theories, so I imagine this exercise would be rather disappointing.

Most anything a person needs to know about 9/11 in order to investigate is publicly available now, and more information is being released once it has finished up in investigation all the time. The problem with the government sponsoring such things is that the money needs to come from somewhere, and beleive it or not a lot of people don't like the idea of spending a ton of cash to do the exact same thing twice in a row.

Rest assured, there are enough questions out there and enough standing interest in this that people will keep looking into it. After five years the conspiracists have failed to produce and real evidence of their claims, so things are looking a little grim for that standpoint, but all the same people are free to keep looking into the matter.

"It's hard to come out against the 9/11 Government Conspiracy Theory if you are a big-name person, because the media/everyone else immediately thinks "this guy is kookoo." When I bring up the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job, many people will just utterly refuse anything of the sort and label anyone who thinks so a "conspiracy theorist."

True about media personalities, but you're making an assumption that many of them (besides Charlie Sheen of course) feel there was a conspiracy but aren't saying so. We really don't know that.

The fact is, if you believe 9/11 was an inside job - then you believe in a conspiracy theory. The government plotting to murder thousands of its own citizens in an evil and hyper-elaborate scheme to strip us of all of our civl liberties (for no apparent reason) is most definately a conspiracy theory. People have every right to suggest you're a consiracy guy if you suggest that, and to most it sounds faily unreasonable, hence their negative reactions.

This doesn't mean they're dumb or close-minded, it simply means they take things differently than you and hold different burdens of proof. I know half the fun of being a conspiracist is feeling that everybody who doesn't believe in the conspiracy is just a moronic slave to the lies they're being fed, but trust, plenty of very smart people have looked at this stuff and reject it wholesale.

"Oh, I LOVE SHEEP. Our media controls how we think, so sad."

Sigh. See what I mean. And the media, get over this, please. The media controls your opinions if you let it - but surely you must realize that a good chunk of the media is just straight reporting. If the media says that it's snowing in Buffalo, then by god it probably is. If the media says that Bush is giving a press conference, then by god, I'll bet he is. If the media says a kid fell down a well somewhere, then dollars to donuts there's a kid in a well somewhere.

It's really simple for you guys to just say the media is evil and corrupt and controls everybody's minds because most of it is owned by big scary corporations. Please explain to me exactly how this works. In my opinion this is a really over-simplified and half-baked means of explanation. Demonizing the press at large (except for our beloved prisonplanet.com, which I wouldn't even qualify as actual journalism) is a pretty poor intellectualization of the problems that do exist within mainstream reportage and editorship.

"Wow, now that we're living in a total police state, I guess those guys back in the early 2000s WERE right after all."

Once again, you show you have no faith in everybody else in the country (I often felt the same in college, it's a fairly natural state of mind to possess when you're not old enough to even buy beer). You assume that the whole country is ready to roll over and abandon freedom at the first threat. Hey, you live in Texas, see all those fellas driving around in trucks with gun racks and confederate plates? I'll bet you green money they don't believe George Bush's government helped blow up the towers, but I'll also bet you that those guys aren't exactly thrilled about the idea of giving up all their civil liberties either. Ask one sometime.

Seriously, this whole 'police state' garbage line is part of the Alex Jones science fiction angle that makes the conspiracy stuff so interesting. Some horrible Orwellian scenario is fun to read about on the internet, but it seriously undererstimates the nature of the country and the integrity of its citizens. People aren't dumb and they aren't willing to fork over all of their freedoms, in fact most care about them deeply.

"Oh, and the Engineering graduates here still don't want to debate 9/11 with the "crazy truthers." Alex Jones and friends have exposed so much and debunked so many people/ideas that they know they'll lose."

Really? Have you asked any of them personally and had this response, as in "No sir! I will not debate Alex Jones, he's far to smart and capable and surely a disc jockey from Austin knows far more about engineering than I do, I'm terrified to debate the guy!" Not likely I'm guessing.

As I said before, has it ever occured to you that they just don't care, or that they'd rather not spend their free time getting jeered at by a room full of conspiracy fans? Honestly, for the average engineering kid (not usually the most out-going types), getting yelled at by a room full of rabidly devoted Alex Jones fans as they try to explain some dry building principles probably doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Try offering a handsome cash reward and promise to do everything you can to attract a mixed crowd if you want to draw some itnerest, but please don't assume you're rate based on somebody's unwillingness to do something very unpleasant for no good reason. Remember, most people don't care about this conspiracy stuff in the first place.

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

Oh good god man, this bothers me a little. Could you be any more full of yourself on this? This is one of the main attractions of the conspiracy world - you get to imagine that you're some rightous crusader against tyranny.

Seriously, what you are doing is not public service. What you're doing is a hobby. You want to contribute to liberty and help people? Turn town a lucrative job out of college like I did and go slave away at the ACLU defending civil liberties, go sign up for the peace corps and actually help some people, start training for Teach For America and help disadvantaged kids to compete with the privelaged classes, join the army, join a civil rights advocacy or a multi-cultural group. There are literally hundreds, maybe thousands of options for college students to positively get involved and help their fellow citizens and strengthen the country. Hell, even Greenpeace has an actually legit anti-corporate policy (all their stuff is based on bad things corporations actually do, not what conspiracists imagine they do, so you might not like it).

A couple of undergrads sitting around in somebody's dorm room and watching Alex Jones videos on a laptop and discussing conspiracy ideas is not crusading for liberty. C'mon man, don't try to portray your interests as being somehow more important or worthy than anybody elses. Without any solid evidence of this conspiracy and without any postitive public contribution and service, you guys might as well call playing Dungeons and Dragons fighting a great fight as well. Come to think of it, the two are pretty similar. D&D and 9/11 conspiracies are worlds of fantasy in which young males heavily immerse themselves. At least the D&D kids know it's not real, at least I think they do . . .
 
Pertaining to this link: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/250207Conspiracy.htm


More Prison Planet? Do you guys read anything else? Talk about media brainwashing - if you get all of your info from just one source that has a very clear agenda and bias, how can you feel that your knowledge base and opinions aren't directly under their influence?

Look, first of all the article is basically just rundown of the fact that they don't agree with anything in the documentary that suggests there isn't a conspiracy. Excuse me, but could they be anymore whiny? Did they expect it to be a mouthpiece for all of Alex Jones' ideas? Of course not, that would be a silly thing to expect, but Prison Planey felt compelled to right about it anway, which I assume is because they need to write about anything 9/11 conspiracy related in order to drum up material.

From the description in the article, it sounds like the documentary gave a lot more credence to conspiracy ideas than most things - although it tended to advocate the type that iwant8inches describe, which are far more legitimate claims than "controlled demolition" type muck, which is so easy to disprove that it probably wasn't of much interest to the filmmakers.

One of the many inept and stupid points in the article: The author complains that just before the title credits the screen card reads "The theories are only theories and are not proven to be true" or something to that effect. He feels this is a final slight against conspiracists and unfair.

Uh, actually, the whole point of a theory is that we don't know it to be true, it's just our best and most agreed upon explanation according to the evidence. For 9/11, the conspiracy theories aren't the best, most cohesive, or most agreed upon explanations, so they're actually being generous by describing them as theories.

and this one: http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/260207_bbc_bldg7.html

What a suprise, more stuff from Alex Jones! I'm shocked, really.

First of all, I can't seem to view the clip, and I don't understand why they don't stable link it. Regardless, there's no time on the clips, so I'd like to see it for myself. That being said, if the clip gets removed it will be because of copyright infringement, which BBC usually doesn't pursue, not because of some sinister intention.

Alex Jones is fairly clever like that: there's a possiblity the clip may not stick around on the internet, so why not suggest to your readers that this could be 'part of the conspiracy.' That way, if the clip does get removed for any reason whatsoever, you look brilliant and the idea of a conspiracy is enforced to your fans - if it's not removed, no har no foul. You've got repsect that level of insight on how to work your fan base.

"Although there is no clock on the footage, the source claims the report was given at 4:57pm EST, 23 minutes before Building 7 collapsed at 5:20pm. While the exact time of the report cannot be confirmed at present, it is clear from the footage that the reporter is describing the collapse of WTC 7 while it clearly remains standing behind her in the live shot."

Uh, yeah, liked I said, "the source claims." Funny how this is just cropping up now anways, but what I'd really like to confirm is if that's WT7 back there. I have no idea what it looks like from that distance and angle. The conspiracists have been wrong about dumber stuff than this.

"The fact that the BBC reported on the collapse of Building 7 over twenty minutes in advance of its implosion obviously provokes a myriad of questions as to how they knew it was about to come down when the official story says its collapse happened accidentally as a result of fire damage and debris weakening the building's structure."

Hey, I agree. Here's one interesting question - why the hell would some BBC America correspondent be given advance information about our government's murderous conspiracy to blow up the towers, and then be so ravingly stupid as to report the buildings collapse when it's standing right behind her? Anybody want to take a stab at that one? Doesn't make a ton of sense.

Alex Jones and his kind are having to turn to silly stuff like this because the physics and old evidence they used to try and pass off has been disproved time and again. They're left with more news footage from the day, where in this case they actually suggest that a reporter would be given advance knowledge of the collapse for absolutely no reason, and is then so stupid that she jumps the gun on the rest of the news media (are they in on it as well? that was some fine acting when they saw the buildings come down in that case) by ten minutes despite the fact that nobody else was reporting anything. To the average person, this is a very silly proposition - the conspiracist, it's a eureka moment. Grasping at straws is more like it.

"The Internet leader in activist media - Prison Planet.tv. Thousands of special reports, videos, MP3's, interviews, conferences, speeches, events, documentary films, books and more - all for just 15 cents a day!
Click here to subscribe!"

Just wanted to include the ad, which is feature several times embedded in the article. Alex Jones sure is a crusader for truth alright (and his own bank account). Hey, if the guy is such a saint, why not just take donations to pay for the website, or confirm that he donates all his profits to 9/11 families or something? Face it guys, he's making money off selling people the conspiracy info you crave.

"As we have documented before, firefighters, police and first responders were all told to get back from the building because it was about to be brought down. It is widely acknowledged by those who were there on the scene that warnings were issued for people to evacuate the area in anticipation of the building's collapse"

Yeah, three freakin' hours before the building came down - and tons of members of the NYFD have gone on record as stating that there was widespread belief amongst firefighters that had seen the building up close that the thing was going to collapse hours before it came down. If Alex Jones still believes that there was some kind of 'order' given because of the explosives, then all these men are liars. But whatever, he's just rehashing old points to add a few more paragraphs to the article (probably to distract from the lameness of the BBC reporter story).

"Many have speculated that some kind of press release was leaked too soon and AP wires, radio stations and TV news outlets prematurely reported on WTC 7's collapse."

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard (okay not the dumbest, but it's up there). Let's humor the article here: so the government knows the buildings are going to come down, and since it's happening in the heart of the financial capital of the planet and cultural capital of America, it is reasonable to assume that there will be news coverage. But, for some unknown reason, they decide to "leak" the news that WT7 is going to collapse, despite the fact that hundreds of news networks are filming all around it and many have predicted hours earlier that the building will come down because it was so heavily damaged and burning so intensely.

Once again, this make absolutely zero sense. What is the point of leaking it? Conspiracists don't know, and they don't care. They don't need rational explanations to believe what they do.

I'm still waiting for anybody to explain to me the full story of the conspiracy and exactly how everything before and after 9/11 went down. Doesn't need to be a novel, just sort of a walkthrough of everything you believe went on would suffice.
 
stridge said:
"I wonder why the government doesn't sponsor a truly independant study and debate on 9/11"

If the government sponsors it, how isn't somewhat under their control? Sometimes I don't think you guys would be happy unless the government gave your guru Alex Jones a check for millions of dollars and told him to have at it.

And, if it was investigated again, it would obviously include more private sector engineers (as was the case the first time), who have shown that they unanimously disagree with controlled demolition theories, so I imagine this exercise would be rather disappointing.

Most anything a person needs to know about 9/11 in order to investigate is publicly available now, and more information is being released once it has finished up in investigation all the time. The problem with the government sponsoring such things is that the money needs to come from somewhere, and beleive it or not a lot of people don't like the idea of spending a ton of cash to do the exact same thing twice in a row.

Rest assured, there are enough questions out there and enough standing interest in this that people will keep looking into it. After five years the conspiracists have failed to produce and real evidence of their claims, so things are looking a little grim for that standpoint, but all the same people are free to keep looking into the matter.

"It's hard to come out against the 9/11 Government Conspiracy Theory if you are a big-name person, because the media/everyone else immediately thinks "this guy is kookoo." When I bring up the possibility of 9/11 being an inside job, many people will just utterly refuse anything of the sort and label anyone who thinks so a "conspiracy theorist."

True about media personalities, but you're making an assumption that many of them (besides Charlie Sheen of course) feel there was a conspiracy but aren't saying so. We really don't know that.

The fact is, if you believe 9/11 was an inside job - then you believe in a conspiracy theory. The government plotting to murder thousands of its own citizens in an evil and hyper-elaborate scheme to strip us of all of our civl liberties (for no apparent reason) is most definately a conspiracy theory. People have every right to suggest you're a consiracy guy if you suggest that, and to most it sounds faily unreasonable, hence their negative reactions.

This doesn't mean they're dumb or close-minded, it simply means they take things differently than you and hold different burdens of proof. I know half the fun of being a conspiracist is feeling that everybody who doesn't believe in the conspiracy is just a moronic slave to the lies they're being fed, but trust, plenty of very smart people have looked at this stuff and reject it wholesale.

"Oh, I LOVE SHEEP. Our media controls how we think, so sad."

Sigh. See what I mean. And the media, get over this, please. The media controls your opinions if you let it - but surely you must realize that a good chunk of the media is just straight reporting. If the media says that it's snowing in Buffalo, then by god it probably is. If the media says that Bush is giving a press conference, then by god, I'll bet he is. If the media says a kid fell down a well somewhere, then dollars to donuts there's a kid in a well somewhere.

It's really simple for you guys to just say the media is evil and corrupt and controls everybody's minds because most of it is owned by big scary corporations. Please explain to me exactly how this works. In my opinion this is a really over-simplified and half-baked means of explanation. Demonizing the press at large (except for our beloved prisonplanet.com, which I wouldn't even qualify as actual journalism) is a pretty poor intellectualization of the problems that do exist within mainstream reportage and editorship.

"Wow, now that we're living in a total police state, I guess those guys back in the early 2000s WERE right after all."

Once again, you show you have no faith in everybody else in the country (I often felt the same in college, it's a fairly natural state of mind to possess when you're not old enough to even buy beer). You assume that the whole country is ready to roll over and abandon freedom at the first threat. Hey, you live in Texas, see all those fellas driving around in trucks with gun racks and confederate plates? I'll bet you green money they don't believe George Bush's government helped blow up the towers, but I'll also bet you that those guys aren't exactly thrilled about the idea of giving up all their civil liberties either. Ask one sometime.

Seriously, this whole 'police state' garbage line is part of the Alex Jones science fiction angle that makes the conspiracy stuff so interesting. Some horrible Orwellian scenario is fun to read about on the internet, but it seriously undererstimates the nature of the country and the integrity of its citizens. People aren't dumb and they aren't willing to fork over all of their freedoms, in fact most care about them deeply.

"Oh, and the Engineering graduates here still don't want to debate 9/11 with the "crazy truthers." Alex Jones and friends have exposed so much and debunked so many people/ideas that they know they'll lose."

Really? Have you asked any of them personally and had this response, as in "No sir! I will not debate Alex Jones, he's far to smart and capable and surely a disc jockey from Austin knows far more about engineering than I do, I'm terrified to debate the guy!" Not likely I'm guessing.

As I said before, has it ever occured to you that they just don't care, or that they'd rather not spend their free time getting jeered at by a room full of conspiracy fans? Honestly, for the average engineering kid (not usually the most out-going types), getting yelled at by a room full of rabidly devoted Alex Jones fans as they try to explain some dry building principles probably doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Try offering a handsome cash reward and promise to do everything you can to attract a mixed crowd if you want to draw some itnerest, but please don't assume you're rate based on somebody's unwillingness to do something very unpleasant for no good reason. Remember, most people don't care about this conspiracy stuff in the first place.

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

Oh good god man, this bothers me a little. Could you be any more full of yourself on this? This is one of the main attractions of the conspiracy world - you get to imagine that you're some rightous crusader against tyranny.

Seriously, what you are doing is not public service. What you're doing is a hobby. You want to contribute to liberty and help people? Turn town a lucrative job out of college like I did and go slave away at the ACLU defending civil liberties, go sign up for the peace corps and actually help some people, start training for Teach For America and help disadvantaged kids to compete with the privelaged classes, join the army, join a civil rights advocacy or a multi-cultural group. There are literally hundreds, maybe thousands of options for college students to positively get involved and help their fellow citizens and strengthen the country. Hell, even Greenpeace has an actually legit anti-corporate policy (all their stuff is based on bad things corporations actually do, not what conspiracists imagine they do, so you might not like it).

A couple of undergrads sitting around in somebody's dorm room and watching Alex Jones videos on a laptop and discussing conspiracy ideas is not crusading for liberty. C'mon man, don't try to portray your interests as being somehow more important or worthy than anybody elses. Without any solid evidence of this conspiracy and without any postitive public contribution and service, you guys might as well call playing Dungeons and Dragons fighting a great fight as well. Come to think of it, the two are pretty similar. D&D and 9/11 conspiracies are worlds of fantasy in which young males heavily immerse themselves. At least the D&D kids know it's not real, at least I think they do . . .

On a quick note, I'm glad you know exactly how I am and how I am so full of myself for actually giving a damn about the world around me.

If you deny that the world is getting more Orweillian, then you are simply a blind fool.

I don't know how many things need to be shown that some parts of the government/corporations are bad.

You, sir, live in a fantasy world, where there aren't people in power that want to see people living like slaves as they live in luxury and are willing to do just about anything to control others. Some people are just sick in this world, and oftentimes, those people are attracted to positions of perceived power (government, police, etc). Just some food for thought.
 
10inch,

"On a quick note, I'm glad you know exactly how I am and how I am so full of myself for actually giving a damn about the world around me."

Um, here's what you said before that:

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

You helped liberty stay alive? You fought a great fight? Really? What have you done, how are you 'helping liberty stay alive?' No offense man, but I tore into you because this is the most self-agrandizing statement I've read in a long while. Like I said, don't convince yourself into thinking that your hobby is somehow benefitting the rest of the world. If you want to help out, go do something that affects other people or the community in a positive - don't tell me that reading Alex Jones and talking about his stuff with your buddies is "defending liberty." If you give a damn, do something serious with tangible results, I made quite a few suggestions to get you started.

"If you deny that the world is getting more Orweillian, then you are simply a blind fool."

Exactly as I mentioned in my post - if you don't agree with a conspiracy theorist than you're a retarded plebian marching towards the gallows with a bug grin on your face. Thanks for verifying my comments so clearly.

"I don't know how many things need to be shown that some parts of the government/corporations are bad."

Mmm, who ever disagreed with this? Like I said, I'm a lifelong Democrat - I've worked for the Democratic Party, the ACLU, and done pro-bono work for the NAACP, as well as worked and volunteered on numerous Democratic campaigns, and I've even met good old Ralph Nader - and I also work for a big mean old multi-national. I know very well what happens in the corporate world, and I know very well what goes on in government, good and bad. I've been around both extensively, and I've never denied their failings. What I have denied is what you claim - which is that they're systematically working together to enslave the planet for some reason.

I get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs.

"You, sir, live in a fantasy world, where there aren't people in power that want to see people living like slaves as they live in luxury and are willing to do just about anything to control others."

Really? Because there's a lot of evidence to show that my world is the real one and yours is a conspiracy fantasy. There's horrendous human slavery in this world, but it has nothing to do with microchips or illuminati. It's the same kind of human brutality that has plagued us since the dawn of time - fortunately there's less in the world today than there ever has been at any point in history. There's still a long ways to go in some parts of the world, but I digress, because this isn't what you're talking about.

"Some people are just sick in this world, and oftentimes, those people are attracted to positions of perceived power (government, police, etc). Just some food for thought."

Uh, so then there can't be any good and honest people that enter public service because they believe in it? Trust me buddy, it's easy to believe that the government is controlled by a bunch of greedy psychopaths when you're sitting there in your dorm room, but how can you really say this without having spent any time around government? From what I can tell, you barely know anything about it yet you're totally convinced it's filled with evil people bent on manipulating and dominating everybody else. This is a sci-fi fantasy masquerading as a worldview.

If you really beleive the government is so wicked, emmigrate to a new nation, continue your education there. It's actually not very difficult - Australia would be a great choice. Or better yet, if you believe in this stuff so passionately then write, research, write letters, donate, start a newsletter - put in some work.

Conspiracists believe that the world is headed off a cliff at a hundred miles an hour, but their only reaction seems to be griping about it online and reading prison planet. If you guys really think the end is near, what are you doing to prepare/counter the government's plot to get you?

Still waiting for that comprehensive explanation on 9/11 as well, anybody?
 
"Still waiting for that comprehensive explanation on 9/11 as well, anybody?"

likewise my good friend, then we can all go to bed... i don't know what exactly went down on 9/11 and prior to that historic day. evidence to destroy my speculations and conspiracy theories resides under lock and key, and may never be released to the public domain.

the starting block here is the moment when the first plane struck the trade centre, so lets begin there.

it'll take 3 minutes to read this link:
Why No Norad On 911? RENSE document(YES! "conspiracy" is their bread & butter) additionally, why hasn't a single black box recorder been recovered from any of the air craft? they are durable beyond belief, and only seldom get recovered when a plane crashes at sea.

here you can find one of the most comprehensive catalogues of 9/11 pics on the net(to my knowledge) Gallery when talking pentagon, can you see even a trace of remnants of a boeing 737 plane? or the associated visual impact evidence on the wall of the pentagon? study them, theres many, many photo's. also, whilst the fire crews battle the blazes in their infancy, can you see the flood of ambulances you'd predict you'd see, since they would have been expecting passengers aboard a plan wouldn't they... its the weirdest "plane crash" and "rescue effort" ive ever wittnessed.

"get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs."

i haven't had to pay for anything. its all free.

"Uh, so then there can't be any good and honest people that enter public service because they believe in it? Trust me buddy, it's easy to believe that the government is controlled by a bunch of greedy psychopaths when you're sitting there in your dorm room, but how can you really say this without having spent any time around government? From what I can tell, you barely know anything about it yet you're totally convinced it's filled with evil people bent on manipulating and dominating everybody else. This is a sci-fi fantasy masquerading as a worldview."

i don't think anyone here, no matter what table they eat at, thinks that everybody is corrupt... thats absurd.
as ive said before i believe that almost, if not all big money is corrupt. its the steriod effect.
also, as ive voiced many times here and in my everyday life, the people that print the money control the world, they always have done and always will do. ultimately the blame lays with the Crown, but the federal reserve is closer to home for you guys... lacerate me at will, but if you can't see that your national debt will inevitably fold your nation sooner rather than later, then there is no car we can both drive.
the banking cartel thats illegally ringing america dry and has been for decades, throws the punches. if 9/11 isn't their template, sure as hell they green lighted it.

Leading Bin Laden expert goes on record as saying the tapes are fake. he joins many others.
Top Bin Laden Expert: Confession Fake | 911Blogger.com

and Stridge, when you're inside something the hardest thing to do is see the outside.


keep pushing
 
stridge said:
10inch,

"On a quick note, I'm glad you know exactly how I am and how I am so full of myself for actually giving a damn about the world around me."

Um, here's what you said before that:

"We are fighting a great fight, and I'm glad that I will go out knowing that I helped Liberty stay alive."

You helped liberty stay alive? You fought a great fight? Really? What have you done, how are you 'helping liberty stay alive?' No offense man, but I tore into you because this is the most self-agrandizing statement I've read in a long while. Like I said, don't convince yourself into thinking that your hobby is somehow benefitting the rest of the world. If you want to help out, go do something that affects other people or the community in a positive - don't tell me that reading Alex Jones and talking about his stuff with your buddies is "defending liberty." If you give a damn, do something serious with tangible results, I made quite a few suggestions to get you started.

Yes, I am. I am involved in a student organization to help spread the word about corrupt practices in our governments. The greatest thing I do for Love to spread on this earth is by meditating. It is the greatest thing one can do, channeling Source energy on this Earth. This is having a profound impact, which people who don't meditate don't really realize. So yes, I DO do things with serious tangible results.

stridge said:
"If you deny that the world is getting more Orweillian, then you are simply a blind fool."

Exactly as I mentioned in my post - if you don't agree with a conspiracy theorist than you're a retarded plebian marching towards the gallows with a bug grin on your face. Thanks for verifying my comments so clearly.

Oh really, we aren't losing our liberties? Governments aren't trying to push scary control measures on us? German cops and spooks prep own spyware

That's just one small example. How about the mandatory vaccinations they are trying to push on Texas school girls now?

stridge said:
"I don't know how many things need to be shown that some parts of the government/corporations are bad."

Mmm, who ever disagreed with this? Like I said, I'm a lifelong Democrat - I've worked for the Democratic Party, the ACLU, and done pro-bono work for the NAACP, as well as worked and volunteered on numerous Democratic campaigns, and I've even met good old Ralph Nader - and I also work for a big mean old multi-national. I know very well what happens in the corporate world, and I know very well what goes on in government, good and bad. I've been around both extensively, and I've never denied their failings. What I have denied is what you claim - which is that they're systematically working together to enslave the planet for some reason.

I get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs.

I never said corporations and the government as a whole are working together to enslave the planet. I said some rogue factions wish to do this. Again, you want to sensationalize your own misinformation to make yourself feel better, which is often what people try to do against those with unpopular stances.

You need to stop sensationalizing all of these things, stridge. You are the biggest elitist-apologist I have EVER seen on any forum. Jesus Christ, I guess it'd take someone in-the-know to actually come out and admit it before you ever accepted anything Orweillian is being put into place.

You apologists will keep on whining and moaning, saying there is nothing to worry about, etc, but you must understand that authoritarian movements need to establish their bases well before they plan to put their plan into effect. It starts with small steps, but it eventually builds into a huge force, with the people not realizing because small rights and liberties are taken away one at a time.

Oops, CNN reported Building 7 was coming down an hour before it did, oh no!
BOMBSHELL: 9/11 COVER-UP UNRAVELING
 
Alright, we've kind of devolved into bitching about totally unrelated topics here, but to address all the comments:

"Yes, I am. I am involved in a student organization to help spread the word about corrupt practices in our governments. The greatest thing I do for Love to spread on this earth is by meditating. It is the greatest thing one can do, channeling Source energy on this Earth. This is having a profound impact, which people who don't meditate don't really realize. So yes, I DO do things with serious tangible results."

That's nice that you're involved with an organization, but what do you guys do? And frankly, since I think conspiracy theories are pretty useless, I have a hard time accepting that as public service so much as you indulging your interests with other students. If there was a campus group that tried to spread the word about sea monsters because they really beleived in them, I doubt you'd find their activities to be altruistic and beneficial for the greater community.

And, while meditation is a fine activity, you are once again trying to pass of your hobby as something that definately benefits the rest of the world. I won't argue metaphysical points about "source energy" or whatever here, but if you go build some houses with Habitat For Humanity next weekend, then spend the whole next one meditating, guess which weekend will have made the world better? Or better yet, try listing 'meditation' and '9/11 truth movement' on a resume or application under community service and see how far you get.

Honestly, the two things you list don't produce any "serious tangible results." Look up tangible in the dictionary and I think you'll agree.

I'm not lecturing you for not choosing to engage in pulbic service, that's everybody's own choice in our society. What I don't like is people passing off what their recreation as some sort activity that seriously benefits the rest of the world when there are people that actually do get out and work hard to make an impact.

"Oh really, we aren't losing our liberties? Governments aren't trying to push scary control measures on us?"

I remind myself that many people are young when I read comments like this. Show me a government in the world that hasn't undulated between more liberty and mroe control, more freedom and more security. This has been one of, if not the most principle questions in political philosophy since its creation. Some factions push for increased control and the percieved stability and safety this creates, others advocate total liberty and lack of oversight as they feel tyranny is the more potent threat. Governments have pushed for increased control since they were created, and in liberal democracies like ours, the people push back.

There are hundreds if not thousands of books on these topics - I don't know how you can present one news item about some fairly unsupportable secuirty measure in Germany and suggest that it's an inidcator of a greater and more ominous global trend. The debate is far more nuanced and interesting than "evil governments want our liberty, only people that believe in conspiracies and read 'info wars' are doing anything about it. C'mon man, it lowers the level of debate when you make broad generalizations like that.

For every news item you could find about some creepy secuirty crackdown, I could find one about civil liberties and freedom being defended by governments, private groups, and votes by the public. You only look at one side of this issue, and so your view is distorted.

"How about the mandatory vaccinations they are trying to push on Texas school girls now?"

Yeah, I believe for HPV (genital warts). A new study just revealed that nearly a third of women between the ages of 19-24 now carry HPV in the US - that's a problem, as HPV is a primary cause of cervical cancer in women and most never even know that they carry the virus.

Yep, simple vaccinations for serious health risks are pretty scary - sort of like those terrifying laws stipulating how you have to get vaccinated against tetnus and TB before going to public schools - that was some freaky stuff alright. Manditory vaccinations wiped out horrible things like polo, but I'm off track. Try reading some papers on healthcare policy and the real debate over manditory vaccinations before you assume there's some kind of sinister purpose behind it all. And keep lots of condoms around - 1/3 is a shitload of girls and you can catch it too.

"I never said corporations and the government as a whole are working together to enslave the planet. I said some rogue factions wish to do this."

Well, from your comments, it's a little hard to tell what you believe sometimes. For instance, you have repeatedly said that you believe that all mainstream media is corrupt and intentionally manipulates information for some nefarious purpose and so can't be trusted - to me, this would need to be a univeral conspiracy amongst corporations just on the logisitical level.

But since you have made your opinions more specific, what factions do you believe are trying to enslave the planet, and why exactly do they want to do this? Is 9/11 involved with these rogue factions or not? If these so-called rogues are powerful enough that you're actually afraid they are on the path to success, are they really rogues? Enslaving the human race under an iron boot a la 1984 is a difficult feat to accomplish when you really think about it - these must be some pretty major players. If they are rogues, are the good elements of the government and corporate worlds going to work to stop them? How could they not be aware of their activities, and shouldn't they be obligated to prevent their evil rise to power? Just a few basic questions about the nature of your claims, answer as you wish.

"Again, you want to sensationalize your own misinformation to make yourself feel better, which is often what people try to do against those with unpopular stances."

Please clarify how I sensationalize, and also what kind of misinformation I have presented. I don't believe that anything I've said on here has been untrue or deliberately deceptive, so careful with the labeling. And I'm really not doing anything to make myself feel better - in fact, I think I may have helped convince the original poster of this thread that the controlled demolition theories and government callusion on 9/11 are completely ridiculous, so I'm actually fairly pleased with how the debate turned out. And finally, your stances aren't that unpopular. For instance, that BBC video you all linked a ways back is currently one of the most viewed things on internet video sites, and movies like Loose Change have been independently viewd tens of millions of times according to their producers and viewing statistics. Widespread mistrust and fear is actually pretty common, and perhaps even healthy. Using obscenely low standards for forensic evidence and only exposing yourself to information that originates from a clearly biased source (that is itself a thriving cottage industry) is not healthy.

"You are the biggest elitist-apologist I have EVER seen on any forum."

Wow - you should meet my friends and family. Or like I said, go talk to some of your fellow Texans. I don't apologize univerally for the elites, but I will make the case that you seem to know very little about the interworkings of government and industry or even know the basic issues involved, beyond what you read from the various Alex Jones websites. I don't really understand how you can be so univerally opposed to something with such a small knowledge and experience base.

I have repeatedly acknowledged that many bad things can and do happen when it comes to human institutions - government and corporate. Horrible things have happened, did happen, may still happen. As I've said, much less so now that at most points in our history, but the potential remains. The fact that I don't univerally condemn everything governments and corporations do doesn't really make me a raging apologist - it actually just means that I'm objective on the matter, because it's the truth.

And, if you do want an apologist argument in favor of corporations and governments, consider that there is always the possiblity for corruption and tyrany under any government, and that's just the risk we take under the social contract. The potential for domination always exists, and democracy assumes that we as a people are resistant to this idea (and even so, our own government was basically molded out of the fear of tyranny and safeguarding against it, all the while rejecting the idea that anybody but the educated elite should actually be involved in government - bit of a contradiction eh?). That the fact that it could happen is a given, but this doesn't mean that it is happening. All the illuminati hogwash just distracts from the real assaults on our government's integrity and our freedoms.

And corporations, for all their problems, make your life and the life of everybody you know possible. Like the computer you're using? The energy powering it? The car you drove to go buy it? Like that you can buy jeans for under $300? Like that you can go buy cheap food close to where you live without fear of disease? Welcome to the wonderful world of massive commerce and corporate production. You might not like corporations and feel that they're somehow enslaving us, but at the same moment you're pretty much in their backpocket with your lifestyle, so that's at least something to think about. Go read about the debates on the free market and corporate regulation. Corproate excess and abuse is bad and regulating them is good, but so is having a free market and alrge economic enterprises that are profit motivated. There is a balance, and that's what most of us look for. But as I said, unless you want to adopt an anarcho-primitivist philosphy similar to the unabomber's, you're basically latently endorsing the corporate world with your lifestyle, so didn't get too high and mighty on the subject. I could suggest that anytime you switch on the lights you're a silent apologist for the conventions of the corporate world.

"Jesus Christ, I guess it'd take someone in-the-know to actually come out and admit it before you ever accepted anything Orweillian is being put into place."

Gracious, I love George Orwell, hate to see him bandied about like he is (particualrly in college, good lord that was bad). You know what Orwell hated? Totalitarianism. I don't even want to discuss him here, but suffice to say that Orwell's writing were comments on Stalinism and Nazism (and occasionally British colonialism), and the philosophical musing of what happens if we don't vigorously reject the intellectual justifications for those governments. He was commenting on history as much as potential, and while I may doubt that George Orwell would have been immediately pleased withe everything he saw in the modern world, he wouldn't have necessarily labeled things as headed for disaster either. The preponderance of liberal democracies as the most popular model of government would particularly be an encouraging sign. Anyway, the term 'Orwellian' can be applied to quite a few things, so lets not start tossing it around as some kind of faux-literary qualifier for out ideas. I believe I used for levity, let's not pretend it adds weight to what we say.

"You apologists will keep on whining and moaning, saying there is nothing to worry about, etc, but you must understand that authoritarian movements need to establish their bases well before they plan to put their plan into effect."

How am I whining and moaning? I'm just defending a viewpoint, you guys are the ones railing against the world here. I have many complaints, but none of them save for my dislike of suggesting that our own government hatched 9/11 have been discussed here. Gosh you're doing a lot of labeling and midrepresenting for a person that claims to be most interested in truth and transparency.

That's toungue in cheek of course, but to comment on authoritarian movements - let's see, China, Russia, Germany, how long were the largest authoritarian movements in recent history planned? Not all that long at all if you take a look at them. More interestingly, they were didn't exactly come about from collaboration between governments and big money - in fact existing governments and big money hate it when the status quo gets destroyed, not so good for business. Basically, there is no historical example for the kind of conspiracy that you all describe, at least that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure how you can make that statement.

People have been talking about this illuminati crap forever, and nothing has ever come to pass. That hasn't stopped conspiracists from suggesting that most significant world events (at least the one's they're aware of, funny how major events elsewhere on earth, where there are also plenty of powerful people rarely get placed within the conspiracy paradigm) are just ongoing signs that the takeover is coming. This is fairly easy to do - in fact people do the same thing with competint conspiracies regarding space aliens, satanic cults, pretty much whatever you want. The point is, none of it is coherent, supported, or not disputed by tons of real world information.

Pointing out the grossly inconcistent, illogical, unsubstantiated, misinformed nature of the conspiracy world view isn't really the equivelant of acting as a 'whining apologist,' it's simply pointing out facts.

The fact that conspiracists try to frame the argument as a general 'us versus them' debate where everybody that points out the serious errors and assumptive nature of their reasoning is apologizing for evil forces is indicative of the simplistic and ill informed tendencies in most of their arguments.

"It starts with small steps, but it eventually builds into a huge force, with the people not realizing because small rights and liberties are taken away one at a time."

So yeah, tell me how it's going to work, and why the people of the world are just going to take it without a pause. Explain how this being planned, who's up to the planning - or you could start be answering my request to do the same for 9/11, which is afterall the topic of the thread. I'm curous to hear what you guys think about this stuff in some specifics - not what Alex Jones and other website authors have variously written - I want to hear what some average conspiracy theorists think is going on.

"Oops, CNN reported Building 7 was coming down an hour before it did, oh no!"

Wow, amazing, I just changed my mind about everything - that's the smoking gun right there. So now that we know that the government planned the whole thing, why do you think they told a CNN field reported in advance that they were going to blow up WT7 at a certain time? Man, that reporter is almost as dumb as the BBC reporter that the 9/11 planners warned in advance as well. I'm going to write both of them a letter, because I'm pissed they didn't try to warn anybody about 9/11, since they knew in advance in everything. Those are some seriously bad people right there.

Sorry, had to be a little flippant on that one. That video, by the way, is also currently one of the most viewed online - interestingly the world doesn't seem to flaring with outrage. This means one of two things: A) We're all passive sheep, just as you've stated on this thread, and only conspiracy theorists that spend a lot of time on the internet can see the forest for the trees, or B) Most people interested in 9/11 conspiracies are on the internet a lot and mailing those videos around all over the place because they're really excited about it. Meanwhile the rest of the world isn't burning up without outrage because they see nothing particularly significant or damning in the video and realize that the conspirators tipping off random CNN field reporters an hour before the building collapsed is pretty damn silly.
 
Reber187 said:
you have shifted your opinion and thats your decision based on the evidence you've been exposed to.

i ask you this, have you read the NIST report?

if you have read it, im sure you'll agree that it does NOT explain, prove, evident, how the buildings collapsed... it hypothizes. if thats fact for you and who ever else wishes to deem it so then good for you... i ain't for me.

"I mean it's good to link videos of interest, but really that isn't proof of anything to do with 9/11 and that's the subject of this thread. peace.

your faith in government and the elite is beyond me.

if ten men are stood in a line, and you're told the one 3rd from left has served time for multiple rape convictions, and then your informed a women was raped in the some village as this man lives last night and he was in that very village; who do you think it is morethanlikely commited that rape?

history only knows truth. the administration need to prove their innocents... they have not and cannot.

where will your allegiance lie when Iran, Lybia, or Venezula feels the brunt of America's template of power extension? i guess we'll just wait and see.

and don't ask for the "proof" of this or the "proof" of that. we both know the solid eveidence that would expose the inside job was removed from the site... which began on september 11th.
is it not a federal offence to tamper with a crime scene? FUCK NO, not for 9/11, coz the rules were suspended for 9/11... fuck it, we'll even suspend the rules of gravity, why not... how about we break all the rules and then tell 'em what to think.

how can you swallow this shit? how can you swallow "offical" reports, studies, etc that lie and distort fact? NIST wrote that there were no central columns in the trade centres core... WTF!!! no columns, just hollow shafts. this is incredible.

then we see images of central columns in the base of the core that have been perfectly sliced at a 45% angle, precisely what the function of a cutter charge is, to make the column walk.

"pancake theory"... bends the rules of physics until it snaps. this is clearly not what could have happened.

"molten steel", if it wasn't, then what was it that was lingering at ground zero for weeks on end, emenating tremendous heat all this time after. i'd like to here your answer, coz either way it must be fucking hot. we've all seen it dripping, we've all seen its yelow/orange resplendant hue.

and as for the collapse time, was it a minute plus? no. end of. science proves that the collapse was not pancaking by dint of fire and plane damage. a load berring, steel framed building would have gone down fighting if this was the case. but she fell like a bitch on smack.

the list goes on, yet no plausable explaination has been served up by scientific fact. the conspiracy therorists ARE the people that revert to science and work with whats at their despense. conveniently the physical evidence is few and far between.


keep pushing

I don’t think you read my post.

I’ve stated that I don’t agree with the NIST’s conclusions because their physical tests appear to contradict their computer simulations where they essentially doubled the parameters to simulate the conditions of the buildings along with the duration they were exposed to the fires. The NIST couldn't find any steel hotter than 1112 F, and 98% of their steel samples were under 500F.

So, just because I find fault in the plausibility in arguing that explosives were used to bring down the buildings makes me “one of them” or an official liner who only bows to the elites? This is not very conducive to a good discussion.

I think that the use of thermate is about as fair of a hypothesis as there is, but the burden of proof is on anyone who claims its veracity. Where is the proof? I am extremely angered by the way the evidence of the crime committed that day was handled. 9/11 was unprecedented and the single most devastating tragedy to hit this country and AT LEAST that part of the “investigation” was handled horribly. There is plenty reason to be suspicious there. That said I am nearly as angry at the people who make films filled with distortions and misrepresentations of facts and other information to build an argument. I feel sick for being duped into believing some of the things I did at first. Just be honest. I cannot stand being lied to, but it's usually not because someone lied to me. It's that I believed them when I could have found out for myself.

And your point about not needing proof doesn’t make sense. What are you going to do then? Go into a courtroom and represent the people in this case with what the movement has and it’d be the saddest sight quite possibly ever. I don’t need proof of anything because do not hypothesize what “actually” happened. I’d like to see a better investigation into this, but I feel that right now the best route to pursue is to reprehend those directly responsible for knowingly (which will be difficult to prove on its own) giving false information and make certain that if another disaster occurs the crime scene isn’t destroyed until all facts are known.

And what is it that makes you think that the laws of gravity were suspended that day? It took me until I read the NIST report that the official time of the collapses for WTC 1 and 2 are not known exactly, but instead of the free fall speed the times that are actually accepted is around 16 seconds.

I’m just asking for some cleaning up. Some theories out there make it impossible for another to be possible so I just take that as someone not knowing the available facts that have been verified and supported within the academic/scientific communities.

To be clear though I started this thread with questions about what people thought of the 9/11 Mysteries movie. I recently sort got on the bad side of some local “truthers” because I brought up some of the stuff found on debunking sites and they automatically dismissed it without providing an actual reason. It seems that there are more truthers out there that just want to affirm their own beliefs/biases. I didn’t switch “sides.”

Personally, I find that what 10inchadvantage is doing along with PNACitizen(UT Austin?? Isnn’t it?) is good so as long as the debate stays within reason. I’d like to know if he had any inside track as to putting together a public discussion in Columbus, OH. I’m out for the truth as well, but I do not have all the answers. Let’s get rid of the distorted facts wherever they originate.
 
iwant8inches -

i did just write that your "opinion" has shifted, because i read(at least i believe it was you) that you now want solid proof. i commented that this is indeed a remarkable ask since the crime scene was grossly tampered with almost before the dust had settled... a federal offence.

i now fully understand your stance on the matter.

and just for the record i don't bracket those who believe one thing opposed to another.


keep pushing
 
I think I need to just stop posting here. Some people just don't understand True Freedom, the freedom of not having to get their animals RFID chipped, the freedom of not having to take ANY vaccines, the freedom of being a pure human being (pure water, no flouride in water). There are many other hugely corrupt things that have happened, like the Bushes working with the Nazis.

I have gotten really frustrated with all of this stuff. Some people just don't accept that there are sick people just like Hitler incarnated on this planet. Some people don't realize the value of some actions.

Very spiritual people say some weird things, act weird too, but I think I can better understand the great saints and the Buddha himself, which I shall quote, "He who has seen both the Void and Nirvana is very hard to understand."

In my own spiritual quests I have seen things that no one else around me realizes. People have to take LSD and stuff like that to get a grasp of it, and even then drugs are full of confusion.

This thread is getting me nowhere and is just bad for my own mental clarity. All I have to say is Stridge repeatedly uses ad hominem attacks against me just because I am "young and stupid (lack wisdom, haven't 'seen the world')." Well, Stridge, I'm sure you're just a genius old man then who has some great wisdom. Stridge, you're also a "coincidence theorist."

9/11 Truth is getting even more help, and the truth is coming out thanks to BBC now and others. The movement is looking good, and I will be there to support the uncovering of corruption and truth until humanity becomes spiritual.

Clearly, some people just will never accept the fact that governments have and will kill their own people just for their own advantage. It took me over three years to come to that fact, but I am glad I have seen it.
 
10inchadvantage,

Sorry if you feel I've used ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure where I've done so, but I wouldn't say anything I've said has actually been an attack. I've criticized, affected sarcasm, things of that nature, but I don't think that it's in anyway fair to dismiss all my comments in this fashion.

If you choose not to take the time or interest to respond to specific points, that's completely fine, but it's not very cool to cut some excuse about it and suggest that I'm making personal attacks on you. Here's the most critical thing I'll ever say to you on this thread or any other - that's immature bullshit and excuse-making.

It is true that I have suggested that you are young and not very well informed on certain topics. We certainly know that you are young, I believe a fresHydromaxan in college judging from your other comments, and I have repeatedly stated that it appears to me that you are not very well informed about history, economics, political science, nor are you very well read on some of these topics. Now, I assume this based on your tendency to draw very broad and general conclusions about very complicated issues and events, often only siting conspiracy websites as definitive evidence. But, I have taken care to point out that this is just how it appears to me. There is a difference between this and simply calling you "stupid," which I have never done.

The fact that you would so grossly mischracterize my comments and falsley suggest that I've called you stupid at anytime doesn't lend a lot of credibility to what you have to say, so I don't feel bad for my above comments about excuse-making and such. Grow up, man.

"Some people just don't understand True Freedom, the freedom of not having to get their animals RFID chipped, the freedom of not having to take ANY vaccines, the freedom of being a pure human being (pure water, no flouride in water). There are many other hugely corrupt things that have happened, like the Bushes working with the Nazis."

I assume this is referring to me since I'm the only talking to you, so I'll just briefly address it. In short, I think you're wrong. I do actually understand freedom and the sacrifices made for it quite well, and I also know that the maintenence of a free society and the preservation of a liberal ideal are not always black and white tasks with clearly defined paths to success. I turned down a very lucrative position and held off grad school straight out of undergrad to work for peanuts at the ACLU - who work very hard to protect your civil liberties, and I liked it so much that I stuck around for three years. What have you ever done? Please don't tell me I don't know about freedom.

It is comments like these that betray the conspiracy mindset, which is that nobody knows anything if they don't agree with you (another example would be frequently referring to people that don't agree with you as sheep). Just because I don't think what you believe is accurate doesn't mean that I don't understand freedom. This is once again simplifying a very complicated topic to a criminal degree.

By the way, chlorine in the water helps people maintain dental health, especially poor people taht can't afford dental care, and we all know about the Bush's and war profiteering. What that has do with the state of our liberty now, I really don't know. Braun corporation used to make the ovens for the Jews (my European ancestors by the way), so I guess if you've ever had a cup of coffee made in one of their machines then you're undermining the human cause as well? Obviously hyperbole there, but think about what you're suggesting with these examples.

"I have gotten really frustrated with all of this stuff. Some people just don't accept that there are sick people just like Hitler incarnated on this planet. Some people don't realize the value of some actions."

Once again, I guess I'm some people. There are millions of sick people everywhere, but I find the tendency of people to always come back to Hitler interesting in these debates. Hitler was as much a product of very specialized conditions as anything else, so I'm not sure how you feel this comment is pertinent to our current situation. Have you ever read about why democracy failed in the interwar period in Europe and the exact social conditions that allowed a despot like Hitler to rise to power? It was a little more complicated than him burning down the Reichstag and scaring everybody. The example really doesn't apply in anyway and I'm not sure what you're trying to say with it.

So far as the value of certain actions, like what? If you strip this statement for meaning, it carries little intention accept to say that I apparently don't understand what is going in the world, a statement with which I beg to differ.

"Very spiritual people say some weird things, act weird too, but I think I can better understand the great saints and the Buddha himself, which I shall quote, "He who has seen both the Void and Nirvana is very hard to understand."

You should talk to my mom, she's got a doctorate in comparative religion and was a practicing Taoist when she met my dad. She's met the Dala Lama and she wrote a once popular book on how Zen Buddhism has influenced western new-age spirituality. I have no idea what you're talking about with the above quote, but I mention my family background to qualify my earlier comments about not exactly buying the fact that you meditating in your dorm room is making the world a better place. I've been around this stuff all my life, and I've never heard and expert on Buddhism suggest that their search for enlightenment was great for everybody else or that it helped them understand things related to conspiracies that the rest of us can't understand.

"In my own spiritual quests I have seen things that no one else around me realizes. People have to take LSD and stuff like that to get a grasp of it, and even then drugs are full of confusion."

Still not sure what this has to do with our discussion about conspiracy theories, but it looks like you're not too interested in discussing that anymore. I don't feel one way or another about hallucingenics as a path to better udnerstanding, but John Lennon disagrees with you.

"This thread is getting me nowhere and is just bad for my own mental clarity."

I tend to feel that focused exercise and argument is the best mental exercise there is. The ability to formulate and defend a strong argument while also scrutinizing another is considered one of the highest forms of mental activity going back to the classical world. I feel, however, that judging from your lack of remarks and lack of effort in defending your points/answering my questions that you aren't really interested in debating anything, but rather entered the debate because you were either annoyed or insulted that somebody disagreed with you.

This is a natural reaction when you see something you believe deconstructed, but the lack of desire to defend it signals to me that you prefer to leave your beliefs unexamined. Hopefully this will change since you're in college and in the prime time of your life for learning. Plus, if a thread on a freakin' Penis Enlargement board is bad for your mental clarity, then you probably need to go talk to a professional or something.

"All I have to say is Stridge repeatedly uses ad hominem attacks against me just because I am "young and stupid (lack wisdom, haven't 'seen the world')."

Addressed this comment earlier, never called you stupid. I will say that you're nineteen and you only cite Alex Jones sponsored websites and articles for 99% of what you say. Alex Jones isn't a journalist or a credible commentator - he's a radio talk show host that now runs a whole bunch of websites and makes scare tactic films that masquerade as documentary. This guy is your guru, so yes, in some respects I have no problem saying that you're not a very worldly individual. Sorry, most fresHydromaxan in college aren't.

"Well, Stridge, I'm sure you're just a genius old man then who has some great wisdom. Stridge, you're also a "coincidence theorist."

Old man? Listen here sonny, I'm not all that much older than you are, although we definately didn't grow up watching the same cartoons. I've never suggested any great wisdom, just lots more experience, reading, and a more balanced sense of how to evaluate information.

And, what is a coincidence theorist, and how do my comments make me one? There is no context or explanation for this statement, it's just tacked onto the end of your comments.

"9/11 Truth is getting even more help, and the truth is coming out thanks to BBC now and others. The movement is looking good, and I will be there to support the uncovering of corruption and truth until humanity becomes spiritual."

Until humanity becomes spiritual? It hasn't always been spiritual? Religion and transcendent practices are some of the earliest examples of higher human thought that we have. Most of the world practices religion, wars are currently being fought over religion, not to mention the millions of religious and spiritual books, organizations, films, art, geeze . . . nevermind.

No effense man, but I don't think it's a brilliant idea to blaze up some of those sticky buds before you post about this stuff. Your comments are pretty unfocused and some just plain don't make sense.

"Clearly, some people just will never accept the fact that governments have and will kill their own people just for their own advantage. It took me over three years to come to that fact, but I am glad I have seen it."

Uh, once again, get real here. Governments do this, and in fact there doing it right now (ever pay much attention to Africa?). The fact that governments are corruptable and some do horrible things does not mean that our government plotted and carried a massive conspiracy to murder its own citizens. This is a leap in logic that would get you waxed by any seventh grade debate team member worth their salt.

Anybody knows government has been responsbile for terrible stuff, and plenty of good stuff as well. The argument you make with that statement is so general and unsupported that it's practically meaningless. This is the stuff I'm talking about. Make your case with facts, specifics, nuance, anticipation - don't just tell that governments are capable of doing bad things. My car is capable of killing a dog, but that doesn't mean I'm guilty if somebody's poodle gets run over a hundred miles from where I live.

Anyway, if you really feel like debating conspiracy theories with me on the internet is hurting your mental health or something, then by all means don't post anymore.

As for the rest (uh, Reber?), I'd still love to hear somebody's complete picture/timeline on 9/11 or any of the illuminati/world-takover theories. I'm just trying to get a full grip on what it is you guys believe, because to be honest for the life of me I can't find a completist picture on any of the gazillion conspiracy sites out there.
 
Spirituality != religion. Spirit = love.

By channeling Light we further enlighten our planet and bring the presence of light around others.

I have some test tomorrow, I guess I'll clarify more later.
 
On second thought, scratch that. I'll just have to learn a great spiritual lesson to STFU about spirit things. People who have not felt divine light cannot feel, therefore see, what enlightened people talk about.

It's sad for me to see that I can never help anyone out spiritually. It's all up to them to go through ego games until they feel the Bliss.

Btw, I never called you a sheep.
 
Never said you called me a sheep - but conspiracy theorists, including, do at times refer to anybody that doesn't believe in conspiracies as 'sheep.' Comparing those that don't agree with you to an animal principally known for its ease of control, stupid nature and fearfullness is fairly nasty, but whatever.

Not sure what you're getting at with all the spiritual enlightenment stuff. With the usual disclaimer of no offense, doesn't it generally take Buddhist masters years and years of deep inward contemplation and regimented study to achieve anything even approximating enlightenment? As I said, I'm not into that stuff, but seriously, aren't you not even old enough to buy beer?

Anyway, I post on this thread to discuss 9/11 and conspiracy theories in general. I'm sure your spiritual quest thing is interesting, but we're getting pretty far off topic here.
 
Reber187 said:
"Still waiting for that comprehensive explanation on 9/11 as well, anybody?"

likewise my good friend, then we can all go to bed... i don't know what exactly went down on 9/11 and prior to that historic day. evidence to destroy my speculations and conspiracy theories resides under lock and key, and may never be released to the public domain.

the starting block here is the moment when the first plane struck the trade centre, so lets begin there.

it'll take 3 minutes to read this link:
Why No Norad On 911? RENSE document(YES! "conspiracy" is their bread & butter) additionally, why hasn't a single black box recorder been recovered from any of the air craft? they are durable beyond belief, and only seldom get recovered when a plane crashes at sea.

here you can find one of the most comprehensive catalogues of 9/11 pics on the net(to my knowledge) Gallery when talking pentagon, can you see even a trace of remnants of a boeing 737 plane? or the associated visual impact evidence on the wall of the pentagon? study them, theres many, many photo's. also, whilst the fire crews battle the blazes in their infancy, can you see the flood of ambulances you'd predict you'd see, since they would have been expecting passengers aboard a plan wouldn't they... its the weirdest "plane crash" and "rescue effort" ive ever wittnessed.

"get my opinions from real experience - no offense, but your stuff comes from a website that badly wants to sell you a membership and some DVDs."

i haven't had to pay for anything. its all free.

"Uh, so then there can't be any good and honest people that enter public service because they believe in it? Trust me buddy, it's easy to believe that the government is controlled by a bunch of greedy psychopaths when you're sitting there in your dorm room, but how can you really say this without having spent any time around government? From what I can tell, you barely know anything about it yet you're totally convinced it's filled with evil people bent on manipulating and dominating everybody else. This is a sci-fi fantasy masquerading as a worldview."

i don't think anyone here, no matter what table they eat at, thinks that everybody is corrupt... thats absurd.
as ive said before i believe that almost, if not all big money is corrupt. its the steriod effect.
also, as ive voiced many times here and in my everyday life, the people that print the money control the world, they always have done and always will do. ultimately the blame lays with the Crown, but the federal reserve is closer to home for you guys... lacerate me at will, but if you can't see that your national debt will inevitably fold your nation sooner rather than later, then there is no car we can both drive.
the banking cartel thats illegally ringing america dry and has been for decades, throws the punches. if 9/11 isn't their template, sure as hell they green lighted it.

Leading Bin Laden expert goes on record as saying the tapes are fake. he joins many others.
Top Bin Laden Expert: Confession Fake | 911Blogger.com

and Stridge, when you're inside something the hardest thing to do is see the outside.


keep pushing


stridge -

again i'll state i dont know precisely what the "new world order" has up its starched sleeve nor do i know of a template for world take over. i just want answers to my simple questions encompassing 9/11... if an investigation had been carried out immediately(as you would expect for the greatest crime commited against America) then i wouldn't have battered an eyelid. when that was not implemented it raises the eyebrow of suspicion, why was the crime scene of 9/11 cleared? why would you do that? and what motive is there to do so? the stench of fish becomes overwhelming, you cannot deny how backward the investigation of 9/11 has been... and as ive stated many times its a federal law to tamper with a crime scene. whats your answer to this? is the government above the law or not?

new world order shit:-

Vladimir Putin to the assembled participants of the annual Munich Wehrkunde security conference:-
Putin spoke in general terms of Washington's vision of a 'unipolar' world, with 'one center of authority, one center of force, one center of decision-making, calling it a 'world in which there is one master, one sovereign. And at the end of the day this is pernicious not only for all those within this system, but also for the sovereign itself because it destroys itself from within.'

Then the Russian President got to the heart of the matter: 'Today we are witnessing an almost uncontained hyper use of force - military force - in international relations, force that is plunging the world into an abyss of permanent conflicts. As a result we do not have sufficient strength to find a comprehensive solution to any one of these conflicts. Finding a political settlement also becomes impossible.'

Putin continued, 'We are seeing a greater and greater disdain for the basic principles of international law. And independent legal norms are, as a matter of fact, coming increasingly closer to one state's legal system. One state and, of course, first and foremost the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way. This is visible in the economic, political, cultural and educational policies it imposes on other nations. Well, who likes this? Who is happy about this?'

to read more:
Feb 19, 2007 V. Putin and the Geopolitics of the New Cold War... William Engdahl 321gold

when he speaks with this patent aggression about the conflict America is producing and a new arms race it worries me.

then--

a theory model of how the new world order might come about in the now:

Once you understand the Illuminati’s modus operandi of Ordo Ab Chao (”order out of chaos”) everything begins to make perfect sense. Bilder-Bush and Bilder-Blair conspire to trap America in Iraq while Bilder-Blair works closely behind the scenes with both the EU and the UN who then proclaim America to be the new Evil Empire. Then here we have the next “prime minister-in-waiting” (pre-selected by the Bilderberg elite obviously) to roll out the next phase which is the complete damning of America in the eyes of the world and subsequent absorption into the global government after a chastising in the fires of WWIII. All of this is staged, set up and engineered for public consumption. All of it is designed to bring America down to its knees because only by destroying America can the New World Order be realized. And after that, the whole world can kiss their freedoms goodbye and accept their total enslavement.

America is bank rolling its self for the occupation in the middle east, national debt is astronomical, taxes and inflation rise periodically, another great depression is just round the corner. the world now views America as the enemy, the aggressor, the bully. IF a pre-empted attack befalls another "noncompliant" country at the hands of the united states, i for one will be very concerned indeed... thats where im at.


keep pushing
 
stridge said:
Never said you called me a sheep - but conspiracy theorists, including, do at times refer to anybody that doesn't believe in conspiracies as 'sheep.' Comparing those that don't agree with you to an animal principally known for its ease of control, stupid nature and fearfullness is fairly nasty, but whatever.

Not sure what you're getting at with all the spiritual enlightenment stuff. With the usual disclaimer of no offense, doesn't it generally take Buddhist masters years and years of deep inward contemplation and regimented study to achieve anything even approximating enlightenment? As I said, I'm not into that stuff, but seriously, aren't you not even old enough to buy beer?

Anyway, I post on this thread to discuss 9/11 and conspiracy theories in general. I'm sure your spiritual quest thing is interesting, but we're getting pretty far off topic here.

Enlightenment (in my view) = feeling of divine bliss when meditating
The "enlightenment" in many older texts refers to what I would call Liberation of the Soul, when you transcend the karmic law.

So, many people on this world are enlightened, not many are liberated.

Yes, this thread is getting off topic.

I guess the easiest way to put it is that those who have been convinced that 9/11 was an inside job will go on pursuing whatever they feel is necessary, as will those that don't think it was.
 
Hey Reber,

So far as the 9/11 site not being properly investigated, I don't seem to have as much information on that as you all, but I fail to see what the whole problem was. First of all, 9/11 was something that had no precident. You need only look at hurricane Katrina and it's aftermath to see how incompitent and disorganized our government agencies are when they're in crisis and response mode. While I'm certain there were mistakes and snafus all the way down the line, I haven't seen anything that suggests criminal tampering. And, as I said, nothing like 9/11 ever happened before - I don't think that there was any set of instructions to guid the decision making process in the immediate aftermath. It's just something to consider when looking at this stuff.

I really don't see how the scene was 'cleared.' There were hundreds of millions of tons of rubble, it took months to get everything hauled away. As I've said before, the investigating scientists took as many samples as they needed - it's not like they were going to collect and study every shred of debris at Ground Zero. And keeping the area restricted isn't fishy to me, it's common sense. Not only was the place a major health hazard, but the top levels of government are naturally going to want to strictly control access and investigation into an area like that so there is order and control. Anyway if you let me know what you're referring to more specifically I can probably comment more articulately.

So far as Putin discussing armed conflict, I can't read too much into that. Putin is a thig and smart manipulator, and he's not afraid to switch on the anti-US rhetoric when it serves his purposes, but the Russian government also works very closely and happily with us on many things. Leaders publicly criticize and cut deals behind the scenes; that's how diplomacy has worked since the beginning. Russia has some potential, but they're a loooooong ways away from being able to finance arms build-up and actually be a seriously competative force. Their only chance for unlocking their resource potential is western investment - trust me on this one, it's directly related to what I do for a living. Putin is an old school realist when it comes to international relations, but he understands the globalized model as well, and he plays both strategies. But don't take some tough-guy chatter from Russia as a sign of impending catastrophe - he's basically just spouting off at the muzzle to placate anti-US government that Russia works with.

The Illuminati model is interesting, but it makes several assumptions that are somewhat dubious to me. For starters, it implies that the British political system is a farce where PMs and pre-ordained to rise to power with a specific agenda. This means democracy in your country is a sham, which I really don't think there's any evidence to support and I don't feel that's something that you could keep a secret in the UK for so long - you know how your tabloids are! Just kidding with that, but do you really think that democracy is just a show in the UK and Parliament is all on board with this world takover business? You know how Parliament is as well, and if what you say about the PMs is true, then every member must be cooperating with the conspiracy as well. That means all their staffs down there at Whitehall (I think that's what it's called? It's been a while) are knowledgable as well, because they could hardly work for an MP without being aware that everything he does is under the service of this conspiracy agenda to support a corrupt and unfairly appointed PM working on a global conspiracy. Frankly it all get a little unbelievable to me when I break it down into logistics this way - too many people, too hard to organize, too hard to keep secret, just too many variables. It's hard to keep small secrets amongst small groups of people - take Watergate in America as an example - this seems well enough impossible.

Another thing I don't get - a lot of what you've said about the global conspiracy implies that America is in on it, yet it also involves the downfall of America. Who amongst our government want to see it destroyed? None have a change of heart and decide they like having power in their own country and turn on the Illuminati? Basically some generation of leaders and business in the US will get screwed when we are eventually taken down, so what is their motivation to participate? And finally, this is pretty obvious but if America really is destroyed, it would cause a more or less global economic collapse that would wipe out the wealth and power of most the nations that I assume would be leading the new world order and many, many very wealthy people would lose everything. Considering the vested interest the wealthy have in maintaining their wealth, I really doubt so many of the power-elite would be willing to go along with this plan. If the international markets collapse - and they would without the US being involved - billionaires the world over would love just about everything. This makes it hard to believe that all these Larry Silverstein (who isn't really all that high up on the wealth table worldwide) types are actually willing to go along with this.

Plus, wealthy people and government thrive from commerce - most of the wealthy would lose everything if democracy were abolished under a global system and human society was enslaved. What is the point of enslaving everybody bring the downfall of everything as we know it? Why bother with this masssive scheme? Who really benefits by causing this?

Plus, what you describe involves America remaining as a prime aggressor in world affairs. That seems plausible at the moment, but as we speak out Democratic Congress is working to stop our involvement in Iraq and undermine Bush, and it's very likely that we'll have a black or female Democratic president in 2008, who are both committed to a non-aggressive foreign policy. Are Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton signed on to help America tank itself so the NWO can take over as well? Are our elections rigged to suit this plan? If they are and the Illuminati people really have this much control, why has it taken them so long and why have they let US power become so hegemonic rather than impliment a one-world system when we were far weaker and it would have been much easier?

There are just so many things that make absolutely no sense to me about this, but I do find it interesting. What would you need to see happen to change your mind about this NWO thing? What if the US became internationally popular again and a new age of international peace and prosperity came around? I know it seems more likely in the Cold War mentality that a lot of this conspiracy stuff seems to operate under, but the fact is, a third world war is highly unlikely. Even with our military stretched thin, the US is just too powerful for anybody to defeat and it wouldn't do anybody any good to engage us and our allies. The realist era is over, we're into globalized economies now and a much more complicated international system. That doesn't mean we're developing into a one-world order, but it does mean that wars are more costly than ever before and nations are apt to work harder to avoid them - which is actually a good thing.
 
"So, many people on this world are enlightened, not many are liberated."

PRobably what I was referring to, didn't know you were using your own personal defenitions for things.

"I guess the easiest way to put it is that those who have been convinced that 9/11 was an inside job will go on pursuing whatever they feel is necessary, as will those that don't think it was."

As I said, the debate is interesting, I'm not hear to defeat anybody, just to ask questions and defend my viewpoint. One thing that I feel is inaccurate is that the idea that 9/11 conspiracists are pursuing anything. There's a big difference between searching for the truth and searching for tidbits of information that enforce your already existing assumption about something.

As far as I can tell, the 9/11 "Truth" thing only seeks to sustain itself because the people involved like the idea of a conspiracy, not to objectively evaluate information.

Iwant8inches is a good example of somebody that is applying a high standard to both sides of the argument and actively seeking to really understand the circumstances around 9/11 - read his posts closely to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.
 
hey stridge -

firstly i'd like to thank you for continuously replying in this thread, i respect your words and have learned many aspects of politics on a white collar scale that i would not have been exposed to otherwise.

investigation: what i know is that a chinesse company(i think they're called 'chinesse demolition' believe it or not) began clearing the vast amounts of structural steel from the site before any appointed authority could do what they do. the steel was then held briefly on Statan island(i think thats where) and then shipped to china to be melted down.

FEMA & NIST studied some remnants of steel many months and years after respectively that were not shipped. ok, that doesn't sound like a cyclopean, shout from the roof top conspiracy, i agree... however, ive seen pics of core colums of the wtc's that are perfectly sliced at 45%. we've been over this and i find it a phenomenal occurance if it wasn't a cutter charge(i have linked a page somewhere from the worlds biggest demolition firm which debunks 9/11, but on its site clearly describes the effect on H-beams etc when exposed to a cutter charge)

these 45% phenomena's have not been touched upon by FEMA & NIST that im aware of, and its a trademark of visual demolition as stated by the worlds biggest demolition firm. was the steel they have access to selected? it makes me wonder.

also the lack of governmental or larry silverstein appointed meastro engineers descending upon ground zero to deconstruct what occured on 9/11 so that an engineering failer of that calibre would never befall the world again made me wonder. you yourself said Larry has to rebuild, would it not have been shrewd to employ the best of the best to figure out what on earth happened... this isnt how matters played out was it, it was left months before anything of that ilk was put in motion.

again with the molten metal/steel(or what ever it was) this has been a glaring omission from FEMA & NIST. im sure you have seen the videos of firefighters, workman and the like, describing how 6 weeks after the attack there is still a lava -esque substance emitting incredible heat at ground zero... a confirmed temp of 1100c was given, thats very hot, and another phenomena excluded by the investigation squads and their reports. why haven't they been covered, the world knows, and knew about it, why didn't they.

these are not small issues that can be brushed aside and swept under the rug, they are significant issues that have been shrouded by denial and refutation.

as for Putin, im versed with what this mans about and his politic ideologies and muscle(no where near as much as you though i would think) its just that he expressed intentions of a new arms race and hinted heavily toward space weapons. i listen to the underground grapevine and for a while now theres been chit chat about this very subject and accompanying it has been nano weapons... i know hes as much about showmanship and playground verbatim as the next head of state, however the mention of a new arms race, whatever the context is huge, this is considering we haven't heard anything like this in a great while. i find these worrying words, thats all.

new world order shit. you asked for the timeline/programme, i gave it you.

"What would you need to see happen to change your mind about this NWO thing? What if the US became internationally popular again and a new age of international peace and prosperity came around?"

as ive stated many, many times i belive that it is the superbankers that own the banks in their little cartel that control the world because they print the money. if there is a new world order it is them(besides the Crown of course, "he who rules the oceans...")

america is going to sink into a self inflicted chasm very soon because of the federal reserve. i stand by that and sing it.


keep pushing
 
Reber187 said:
stridge -

again i'll state i dont know precisely what the "new world order" has up its starched sleeve nor do i know of a template for world take over. i just want answers to my simple questions encompassing 9/11... if an investigation had been carried out immediately(as you would expect for the greatest crime commited against America) then i wouldn't have battered an eyelid. when that was not implemented it raises the eyebrow of suspicion, why was the crime scene of 9/11 cleared? why would you do that? and what motive is there to do so? the stench of fish becomes overwhelming, you cannot deny how backward the investigation of 9/11 has been... and as ive stated many times its a federal law to tamper with a crime scene. whats your answer to this? is the government above the law or not?

new world order shit:-

Vladimir Putin to the assembled participants of the annual Munich Wehrkunde security conference:-
Putin spoke in general terms of Washington's vision of a 'unipolar' world, with 'one center of authority, one center of force, one center of decision-making, calling it a 'world in which there is one master, one sovereign. And at the end of the day this is pernicious not only for all those within this system, but also for the sovereign itself because it destroys itself from within.'

Then the Russian President got to the heart of the matter: 'Today we are witnessing an almost uncontained hyper use of force - military force - in international relations, force that is plunging the world into an abyss of permanent conflicts. As a result we do not have sufficient strength to find a comprehensive solution to any one of these conflicts. Finding a political settlement also becomes impossible.'

Putin continued, 'We are seeing a greater and greater disdain for the basic principles of international law. And independent legal norms are, as a matter of fact, coming increasingly closer to one state's legal system. One state and, of course, first and foremost the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way. This is visible in the economic, political, cultural and educational policies it imposes on other nations. Well, who likes this? Who is happy about this?'

to read more:
Feb 19, 2007 V. Putin and the Geopolitics of the New Cold War... William Engdahl 321gold

when he speaks with this patent aggression about the conflict America is producing and a new arms race it worries me.

then--

a theory model of how the new world order might come about in the now:

Once you understand the Illuminati’s modus operandi of Ordo Ab Chao (”order out of chaos”) everything begins to make perfect sense. Bilder-Bush and Bilder-Blair conspire to trap America in Iraq while Bilder-Blair works closely behind the scenes with both the EU and the UN who then proclaim America to be the new Evil Empire. Then here we have the next “prime minister-in-waiting” (pre-selected by the Bilderberg elite obviously) to roll out the next phase which is the complete damning of America in the eyes of the world and subsequent absorption into the global government after a chastising in the fires of WWIII. All of this is staged, set up and engineered for public consumption. All of it is designed to bring America down to its knees because only by destroying America can the New World Order be realized. And after that, the whole world can kiss their freedoms goodbye and accept their total enslavement.

America is bank rolling its self for the occupation in the middle east, national debt is astronomical, taxes and inflation rise periodically, another great depression is just round the corner. the world now views America as the enemy, the aggressor, the bully. IF a pre-empted attack befalls another "noncompliant" country at the hands of the united states, i for one will be very concerned indeed... thats where im at.


keep pushing

I think you should go to school for history and sociology or even economics so that you can better understand the dynamics of social change from a historical context. Perhaps take some sociology courses particularly those dealing with globalization. Examine some of the theories out there as to why conflict arises for instance. On the surface the reasons seem obvious and they should be obvious, but researching and discussing such subject matter would be probably interest you if you haven't all ready done so that is. Anything worth discussing takes critical thought and reasoning skills.

I don't expect you to come up with the whole story or even come up with a complete theory as to how the buildings collapsed unless you can somehow test any hypothesis you might have. I doubt you or anyone here can so again I am not asking that of you or anyone. I expect there to be some discussion over what occurred/supposedly occurred rather than something like "oh brother, why bother because that is so absurd you can't possibly expect me to believe it." I'm not saying I have it right. I could be wrong about why I don't think explosives could have been used to bring down the towers for instance. I gave a rather crude example why I don't see how it would be within reason to believe such a notion. I didn't mention anything about you somehow actually digging up clues on your own or anyone else. Just provide the reasons that you believe it could be controlled demolition or what have you.

Discussions can challenge people and provide a microcosm of what it's like when you challenge yourself to go outside your comfort zone by viewing things differently.

I intended to engender a discussion with all of you about 9/11. What do you believe and why? No one should feel hurt or frustrated as such to just quit. I am capable of changing my mind if over time I find that what I've been told is verifable. I've obviously been dupped before in this very thread and with others I've spoken with and had an email correspondence about the very topic at hand.
 
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