Integrity

In my opinion this forum has for the most part departed from its original purpose in recent months. When it opened up, the focus was mainly on Penis Enlargement and the mechanics involved in it. Recently, the forum has taken a very cult-like attitude and has devolved into more of a support group, where you can claim any size and amount of gains you want, offering no proof, and be stroked off by the more enthusiastic of members, the 1% of the members that make about 99% of the posts here. I am certainly not suggesting that members be forced to post clear measured pictures of their units before claiming to have a big dick, but I feel the insecurities of these enthusiastic members have prevailed to the point where calling even the most absurd of claims out is considered taboo and when a member does so, they are quickly flamed. This is a very obvious form of censorship. Many of the members here who claim the biggest dicks and the most gains are not exactly the most humble people either. They will brag about their size, their sexual conquests, and give advice on the topics of Penis Enlargement, penis size, sex, and relationships as if they are PhDs in the field. How can a newbie embark on their Penis Enlargement journey most efficiently when they are not allowed ask for proof that these members have ACTUALLY gained the size they claim? To me it has always been clear that a large amount of the members at all of these penis sites are bullshitting their stats. The bullshit doesn't all revolve around members who exaggerate their size, look at all of the alternative Penis Enlargement methods that some jackass cooked up which have been dispelled; penis pills, the ROP, certain FR claims (not FR in general of course).

The thought that many members here who HONESTLY BELIEVE the massive sizes they claim and the validity of their methods and products are full of shit seems to strike quite a nerve with many members here. To me it seems almost like these members come here to live out a fantasy and get very insecure and childish when a more skeptical member who doesn't buy into pie-in-the-sky type thinking points out how unrealistic they are being, almost as if reading the reality bursts their little bubble. Being skeptical and asking for proof is very unpopular at this forum, with the enthusiastic 1% I mentioned earlier (made up mainly by moderators and other posters who have been built up to near god-like status on this little-known message board) destined to squelch this type of posting by calling the members who questions insecure, obsessed, crazy, ect. Often times, threads in which these debates occur are deleted (putting a thread in the trash makes it inaccessible to regular members, which is everyone except for about a dozen people here, so for practical purposes trashing is equivalent to deleting). Of course, the moderators are very clever to wait for things to get a little heated and then they can say that the thread wasn't deleted due to the content in it, but because members bickered and it looks bad for the forum. And thus, it is struck from the record. Their defense will be that free speech has its limits. However, this is clearly not one of them. Walking onto a plane and saying "I have a bomb" transcends the realm of free speech. Suggesting that a highly acclaimed member or moderator here might be fudging their numbers or their FR results does NOT transcend this realm. I noticed that this deleting happened in several recent threads and made a post where I asked DLD to explain how this is allowed when he clearly states that MOS is 100% censorship-free. He never responded in my thread and it was abruptly locked by Redzulu.

In a recent thread, a poll was posted where members report their erect girth. The directions were to measure at the very thickest part of the erection so as not to bias those who have tapers. This is despite the fact that the vast majority of men are measurably thicker at the base and most reputable medical studies on penis size (the ones that aren't self measured) measure about the midshaft. These studies always yield results in the upper 4's for girth, 4.8 and 4.9. Despite the fact that this is clearly the average girth, less than 10% of members claimed sizes that small and the response was "yup, looks like Penis Enlargement is working wonders for us, we appear to all have huge dicks." The idea that we all have big dicks here is laughable, relatively speaking, there couldn't be big if there wasn't small to go along with it. Surely we are going to rank higher than the norm in penis size as many of the members here have experienced gains, but we had about 1/3 of the members reporting sizes in the top 1-2 percentile on this survey. I am sorry to say it, but this post I am referencing was made just to make people feel better by lulling them into a false sense of security. I could list dozens of posts made in this manner if I wanted to prove a point. I don't come to this forum to get brainwashed into thinking that I have a huge dick, I come to this forum so I can actually GET a huge dick goddamnit!!! I am 5 1/8 inches at the midshaft (and around this size for the majority of my shaft) but my base tapers outward very dramatically at the bottom inch or so, where I am about 6 inches around. By the rules in this post I mention I would have a massive 6 inch girth and could retire before I even make any significant gains. However, I would only be kidding myself as I know that I have a 5 1/8 girth, no matter how I sugar coat it. But hey, at least I backed up the size I claimed with a set of clear measured pictures in the picture proof forum.

I don't mean to cast a negative view on this forum or its moderators and members, I like this place and it fascinates me that I am actually able to increase the size of my penis which I have always been told is impossible. However, my gains have been less than stellar and I feel that many in my situation who are more impressionable will read the success stories here, emulate their routines, and 3 months down the road they are going to be pretty discouraged when they gain little if anything and the member they emulated claims to have gone from 6 inches to 8 inches in a matter of weeks on the same routine. I believe that above all else this place should strive for honesty and integrity, and the more skeptical and inquisitive members such as myself should be able to voice their opinions without being silenced. Thanks for reading, I don't expect this thread to be taken well here, although I said what was on my mind. Everyone's thoughts?

Not surprisingly my thread was immediately moved out of the main forum where I posted it to the deep thoughts forum where it is now. Typical fucking cloak tactics, they don't want everyone to see it and discuss it. This thread has more to do with Penis Enlargement than a lot of the threads on the opening page of the main forum.

Sounds like you are just venting. Maybe putting too much thought into everything. You could have been Penis Enlargement-ing, instead of writing that long post. After all, how much of an increae in size you get is what is most important from this thing right?

I get your view though. I used to get frustrated to see people claim a certain size when an inch and a half are hiden in their skin, but I pointed that out and moved on. Now I don't even feel the need to say anything, b/c all that matters is what I got. People measure differently. Most of the time I take things I read with a grain of salt too.

i don't know how to respond to this thread. i find it funny that you ask for proof on my recent pics and then next you know you're posting up a thread about how things are bullshit on here. i understand that you mention other threads, however you mention the guys who are in the 1 - 2% realm could be full of bullshit. the fact that we're on a Penis Enlargement site means that we're going to be above average at some point, and i know that i and whoever else has a larger girth or length, means that we busted our balls to get it. and i don't know why some members gain faster than others. i have an idea of how though, i'll post up what i'm talkin about it later when i'm more awake.

and i don't know what you mean about "bragging" about our gains or sexual experience and especially the part about giving out Penis Enlargement advice. if the big gainers can help the newbies or other people looking to make their dicks bigger then HEY, that's what we're here for right? i get asked for advice a lot, and i'm more than happy to answer the questions. does that mean i'm bragging or acting like i have a Phd?? we're all workin off ideas and experiences. my experiences is a lot different from someone elses, much like how my gaining is unlike everyone elses. i have handed out my old routine which used to average a .25 inch gain for me every month or so. it worked for me, if someone asks for my old routine i'll give it to them in hopes that it'll help them. it doesn't mean that they'll grow at the same rate that i did, but maybe in the long run it would help. maybe not, but hey it's all about finding what works out the best for you.

i don't know if i misread your post or not, but i was more than taken back when you said that big gainers are in a "dream world" and you along with the other skeptics "burst our bubbles". again, big gainers gain because we worked our asses off! if we had to sit there for 2 or more hours to get the affective work out to get better results then we do it. it takes up a lot of time and requires a lot of alone time, however if you can do it then just do it. if someone isn't gaining, the try out another routine, or try out more intense work outs or whatever else it takes to get the work out you want and need.

i'm sure that some members have claimed bigger than what they are, but that doesn't affect the ones who work hard and get the solid gains. sooner or later the people who lie get busted and come clean, at least i find that to be sure. it's not horrible to want more honesty here on the forum. i don't know i'm straying from the topic. it's just that i and many other members deal with this crap almost all the time. i'm going to have to just ignore this the next time because all i do is rambel on and get pissed

Skepdick said:

Not surprisingly my thread was immediately moved out of the main forum where I posted it to the deep thoughts forum where it is now. Typical fucking cloak tactics, they don't want everyone to see it and discuss it. This thread has more to do with Penis Enlargement than a lot of the threads on the opening page of the main forum.

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And why shouldn't it be in the Deep Thoughts section? Tons of people read this section, it isn't like your post will go unnoticed now. It's a rant, it belongs in Deep Thoughts. Get over yourself.

Skepdick,

You are probably correct. Most of the massive gains reported are simply BS.

Maybe 20% or less have actually reported true gains. The rest measure right after a workout and/or add extra length/girth to make themselves feel good.


Falcon

I have to agree, I am somewhat glad you brought this up. The majority of the members here apparently have 8x6 dicks from the polls. I was like WTF that can't be right.

I think it is arrogant, and maybe even its own form of denial, to think that you are one of the very few here who are honest while everyone else is full of crap or delusional. In fact, I know it is arrogant!

Although we have very different viewpoints, it does not mean we have to hate each other, so don't take this as me wanting a fight or flaming you. This is just what I think.

When I talk about sex here on the forum, it is because I want to talk about sex. I thoroughly enjoy sex. I am a horny, perverted man. I get a kick out of hearing everyone's dirty stories and sharing my own. I don't have any love-hate issues with women. I'm not overly insecure or overly full of myself. I just talk, and if the things I say offend you or sound like they're bragging, maybe you should examine yourself and your own feelings regarding sex before thinking I or anyone else here are bragging, lying or living in some kind of delusional fantasy world.

I am a very positive person. When I get excited about something, I want to share it! I try to be honest, and so I also trust in the honesty of others. If someone says they have a nine incher, who am I to say they're lying? It's their dick, and even if they had ruler pictures, who's to say they aren't photoshopped, or even if the pic is actually their cock? Being overly worried about that kind of thing smacks of deep insecurity to me. I am not overly insecure about my penis, so it doesn't matter one shit to me. Unless we all get together in a big wharehouse and whip them out as a group and compare, we are all kind of under the honor system anyway.

Like I said, tho, everyone has their own viewpoint, and your opinion that the majority of us are self-deluded liars is just as valid as anyone else's. I just think people who feel that way are arrogant and insecure-- arrogant, by thinking you're somehow more intelligent and honest than everyone else, and insecure, by needing to think we're all littler than we say so you can feel like your ding-dong is bigger.

I hail from a family of pretty hung men, so I've seen big dicks for real. They do exist outside the delusional universe of internet Penis Enlargement forums, as much as you'd rather think otherwise! Do I want one for myself? Yes, of course I do! Will it make me a better human being or special somehow? Nope. I'm just here to have fun, grow my weiner, and bullshit around with some E-pals.

My mother always had a saying. When you point a finger at someone, there's three more pointing back at you. I think you're the one living in a fantasy world. In your fantasy world, everyone is lying except you!

Ah Kong, what in interesting post all about yourself! Perhaps a biography sub-forum is in order. But, um, back to the topic of the thread . . .

These of course are important issues to anybody that uses the forum for Penis Enlargement information or is looking to verify their efforts through the success of others.

One important and interesting fact that Skepdick's post suggests and that is rarely brought up is that although MOS's own polls and the general wisdom around here show that there are a bunch of massive peckers running around, we very rarely see any documentation of their size, of more importantly, their gains.

A few guys who measured up that I can recall: Bigedu, Crazyeyed, Kausion420, treepapaniner. Guys who didn't: well, a whole bunch. 40,000+ members, probably less than ten who post clear or measured pics showing a statistically very rare, but frequently claimed size. Interestingly most of those guys never posted a measured pic - they didn't have to because it was obvious they were what they said. Crazyeyed and bigedu have a clearly massive size, in fact a size I've seen on almost nobody on this website (maybe one or two, Kausion included) actually above - yet the recent polls indicate their size isn't very special? Are they just average for MOS? I doubt that's the case.

There is a trend on this site where it's not okay to say "prove it" or "yeah right" when somebody claims something impressive. It's quite sili, and I might add that it seems, at least in my estimation, that the people most in favor of keeping things that way tend to be the ones who prefer an environment where they aren't questioned.

Others have pointed out before that if you were to drop in on a bodybuilding forum and say "Hey fellas, newbie here, been at this a year, have 28" waist, 60" chest, 25" arms," people simply aren't going to take such things seriously. In the old days, ruler shots and clear photos were encouraged by all except a few. If you're going to bother even announcing your size and posting a picture, then add the clear measurement. It has been well established that it's damn near impossible to make sense of pictures on the internet; I'm sure I could screw around with some camera angles for a minute or two and then dazzle you all with my 14" monster! It's not difficult to take a clear picture or an overhead measured snapshot, we all know that's bullshit. Sure it doesn't look so impressive, but the numbers don't lie, and that's the most impressive thing of all. When people are honest we get a better idea of what the reality of others is, what the possibility for really gaining is, and the forum becomes better for it.

I don't believe it's arrogant of Skepdick to suggest that he's completely honest. Why? He just posted a bunch of clear pics, there's no getting around that. What's interesting about that photo set is it's absolute rarity on a site like this. No weird angles, no partially obscured penis, just clear, straight on measurements. And, I think he'd agree when I say, I doubt it was that hard to do. Why is it such a rarity?

The fact is, there are very few such pictures around, and that's because when you take clear photos like that, it's harder to look bigger. Some guys have done it, but most don't.

This topic concerns me, because when I first accidentally found out about Penis Enlargement and then looked at some of the forums and sites, I became more or less convinced that it was bullshit because there was so little documentation of especially large sizes or gains - and at the same time so many childish posts by guys claiming massive size but copping out whenever proof was requested. Through talking to some Penis Enlargement'ers I've come to believe that some gains are possible, but that certainly might not have been the case if all I had to go on was the current incarnation of the forum.

If I were just now looking into this and came across MOS and saw a forum where a ton of guys, including some of the most proliferous and visable posters ran around singing its praises but refused to document their gains or got pissed off when others brought up the topic, frankly I wouldn't ever come back (no comments from the peanut gallery!).

Anyway the point is, even beyond the photo and size fudging issues, an attitude of censorship, molly coddling and whining, and most of all a lack of Penis Enlargement and general dick-related info seems to have set in here.

At the same time, I recently visited the Thundersplace forum, and noticed it was ten times more active than MOS and also recognized many past and current members posting there. I like MOS and it took me long enough just to get interested in posting here, but I don't doubt that the other big forum is booming with activity because it isn't dominated by this clubhouse-style atmosphere and they're serious about things.

MOS seems to be dominated more than ever by people that get off posting about themselves, newbies who start a thread or post a few times and never come back (small wonder these days), and of course the ever-present "glory sizing" element, which I think also tends to drive away interesting and mature people. If the forum is going to thrive, then we should cut the shit. It's been going in the opposite direction, and the sum result is less Penis Enlargement info and more crap threads.

I'd say the bottom line is, there just isn't much good Penis Enlargement info around anymore and the number of intelligent, and quite frankly normal posters seems to have dwindled. I think all the things Skepdick mentions contribute to this in one way or another.

AncientChina said:

Yeah, no shit super-freak! Now get this banana out of my ass. >

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Awesome posts guys. I really hope there will be some change in the honesty and integrity around here. In defense of the Mods, I feel the censorship is really not THAT bad here. Everyone seems to be able to question someones size without getting banned, and questions anything else as long as you act civil.

One pet peeve of mine is the amount of people who measure after a workout, and claim those stats as their size. If I did this, I would have a ~6 inch midshaft girth penis, 6.5 base. You need to wait at least 36-48 hours in my opinion to claim new gains.

One example of this is a person from �other forum�. He is revered as this awesome girth guru over there, claiming to have gone from 4.5 inches to 6.25 inches in girth (That is 1.75 inches boys and girls!). But, upon closer inspection he has said that he gets to 6.25 on a good day of clamping. No pictures, no proof.

I also believe some guys claim smaller starting sizes once they have made/fabricated Penis Enlargement gains. This makes you look even more super cool and hardworking!

Penis Enlargement "Vet" with no measured pics: "Oh yeah, I was 5 inches BP and 4 girth, now I am 9x6.5 !
Impressionable Newbie: " Oh wow, send me your routine, give me advice, let me lick your nutsack, you are the greatest Mr. Hardworking Penis Enlargement Man!!!

i know i said that i would ignore that, but not everyone who claims to had a small starting size and a recent bigger size is bullshiting newbies and everyone around them. there are bullshiteres tout there i'm sure, i have read many posts of that, even one guy i remember would put up pics of copy written signs down below with an up and coming if not already famous �naked people movies� star bouncing on his cock.

Penis Enlargement DOES WORK and if you pour out your sweat, tears, and blood (a few times literally for me), then you're bound to gain. 4 inch gains are possible, very rare but possible.

I think this is a good thread in theory. But in the end, does it really matter?
For the time--and money--I have spent on Penis Enlargement I am sure I could make much bigger claims
for gains. Just about every major Penis Enlargement tool that has come down the pike I have tried and used for quite some time. You name it, I probably have bought one or tried to make one.

All in all though, I think the basics are more critical than anything else. I probably could have gained a lot more if I had stuck with the basics...or the phase1-4 workouts, than buy/making new items and then learning how to use them effectively.

In the long run, I really, really don't care if someone lies about his size/gains or not. Since this thread is titled "Integrity", what really, really pisses me off the most is someone INTENTIONALLY deceives or misleads others here for PROFIT. Than burns my ass up. Thinking about it, there is not ONE known pic of Bib and he claims to have made HUGE gains. I and alot of others do not question this though. WHY? Because there are so MANY others who have made nice gains using his hanger. I know from the work he put into designing and building his hanger that he has no reason to lie. He gave a reason a few times over at �other forum� why he doesn't want to post pics and that is fine. I can respect that and many others do as well. To my knowledge, Bib has never deceived anyone or mislead anyone in trying to sell his hangers.

Then there is Kong. There have been many times when Kong has gotten kind of irrational about his excitement over FR. In the end, how can anyone dispute ANY of his personal claims? Any time ANYONE has asked for help--yours truly included--he has ALWAYS helped and-- here is the integrity part-- never asked for one DIME in return. Kong probably has as much knowledge about FR than most on here, I am sure he could think of the greatest "NEW" FR device and find a market to sell them like hotcakes, but he never has. Nor has he pushed any FR product that I know of. He was/has been in a position that he could make a buck from FR but never even tried once.

Then there is DLD. He makes his living from Penis Enlargement. He is up front about it and sells a product. That is fine as well. We are "buying" DLD's knowledge, experience, and coaching/consulting service. I have no problems with that and demonstrat that by buying his product(s) and trying to emulate what he has done. And I am ALWAYS trying to push HIS ideas and thoughts to those asking for help/advice. DLD has never failed to help me or anyone out that I know of and is constantly looking to find new ways/exercises to help men reach there goals. He has done the work and there is nothing wrong with him being able to enjouy the fruits of his labor here at MOS.

This thread is titled "INTEGRITY". Think about that and who here has displayed that, and those that haven't. Pics or not. I try to judge INTEGRITY by ones actions, not gain claims.

kooky

12.5x7

Firstly I can say with utmost confidence that all the stats I have claimed as my own have been the truth, I have a massive girth although not as large as it was over one year ago because I didnt cement the gains and went from 7.5 to what I'm now in the very late 6 inch girth field.
I'm a candidate I suppose for whats being talked in this thread, I dont post pix with tape or rulers, so theirs always going to be that element of dougt but it doesnt matter to me because I have nuthing to lie for and this is just a forum and I really aint that arsed about it.
Belive whatever you want, I can only use my expertise from what I know and have gained to help others, if some dont belive myself with what I have gained than thats their issue because I really aint concerned about it.
The more success you get the more negativity you get, and even if some members or myself posted rulers and tape they'd still be some whom would be on their soap box, look at DLDs pix and videos, still they moan so whats the fuckin point? To me, my opinion its personnal choice and it really doesnt matter.
If you claim a 7 inch girth for example and you have a 5 inch girth, and you dont measure ect than thats you letting yourself down, I wont care and it wont affect me so anyone who lies like that is just pathetic and sad, needing a life really but what harm do they do? not much really.

Secondly with regards to the forums way of running, I would say its bad ATM and us mods are trying to solve things behind the scenes and try to get this freedom of speech limited so members cant discuss things like nazis, nigger this and nigger that, ect ect and they could even be a section for the 'DRAMA' of mos because it seems alot of you like drama, so it might be best for a section on that alone.
MOS is very, VERY leanient with its members so no one can moan about us mods, we dont abuse our power.....well what power we have, cos we aint much as the admin have most and it kinda sucks as we aint reaally modding but just observing.
Members need to open their eyes to the real world and realise their isnt a real Freedom of speech and thats just a cover to say 'anything' and it is, as a police officer I know all about it when I come against other races and muslim extremeists as they HIDE behind the freedom of speech, which is total bollocks and some members do the same here, its a cloak to do what you want, well say what you want and the MOS team are working to limit that, not to limit what you say but to limit the shiet that could be said such as racial hatred, abusive subject matter, gay-bashing ect ect.
You all know most forums, Penis Enlargement ones wouldnt tolerate what we do here.
Cheeky Cherry is strict and many members get banned for not agreeing with certain members, than theirs �other forum� which is strict as we know, Pride Penis was alright cos I was the admin their, but now its dead and is a inactive forum.
MOS is very tolerant, this is good but I do think we are too lenient and that needs to change, respect here has declined with mods getting abused quite freq' now...a example being Kong recently.
You cant have it both ways, a forum thats too soft with minimal rules wont survive in the long run.

Then there is Kong. There have been many times when Kong has gotten kind of irrational about his excitement over FR. In the end, how can anyone dispute ANY of his personal claims? Any time ANYONE has asked for help--yours truly included--he has ALWAYS helped and-- here is the integrity part-- never asked for one DIME in return. Kong probably has as much knowledge about FR than most on here, I am sure he could think of the greatest "NEW" FR device and find a market to sell them like hotcakes, but he never has. Nor has he pushed any FR product that I know of. He was/has been in a position that he could make a buck from FR but never even tried once.

Thank you very, very much, kooky.

kong1971 said:

I think it is arrogant, and maybe even its own form of denial, to think that you are one of the very few here who are honest while everyone else is full of crap or delusional. In fact, I know it is arrogant!

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So now I'M the one who is in denial and deluded? On the contrary, Kong old buddy. I wouldn't ever attempt to honestly sit here and tell you I don't have insecurities about my penis size, but I would wager than I have A LOT LESS than you and most of the others here who make the absurd claims I mentioned. Hey, at the very least I was balsy enough to put out an entire series of high resolution pics from many different fair angles, which clearly display my size such that no one can intelligently debate it. This is something that you have YET to do, despite your nearly 3000 posts, grandiose claims, and various grainy pictures that either don't have a ruler or have one with 2.5 inches unaccounted for at the base. I wasn't going to name names in this thread, but since you have dragged yourself into it I feel fine using this as my rebuttle to your comment about me being delusional and full of shit myself.

kong1971 said:

I'm not overly insecure

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Many of your posts would contradict this statement. Please don't argue or I might have to pull your card on this one.

kong1971 said:

or overly full of myself.

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Lol, no comment.

kong1971 said:

Unless we all get together in a big wharehouse and whip them out as a group and compare, we are all kind of under the honor system anyway.

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No. A few members including myself posted clear sets of pictures that do not mislead the viewer or leave anything up to the honor system. Yes, you could contend that the dick is not really mine in the pictures but if I was going to try and trick anyone into thinking I have a big dick I would have found someone with a size larger than mine, which is probably only slightly above the average, although certainly close enough that I would ocnsider myself average sized. When I do gain, I will post a clear picture from the same angles and it will be clear that they are the same penis.

kong1971 said:

Like I said, tho, everyone has their own viewpoint, and your opinion that the majority of us are self-deluded liars is just as valid as anyone else's. I just think people who feel that way are arrogant and insecure-- arrogant, by thinking you're somehow more intelligent and honest than everyone else, and insecure, by needing to think we're all littler than we say so you can feel like your ding-dong is bigger.

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Once again I have never claimed a big dick and peoples' claims do not make me insecure. All of the reputable surveys on penis size list a length in the upper 5's and a girth in the upper 4's, so I am slightly above average in size regardless of anything anyone here says and no one's claims have ever made me feel insecure about myself, especially when they can't even come close to backing up these claims.

kong1971 said:

I hail from a family of pretty hung men, so I've seen big dicks for real. They do exist outside the delusional universe of internet Penis Enlargement forums, as much as you'd rather think otherwise!

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I am one of the most realistic members on this forum and do not easily buy into idealistic pie-in-the-sky type thinking. I implore you to prove me wrong.

kong1971 said:

My mother always had a saying. When you point a finger at someone, there's three more pointing back at you. I think you're the one living in a fantasy world. In your fantasy world, everyone is lying except you!

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I am not surprised that you would attempt to project your delusions onto me. At least I have obviously come to terms with my size and am confident enough to post clear measured pics of it (once again something that you have never done). Now once again tell me I am the one who is insecure and full of shit?

koooky said:

I think this is a good thread in theory. But in the end, does it really matter?
For the time--and money--I have spent on Penis Enlargement I am sure I could make much bigger claims
for gains. Just about every major Penis Enlargement tool that has come down the pike I have tried and used for quite some time. You name it, I probably have bought one or tried to make one.

All in all though, I think the basics are more critical than anything else. I probably could have gained a lot more if I had stuck with the basics...or the phase1-4 workouts, than buy/making new items and then learning how to use them effectively.

In the long run, I really, really don't care if someone lies about his size/gains or not. Since this thread is titled "Integrity", what really, really pisses me off the most is someone INTENTIONALLY deceives or misleads others here for PROFIT. Than burns my ass up. Thinking about it, there is not ONE known pic of Bib and he claims to have made HUGE gains. I and alot of others do not question this though. WHY? Because there are so MANY others who have made nice gains using his hanger. I know from the work he put into designing and building his hanger that he has no reason to lie. He gave a reason a few times over at �other forum� why he doesn't want to post pics and that is fine. I can respect that and many others do as well. To my knowledge, Bib has never deceived anyone or mislead anyone in trying to sell his hangers.

Then there is Kong. There have been many times when Kong has gotten kind of irrational about his excitement over FR. In the end, how can anyone dispute ANY of his personal claims? Any time ANYONE has asked for help--yours truly included--he has ALWAYS helped and-- here is the integrity part-- never asked for one DIME in return. Kong probably has as much knowledge about FR than most on here, I am sure he could think of the greatest "NEW" FR device and find a market to sell them like hotcakes, but he never has. Nor has he pushed any FR product that I know of. He was/has been in a position that he could make a buck from FR but never even tried once.

Then there is DLD. He makes his living from Penis Enlargement. He is up front about it and sells a product. That is fine as well. We are "buying" DLD's knowledge, experience, and coaching/consulting service. I have no problems with that and demonstrat that by buying his product(s) and trying to emulate what he has done. And I am ALWAYS trying to push HIS ideas and thoughts to those asking for help/advice. DLD has never failed to help me or anyone out that I know of and is constantly looking to find new ways/exercises to help men reach there goals. He has done the work and there is nothing wrong with him being able to enjouy the fruits of his labor here at MOS.

This thread is titled "INTEGRITY". Think about that and who here has displayed that, and those that haven't. Pics or not. I try to judge INTEGRITY by ones actions, not gain claims.

kooky

12.5x7

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Kooky you seem reasonably in the middleground about this one, but I do disagree with you that people should only be held to a standard of honesty and and integrity if they are selling a product. Thousands of people frequent these forums and it sure would be inefficient and a total waste if they all dogmatically accepted a lot of the bullshit and lies that are common around here. If a man comes here, reads faulty information, follows a routine based upon it, and spends 2 hrs a day with it without gains for a year, that is an attrocity and his time would have been well spent elsewhere. People bitch and moan about the 65 bucks they wasted on the rop, but our time is expensive too damnit. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but based upon how much money I make at my job the cost of the time I devote to Penis Enlargement would add up to thousands of dollars per year. Now tell me that bullshit and lies only have ill effects when products are sold.

Basically, it goes like this. There isn't any way to prove anything on the internet except with the coveted, clear, measured pic.

Why are these important?

Well, like I said, on a forum full of guys claiming big gains and big sizes, there is piss poor evidence of any of this. This rings fishy and it makes the forum look weak. Like I said before - when I first looked into this I immediately thought "bullshit!" because there was just so little evidence of any real gains or even guys who claimed a big size. There were hundreds of grainy and obscured pictures that others poster would give huge props to, but as a skeptical person just elarning about it I was far from impressed.

But say a person decided to stick around and give it a shot? Low and behold, many of the msot active and supposedly big-gaining Penis Enlargement guys have no evidence of their gains or real size. It just hurts credibility.

Why should I believe it works or want to take advice from guys who I suspect are being deceptive or trumping up their size in any way? If I don't think they're legit, I'm sure as hell not going to consider any routines or knowledge they try to pass along to be very good.

Most people in this day and age own a digital camera, and those of us who have ever taken a picture of anything know that in reality it's not that hard to take a straight on, in frame picture of your johnson against a ruler. Shit, it can even be done flaccid like I did, very very easily.

The point is, for all this chit chat, theorizing, and sizing up around here, there's damn little evidence that many are what they claim. In a way this doesn't bother me a ton, because I know all I need to know about those individuals and what they have to say, but it makes the forum worse overall.

This thread is basically people arguing that we should either be skeptical, focused on Penis Enlargement, and keep working to better udnerstand penis size and how to improve it, or, continue the status quo of realatively weak information, unsubstantiated gains, and more of an internet "hangout/bullshitting station" than a forum focused around dick-related issues. It's never going to be totally on the ball 100% of the time or anything, I doubt anybody wants that, but I think we can do a whole lot better around here.

Swank said:

Most people in this day and age own a digital camera, and those of us who have ever taken a picture of anything know that in reality it's not that hard to take a straight on, in frame picture of your johnson against a ruler. Shit, it can even be done flaccid like I did, very very easily.

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It is not taking the clear picture that is difficult. Most members here have a size that they claim. Often when a member is exagerating, they have told the lie so much that they begin to believe it. Say for example I start claiming 8 inches and start believing it after all the people mindlessly stroke me off over how much of an inspiration I am (BTW, I consider this to be very detrimental to the forum. This attitude where people are lulled into a false sense of security about the legitamacy of their claims is probably a major factor in reinforcing the lies these members believe). Now I think that I am 8 inches and when I go to take the picture it comes out as 6.75 and I get pissed off over "how hard is to get an accurate shot." It is not hard at all to get an accurate shot, but it can be very difficult at times to get the picture to display your dick size as you want it to be, as opposed to what it is.

Swank said:

This thread is basically people arguing that we should either be skeptical, focused on Penis Enlargement, and keep working to better udnerstand penis size and how to improve it, or, continue the status quo of realatively weak information, unsubstantiated gains, and more of an internet "hangout/bullshitting station" than a forum focused around dick-related issues. It's never going to be totally on the ball 100% of the time or anything, I doubt anybody wants that, but I think we can do a whole lot better around here.

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Agreed. It almost seems like a support group where guys go just to get reassurance that they have huge dicks from others who suffer the same insecurities. When people like me question one of these members, the rest get upset because they represent the very same lie that they are living and it bursts their bubble as well.

Skepdick said:

Kooky you seem reasonably in the middleground about this one, but I do disagree with you that people should only be held to a standard of honesty and and integrity if they are selling a product. Thousands of people frequent these forums and it sure would be inefficient and a total waste if they all dogmatically accepted a lot of the bullshit and lies that are common around here. If a man comes here, reads faulty information, follows a routine based upon it, and spends 2 hrs a day with it without gains for a year, that is an attrocity and his time would have been well spent elsewhere. People bitch and moan about the 65 bucks they wasted on the rop, but our time is expensive too damnit. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but based upon how much money I make at my job the cost of the time I devote to Penis Enlargement would add up to thousands of dollars per year. Now tell me that bullshit and lies only have ill effects when products are sold.

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Those are really good points Skep. And you are right. I am trying my best to find the reasonable middle ground here.

You are right about the guy coming in and reading faulty info. But according to your supposed scenario, that guy would have to have read very little about a very specific subject here and never posted any questions in order to have been totally mislead about any benefits. How many people do you know that would spend 2 hours a day on something that could be as potentially harmfull as Penis Enlargement without asking a few questions? To be even more specific, something as dangerous as someone hanging weights of their dick?

The point is, I could tell someone my routine, I could tell them EXACTLTY what items I used and how often I used them, I could even post 15 videos and 1000's of pics documenting each part of my workout, and there would still be people who aren't satisfied or people who are going to be doing things that are totally ineffective.

What I am getting at is I think we--the main poster around here--the key majority---do a good job of policing what is going on. And yeah, I even agree to a certain extent. But once again, in the long run, does it really matter? Most of the guys who claim gains do so based on what we know to be sound, solid Penis Enlargement theory. Not hooking a 9-volt to your nuts and taking 15 pills a day.


kook

13.5x8 inches of hand made giant cock