Yet another FREAKKYYY thread- possible Shortcut to Gains?

[Vaseline_Knight]

Hey everyone

I was 'lurking' around and found an older thread discussing steroids and connective Tissues,

http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16596

It is unfortunate that not that much attention was paid to the thread, as Sikdogg had posted some interesting information there. Here is an article I found when I researched this matter.

Problem: I've had some nice newbie gains but I cant break past my plateau.

Concern: Have I maxed out my Penis Enlargement gains?

Possible Answer: When we first start Penis Enlargement'ing, we're applying force to connective tissues that have never before been exposed to any siginificant force. The ligaments are therefore weak, and easily deform giving us almost instant gains. Our body, adapts to this stress by possibly strengthening the ligaments, and hence putting an end to the 'newbie gains'.

Earlier last month, we were talking of a drug called Potaba, which could possibly 'relax' the collagenous tissue leading to easier gains.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the effectivity of Winstrol, an extremely mild steroid, on the ligaments and collegenous tissue and its possible relevance to Penis Enlargement. Although it may not be trivial, this would not benefit length alone, but the tunica being made of collagenous tissue itself could mean a possible potential in girth gains as well.

Here's the article. Enjoy.

-VK

p.s. This forum changes all the l o l 's in s t a n o z o l o l to lol and makes it look like a clown of an article. Everytime you see stanozolol just read it:

s t a n o z o l o l or Winstrol

Title: Stimulation of collagen synthesis by the anabolic steroid s t a n o z o l o l.

Researchers: Falanga V, Greenberg AS, Zhou L, Ochoa SM, Roberts AB, Falabella A, Yamaguchi Y; University of Miami School of Medicine, Department of Dermatology, Miami, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Florida, USA.

Source: J Invest Dermatol 1998 Dec;111(6):1193-7

Summary: In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 micrograms per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability but enhanced collagen synthesis in a dose-dependent manner. Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels. There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta-1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta-1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids.




Potentially important information in this section


Discussion: I must first acknowledge that the commonly held belief is that anabolic steroids predispose an athlete to tendon rupture. This conclusion is drawn from animal studies showing that some steroids produce a larger, stiffer tendon in rats and that these steroid-induced tendons "fail" before the tendons from the control animals. The term fail refers to the breaking point.

The interesting thing about the present study is that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) had a different effect than testosterone. If you are a regular reader of Meso-Rx you should be well aware that not all steroids act in the same manner. And that because of subtle differences in there molecular structure they are able to elicit different responses. For example, Deca seems to act primarily through the androgen receptor (AR) where as Dianabol has effects beyond those associated with the AR.

Because synthetic steroids have differ in their chemical properties it should not be surprising that testosterone did not have the same effect as Winstrol. Winstrol increased collagen synthesis as opposed to testosterone which did not in this study. Interpreting the results of this study are more difficult than simply describing them. Other researchers have suggested that steroids cause a rapid increase in protein synthesis within tendon fibroblasts which results in fibroids or fibrous nodules within the tendon (Michna,1988). These fibroids alter the mechanical properties of the tendon perhaps predisposing it to rupture. It is also noted that during short term use of steroids there is an alteration in the alignment of collagen fibers which may also lead to rupture. Interestingly these alterations in collagen metabolism are transient with markers of collagen turnover returning more or less to baseline after 3-4 weeks of steroid administration (Karpakka,1992). These same researchers noted that low dose anabolics effect primarily muscle collagenous tissue with tendon being effected only at higher doses (i.e. 5 times the therapeutic dose) which would more closely represent what is needed by bodybuilders to put on mass.

The question remains, dose this mean that Winstrol will actually help prevent tendon injury or will it lead to bigger yet stiffer tendons prone to injury? It is difficult to take animal research and extrapolate the results to humans. Stanozolol is used therapeutically in humans to treat a variety of connective tissue and vascular disorders and its clinical effects suggest that it can modulate connective tissue breakdown in people. Despite being labeled as "ineffective" by many bodybuilders it is very popular among athletes. As with most hormones, dosage plays a role in what effects are seen, be they positive or negative. Hopefully future studies will shed light on the therapeutic effects of different steroids on tendons in humans.


References:

Michna H Appearance and ultrastructure of intranuclear crystalloids in tendon fibroblasts induced by an anabolic steroid hormone in the mouse. Acta Anat (Basel) 1988;133(3):247-50

Karpakka JA, Pesola MK, Takala TE. The effects of anabolic steroids on collagen synthesis in rat skeletal muscle and tendon. A preliminary report. Am J Sports Med 1992 May-Jun;20(3):262-6

 

[DriverNuts]

It's a little dangerous to call Winstrol a "mild" steroid. I know lots of people who've had their hair RAPIDLY RECEDE while taking winstrol to "cut up".

Also it's illegal.

But definitely interesting to explore further!!

 

[quijjiboo]

You never know with something like this.. could go either way.

 

[EVO]

so if i understand this correctly the winstrol INCREASES collagen synthesis (making your tendons, ligaments bigger) but because they are larger and stiffer - they will fail easier!?
my first thought is that we dont want our ligs to "fail" we want them to stretch past what they are used to, if they are larger and thicker - wouldnt this be harder to do?
another thing is that they suggest it can modulate connective tissue breakdown, although they dont exactly know if it will make it easier to cause injury or prevent it

 

[Vaseline_Knight]

It's a little dangerous to call Winstrol a "mild" steroid. I know lots of people who've had their hair RAPIDLY RECEDE while taking winstrol to "cut up".

Also it's illegal.

But definitely interesting to explore further!!

Well all steroids are illegal. Furthermore, Winstrol from what I've read is one of the mildest steroids out there. I strongly doubt that your friends' receding hairlines were a sole result of winstrol though.

It's important to know this, even though unrelated to Penis Enlargement: Steroids do not cause baldness, however, they can speed the process up for those who are going to loose it anyway. Steroids convert largely into DHT, this is what causes hair loss to quicken. Winstrol does not convert to DHT. However it is amongst the class of steroids that are derivatives of DHT, and they can also promote baldness over long term use.

Anyways, we're talking about the wrong head here .

so if i understand this correctly the winstrol INCREASES collagen synthesis (making your tendons, ligaments bigger) but because they are larger and stiffer - they will fail easier!?
my first thought is that we dont want our ligs to "fail" we want them to stretch past what they are used to, if they are larger and thicker - wouldnt this be harder to do?
another thing is that they suggest it can modulate connective tissue breakdown, although they dont exactly know if it will make it easier to cause injury or prevent it

That's basically what I want to tackle in this thread. I remember bib stressing that 'we want the ligaments and connective tissue to 'fail' under the weight of hanging'. In a shoulder, if a ligament or tendon fails, the shoulder will be misaligned and as a result one will get pain in the shoulder from the bones rubbing against each other and the condition is called tendonitis. I've rarely heard of anabolic bodybuilders who's tendons or ligaments got RIPPenis EnlargementD OFF, but I know many of them have tendonitis. so if 'fail' means getting severed, then maybe it's not the best thing, but if 'fail' means getting past the point of plastic deformation, then maybe just maybe this is right up our alley.

p.s. Hydromaxm even if 'fail' does mean the suspensory ligaments getting severed, then we've just achieved what a $5000 penis surgery would offer :blush: :cool:

 

[goldmember]

Maybe you could try this out, VK. But, the reading said high dosage for effects on ligaments, remember. So be careful if you do.

 

[Vaseline_Knight]

Maybe you could try this out, VK. But, the reading said high dosage for effects on ligaments, remember. So be careful if you do.

well, I haven't yet tried steroids, and most likely never will. My technique in bodybuilding, and decipline in nutrition makes it almost an exact science to me. If I want to focus on a certain muscle group, I know exacatly what to do, and if I want to bulk up/cut down, I know exactly how to eat to achieve the results I'm looking for. Hence I don't need to take Steroids to help me achieve my bodybuilding goals.

Penis Enlargement, however is different, and at that unpredictable. It is no debate that its the physiological (and mental but we're not talking about that here) difference between people that differentiates them and puts them in the easy and hard gainer categories.

I'm in no way an advocate of steroid use, but i would definately consider doing a cycle of a steroid if it gave me the edge to add an inch or 2 in length by hanging/manual stretching. I'm just trying to get a discussion going to understand more about Penis Enlargement than we already do.

you know quite a lot about steroids. What's your input on this?

-VK

 

[EVO]

the ONLY time i have made any gains what so ever is when i was on steroids. i was taking decanoate and was growing at a rate of .15/month (about, but it was pretty consistent) my gains then stopped after gaining an inch but i was still on steroids. newbie gains? could be - but it took me 8 months to do :s. whether it is significant i dont know, just saying what i experienced.

 

[spinner2]

The only way to figure this out is to test it. I haven't conditioned my tissues enough to be a good subject, but I'm sure there are lots out there who could test this. What are costs like? I remember POTABA was very expensive, and I doubt anything illegal would be much cheaper.

 

[EVO]

found a good place to get paba from http://www.natural-complementary-medicine.com/Detail.bok?no=15

as of april/may im going to start on 5g of paba/ day as well as taking viagra and nitrix (bodybuilders NO supplement) before i go to bed. try this for 3 months and see where it gets me (ill have a hanger by then - hanging SO ) .
as for the steroids, cant see myself doing them, kinda wanna keep it natural

 

[Rude_God]

damn, those lol's make it really difficult to focus on reading that article! lol

 

[Vaseline_Knight]

the ONLY time i have made any gains what so ever is when i was on steroids. i was taking decanoate and was growing at a rate of .15/month (about, but it was pretty consistent) my gains then stopped after gaining an inch but i was still on steroids. newbie gains? could be - but it took me 8 months to do :s. whether it is significant i dont know, just saying what i experienced.

ya those gains probably had nothing to do with the steroids you were on.

you know what's important to me is those who've made newbie gains, and platuead and then gained again. That counts as gain to me. more or less everyone is able to make newbie gains. you should definately keep us updated on the potaba and how you gain while you're on it!

 

[sikdogg]

As i understand your posts... Winstrol's ability to stimulate collagen synthesis would strengthen the ligs and tunica. Not necessarily what we want... i would think that we want something that will slow down collagen synthesis. In the Penis Enlargement patent document, one or two subjects used testosterone as a potentiator. I wondered how testosterone would help. At first i assumed that its aromatization the DHT was what did it, but maybe i was wrong... maybe it was testosterone's ability to reduce collagen synthesis that made it a good potentiator.

This topic is definitely something worth researching further...

 

[Vaseline_Knight]

As i understand your posts... Winstrol's ability to stimulate collagen synthesis would strengthen the ligs and tunica. Not necessarily what we want... i would think that we want something that will slow down collagen synthesis. In the Penis Enlargement patent document, one or two subjects used testosterone as a potentiator. I wondered how testosterone would help. At first i assumed that its aromatization the DHT was what did it, but maybe i was wrong... maybe it was testosterone's ability to reduce collagen synthesis that made it a good potentiator.

This topic is definitely something worth researching further...

Yes you're correct. Testostrone, from what I've read, increases protein synthesis and decreases collegenous tissue synthesis. Winstrol, is said to yeild longer and yet easier to fail ligaments and tendons. I was thinking along the same lines as you until I read that. And wouldn't we want that? longer and easier to fail suspensory ligaments?

 

[Vaseline_Knight]

Deca = good for ligaments/tendons..

elaborate

 

[sikdogg]

Deca is generally considered good for joints and not necessarily for ligs and tendon.

 

[prince Albert]

Anavar primobolon are mild steroids,most lads only run winny for 6 weeks at most as its considered quite harsh on the liver and it can cause rapid hair loss in those predisposed to male pattern baldness,stiff sore joints are common.

Ive used oral winny 3 times at 50-75mg ed and its great for conditioning,hardness and vascularity go through the roof,the downside is the stiff joints,it can be really painfull,shoulders and elbows in my case,luckily Turanabol is now available in the uk which gives similar results without the sides.

As for it helping with pe i don't no,2 of the times i used it were during my 2 year dry spell were i saw no gains.

 

[sikdogg]

I believe Winny's liver toxicity is not too bad... compared to very mild oral like var it is much more hepatoxic but compared to drol, it's considered mild.