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prince Albert said:

The thing i find funny is you are taking the training advice of coaches who are juicers,louis simmons has admitted to being on gear soild for 29 years,westside lifters are notorious for there drug use.

I don't need to google bobby pandour to no who he is,yes you can get the odd one or two individuals who are lucky to be gifted with exceptional genetics but if you were one of them you would no it already.

Just looking at your pics and to be honest apart from your legs you don't even look like you lift weights,195lb at 12%,you must be using the calipers wrong because you are alot more than 12% i would say 16% at least,you might of gained 25lb but it isn't muscle sorry.

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Well believe what you want, but I lost fat between the two sets of pics, and weighed 16 lbs more. I'm now 25 lbs more but my BF% is a bit higher than it was in that pic (like I already said), although not as high as when I started. But I'm not going to argue with you about that, because you seem to be taking personal shots to make me look bad. I already said my body wasn't anything to be impressed about. I'm making good progress, but apparently not enough. What kind of progress are you expecting in 3.5 months (the time between pics)?

That said, I've done a ton of research since I started lifting. What I'm doing is working very well for me (regardless of your opinion of my body after only 3.5 months), and I'm not willing to change it drastically just yet because I really like this kind of training and the results it's given me. I've gained a significant amount of muscle. My total on the big 3 is over 1000 after only 4 months (the last time I maxed). And for a good portion of that time, I wasn't even training for size, only strength. I don't see how the style of training you're recommending me will give me the same type of gains (maybe muscular gains, but not strength).

As far as "taking advice from juicers," what's your point there? You've admitted to juicing, so according to your logic I shouldn't take your advice either. Anyway, Waterbury and Thibaudeau (the two that have influenced me the most from that list) are both natural. I'm really sick of the steroid debate. If you don't believe good gains can be made naturally, it's not my problem. You can continue to rely on chemicals for your gains (not that I have a problem with roids, but I believe they should be used only after you've "maxed out" your natural gains), and I'll continue to make gains naturally on what has been proven to work over and over for natural trainees (namely, high volume strength training with adequate nutrition, and a 3 day per week full body routine with heavy compound movements).

dee3186 said:

Oh i didnt see those pics i just saw the first one, the advice you have been giving seems to be legit from were i have read it other than here but you need to switch your routine because it looks like you have no muscle especially in your chest you need to cut now your bodyfat look way to high once you get rid of that your gonna look skinny. I tried bulking then i was gonna run about 10lbs off to be solid muscle its not as easy as i thought so you should just stick to building muscle instead of bulking.

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You tell me to cut, then you say I need to build muscle, but don't bulk?? Which is it?

My bodyfat wasn't very high at all in those pics, it must be bad lighting (the flash doesn't work on that camera so it's a little blurry). I know my pecs were "lagging," but remember, for most of the time I've been training I was more focused on strength than looks. I still am, but I'm also focusing on the look now.

This thread has turned from training advice to personal attacks and critiques. I'm not going to defend my progress any further. I am a beginner, so you can't expect staggering results. The numbers are there, and if you don't believe me there's nothing I can do to convince you (referring in general, not to anyone specifically). Let's get back to the topic. What I look like after 4 months of training has nothing to do with what works and what doesn't. Let's just stick to that because this is going nowhere.

Hey 9, I can see the work you've put in is paying off. Keep on doing what you're doing and you'll be looking like the Incredible Hulk pretty soon.

9c9 you admit you are a beginner then dismiss other types of training as crap,then claim your type of training produces results,you post pics of steroid users to back up your claims and say they are examples of what is achievable natty.

I wasn't making a personal attack on you simply pointing out that your physique doesn't match your claims.

Your lifts are good,legs can see an improvement but sorry if it hurts your feelings your upper body looks untrained,12% bodyfat you should be able to see the abs coming through chest should be starting to show definition and shoulders and arms will be visualy hard.you also appear to have mild gyno but it could just be fat.

If you are happy following that type of routine fine but don't dismiss other types of training that you have never tried simply because you have read a little bit on the internet.

Like i said its not my intention to hurt your feelings,i'm only being honest the routine you are following might be good for strength but it doesn't seem to be producing the result physique wise.

Fair enough bro, I took it too personally.

I've said in this thread, the type of training you've mentioned is good for hypertrophy, but there's not going to be as much strength gain as with my type of training. I'm after strength just as much as hypertrophy, so that's the type of program I'm following. It's been working for my goals up until recently. The next program I'll be following is a little more hypertrophy-oriented, but it still uses most of the same principles I've mentioned (high-volume strength training, etc).

Again, sorry for taking it too personally.

9C9,i sometimes forget that some members on forums are still quite young and i can be quite blunt at times,its not nice having someone criticize your physique so if i did hurt your feelings i apologise.

If you keep training long term you will probably find you change the way you train from time to time and what works for you now may not produce results in the future,keep an open mind and don't dismiss something off hand simply because it doesn't fit with your current training style.

You didn't hurt my feelings, I know I have a long way to go. No hard feelings bro.

9cyclops9 said:

You tell me to cut, then you say I need to build muscle, but don't bulk?? Which is it?

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My bad when i was thinking bulking i was thinking getting big with muscle and fat which i would be avoiding with that bf% and instead try to cut and just build muscle.

9cyclops9 said:

This thread has turned from training advice to personal attacks and critiques. I'm not going to defend my progress any further. I am a beginner, so you can't expect staggering results. The numbers are there, and if you don't believe me there's nothing I can do to convince you (referring in general, not to anyone specifically). Let's get back to the topic. What I look like after 4 months of training has nothing to do with what works and what doesn't. Let's just stick to that because this is going nowhere.

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You taking it the wrong way, i was just shocked i thought i was taking advice from someone looking like prince albert thats been at bb for years, If you bf is around 12% i need to get mines checked sooner because i can see all my muscles i was thinking i was 11-12% i want to see the lines in them thought so under 8% is were i need to be.

Yes, I'm relatively new to all of this, but like I said I've done a lot of research. Any of the advice I've given, I can back up.

Can you give me a list of bb webbsites you use iv seen you mention a few.

www.bodybuilding.com (I only use the powerlifting forum there)
www.t-nation.com
www.ironmind.com (great books, I own several of them, and MILO is a good mag, although pricey)
www.elitefts.com
www.defrancostraining.com
www.fortifiediron.com (mainly the olympic lifting forum)
www.gripboard.com (excellent info on grip training)
www.danjohn.org/coach (great oly lifting and general advice)

Along with books by Brooks Kubik, John Brookfield, Jim ScHydromaxitz, Randall Strossen, Dan John, etc. I've read a lot on diet by Dr. John Berardi, along with a few others, and have found his principles to be healthy and work very well.