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Only two of my friends no i use gear several others have asked me and i have denied it,just because you are friends with someone doesn't mean they will admit to using gear,reason being most people even those who train have a misguided negative attitude to steroid users.Once you admit to using gear people do start to treat you differently,example i lost my temper with a guy who cut me up in the car and one of my mates straight away said,so thats what roid rage is like,i wasn't even on a cycle.

Steroid use is much more prevalent than people realise even at a low level in all competitive sports,wether drug tested or not,few year back there were table tennis players testing positive,couple of u.k soccer players tested positive.

You have designer labs making gear that carn't be tested.

I would say the vast majority of steroid users would denie using if you asked them to the face.

You posted a pic of a guy who is an obvious steroid user and then made the claim that this is attainable natty which it isn't,not having a go at you mate just being honest,i had an argument with some guy who was adamant that mike mentzner was natty because he had read it in his book so it must be true,ive seen newbies really shocked to find out arnie used gear.

Yes you can get big natural,yes you can get low bodyfat natural,but to get big and cut then no.

Like I said, you still haven't done anything to convince me that I can't achieve my goals of being big, strong, lean, and athletic through the methods I mentioned. So I'm not really sure what you're arguing. If Gulledge uses steroids, that doesn't prove anything except that he uses steroids. It isn't evidence that you can't get big and lean without steroids. Show me some proof of that, and I'll shut up. And no, anecdotal evidence doesn't work, and neither does saying that so-and-so used roids.

Let's see some proof that I'm wrong.

Ive just posted a pic up of a guy who has been training natty for 13 years,even if you brought his b/f up to 10% which i would class as lean he still wouldn't be more than 12.5 stone,thats proof isn't it.

Just to add if you check his routines out they all focus on the big basic lifts.

I no i'm not going to convince you so if your still posting on mos when you manage to achieve your goal will you please post a pic so i can see what you define as big and lean cheers.

No, that isn't proof. That's one skinny natural bodybuilder. I mean documented, scientific proof that you can't get big and lean without roids. My lean body mass is 170lbs right now. And this is after only a few months of training. So one competitive BBer that can't manage to weigh more than 175 (12.5 stone) even with 10% bodyfat (if I dropped to 10% I'd weigh 190) is not proof at all.

If Steve Reeves could weigh 215 and be this lean 50 years ago with the training and nutritional knowledge that was available then, I'm sure I could do so now. Oh, but it's impossible to get big and lean without roids, right? I'm sure Reg Park was on roids in the early 50s, right?

Might come as a shock mate but drug use started in the mid 40s-50s,have a look at the pic and decided for yourself weather reg parks was natty or not,just to help you out dave draper and arnie have both admitted drug use,reg and arnie were also very close freinds and as arnie says steroid use was no big deal back then.

This is pointless and a waste of time. Show me proof of your side of the argument and we'll talk. You still have yet to show me any proof that I can't get big, strong, lean and athletic without steroids. No such proof exists. Here are some pics to consider:

So you say reg park is natty i show you a pic that pretty much proves he isn't and you still ask for proof,the pics you have just posted are ment to show what,i would say all of them are high level athletes and as such use some sort of performing enchancing drug.

Ok pics here of bodybuilders from the 40s so drug free for definate.not very big are they.

9C I dont even know why your getting so angry over it. Theres no scientific proof we can show you. Im assuming that Albert and I have been in the "game" so to speak and studied body building a lot longer than you. We are just giving you the low down of how things really are. If you want the cold hard truth of why you cant be lean and big personally is because you dont have the genetics for it. You might get there after youve spent about 5-10 years building on solid muscle that isnt going away anytime soon and then following a very strict diet. The thing is with powerlifters and such that you claim being big strong and lean. Number 1 like it was said, a lot of them juice, but on the other hand think about it. Most powerlifters are genetically strong people, and Id say a good portion of those poeple have natural good pysiques. So genetics is what plays a role in that. Look at black people, for instance. Im not being racist either as Id love to have me some black genetics. I see tons of black people who probably have never lifted a weight a day in their life, that look like they are regulars in the gym. My point is YES some a small minority of people can be somewhat big and lean naturally, but its such a small percentage of people, and I can tell you that you are not one of them.

Oh and Id like to see some of your definitons of lean. 10% body fat while good, isnt what id considered totally lean. You're still gonna be a bit soft at 10%. Now if you wanna get big and still be kinda smooth and soft naturally then yea you can do that.

PA, I've already dropped the Reg Park thing. Neither of us has any proof one way or the other. Pics of his physique don't prove anything. Pics of some guys from the 40s don't prove anything. I could show you pics of Bobby Pandour (google it), who died in 1920, who's muscular development could rival many of the BB competitors in the 50s.

I'm already bigger than some of those guys from the 40s, so does that mean I take roids? No. I'm obviously not going to convince you that you can get big and lean without roids because you refuse to think I might be right and you might be wrong. It's pointless for us to continue this argument, so I vote to drop it.

franchise, what makes you think I'm angry? Besides, no matter how long you've been in "the game," that doesn't make you an expert on building muscle. Why should I listen to your opinion rather than the educated theories and practical advice of such men as Siff, Zatsiorski, and well-reputed coaches such as Waterbury, Thibaudeau, DeFranco, Tate, and Simmons, and nutritionists such as Berardi, Lowery, and Barr?

Furthermore, what makes the two of you think that my approach won't work? Have you tried it? If what you're doing isn't working for you, quit blaming other people's roid usage and your genetics, and try something new! You might surprise yourself.

Sorry man I know what I do works. I just know the reality of the limitation of genetics for normal people.

thefranchise said:

Sorry man I know what I do works. I just know the reality of the limitation of genetics for normal people.

Click to expand...

So in the same thread, you say that you can't get big and lean without roids, then you go on to say that what you're doing works. So you leave me with only a few possible conclusions:

1. What you're doing works (and thus, you can get big and lean without roids)

2. What you're doing doesn't really work (and thus, doesn't work without roids. Although there's still the possibility that something out there works without roids, you just aren't doing it)

3. You're actually on roids, and this is why what you're doing is working

4. "This works for me" doesn't mean "this will make me big and lean." In other words, your goals are different than mine, and you're not really trying to get big and lean, and your training program helps you stay "not big and lean" (I doubt this option is true).


So which is it?

My goal is just to be bigger and have good muscular development and shape. Im water retentive and have a bit of excess fat on me from creatine and carb loading. Nothing major but im not lean. Trust me youll soon turn to juice , to get the look you want. Then youll come and be like you guys were right . After you try and do it naturally and lose so much strength and size.

Hey cyclops i was browsing around and saw your post http://www.mattersofsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17430&page=1&highlight=starting+back+pic with all the advice you have giving me have you made any progress yet and wat was your bf % in that pic.

thefranchise said:

My goal is just to be bigger and have good muscular development and shape. Im water retentive and have a bit of excess fat on me from creatine and carb loading. Nothing major but im not lean. Trust me youll soon turn to juice , to get the look you want. Then youll come and be like you guys were right . After you try and do it naturally and lose so much strength and size.

Click to expand...

So I'd be correct in assuming you're on steroids? I don't think there's anything wrong with steroids, but I personally wouldn't try them. However, I wonder if you ever tried something similar to what I'm doing before you decided to juice. Or if you've ever tried it at all. And I'm wondering what makes you think that my approach won't work. I've gained 25 lbs of muscle in the last few months, but you seem to maintain that it isn't possible.

dee3186, keep in mind that I've only been at this since April. In that time, however, I have made a lot of progress. I can now squat and deadlift nearly 400 lbs each, my bench press is approaching 250, and I've gained around 25 lbs of muscle. Between the pics on page 1 and the ones on page 2, I gained 16 lbs, and since the pics on page 2 of that thread, I've gained an additional 10 lbs, most of that being muscle. My bodyfat percentage went down from what it originally was (not sure of the exact number, but probably around 18%) to 11%, but it's now up to 15-16% due to poor diet while I was on semester break. If you're doubting any of the advice I've given you (totally understandable as I'm not extremely experienced), let me know what it is and I'll point you to where I got my information, then you can decide for yourself. But I can guarantee that every bit of advice I've given can be backed up if need be.

No i dont doubt you all the info you have gave me i found to be true when i was researching i just noticed that that was a while back and thought you were ripped all up now.

I'm working on it. :D

Actually, I'm trying to put on some more muscle mass before I focus on getting ripped up.

Also do i have to buy one of those devices to find out my bf% or is there another way i dont know if they got one at the gym.

If they don't have it at the gym, check out this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/bdymsr.htm

The thing i find funny is you are taking the training advice of coaches who are juicers,louis simmons has admitted to being on gear soild for 29 years,westside lifters are notorious for there drug use.

I don't need to google bobby pandour to no who he is,yes you can get the odd one or two individuals who are lucky to be gifted with exceptional genetics but if you were one of them you would no it already.

Just looking at your pics and to be honest apart from your legs you don't even look like you lift weights,195lb at 12%,you must be using the calipers wrong because you are alot more than 12% i would say 16% at least,you might of gained 25lb but it isn't muscle sorry.

Oh i didnt see those pics i just saw the first one, the advice you have been giving seems to be legit from were i have read it other than here but you need to switch your routine because it looks like you have no muscle especially in your chest you need to cut now your bodyfat look way to high once you get rid of that your gonna look skinny. I tried bulking then i was gonna run about 10lbs off to be solid muscle its not as easy as i thought so you should just stick to building muscle instead of bulking.