How to convince a religious girl...

Cyclops is telling the truth, other religions are exclusive to who can and can't get into heaven. There are buddhists sects that say if you are outside of a certain caste you can not achieve nirvana, and the same is true in Hinduism. There is an essential aspect to all religions that is strickingly different from Christianity, none seem to explain sin and how to reach God while still being in Sin. At the same time none of the central figures of the world religions ever claimed to be God. Again, i am asking you to explain what you believe as opposed to saying something is just stupid and brush it off. I would rather know what you think and what you believe than to have a bunch of flaming going on.

millionman said:

Cyclops is telling the truth, other religions are exclusive to who can and can't get into heaven. There are buddhists sects that say if you are outside of a certain caste you can not achieve nirvana, and the same is true in Hinduism. There is an essential aspect to all religions that is strickingly different from Christianity, none seem to explain sin and how to reach God while still being in Sin. At the same time none of the central figures of the world religions ever claimed to be God. Again, i am asking you to explain what you believe as opposed to saying something is just stupid and brush it off. I would rather know what you think and what you believe than to have a bunch of flaming going on.

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im not quite sure on my beleifs but i'll have a stab at explaining them. i do believe in an afterlife and a god, but i don't believe in religion. religion only creates what it stands against. i think that everyone should have their own unique beliefs, and in a perfect world people would always talk to each other about their beleifs so they can constantly change and improve their opinion.

but some things should be intrinsicaly universal, such as everyone is equal.

Ok, I see what you are saying. I don't believe in religion either. Simply as you said religion says do this but not this, this is acceptable but if you do this you'll never be good enough to enter Heaven. Here's where things become very interesting. Jesus Christ never said do this this and this to get to my father, but to accept me and receive ever lasting life. That was all, no religion, no it is absolutley necessary for you to not dance with women, or don't drink ever, or hey you can't play music in church. Christ simply came to spread the word of the Father and to die and be raised again on the third day, which symbolizes our defeat over the grave and Hell, because He actually took the keys to the gates of Hell himself. You may say that's a story, but nothing has ever been more true than this. If you want my personal testimony you can PM me, I may actually post it in the deep thoughts forum sometime this week. You may not consider this a big deal, but I promise it is a huge deal for you to seek this out, it may change your life, I say may, it will change your life from the inside out. I've been there, and I stand accountable for the things I've said throughout this entire post. If I have done anything or slandered anyone, or have not spoken the word in Love and in truth then I am not who I claim to be, but if I have spoken no ill will then who here can say that I am deceitful. The only benefit to anyone who listens to the words I've spoken is to receive the truth and be freed from the burdens of the world. If anyone does not have access to the bible you can go to bible.com and look up verses and even things you may have heard by word or phrase. Check it out and if anyone has any question feel free to contact me, whichever way you choose to.

Shithead said:

im not quite sure on my beleifs but i'll have a stab at explaining them. i do believe in an afterlife and a god, but i don't believe in religion. religion only creates what it stands against. i think that everyone should have their own unique beliefs, and in a perfect world people would always talk to each other about their beleifs so they can constantly change and improve their opinion.

but some things should be intrinsicaly universal, such as everyone is equal.

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So it took all this to find that our beliefs are similar. I, like you, don't believe in "religion" as such, but I am a Christian. I don't, however, associate myself with any particular branch of Christianity. I was raised a Southern Baptist and I now attend a Presbyterian church because of all the churches I've been to in Boston, this particular church coincides with my beliefs the most. But I don't claim to be a Baptist or a Presbyterian, just a Christian. And the fundamental, basic belief (and the only belief required) to be a Christian is that Christ was the Son of God, and that his death and resurrection paid the price of our sins. Every other issue that gets argued amongst Christians is debateable, and most are very petty, but for whatever reason these small issues cause big problems, and this is the reason for the denominational system.

Some things in the Bible are very clear, black and white. Such as do not kill, lie, steal, etc. Some things are more vague, and are subject to personal conviction. For instance, I have no problem whatsoever with a little gambling, such as a $10 poker game. My fiance, however, feels gambling is bad because it can lead to some huge problems. I agree that it can, but there are certain types of people that can't handle just $10 here and there. It becomes addicting, and that's when it becomes wrong in my mind.

I didn't mean to make this such a long post, I'm just trying to demonstrate that our beliefs are very similar. I think a lot of people, and perhaps you also, Shithead, have a skewed image of Christianity. The idea of personal conviction defining sin is something that a lot of people don't realize is a teaching in Christianity. The Apostle Paul said "All is permissible for me, but not all is beneficial." He also taught that while there may be things that you don't think are wrong, but if you doing these things will cause someone else to stumble, then you should do it. I think most people get the idea that Christians have a list of rules for us to follow, or that we all follow exactly what the Pope says is right and wrong. But that isn't what Christianity is about. It isn't about a rulebook, or making brownie points with God to get into heaven, or how many good deeds you did or didn't do. It has only to do with accepting Christ as your Savior, and everything else is minor in comparison.

im not completely sure on my opinions when it comes to jesus, i do believe he existed, but for him to be the son of god... it just doesn't sit well with me, it implies god has all these limits, like he's a consious entity, and other such finite aspects. which i don't beleive.

How would you say he has finite aspects by becoming a man....Jesus did amazing things, like healing a paralytic, the blind being able to see, feeding 5,ooo people with 3 loaves of bread and two fish. Does that seem like it would be finite, or limitless??? God is a conscious entity....I'm not sure this is what you were reaching for....so maybe elaborate on your point slightly.

What I have a problem with, and I bet Shithead can relate to this, is when clergy will preach as if some of the things that are not so black and white are as defined as that which is clearly black and white. For example, in the church I was raised in, we were taught that any gambling, drinking of any amount of alcohol, dancing was a sin the same as murder or adultery. That's a load of shit and just one of many reasons why I am no longer a religious person. I haven't been to church in eight years and I doubt I'll ever go back.

millionman said:

How would you say he has finite aspects by becoming a man....Jesus did amazing things, like healing a paralytic, the blind being able to see, feeding 5,ooo people with 3 loaves of bread and two fish. Does that seem like it would be finite, or limitless??? God is a conscious entity....I'm not sure this is what you were reaching for....so maybe elaborate on your point slightly.

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i really think you don't understand. if god made jesus, its like god made a decision, and that suggests he has a conscious, and even though it might be superiour to a normal human, it still would have limits. if god can make a decision, that means he thinks, and is an entity, and therefore his limits could be measured in various ways (don't ask me how, coz if you do you've completly missed the point), thus its possible for there to be copies of god because he is a thing, and it would be possible for there to be things bigger and smaller than god if he is finite.

So what you are essentially saying because God exists and He maed the decision to create the World, the Univers, and US along with it He has a limited concious. To be honest this makes no sense how this would mean he is limited. "His thoughts are not our thoughts, Hiw ways are not our ways." No one can comprehend the Mind of God, if he were limited that would mean He is not omniscient or omnipresent. Not to be rude, but your thought process about being an entity seems very convuluted. God has to exist, which then would mean if He created the World He made a decision, which then would mean He created us and allowed us to choose, but it does not make Him a finite entity, but infinite because His powers are limitless and His mind can not be understood. In the Old Testament when God showed His glory to Moses He could only reveal the trail of HIs glory, because Moses would have died from the Beauty and the Power of God's presence. Within the argument that He is finite and limited does not stand because of what He revealed to us through His son Jesus Christ.

you just don't understand millionman. and in your last post your pretty much reciting a whole lot of crap word for word, which shows how much you can think outsite the norm.

I think you don't understand, Shithead. God cannot be defined by the human brain. You can't comprehend the infinite, which is why these characteristics seem limiting to you. The fact that we can't comprehend God or attempt to define him is one thing that a belief in God automatically includes.

9cyclops9 said:

I think you don't understand, Shithead. God cannot be defined by the human brain. You can't comprehend the infinite, which is why these characteristics seem limiting to you. The fact that we can't comprehend God or attempt to define him is one thing that a belief in God automatically includes.

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no no no, you've got me mixed up, i was saying stuff about god being limited because i was trying to point out how impossible it was. so we're actually arguing the same point.

god creating christ means god made a conscious decision. therefore it would mean god is something, a thing, an entity, measurable, characterizable, atributable. god would be comprehendable if he was an entity, im not saying the human mind could comprehend god, im just saying that if god was an entity he would be a comprehendable thing. i don't beleive this.

I think we mean the same thing, or close to it, but we come to that conclusion by different ways. My point is that God, even though he made a "decision" by our definition, is not measurable. It isn't as if he decided one day that he would send Christ to Earth. He knew that day would come. He always knew it, and by always, I mean infinitely. But it was not a decision to put Him here. He didn't have to contemplate it, because time is nothing for God. It has absolutely no meaning. I'm going to borrow an illustration from Kurt Vonnegut. We see time as a single pebble at a time on a single mountain at a time. God views time as an entire mountain range. There are no moments in time for God, except for the fact that he has the ability to see time the way we do also. But he doesn't see the mountain range as you might see in a picture. He sees every pebble, every grain of sand, every electron in this entire mountain range all at once, and comprehends it all at once, without having to comprehend. So what I'm saying is that God doesn't have to think about what happens. He didn't make a decision to put Christ on Earth. It was something that he infinitely knew that he was going to do, beyond any human comprehension of infinite.

millionman said:

Well in your post you are illustrating science as this is how it as and it's thoroughness at explaining things in entirty. This is a falsehood. Science unlike other things is based on theories that appear to be relevant, and have some factual standing. Such a thing like evolution still remains a theory, but is taught as fact. For you to say that religion is for the unintelligent and uninformed masses is quite ludicrous. The first church was not founded on coercing people into belief or killing them for their unbelief, it was about forming a lasting relationship with Jesus Christ and a true transition into righteousness. If you look at this with a clear eye you will see that it is our desire to explain our world and to understand it better that further reveals the creator, things such as rainbows, gravity, and DNA all in different ways reveal a creator to us. There are so many things like DNA or retinal patterns that science can not explain how they grew to be unique, that is where faith comes in. It's not simply following along with what some minister says, we can read the word for ourselves and come to understand it or to disbelieve it. That's the only choice we are left with. No since in quarreling over it's validity, the new testament was written between A.D. 31-60, so it is indeed accurate, and the old testament translations have over 25,000 full manuscripts in original Hebrew and Latin editions that it is shown to be accurate as well. We all stand in judgement at the day of reckoning, Christ died and rose again on the third day and he is the only way to eternal life.

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I said science offers a defined answer and I also said it is come by through trial and error or if you want me to say it through the scientific process. I think you misinterpreted what I meant by the more "informed" taking advantage of the lesser intellegent people. Those with power and those who will listen to what ever those people with power say to them. That's what I meant. I'm not calling everyone who is religous uninformed or unintelligent. You can say it's ludicrous too. It's fine because it would be if it were said but it wasn't. But, it's true that there are so many things we wouldn't know about without science whereas we would have just went on believing whatever was believed without proving or disproving such beliefs. That's what I was indicating about the ignorance we ALL have. As time went on and our need to understand the world we live in was better understood by means of science and some of our ignorance went away. Now don't come back with this well the world's not exactly this or that with science because people still do terrible terrible things with it. Yes, and that is always going to be the case. Hopefully, there is a day of reckoning. It'll be dealt with then, but until then we can continue using that free will we were given and do what we may while we can. It's always up to the individual to decide what path they will choose. I like to walk inbetween the fork in the road. Can't say it's anymore or any less good than the other two paths, but hey how would I know in any case? You can be a man of faith and of science. I just look more at what makes more sense to me rather than believing all of something in a form of literature because some of the things inside give me comfort. And I'm talking about ME not someone in general. I just don't see what makes it wrong for two people to have sex before they are married. It's of course okay to think that for yourself, but this is something that has been for the longest time an idea brought on by the church. Doesn't matter what form of Christianity it is, in one form or another we have somehow come to think of sex as a naughty thing like it's not natural. And also, I'm not one of those I hope science one day disproves the bible or any other religion. I believe in one God. I WANT there to be a God because I don't want this to be it. If this is all we get to see is this world that makes hardly any sense when you look at our history and life and death and the parallels that are there and the ones we haven't found yet...sigh That would make no sense at all if there wasn't a higher being out there somewhere. What was the point of all this then? If the universe is going to end at some point then what well, man just thinking it about makes my heart light and the area around it heavy. It's unfathomable to understand what it is to be dead if that is even correct to say. If you are dead how can you Be anything? For some reason even though I was always in church up till the end of middle school I always thought death, not the act of physically dying, was like what it was before you were born. You're nothing. You didn't exist and so there is no you, no pain, no suffering, nothing and more importantly no thoughts. Notta. I hope that's not the case. I'd rather burn in hell or something worse than that. See, I just like the idea that people have the ability to find out answers the way science does it. I'd rather have the world go on till the very end trying to find in the answers they seek rather than just believing something. That is me though. No arguing about the goodness or intelligence of people who believe in Jesus Christ or any other relgion. I think a lot more is understood with science, but I think a lot of people find a reason to go on living and doing what they do with their beliefs. The two compliment each other when given the chance. There are some things I don't believe science has gotten right and there are some things I disagree with religions on. But what it comes down to is people and what they do with the two.

I have to point out something in your post, though and I'm not attacking you personally. There is something that has really bothered me that seems to be held by more than a few men here. The church can say whatever it wants, and that's fine, but once they step outside of God's word or go along with anything that is contrary to the word then it is not of Him any longer, and this is the case with many of our churches, and today's "Christians" are simply playing a game. In fact some people sasy the worst thing a church can do is have a homo-sexual minister or a woman, but God's Word says it is not ordained for the church to be established in a pastor-leity relationship, as the pastor/preacher is superior or more important in the spiritual chain than the believers in the church. The first church resembled nothing like the church is today, it was a brotherhood and the Spirit of the Lord was with them, and they revolutionized the world, but now His spirit does not reside in many of our established western churches.

Another thing I would like to point out is specifically that sex before marriage is a scriptural truth, it's not made up and it's not something to supress our sexual desires. If you've ever read the song of songs, also known as the song of solomon God expresses much joy over the two lovers, and He rejoices in them. God wants us to enjoy our sexual relationships, but only in the confines of a loving, protective, comitted relationship, and the only relationship acceptable to Him by His Word which is the Law is marriage. Honestly, don't accept my word for it, open the word and read it, I've seen so many people throughout the last few months dispute the validity of Christ but have never read the word, and have no reason to dispute it but for the church. The church is man made and man led, and as men we are fallen creatures and our flesh is a tremendous obstacle to serving the Lord and there are those who mislead their sheep, and will one day come to judgement for it. So read it for yourself, don't take mine or anyone else's word for it.

Stuff_ said:

Respect her morals and values. It's the best thing you can do for her. It's not all about sex. There's more to life.

It's not about a book, it's about her morals and her values. She is not ignorant, actually she is making an intelligent decision.

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I agree. You all might have to break up, or get married.

millionman said:

I have to point out something in your post, though and I'm not attacking you personally. There is something that has really bothered me that seems to be held by more than a few men here. The church can say whatever it wants, and that's fine, but once they step outside of God's word or go along with anything that is contrary to the word then it is not of Him any longer, and this is the case with many of our churches, and today's "Christians" are simply playing a game. In fact some people sasy the worst thing a church can do is have a homo-sexual minister or a woman, but God's Word says it is not ordained for the church to be established in a pastor-leity relationship, as the pastor/preacher is superior or more important in the spiritual chain than the believers in the church. The first church resembled nothing like the church is today, it was a brotherhood and the Spirit of the Lord was with them, and they revolutionized the world, but now His spirit does not reside in many of our established western churches.

Another thing I would like to point out is specifically that sex before marriage is a scriptural truth, it's not made up and it's not something to supress our sexual desires. If you've ever read the song of songs, also known as the song of solomon God expresses much joy over the two lovers, and He rejoices in them. God wants us to enjoy our sexual relationships, but only in the confines of a loving, protective, comitted relationship, and the only relationship acceptable to Him by His Word which is the Law is marriage. Honestly, don't accept my word for it, open the word and read it, I've seen so many people throughout the last few months dispute the validity of Christ but have never read the word, and have no reason to dispute it but for the church. The church is man made and man led, and as men we are fallen creatures and our flesh is a tremendous obstacle to serving the Lord and there are those who mislead their sheep, and will one day come to judgement for it. So read it for yourself, don't take mine or anyone else's word for it.

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Well, I agree with you about it being people and it becoming a game to merit argument for another person's own beliefs. (not Gods) but let's pretend for a minute that people had their own beliefs and desires and such well before Christianity. His word was not known to people before a certain time regardless of what certain people do believe. Such as that the world is about 6 thousand years old. It just simply isn't. I'll embrace anyone and their beliefs but won't believe BS. I never question why things happen nor do do I ever say that it was supposed to happen in the sense that it is what should have happened because there is a plan for us all. Yeah there is a plan for us all but it's drawn out in the decisions that we made on our own which is unfortunately dictated all too often by numerous outside conflicting and sanctimoniuous sources. And that belief in the plan for us all and fate or destiny or whatever people want to call it is contradicted when factoring in free will which is something all of us were supposed to have been given. Anything that happens happened because of cause and effect which sets forth a chain of feelings, thoughts, and actions. I don't question the validity of Christ. I'm Catholic and believe in God, but I do not believe in some of the principles or beliefs set forth for me by that sect of Christianity. There are lots of people out there taking too much of what the Church wants and believing it is what God wants. The problem with that is there becomes a massive amount of people preaching the same things and the church becomes more important than what God wants. The literature in religion is wonderful to an extent. It does take interpretation and soul searching, but like I said plenty of what is written was written because it was always in us and we've always felt or behaved in a certain way. This is before Christianity even before some of the older dead beliefs. These text can either be looked at as a guide or suggested reflection of the human condition. People control people all the time and it is no surprise to me if and when people use even God or a higher being than themselves to manipulate and or control thought. I'm talking historically not now so much. I believe in a higher power than myself as I believe I will know absolute nothing until I am not of this world any longer. Like I began, I have my own questions that I feel are answered only in a reflected form in which I find deep inside myself and I find that in this reflected form I cannot find all the answers through my faith.

ladylove said:

You all might have to break up, or get married.

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that's what it comes down to.

Not trying to preach here but I can't see why some of you guys don't believe in God. I mean seriously, what have you got to lose? Don't get me wrong, I am a Christian and I believe that God sent his son Jesus Christ to die so that I can go to Heaven. So, if for some reason this is a lie (I obviously don't think it is) then I've got nothing to lose when I die and I'll just be dead. Period. But if what I and a lot of other people believe IS true, then those who reject God and his son Jesus will spend eternity in Hell when they die. I'm just trying to look at it from a logical perspective. You know you're going to die, why not just believe it just in case? At least it'll give you something to hope for and look forward to.

The problem is inherent in the world. People who would seem to be educated really want everything to be explainable so that they can point to it and say yes it all makes sense. Faith does not make sense to those who seek only evidential proof of existence. Remember that Christ performed miracles in front of thousands of people several times, but yet there were those who saw this and had no faith, because they felt they were deceived by the reality they had witnessed. Today we live in a Godless country, people have removed God from every aspect of public life, because it was "offensive", what's most offensive about this thought is that fact that people would be abwhored at someone showing faith and living as examples to the existence and compassion of a Resurrected Christ. The struggle for me is to listen to people with no faith attack those who have faith, and the people without faith no more than those who claim it. The believers need to know what and why they believe and to walk faithfully, to not be hidden in the shadows for fear of judgement from men. They should step out into the Light and into the Lord's protection. I can handle rejection from men, it's this sound that scares me most "Depart from me I never knew you", eternal separation from God is the most horriffic event I can imagine, and scripture makes a vivid account of it, it's worse than any "Hell" we might imagine in reality.