How to convince a religious girl...

Guys while I respect your beliefs I still don't think you can show me in the Bible where it says that pre marital sex is wrong. I have looked and just as you know it's not there. It deals with sexual immorality and impurity but don't you think that God or Jesus would have been a little more specific on this if it were that wrong. Let me explain my thoughts, Some things in the Bible are in black and white. These things are pretty much cut and dried. In other things there is a sorta gray area. I really think a persons beliefs defines what is right and wrong in these areas. In other words I think that if you think these things are wrong for you to do then they probably are. While I am not saying that it is ok for a person to go out and bang everything in sight (I think this is where the immoral and impure comes from) I also don't think that two people who really love each other and are devoted to each other are doing anything wrong. If you spent the rest of your life with one woman and was truely devoted and faithful to her would it be wrong to have sex with her just because you were not married. If your answer is yes then I hope we can agree to disagree. I think that in this circumstance that in the eyes of God you are already married. I believe that marriage is a bond that brings two people together as one. I also believe you can have this without a cerimony.I don't think that there is anything immoral or impure about true love. Again I think the problem comes back to the application. There is a big difference between love and lust. The Bible tells us about love in the new testament. It is some of my favorite things to read in the Bible.

The only problem with what you are saying is this, if you define things a certain way and I define them a certain way, who's right and who's wrong. The reason why this does not work is you can't say if I feel it is right for me to kill you then it's right, and if you don't think it's right then it's wrong. Within this structure of thought right and wrong is still right and wrong, but you are essentially saying there is no right in wrong, but you are still saying there is right and wrong as you define it, but this can not be so. In God's word it is clear that he intended sex to be saved for marriage, song of songs vividly expresses the two lover's joy and how pleasing it is to the Lord. God is very clear on His stance on premarital sex, and I had to suffer much pain and anguish because I did not think it was a big deal because I was with the woman I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and we were devoted. God defines comittment as marriage, till death do you part that is devotion. You can say what you want about this, but Christ did not say go enjoy yourselves carnally as you will, and come to me later on. He admonished us to live purely and to be living sacrifices because we love and cherish Him. We are commanded to take up our crosses daily and to live for Him, which means you can't have your version of Christianity, because He has already defined what it means to truely live for him. I hope you can see what I mean, Christ did not say I am one of the ways, one of the truths, or some of the life. He didn't make it an either or proposition, so why would sex be any different???

What I said was that some things were very plain in the Bible. Murder and killing is one of the things that is very plain. I think that the sixth of the ten commandments says"you shall not murder". That is very plain and very easy to understand. If you start reading your Bible right there in Exodus chapter 20 there are a lot of do's and don'ts that are clearly defined in it and the next few chapters. Chapter 22 starting at verse 16 deals with social responsibilities. I do agree with a lot of what you have said. I especially agree that God didn't say go and enjoy yourselves carnally but it is not very clear in the Bible about premarital sex. How hard would it have been for God or Jesus to have said anything about a sexual relationship before marriage. Not one time in the old or the new testament is it very clear that this is wong. It says that a person is not to be immoral. If I am wrong about this I will gladly change my position and apologize if you can give me a chapter and verse that deals with this specifically. You know as well as I that it's not in there. I'm not trying to say that it's ok to sleep around but I am saying that I believe there are some times that it is not wrong to have sexual relations outside of a marriage cerimony. There are a lot of preconcieved notions about the Bible that are not actually in the Bible. A lot of these deal with some of the things that have been discussed in this thread. I am not trying to get into an argument but rather I am just saying what I believe. You may believe something totally different. I am surely not going to tell you that I'm right and you are wrong but I also don't think you can tell me that you are right and I'm wrong. We are simple human beings and we think with simple human brains. We aren't supposed to know and understand all things that are in the Bible but we are to study it and live by it the best we can. I will stand by my statement I made earlier. Some things in the Bible are in black and white and are very clear. Other things are not so very clear. I think a persons beliefs are what helps him through these gray areas.

One more thing, In Leviticus starting in chapter 18 the Bible speaks about unlawful sexual relations. Chapter 19 deals with other various laws and chapter 20 deals with the Biblical punisHydromaxents for these sins. It is odd to me that of all the things mentioned that premarital sex was not among them. This is some very good reading and the great thing about it is it is very plain spoken as to what is meant.

Very true, but at the same time you have to look at 1 corinthians and what is said in regards to sexual immorality, and then to look at it from this perspective, Christ said if you look upon a woman with lust you have comitted adultery with her, which would implicate sex before marriage as being immoral and outside of God's intended purpose. I am not saying I'm right or you're wrong, I am saying that you are implying things that because it does not say thou shalt not that it's unclear, but within the verse I mentioned and at the same time in the ten commandements it is clear that adultery is wrong, which means if you are having sex outside of marriage the woman is not yours to have, so you are sleeping with another man's wife. You can say well that's not really there, but it is made clear through Christ's words, because he takes it one step further and says the thought is immoral, so what does that say about the physical action being ok some of the time???

Like I said I'm not trying to argue or even change your mind for that matter. We have a lot of common ground in our beliefs but this is not one of them. I think that when you have sexual relations with a person that in Gods eyes you are already married. That is why I think that it is wrong to try to hit everything in sight. I have not nor will I ever do this. Just as the Bible says , the body is a temple and should be treated as such. Good luck in finding your special someone. I found mine when I was very young. We spent 16 of my first 28 years together until a car accident ended it. I know what it feels like to have that special relationship. Everyone should have a chance to have this. I am now in a long term relationship with another special person. I hope to one day be truely happy again on this earth. I know it can happen because with our Lord all things are possible.

You guys would probably both be appalled by checking out www.libchrist.com. I stumbled onto it a couple years ago somehow, I think while researching some prophecy or something and it got spit out in a search engine. Having been raised in a religious home, I was kind of floored. I've never before seen anyone try and justify the swinging lifestyle as Biblically acceptable.

Peguin, just for the record I'm not religious, and I never have been. It's always interesting to spring this thought on people. Where Jesus Christ begins religion ends, simply because religion says that there are certain things you must do to please God to gain access to His heaven, but with Christ this is not the case, He said confess with your mouth and believe in your hearts that I am Lord and you shall be saved.

It's interesting to me also how there are believers who like to say well God is ok with this, or he's ok with that, but it runs contrary to His Holy Word. This entire thread I have not spoken from my own mouth, but from the Word of God, the Holy Bible. His word makes it clear to those who read it the true meaning, and if in your mind he is not clear on premarital sex, then that's fine, it's your choice, but it does not equate with being righteous in God's eyes. His word is infallible and God's will is made clear for our relationships with women as we are to not even think of being sexually involved with them until we are married to that woman. Otherwise you are comitting adultery because she is not your wife, as you are not married to her. Honestly, even if you look at it from a logical perspective this thought carries through till the end, but yet if you look at the converse it runs contrary to everything God is, meaning His word is not infallible and that He is not perfect menaing we might as well pack it up and move on to something new, cause He does not matter anymore, he's irrelevant. Deconstruction happens to be one of my favorite things about being a philosophy major, but hey it's a double major I happen to enjoy being a Biology major as well.

Shithead said:

she's ignorrant. tell her to think for herself rather than have a book tell her what to do.


(this doesn't mean im baggin religion or god or etc blar blar)

hold on, now im gonna go on a rant.

if a bible tells us what to do, and a science book tells us what to think, then there is absolutly nothing for us to achieve in our life.


so, think for yourself.

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If anything religion tells people what to think. If that is true then what is the next thing it does?

Science is the reuslt of our own need to discover, uncover, and define ourself and our world. In other words one of our main desires is to seek an understanding of our surroundings and existence as evidenced by religion. The only difference is a defined answer to our questions is offered by science. Science won't conede or claim anything other than this is what this is and this is how this happens and this is what we did and how we discovered this. It's just studying and observing while prevailing through trial and error. If it sounds logical or reasonably intelligent and it appeals to you then you'll think along the same lines, but it doesn't end there. If you disagree you can go and seek the truth you believe is there. There are things we don't understand and benevolent and manevloent forces are out there. The thing is these forces are as tangible as intangible. I honestly think that plenty of people fear such things as sinning and spirits because they can't explain much or at least anything very well. The more intelligent then "informed" them and took advantage of this ignorance we all share. The thing is it has been embedded into our genes and it's hard to do away with. We have to respect these beliefs, but we don't have to agree with them. The reason why religion started was because we had an overwhelming void of knowledge of our world and our existence. We replaced that void somewhat with worship of the surroundings and things we couldn't see, but felt in our hearts, our soul. So, I guess since hundreds and hundreds of years of desensitizing our basic humanic instincts of sexual reproduction has infiltrated the majority of this country you will have a tough time getting her to share your same views on sex. (at least the belief that sex before marriage is wrong...something that was created by whom...church? and I mean marriage the way Ohians and many other citizens want to fight to protect (one man one woman) because they think they are protecting their morals all the while plans to move forward on another military operation is more than on the way that will ultimately lead to the death of many more that have already fallen in this broadly dubbed "War on Terror". Okay, sorry for this...I'm just distraught right now. I live in Ohio.

Good luck with your girlfriend Pharoah. I hope it all works out if it hasn't already.

Well in your post you are illustrating science as this is how it as and it's thoroughness at explaining things in entirty. This is a falsehood. Science unlike other things is based on theories that appear to be relevant, and have some factual standing. Such a thing like evolution still remains a theory, but is taught as fact. For you to say that religion is for the unintelligent and uninformed masses is quite ludicrous. The first church was not founded on coercing people into belief or killing them for their unbelief, it was about forming a lasting relationship with Jesus Christ and a true transition into righteousness. If you look at this with a clear eye you will see that it is our desire to explain our world and to understand it better that further reveals the creator, things such as rainbows, gravity, and DNA all in different ways reveal a creator to us. There are so many things like DNA or retinal patterns that science can not explain how they grew to be unique, that is where faith comes in. It's not simply following along with what some minister says, we can read the word for ourselves and come to understand it or to disbelieve it. That's the only choice we are left with. No since in quarreling over it's validity, the new testament was written between A.D. 31-60, so it is indeed accurate, and the old testament translations have over 25,000 full manuscripts in original Hebrew and Latin editions that it is shown to be accurate as well. We all stand in judgement at the day of reckoning, Christ died and rose again on the third day and he is the only way to eternal life.

Hi everybody!
I just returned from my visit and I thought I let you know what happened.
First of all, we didn't have sex, though it would have been easy for me to make it happen.
It's definately nothing that would work in a long-term perspective but it worked for now.

millionman said:

Christ died and rose again on the third day and he is the only way to eternal life.

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so if i don't beleive in christ i don't get eternal life? or if i beleive in buddah or allah instead of christ i don't get eternal life?

That's the idea.

9cyclops9 said:

That's the idea.

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please tell me your being sarcastic, because that belief is absolutly disgusting.

Shithead said:

please tell me your being sarcastic, because that belief is absolutly disgusting.

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It's not an idea that I personally follow or subscribe to, but abstainence in such relationships can be advantageous to some. "Disgusting" seems like a harsh term for your criticism of this.

penguinsfan said:

It's not an idea that I personally follow or subscribe to, but abstainence in such relationships can be advantageous to some. "Disgusting" seems like a harsh term for your criticism of this.

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no no no, you've got my statement mixed up with different topics. i was meaning its disgusting to beleif that only people who believe in christ will get eternal life.

cyclops and millionman were earlier saying that only people who beleive in christ will get eternal life, so those who beleive in allah, buddah or are athiests or people who never have the chance to hear of christ, none of them will get eternal life. which i think is a disgusting belief.

It indeed would be a disgusting belief, if we were the ones perpetrating it. Chirst said,"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one cometh to the father but by me." I am not claiming to have said they are wrong, but God said anything outside of His son will not enter the gates of heaven. It is a distatsteful thing, but it is the reality that we live. People who have not heard, their blood is on our hands, because we are called to "go forth and make disciples of all nations." It's one thing for me to say these things, but the Son of Man says these things, who do you choose to believe. "It is godd for those who have seen and believed, but I tell you greater are those who have not seen yet still believed." If you choose to not believe then the choice is yours, you have heard and it is between you and God.

Shithead, if you look at ANY major religion, you'll find the same thing. Check out Islam. They don't believe Christians can go to heaven. That's why the ultra-zealous Muslim sect has declared Jihad (holy war) on America as a Christian nation. It isn't just a Christian thing to exclude other religion. In fact, the only religion I can think of that thinks anyone of any religion can get into heaven is Universalism. And Universalism contradicts every religion it attempts to embrace.

Shithead said:

no no no, you've got my statement mixed up with different topics. i was meaning its disgusting to beleif that only people who believe in christ will get eternal life.

cyclops and millionman were earlier saying that only people who beleive in christ will get eternal life, so those who beleive in allah, buddah or are athiests or people who never have the chance to hear of christ, none of them will get eternal life. which i think is a disgusting belief.

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Okay, my mistake. I understand you now. Yet, as cyclops said, the belief in exclusivity of heaven is not something Christians have a monopoly on. It's pretty universal throughout religions. Understandably, I know it is a hard belief for non-religious people to accept.

9cyclops9 said:

Shithead, if you look at ANY major religion, you'll find the same thing. Check out Islam. They don't believe Christians can go to heaven. That's why the ultra-zealous Muslim sect has declared Jihad (holy war) on America as a Christian nation. It isn't just a Christian thing to exclude other religion. In fact, the only religion I can think of that thinks anyone of any religion can get into heaven is Universalism. And Universalism contradicts every religion it attempts to embrace.

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this is the worst argument i've heard for a while. your justifying your religious statment by saying that every other religion does it too.

its like a little kid being told off by his mum, and the kids says "but all the other kids do it"