A Little More About My Perspective . . .

I'm not arguing about whether or not it should be done... that's a personal choice that a parent makes and although i don't totally agree with it, it's not my decision to make for anyone else's kid but my own. What i was talking about are claims that make it sound like a cure-all for male problems. Yes i believe that it can make the glans more sensitive (something i'm not concerned with), but about the whole gliding thing... i think it's BS. That's just one thing that's been mentioned in the past (amoung others) as a truth that should have been challenged... it's almost like how the ROP was marketed as a cure-all. But whatever... my original point was just that the FR forum IS for the sharing of FR info, discussion of it's merits, introduction of techniques, AND supporting of those that participate in it.

I usually take alot of what i read with a grain of salt and just dismiss whatever i think is bogus, but others don't want to sit back and actually would like to challenge a fact. That's OK too... What's so hard about just putting out the facts with out an agenda and let each person make up their own mind??? For example: I like alot of things like the martial arts and think that every boy should be exposed to it for a number of reasons but i'm not going to try an convince everyone that they should. I just lay out the pros and cons and let each person make a decision. I don't feel i have to defend my stance even if others disagree since i've already made my point.

raffiki said:

I'm sick of arguing. So in closing:

I think Swank went to far in saying Kong's proof was invalid because it came from a site similar to the one that caused his emotional scaring. Just because their methods of spreading information is morally questionable, doesn't change facts. Swank would accept anything, and drove Kong up the wall. Swank kept pushing his opinion using no better proof than Kong over and over and over. It's easy to assume that I've only "read some bit of info on the net or was told something by someone you like..." But nobody is getting anywhere anyway.

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Hey bro, i hear ya...

They were both a little hard headed which just perpetuated the agrument. But the fact is that right or wrong, Kong didn't have to get so pissed off or start name calling. Don't get me wrong, i love reading Kong's posts but c'mon aren't we all adults here?? From what i gathered, Swank's main contention was how Kong interpreted the study results, which was incorrect as Kong admitted. The actual result was that it didn't support Kong's claim so it did change facts.

Oh well, let's just move on...

Thanks for all the level-headed posting Sikdogg. I appreciate you taking the time to go over the threads.

So....what are the benefits of circumcision? I really want to know. So far its been said that FR might not be whats its cracked up to be, but all i've heard here so far is that we need to judge for ourselves whether we think its right or wrong, but i still haven't heard anything about why it could be wrong. Does anyone know, or were the opponents of this thing just arguing about how its supporters come across?
-With all due respect.

bIgjOe said:

So....what are the benefits of circumcision? I really want to know. So far its been said that FR might not be whats its cracked up to be, but all i've heard here so far is that we need to judge for ourselves whether we think its right or wrong, but i still haven't heard anything about why it could be wrong. Does anyone know, or were the opponents of this thing just arguing about how its supporters come across?
-With all due respect.

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I don't think that anyone is saying that circumcision is not what is cracked up to be, simply that it's anot a cure-all for male woes... It does have benefits, one is that it will protect your glans and prolly bring some more sensitivity back to it. Another is that the extra skin that you grow will probably help with Penis Enlargement as the lack of skin can hold back gains (bib has alluded to this in some of his posts). Some people prefer the look of an uncut penis versus a cut one so in that sense, this can also be considered a benefit. And there are some that just want to be intact and feel that they were wrongly circ'ed at birth.

I think that one disadvantage of it is the smell, i know for a fact that my wife and several of her friends clearly do not like the smell. I don't believe that all women feel this way, but the one closest to me do. I also think that more sensitivity can also be a disadvantage. I am cut and am happy with my sensitivity level, i think that more sensitivity for me will only make me cum sooner and i like the fact that i can go for a long time before cumming.

There may be more advantages and disadvantages as i'm sure others will chime in but these were the first thing that came to mind...

Yeah, it only makes sex feel better and your dick get bigger...no biggie... :D

I think the gliding effect is real. What doesn't make sense about it? I don't know whether FR can bring back the same kid of gliding that an uncut man would have, but I think I've read that it helps keep the female's moisture or wetness inside so... that added with the skin rolling over back and forth inside the vagina...can't you see how that is a gliding motion?? Wouldn't more lubrication thus less friction create a better feel during sex??????

Yes i understand how the gliding process works... i just disagree that it adds pleasure for women. Pleasure for women during sex works just like anything else in the body that has nerve endings... it typically requires physical contact and friction. The gliding effect takes away alot of the friction. If you masterbated with and without a condom on, which would feel better?? Without of course, because there's more friction. Same goes when stimulating a pussy...

If anybody, Kong included, still thinks I post on this as some kind of personal thing, here's a quote from me made over a year ago on one of the first circumcision threads.

"I believe Xulf's post simply demonstrated that there are health benefits to circumcision as well. Nobody else has provided any pro arguments for it, and as an open forum where men go to get information, it is important that all sides of an argument be presented.

Parents can and do have the legal right to control their children's access to surgery and other medical procedures. This has and will continue to be our legal tradition. Parents are allowed to make decisions based on what they feel is best for their children's overall health. I believe there is enough reserach to show that circumcision is not particularly harmful. If the operation was as dangerous and traumatic as many of the things I have seen linked here would suggest, the practice would be banned. The mdical community is neither unethical nor uncaring. It is a matter of decision, but essentially a benign practice. Claims of barbarism are a personal opinion of the procedure. Thanks to Xulf for expanding the discussion with solid information.

It is most likely not necessary for boys to undergo circumcision. There is some evidience to suggest there are benefits, there may be some risks as well.One's beliefe that God intended us to be a certain should not and never will be used as a justification for banning circumcision, as that is a religious opinion and has no bearing on legal issues concerning parenting and health care."

The thread is titled "History of CIrcumcision In The US" or something similar, and started by mowinman.

I believe this was written before I ever discussed the issue with Kong, but I'm not positive. Either way, I just wanted to demonstrate that my rationale for posting and interest in it has been neither recent nor reactionary.

Hmmm...according to my wife, it's all about the lube, and the gliding keeps her from drying out. Don't kid yourself. Next time you're doing it, pull it out and wipe all the juice off your dick and then shove it back in...see how much she likes that! You all gripe about what we talk about because you say its unfair and infers that one is better than the other...and then you all start putting down uncut guys, saying your dicks are better because of the friction. :D This is just another one of those things where everyone has a vote and nobody's right. So cast your vote and let's move on. I vote: gliding feels good for her cause she told me so. Ching!

That was kind of random...:D

I agree with sikdogg's point and have stated this in the past.

I think a foreskin can make penetration easier, but some kind of secret orgasmic effect is not only counterintuitive to a lot of what we generally attribute to a female's sexual pleasure, but it also makes little sense socially.

If this 'gliding effect' where the real deal and circumcision really was depriving women of greater sexual pleasure across the board, I believe that A) we'd hear about it from other sources besides anti-circumcision and FR groups, and B) women would be actively seeking out uncut men in the US if it were so much superior.

A general theory about the foreskin from an evolutionary standpoint is that besides protecting the penis from long grass, the elements, ect. , was that it made penetration faster and easier by keeping the glans lubricated. In a primitive time where intercourse would necessarily be quick (and probably not always by choice) a faster and easier entry into the vaginal canal would have been essential for reproductive fitness. The idea that the foreskin developed in any way to facilitate female pleasure by allowing the penis to 'glide' more gently in the vagina is rather difficult to support in my opinion.

And as always, I encourage men to talk to women they know before drawing any conclusions. This is likely a better source than what you read on the internet.

Kong, it's actually not very random on a thread that is supposed to be about me explaining why I post about circumcision, FR, and my opinions on them.

Sorry. It was the way the posts lined up on me. It was gliding, gliding, History of Circumcision, gliding... I just thought it was funny.

Kong, i'm not saying that there should be no lubrication... and yes the friction does in fact "wear out" the lubrication sooner but as long as the woman is stimulated she shouldn't run out of lube. Too much or too little lube isn't good, but the amount of lube is a personal preference. I've been with some women where they were just too wet and it didn't feel as good, i actually had to pull out to wipe off some lube then there are other's that just seemed a little under lubed. I feel that it's easier to control lubrication with women that are underlubed compared to those that are too wet.

It's been very rare in my experience for a woman to go completely dry while she's stimulated or "in the mood." And even if she does go dry, so what... just squirt some astroglide and you're back in business. I also like the feeling of the friction along my shaft while fucking. In the past when i had sex with my wife wearing a condom, she always complained that she didn't enjoy sex as much cuz the condom caused too much of a gliding effect and not enough friction. I always thought that her comments were interesting since sex with a condom definitely didn't feel as good for me but i always thought that it made no difference for her.

I agree that the gliding effect does in fact keep the lube in her longer since you're not using it.

I'm trying to bash you or uncut guys by saying that cut is better because of the friction. I was responding to IWANT8INCHES' question asking why the gliding concept didn't make sense to me. If he hadn't asked, i would have never posted my comment.

I think the extent of "gliding" is maybe being misunderstood.

It's very hard to describe things with FR because you kind of get used to the changes after awhile, and then they are also subtle. If I think back, I can remember my wife's pussy feeling "stickier" and I can definitely say there was more friction. I can also recall her drying out more. Now, she definitely stays more lubed, all the time, but its not like gushing out all over the bed. It just stays more...slippery. Now that my skin is looser, I can either go easier and softer or really pound the shit out of it. Its not so much that the friction is gone...it's just that it feels softer and more comfortable...Like I said, it's hard to explain. It is definitely not like a condom, tho, at all.

What you don't want to hear, tho, is that it's better.

I think it is...!

Please be aware, too, that if you are loosely cut in the first place, you're not going to get it. You have always had what I am just now getting, having a tight cut originally. Instead, imagine what it would be like trying to have sex while pulling down three inches of your dick skin and holding it tight there the whole time. Imagine where I started, not where I'm at now.

sikdogg said:

Kong, i'm not saying that there should be no lubrication... and yes the friction does in fact "wear out" the lubrication sooner but as long as the woman is stimulated she shouldn't run out of lube. Too much or too little lube isn't good, but the amount of lube is a personal preference. I've been with some women where they were just too wet and it didn't feel as good, i actually had to pull out to wipe off some lube then there are other's that just seemed a little under lubed. I feel that it's easier to control lubrication with women that are underlubed compared to those that are too wet.

It's been very rare in my experience for a woman to go completely dry while she's stimulated or "in the mood." And even if she does go dry, so what... just squirt some astroglide and you're back in business. I also like the feeling of the friction along my shaft while fucking. In the past when i had sex with my wife wearing a condom, she always complained that she didn't enjoy sex as much cuz the condom caused too much of a gliding effect and not enough friction. I always thought that her comments were interesting since sex with a condom definitely didn't feel as good for me but i always thought that it made no difference for her.

I agree that the gliding effect does in fact keep the lube in her longer since you're not using it.

I'm trying to bash you or uncut guys by saying that cut is better because of the friction. I was responding to IWANT8INCHES' question asking why the gliding concept didn't make sense to me. If he hadn't asked, i would have never posted my comment.

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Yup..I just didn't know what he meant by his comment about the gliding effect being one of the elements of having a foreskin.. needing to be called into question or however he'd put it...

kong1971 said:

...What you don't want to hear, tho, is that it's better.

I think it is...!

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It's not that i don't want to hear gliding is better... i just can't understand the mechanics of how it's supposed to be better. I'm a fairly technical guy and need to understand things like this on a technical level. I'm not closing my mind to say that it's not at all possible and that my theory of friction is the only way. What i'm saying is if someone can explain how gliding in your own skin (which effectively reduces friction against the vulva walls) increases pleasure for a woman, then i'd be more than willing to concede and jump on your bandwagon regarding this point.

I'm cut as you may already know and i don't think that i'm cut very tight as i have some slack on my foreskin when flaccid, but when erect i have almost no loose skin at all so i don't think i'm that different from you. On one occasion, i tried and was able to pull skin over my glans when i was about 80% erect and tried to masterbate that way to try and understand what you're talking about when i first read about gliding. I found that doing this does in fact feel different as it drastically reduced the friction against my glans. Although i enjoyed it, i definitely believe that a small dab of lube between my hand and penis feels significantly better than gliding in my own foreskin.

But hey, if you think gliding is better, more power to ya... the bottom line is that as long as you and your wife enjoy each other more, then who cares what some guy on the Internet says. I just have a hard time accepting things as fact unless someone can explain the details or the machanics to me, that's all.

Well, actually, I can pull the skin completely over the head when erect. It pulls my balls up a little, but not as bad as before. I would say I can pull it up halfway without tugging too hard. I am just now begining to feel the gliding effect that they talk about. Like I said, it's really hard to describe. Her pussy just feels softer and snugglier, and every now and then I can feel the skin rub up against the ridge of the head, which feels good. My wife notices more than me, I think. She says it feels really good. I can't say if you would like it because I don't know, but I like it. Its not "magical ecstasy beyond all imagining", but there is definitely more to it than some of you think... Shrug...

kong1971 said:

Its not "magical ecstasy beyond all imagining", but there is definitely more to it than some of you think... Shrug...

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Are you misquoting me?