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Y'all still against circumcision? Please reserve your judgement until you've read this entire article.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL

Circumcision may offer Africa AIDS hope
Procedure linked to much lower rate of new HIV infections


Sabin Russell, Chronicle Medical Writer

Wednesday, July 6, 2005

French and South African AIDS researchers have called an early halt to a study of adult male circumcision to reduce HIV infection after initial results reportedly showed that men who had the procedure dramatically lowered their risk of contracting the virus.

The study's preliminary results, disclosed Tuesday by the Wall Street Journal, showed that circumcision reduced the risk of contracting HIV by 70 percent -- a level of protection far better than the 30 percent risk reduction set as a target for an AIDS vaccine.

According to the newspaper account, the study under way in Orange Farm township, South Africa, was stopped because the results were so favorable. It was deemed unethical to continue the trial after an early peek at data showed that the uncircumcised men were so much more likely to become infected.

All of the men in the study had been followed for a year, and half the men had been followed for the full 21 months called for in the original study design, according to the Wall Street Journal, which obtained a draft copy of the study.

Begun in August 2002, the experiment is one of three closely watched clinical trials in Africa to determine whether there is scientific merit to nearly three dozen less rigorously controlled studies showing that circumcised men were much less likely to become HIV-positive.

The hope is that, lacking a vaccine, the nearly 5 million new HIV infections occurring each year could be slowed by circumcision, the surgical removal of the foreskin -- a simple, low-cost and permanent medical intervention that is a common but controversial cultural practice in much of the world. In Africa, about 70 percent of men are circumcised at birth or during rite-of-passage ceremonies in early puberty.

Medical anthropologists began noticing as early as 1989 that the highest rates of HIV infection in Africa were occurring in regions of the continent where the predominant tribal or religious cultures did not practice circumcision. Adult HIV infection rates above 30 percent are found in Zimbabwe, Botswana, Swaziland and eastern South Africa, where circumcision is not practiced; yet HIV infection rates remain below 5 percent in West Africa and other parts of the continent where circumcision is commonplace.

Laboratory studies have found that the foreskin is rich in white blood cells, which are favored targets of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. So the theory is that men who are uncircumcised are much more likely to contract the virus during sex with an infected woman, and that the epidemic spreads when these newly infected men have sex with other women within their network of sexual partners.

The lead investigators of the study, Dr. Bertran Auvert of the University of Paris and Adrian Puren of South Africa's National Institute for Communicable Diseases, are not talking. The results were expected to be discussed at an AIDS conference in Rio de Janeiro in three weeks. But word about the findings has been circulating among researchers searching for ways to slow the epidemic.

"I would be thrilled if it works, but we will also need the results of other trials,'' said Johns Hopkins University epidemiologist Ronald Gray, who is conducting, in Uganda, one of two other controlled clinical trials of male circumcision.

Gray's trial, which has completed enrollment of 5,000 men in the Rakai district of Uganda, is not scheduled to end until 2007.

A third trial, under way in Kisumu, Kenya, is still enrolling its quota of 2,700 volunteers and is also expected to be completed in 2007, according to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is sponsoring it.

All three trials were designed to compare the HIV infection rates of two groups of HIV-negative men, one-half of whom would agree to be circumcised, the other to be offered only counseling on AIDS prevention. The studies were designed to show whether or not circumcision provided a statistically significant protective effect of at least 50 percent.

The South African study -- if the results are confirmed -- suggests that the level of protection afforded is even higher.

Although the apparent protective effect of circumcision has been noted for more than 20 years, doubts linger as to whether circumcision itself is protective, or whether the lower risk may be the result of cultural practices among those who circumcise. HIV rates are low in Muslim communities, for example, which practice male circumcision but also engage in ritual washing before sex and frown on promiscuity.

E-mail Sabin Russell at srussell@sfchronicle.com.

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I heard about this. I doubt it will change the anti-circumcision crowd, because they swear by the increased sexual benefit of the intact cock.

Oh well. I'm here. I'm cut. So it is.
 
There have also been various studies linking circumcised men and lower overall STD rates, but the anti-circ movement pretty much feels all these studies are biased in one way or another.

I see the anatomical logic of the foreskin potentially trapping fluids, bacteria, viruses, ect. close to the meatus and thus facilitating transmission, but some foreskin enthusiasts have suggested that foreskins somehow produce antibodies and other things.

I find the evidence to be fairly solid, tohugh not conclusive.
 
Condoms and education help prevent AIDS, too, without all those nasty side effects like cutting up genitals with a sharp blade.

I'm not going to go apeshit on this thread because, basically, the argument can go round and round with no one really conclusively proving their point. However, I wonder just how much the recovery period and the dampened sexual activity of the mutilated men had to do with instances of sexual intercourse and rate of transmission? I dug an ingrown hair out of my shaft and avoided sex for at least two weeks because of a minor infection and soreness. Those poor guys probably couldn't do much for at least a couple months.

There are so many factors involved that you can prove this no more than I could prove my own theories and ideas here.

Question is, why cut up a man's dick when you could distribute condoms, educate the masses and spend money attempting to develope a cure or at least treatment for the actual disease in question?

Any excuse to cut up an innocent cock, I guess.
 
Well, I agree there are certainly better options that circumcising everybody, but things like condom distribution and what not are sometime a tall order when you're dealing with millions of people existing in a mostly rural and impoverished culture.

The only really feasable solutions to the AIDs epidemic in sub-saharan Africa is economic and cultural stability. Better education, more widely available medication, and methods like circumcision are basically band-aids for the crisis. They serve their purpose, but an ultimate solution is more of a big picture deal, at least in my opinion.

If circumcision helps dam the flood, then I say explore the option with mroe research. The trade off of possibly less sexual sensation for in increased chance of not contracting HIV is something I'd be all for if I was in a position to make the choice.
 
Hmm, I'm not sure. It seems kind of counter-intuitive that we are exploring circumcision as a preventative for HIV when the culture in question has both a high portion of HIV infected citizens AND a high circ rate. Why would the HIV rate be so high if circumcision is the answer? Unless, of course, the 30% of men not circumcised are the ones with all the HIV, and I doubt that's the case. :D Anyway, like I said, any excuse... I'm trying to be less fanatical and more open-minded, but this one doesn't convince me. HIV transmission is from promiscuous and unprotected sexual habits, not foreskin. Poor, foreskin, you get blamed for so much... :D
 
Swank said:
There have also been various studies linking circumcised men and lower overall STD rates, but the anti-circ movement pretty much feels all these studies are biased in one way or another.

I see the anatomical logic of the foreskin potentially trapping fluids, bacteria, viruses, ect. close to the meatus and thus facilitating transmission, but some foreskin enthusiasts have suggested that foreskins somehow produce antibodies and other things.

I find the evidence to be fairly solid, tohugh not conclusive.

That actually makes perfect sense. Women are often at greater risk for STDs because of the obvious point that a man ejaculates fluid into her, therefore the trapping of fluids and tissue under the enclosed skin makes perfect sense. Even in cases of no ejaculation, some tissue could be trapped inside her, such as a small amount of blood from something or even a piece of flaked skin or some such shit.

While this article seems totally believeable, I wouldn't call it a major victory for pro-circumcision advocates. Condoms would basically reduce the risk to very comparable to that of those circumcised. And anyone with common sense would advocate using condoms outside of any long-term monogamous relationships. So it wouldn't concern me.

I just kinda find the subject interesting. If I was uncut, I probably wouldn't go get it hacked off. Yet, being cut, I'm not inclined to FR either.
 
Also, for what it's worth, on the radio Michael Savage read the article and brought up the point that many cultures advocating circumcision stress religious values that tend to reduce promiscuity, thus STDs. He used the Muslim culture as an example and there is probably some truth to it. He stated he didn't believe it was anything physiological. I happen to think both are valid points.
 
One other thought: the U.S. has one of the highest rates for circumcision and concurrently one of the highest rates for HIV infection. Go figure.
 
Priapologist said:
One other thought: the U.S. has one of the highest rates for circumcision and concurrently one of the highest rates for HIV infection. Go figure.

I don't think that makes any sense from a physiological aspect. One can clearly see the reason as discussed above why an intact foreskin would be a detriment, though I doubt it is a real significant factor. Consider your statement and ask yourself what the HIV rate is in Saudi Arabia. I doubt it is even remotely a concern.

I know some people don't like to hear it and I haven't always practiced such behavior but the greatest factor in determining the AIDS rate is sexual morality. If you have high amounts of promiscuity and low commitments to monogamy, you will have a higher AIDS rate. There may be a variety of moral beliefs on homosexuality, but the fact remains that homosexual intercourse has a much higher risk than heterosexual intercourse and if you have a widely accepted above ground gay community you will have a higher AIDS rate, due to a larger number of sex partners per individual. If you have a society with a significant drug problem and thus more people injecting drugs, you will have a higher AIDS rate. The last one really pisses me off when I think about it, but the fact remains that if you have a number of people that decide to forgoe condom usage you will have a higher AIDS rate.
 
So you're saying that, realistically, foreskin has very little to do with AIDS? Thanks. I agree.
 
kong1971 said:
So you're saying that, realistically, foreskin has very little to do with AIDS? Thanks. I agree.

I guess I would state it that it probably does from a scientific standpoint, but not from a realistic standpoint. The idea I mentioned above about fluids being trapped seems perfectly valid. But condoms should basically almost negate that. Therefore it would for unprotected sex, but I think you're living on borrowed time if you're having unprotected sex with a large number of partners, cut or uncut. Sooner or later it will get you, unless you have a natural immunity to it, which I've always heard a small number of the population seemingly has. I suppose after further consideration, since my original post it seems as though the cultural values have a much greater impact.
 
I'm glad that came clear in a very positive and friendly manner. There's always a tendecy to rationalize circumcision, because we want to feel that there is at least some benefit to cutting up our penises. It's kind of hard to admit there is really no logical reason for it. We just do it for the looks. If you're truly happy with your circ, then don't worry about it. If you feel you are "missing something", or would just like to appear natural, then you can restore it.
 
I am fine with my circumcision, except I wonder if it ever robbed me of size. I don't get the signs of a tight circumcision, but something has to explain my lack of size. From what I can remember, my father seemed to be hung like a mule and he's uncut. I know some men do feel it was a size stealer for them.

Kong, BTW, as a staunch anti-circumcision advocate what do you think of those that say the procedure puts men at less risk for penile cancer? I'm not trying to hijack or change the direction of the thread, but I am honestly curious, as I know you had to have read the claims.
 
From what I have researched on this, it's more a case of hygiene than foreskin. Many countries that have very low circumcision rates also have very low rates of penile cancer, like Japan, for instance. Japanese men are generally uncircumcised and also very clean, so not much dick cancer there. Same as Sweden. Like I said, rationalizing... It's hard for me to believe that foreskin gives you cancer and makes you catch AIDS when the countries that cut the most have the most problems with those two things. It just doesn't make sense.

If you're not tight cut, I doubt if you were robbed of any size. However, I wonder if men in general know what a tight cut is. The signs of a tight cut are basically stretch marks, hair and scrotum tissue pulled up the shaft and lack of skin mobility [a loose cut man can usually pull the skin over the glans when erect pretty easily]. If you were cut tight enough that your body had to borrow skin from the nuts and pubes to cover an erection, you could very well gain some length by doing a little skin expansion. Girth, too, as the new, looser skin layer just makes it look plumper. I don't think it actually triggers growth, it just lets it all "fill out".
 
What kind of utter rubbish is this??

HHAHAHAHAH

Sounds more like circumcision promoting as health care gets subsidies for carrying out these procedures.

Did you know when a woman has an abortion she becomes 11% smarter??
 
Everyone in this thread who thinks that circumcision has absolutely nothing to do with the prevention of STD's, especially HIV, has to ask themselves this question: why didn't more than 5 people contract HIV during the ���� outbreak last year?

One guy, Darren James, contracted the virus while in Brazil from a pornstar there who did a lot of work with transsexuals. James infected 3 women: Laura Roxx, Jessica Dee and Miss Arroyo. The only other pornstar who contracted HIV around that time was a transsexual named Jennifer, but this was an isolated case unrelated to these other 4.

So what, right?

Well, what's simply amazing is how only those 3 women were infected by James. Why? Because he fucked 10 other women when he was HIV positive and none of them contracted the virus. He also had direct contact with Mark Anthony (no, not the guy married to J-LO :)) during a double anal with Laura Roxx, who ended up HIV positive.

Even more amazing is how many other ��������� then went on to fuck the 3 infected women, the 10 uninfected women, along with uninfected Mark Anthony. By looking at the AIM Quarantine List that's still up, you'll see the huge number of performers who had sex with these people. A quick count reveals a staggering number in excess of 50.

Why didn't any of them contract the virus? Did they all just catch a big, lucky break? Are they all somehow immune to HIV?

The truth is, no one really knows- although there are some very good theories, especially from those in the industry.

Fact is, every single HIV-positive case in pornland over the past decade has been contracted during acts that not only consisted of anal sex, but anal ejaculations (creampies) as well. Not one case involved vaginal-only sex. Not one.

Rodney Moore, whom many of you have undoubtedly seen in action, had a lot to say about all this in a commentary that he wrote on AVN. He was amazed when, years ago, he ended up fucking Brooke Ashley the day before she ended up testing HIV positive- yet somehow didn't contract the virus himself.

Now, what the fuck does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? I don't see anything about circumcision in there, do you?

Well, if I'm not mistaken, Africa is #1 HIV-positive continent. By far. No one else comes close, whether you're talking in sheer numbers, or by a proportion of the population. Now, here's where the circumcision argument comes in: the vast majority of North American men are circumcised. Especially ���������. But elsewhere in the world, the vast majority of men are uncut. Especially in Africa.

Unless anal sex w/creampie is being performed by a sizable portion of the population, another form of sex has got to account for all those infections. And that type of sex is the way God intended: dick 'n quim. And are the vast majority of those African guys cut, or uncut? Think about it.

Re-read the above revelations regarding the ���� industry and maybe you'll see what I'm driving at.

Lack of education and condoms, combined with promiscuous sex- particular of the anal variety- obviously contribute to spread the virus like wildfire. Check out http://tinyurl.com/c8q95 to see what's going on over there, but be sure to have your barf bags ready as you confront the present realities of dealing with HIV in Africa.

Like the above items, circumcision- or lack thereof- is a contributing factor to the spread of HIV in Africa. There's absolutely no doubt about it in my mind. Maybe a few wise, old Jewish guys from thousands of years ago were right ater all...
 
Baraka, the male population of North and West Africa plus much of East Africa, eg Algeria, Cameroon, Chad, Dahomey, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea, Ivory Coast, Kenya. Libya, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Northern Uganda, Upper Volta, and Zaire is almost UNIVERSALLY CIRCUMCISED!!! The circ rates of the rest of Africa is somewhere between 25 to 75% of the male population!!! The difference, population-wise, between the areas of high circ rates and low circ rates regarding HIV infection is a measly 20%. Africa has one of the highest circumcision rates in the world. The flaw of this argument's logic has already been exposed several times in this debate. In simplest terms possible: circumcision cannot help reduce their rate of HIV infection because they're almost all circumcised already.


James Darren, the performer who infected so many last year, appears to be circumcised. I think it is interesting to note that ���� performer Rodney Moore is not circumcised, yet fucked AIDS infected Brooke Ashley the day before she tested positive. In fact, the last male performer to test positive for HIV that I can recall is Marc Wallice, who has a very tight circumcision, and managed to hide his condition and spread it to several other actors and actresses before discovery. Not exactly a convincing argument for circumcision, wouldn't you agree?


The truth is out there.
 
kong1971 said:
Baraka, the male population of North and West Africa plus much of East Africa, eg Algeria, Cameroon, Chad, Dahomey, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea, Ivory Coast, Kenya. Libya, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Northern Uganda, Upper Volta, and Zaire is almost UNIVERSALLY CIRCUMCISED!!!
Before now, I had always heard that the circumcision rates outside of North America were much lower. I guess I was wrong about Africa as a whole. Thanks for providing this info.

It bears mentioning, though, that the countries with the highest infection rates- Zimbabwe, Botswana, Swaziland and eastern South Africa- aren't among your list and, as the SF Chronicle article says, don't practice circumcision. So, in African nations where circumcision is widespread, low infection rates. But in African nations where circumcision is not practiced, high infection rates. Hmmm...
kong1971 said:
The circ rates of the rest of Africa is somewhere between 25 to 75% of the male population!!! The difference, population-wise, between the areas of high circ rates and low circ rates regarding HIV infection is a measly 20%. Africa has one of the highest circumcision rates in the world.
Well, then how do you explain the facts/figures cited in the SF Chronicle article? Technically, I don't doubt you're right about Africa as a whole, but how do you explain the link between lack of circumcision and high infection rates in those four regions?
kong1971 said:
The flaw of this argument's logic has already been exposed several times in this debate. In simplest terms possible: circumcision cannot help reduce their rate of HIV infection because they're almost all circumcised already.
According to this webpage, you're right- but for different reasons than you might think. The above webpage is outdated by several years, but I buy its conclusions. Changes in sexual attitudes due to circumcision and idiot rituals like group circumcisions, contribute to make the HIV problem worse in parts of Africa. Parts- not the whole. Unfortunately, these conclusions don't even come close to fully accounting for the extremely high infection rates in the four regions I named above. There's just no way.
kong1971 said:
James Darren, the performer who infected so many last year, appears to be circumcised. I think it is interesting to note that ���� performer Rodney Moore is not circumcised, yet fucked AIDS infected Brooke Ashley the day before she tested positive. In fact, the last male performer to test positive for HIV that I can recall is Marc Wallice, who has a very tight circumcision, and managed to hide his condition and spread it to several other actors and actresses before discovery. Not exactly a convincing argument for circumcision, wouldn't you agree?
My talk about the ���� industry was meant to throw out some facts that most people have no idea about, with respect to HIV transmission. No one can explain why so few performers were infected last year. Whether it has anything to do with circumcision or not is completely unknown at this point. I put that in there to see if it would spur some interesting discussion.

So, I guess the only question left to ask is, do you believe that circumcision- not just in Africa, but in general across the world- helps to prevent the transmission of STD's? Or do you believe this to be a widely propagated myth that has stood the test of time- in this case, for thousands of years?
kong1971 said:
The truth is out there.
It's out there alright, but it will take many more years and countless more medical studies to find it.
 
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