Psuedo-Bump

This is the first post from a thread by Skepdick called "Dispelling The Myth." Obviously there has been a good bit of contention and animosity around here lately, and thankfully that seems to be over with. In the interests of clearing things up I just wanted to give this post some attention as I think it summarizes the perspective pretty well.

It's not anti-FR and it's not anti-foreskin. It's about having all the information and perspectives out there, and treating the forum like a real forum, not an advertisement for something (or against it, as is often the case). Anybody can post whatever they want, and anybody should be able to criticise whatever they want, no exceptions.

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I have held my breath for the most part on the topic of FR as it has been discussed here, only chiming in a few times when I think the dogma had reached extreme levels, but now I wish to give my full opinion on the topic. I know there are quite a few people opposed to FR, but all of the posts occur in pro-FR threads and those opposed almost always (wrongfully) get accused of being hateful, jealous, ect... so because of this I have decided to start a new place to discuss this topic.

***FOR THE RECORD***

*I believe FR is possible
*I believe FR might have some potential merit
*I am not threatened by FR or anyone who undertakes it
*I do NOT believe that FR will cause extreme orgasms/bigger dicks/more sensation/decreased aggression/ect...

This being said, I do believe there is quite a lot of bullshit being forced upon some of the more inexperienced and impressionable members at this forum. There are no studies to back up 90% of the claims that the advocates of FR claim and I think it is very damaging to the credibility of the forum to let things go on as they are. As I stated in another thread in which rediculous claims about FR were being made, I believe that FR has taken on a cult-like mentality here. The posts that promote it are becoming frightenly similar to the ROP posts this place was plauged with for the longest time. Those who have been at the forum for more than a few months can remember how things went with the ROP (I have come to the forum on a semi daily basis since it opened 1.5 years ago, I only registered recently).

The ROP began as an erection aid, producing viagra-like benefits to the user. While it was a complete hoax IMHO this claim is relatively tame compared to the bullshit that went on over time. The progression went as follows.

"I have been experiencing trouble staying hard for my Penis Enlargement sessions and during love making, what should I do?"
"Get a ROP"

"I plan on growing 3 inches to the length of my dick and making a substantial improvement to the thickness as well in the coming 2 months, how can I undertake this most appropriately?"
"Get a ROP"

"My GF left me for another man, I am failing out of school, I have trouble paying my bills, and I've never accomplished my lifelong dream of being an astronaut. What can I do about it?"
"Get a ROP"

To anyone who scoffs at the preceding dialog, please don't. This shit happened here at MOS on a daily basis for over 6 months and the MODS and ADMINS didn't do a damn thing to stop it for a very long time.

It might pain a certain proclaimer of FR to join the ranks of Supra, but I feel that things are well on their way. FR has existed in the internet for as long as Penis Enlargement has, and when it began the purpose of foreskin restoration was to restore your foreskin, for the sake of restoring your foreskin. It is now being marketed as the end-all, be-all solution to any sexual problem that I man can have. Anyone who posts about his lack of length, lack of girth, penile curvature, decreased libido, decreased sexual stamina, decreased erection power, ect...is told that the cause was a botched circumcision. I think this is wrong. For those that believe this, and many people come here desperate and will believe anything the highly acclaimed moderators tell them, they will blindly follow the advice and be very frustrated when they don't get results with their problem. This hurts the credibility of the forum, DLD, the members, moderators, and of course, DLD himself.

I imagine Kong is going to chime in and claim that a)I am hateful towards him and am taking personal attacks and b)FR is nothing like the ROP situation because he isn't profitting. However, I have not taken any personal attacks and I didn't just post this thread for the hell of it. Things went back and forth in a recent thread in the FR forum titled 'Attitude towards parents' with Kong, AC, myself, and a few other members. Also, just because no one is profitting here (as of now) with FR does not mean that it is harmless. I think many people will agree that it is being rammed down our throats.

I don't have anything against Kong or anyone else for that matter who strongly believes in FR. I don't think he is intentially trying to hurt or deceive us by promoting FR. I can already foresee what the defense is going to say in response to my post. They are going to ask me why I care and why they would go so far with the FR charade. To me the answer is simple. I don't care if another man wants to regrow his foreskin but I am bothered by all of the propaganda that exists on this topic at MOS. And I think that the need for this stems from a classical male insecurity. We are all insecure about the size of our penis on some level or we wouldn't be here, this is discounting the small fraction of us who have achieved our lifetime Penis Enlargement goal size and are only here to comtinue to help out in the Penis Enlargement community. I am going to go ahead and make a quick simplifying assumption and lump dissatisfaction over penile curvature, premature ejaculation, hairy shaft, ect... into the same category with size. Some of us just are not happy about our sexual prowess for a variety of reasons. There are several ways to deal with it. It is common with the whole penis size issue to rationalize that huge dicks do not exist, or some here have come up with rediculous figures for how small the average erect penis is. I have heard some claim that 5 inches BP is an average size. Clearly 5 inches is below the average, any survey in existence about adult penis size will tell you this, whether self reported or not. This is an example of classical denial and claiming that every problem with male sexuality can be caused by the removal of a flap of skin around the penis head is along the same lines. Some people can come to terms with what they are unhappy about (and I do believe this is a major step in becoming proactive about your Penis Enlargement and being productive, rather than making excuses), while others will always look for an excuse. With dick size there has always been the classical denial of huge dicks and now this FR stuff is whats taking over. It is basically saying "You are OK, you have the mammoth cock you have always wanted and the sexual prowess along too, you've always had it, all you need to do is unlock your magic foreskin again and you will miraculously regain what you had all along." I guess some people need to live this kind of lie to feel secure about themselves. I don't. I won't. I know I am here to make gains. I don't concern myself with why I am the way I am, whether it be genetics, diet, a tight circumcision. It doesn't matter, I think FR is a big crutch here for those that want to blame everybody but themselves. You can get what you want with Penis Enlargement but no magic pill, cream, lotion, ROP, or foreskin is going to do it for you. You're going to have to jelq, squeeze, stretch, and hang your dick for months/years until you're blue in the face. Most of the true big gainers such as SWM and DLD have proven this one.

This post was not intended to hurt the feelings of anyone, I support those who wish they had a foreskin, I just hope you are doing FR for the right reason and not due to some kind of propaganda that you have been tricked into believing. I know how frustrating these male insecurities can be and I wish everyone here the best. I can not wait to get everyone's opinion here about this, especially DLD. I hope you don't sit back and watch this debate without partaking and giving us your thoughts. Let me know what you think everyone.

-Skepdick

I was not satisfied with my 5 and a half inch penis, so I made it bigger. I was not satisfied with my tightly cut circumcision, so I started doing FR. Both a larger cock and a looser-cut, more sensitive penis pleases me. I don't care if you believe in either. MOS is where we come to make it bigger and better, not where we come to "be happy with what we got".

That's not the message I took from Skepdick's post at all. You may want to re-read a little more closely.

I am only going to make one more comment on this thread because I do not want to start any more long-winded debates here on the forum and go in endless circles debating the same things over and over.

1) There is no concrete proof of any of FR's benefits. We are talking about it on a Penis Enlargement forum, and Penis Enlargement is not even recognized by the medical industry.

2) If you would really like to know for sure what benefits can be found in foreskin restoration, do it yourself. If you do not try it, and give it a good go, you're just talking out your down under.

3) The anecdotal evidence given by a majority of restorers is positive, and pretty consistent.

4) Suggesting that we restorers are liars, deluded or have to otherwise be saved from ourselves or kept from harming others is highly insulting. Who do you think you are? You have never even tried it!

5) We are free to believe what we want: whether it be restoring for cosmetic reasons, or because we feel it is some grand ideological and spiritual journey. It is not your right to judge us either way.

That's pretty much it. I appreciate your input in the FR forum. It has gotten our quiet little forum some attention and some of what you say has merit, but do not judge what you do not and do not want to understand. It is presumptuous, arrogant and insulting to many of us restorers.

kong1971 said:

There is no concrete proof of any of FR's benefits. We are talking about it on a Penis Enlargement forum, and Penis Enlargement is not even recognized by the medical industry.

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Penis enlargement hasn't been ACCEPTED by the medical community but it definately has been recognized. If you don't believe me do a search for the Chartham Study.

kong1971 said:

We are free to believe what we want: whether it be restoring for cosmetic reasons, or because we feel it is some grand ideological and spiritual journey. It is not your right to judge us either way.

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For the 459854326945873567854879234789327692634496846th time, we don't care what you do or what you believe, we just don't like you spreading information that is most likely false and just some idea you cooked up in your head as the gospel. You seem to have trouble grasping this concept.

I also find it interesting that when I initially made that post 2.5 months ago many of the detractors pointed to the fact that nobody here is selling any FR related merchandise on the forum. At this point in time, that cannot be said.

"1) There is no concrete proof of any of FR's benefits. We are talking about it on a Penis Enlargement forum, and Penis Enlargement is not even recognized by the medical industry."

On the contrary, I think there is fairly solid evidence to say that FR will definately result in a permanent substitute foreskin. The effects of said replacement foreskin will be a different sensitivity level of the glans and the natural production of penile lubricants, as well as the increased odor and hygene requirments that come with it (not a knock on foreskins, I am of the opinion that normal levels of washing and attention keep an uncut penis at entirely cleanly levels, just something for people to be aware of).

On the other hand, increased penis size, better orgasms, better erection quality, increased female sexual response, pretty much all the rest of it - well none of that is so easy to pin down, like Kong says himself.

To be clear, there's a crap shoot as to whether or not you'll experience any of those benefits, as the reports from the internet are conflictory but certainly not backed up by medical science or or scientific study. From what I've seen, many legit FR sites don't promise any of the benefits from the second paragraph, but it's up to anybody interested to decide for themselves. Like a lot of people say, you just have to believe to find out. So, you have to ask yourself, are you willing to believe in something just because a few guys on the internet say so? I imagine it will be a different process for most men.

By the way, it's a lot easier to show that some exercises can enlarge your penis to a degree - a damn site harder to show that a fake foreskin will give you superior orgasms, please your partner better, and give you better erections. However, just because it's harder to prove, doesn't mean it's more true.


"2) If you would really like to know for sure what benefits can be found in foreskin restoration, do it yourself. If you do not try it, and give it a good go, you're just talking out your down under."

Actually when you're talking about benefits like increased size and such, you don't necessarily have to be talking out of your ass to have a valid opinion. That's a false dichotomy through and through.

Take the claims about easy size increases around here - these are all based on a concept that one person on this forum invented, entirely from his own imagination. From this idea he decided that loosening skin on the penis with FR and some Penis Enlargement could easily account for fast penis size gains of an inch or more. He didn't know what percentage of men or what the actual physiology of this condition might be, he just knew he thought it made sense to him and so all guys should believe it's the case.

Well, since there are no documented cases of it that I can find anywhere, it's probably not the case that some guy with no medical pedigree whatsoever documented an as yet unheard of medical condition affecting thousands of men. In light of all that, it's not talking out of your ass to say that some of the claims are bogus. Just because one guy or some internet activism group say they're true doesn't mean much at all. In my book it means next to nothing.

"3) The anecdotal evidence given by a majority of restorers is positive, and pretty consistent."

Some of it is consistent, and how amazing that internet synergy plays out once again. Unfortuantely many FR restorers don't report the same things and none of their accounts are specifically monitored studies - they're just guys talking about themselves. There are a million people that will give you detailed evidence about their alien abduction experiences. Are you willing to believe everything they say just because they posted it on the internet?

Use your own judgement and knowledge to decide what benefits are likely, don't decide you must do it because of what some stranger on the internet writes.

"4) Suggesting that we restorers are liars, deluded or have to otherwise be saved from ourselves or kept from harming others is highly insulting. Who do you think you are? You have never even tried it!"

Unfortuantely I am made to address a person by name due to the nature of this comment.

Kong, show me something that says anybody has made a comment generalizing anybody that is interested in restoring is deluded or stupid. After all this time you still can't draw a seperation.

I don't much care after all these debates, but for the record, the perspective is against poorly supproted claims and ideas that are posted by some people - not FR or those that are interested in it.

I'm a little tired of explaining this all the time, but I don't mind making things as clear as possible for folks as well.



"5) We are free to believe what we want: whether it be restoring for cosmetic reasons, or because we feel it is some grand ideological and spiritual journey. It is not your right to judge us either way."

Once again, the word "us" is telling.

Sorry to break it to you brother, but you don't speak for every man interested in FR or restoring. You speak for yourself, so don't take the voice of others. How arrogant.

You are correct that any man if free to pursue FR for any reason he wishes, so please show me where anybody has said otherwise.

I think if anybody has read the original post be Skepdick with any clarity of mind they'll find the bulk of your comments irrelievent in the first place, but as people well know, I like things to be crystal clear.

That all being said, I don't think debate is useless or necessarily long-winded. Discussion and differing views are how advancements are flushed out, not just the assumption that what we think we know is the be-all end-all of what there is to learn.

Swank said:

I don't think debate is useless or necessarily long-winded. Discussion and differing views are how advancements are flushed out, not just the assumption that what we think we know is the be-all end-all of what there is to learn.

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I find one really good way to learn about something is through debate. Hearing the opposite side of anything as long as you are open minded will teach you.

I agree with you on that quote 110%.

Im finding this FR topic very interesting and glad so many people are taking part in it. I could never do it but it is still good to read through the articles and posts.

Thanks Kausion, that's basically what I'm going for around here. One thing I've liked a lot lately is uncut men like yourself offering your perspectives and experiences. It adds a great and necessary dimension to the discussion that didn't seem to be there before.

I'm with Kausion... regardless of where i stand on FR, i like seeing both sides.

LOL!
Man, y'all like to holler and fuss Swank, I agree with you about having things clear, I'm a scientist after all. However, having read several of your and Skepdicks' posts, I do detect a subtle bias against FR (which you may not even know that you are showing). There's no problem with having biases, just don't claim to be impartial while packing one.

Cheers!
G

BTW, Skepdick, my anecdotal observation is that keeping my glans covered has made it more moist and sensitive. My studies have revealed that that is entirely appropriate since it is a mucosal membrane. Go figure.