Help Support Animal Rights!

Hey all,

A few days ago I was talking to my mum about an ad for beef and how I used to be a vegetarian. She was saying she would like to be, and before the night was out I was looking online about animal rights and vegetarian recipes. I visited Penis EnlargementTA's webiste at www.peta.com and forced myself to watch some of the videos on the web page. I was completely appalled and sickened by what I saw.

Check out the "Horror at Agriprocessors" and tell me that it doesn't bother you. I watched videos featuring pigs that were beaten with metal rods and had poles inserted in their asses for no reason by abusive handlers. Later in the video, 2 workers are shown beating the head of a pig multiple times with a heavy wrench. The pig doesn't die, but its bleeding heavily. Then, one worker begins to cut the leg and skin off the still living pig! Some pigs that aren't growing fast enough are subjected to a process called "thumping", where they are picked up by their back legs and slammed into concrete floors over and over again to kill them. Many of them dont' die immediately but instead die slowly as they are discarded in a pile on the floor. All of this is from one (admittedly heaviy edited for effect) video. There are dozens on Penis EnlargementTA's website, and they are only an organization with an annual budget of 25 million. This is nothing compared to the multi-billion dollar industries they are up against.

I don't understand why anyone would think this kind of behavior is OK or even necessary. I propose federal legislation that eliminates the massive factory farms that breed this kind of abuse. I want stricter legislation (and in some cases, any legislation at all) regarding animal rights. Aren't we morally obligated to treat the animals we dominate reasonably? How can we not feel for their obvious fear, pain, and suffering?

I don't personally endorse all of Penis EnlargementTA's objectives. For example, they believe that animals should not be used for food or clothing at all. This is too radical for me, even though I'm going to become a vegetarian because of what I saw. But we can still improve the conditions of where we get all of our hormone and antibiotic-injected meat. Check out sources like Whole Food Markets and organic and/or open ranged meat and poultry producers.

I am going to become a vegetarian, but you don't have to become a vegetarian to support more humane treatment of animals. The abuse of animals that huge factory farmers get away with every single day is completely immoral and disgusting. Please help.

Any feedback?

I find Penis EnlargementTA to be far too radical for my tastes. They even aim to eventually ban pet ownership. Seriously, is Fido going to be better off rooming the woods undomesticating his lifestyle or curled up at the foot of your recliner?

That being said, there is no doubt that the instances of such abuse in the meat industry need to be stopped. I don't think it fairly represents the majority or the norm. My brother-in-law is a vegetarian that used to work in a slaughter house in his teens and 20s and he was just turned off by the industry as a whole, but not because of any abuse. He never saw anything like the videos capture, but just couldn't stand the smell, sights, and environments.

You do bring up some good points about the meat industry and factory farms. I'm not an expert on it, but check out this site talking about the bureaucratic draconian proposals our government is looking at putting on small farmers, which will ultimately force them to sell-off to the factory farms:

http://www.nonais.org/

This has bothered me since I was young. I am a vegetarian but just because I think that it is a healthier option nowadays. I believe that when people treat animals in such a way they should be dealt with in the same manner as if they had treated a human. I can't believe that there are people out there that would treat animals like this and IMO they are the scum of the earth. Chicken shit mother fuckers that can't deal with life and have to take it out on animals.

Slaughter houses are basically torture and murder houses but we don't see it that way because we see them as 'only animals'. That is typical human arrogance. They feel pain and they suffer just as we can. It is just plain wrong. How can any human walk around feeling good about themselves when they eat meat that comes from slaughter houses? They pretend to themselves that it doesn't happen because all they see is a neatly packaged piece of flesh in the supermarket. Ignorance is bliss.

I've just watched some of those videos. I cryed. This is what is wrong with the world.

I agree that no creature should ever be tortured or abused. But I personally can't see putting my own time and energy into saving animals when living, breathing, totally innocent human beings are being horrifically tortured, mutilated and debased every day. This happens all over the world, but even more disgustingly; it happens here in the States on an all too frequent basis.
I just can't cry over livestock when children, babies, infants are raped, tortured and killed every day. My personal belief is that human beings owe their greatest loyalty to other human beings first and then should spread their energy and effort out into the growing world.

mademeyes (spell); i agree with you to a certain extent, but lets remember that people have voices and outlets with which to notify authorities of these terrible doings. Animals do not.

From a personal point of view, i an definately not a vegetarian and enjoy meat as human beings were designed to do. I also have no problem with the killing of animals for food. What i do have a huge problem with is anything that is inhumane, wheather it be in the process of killing animals for food or if it is just some sick bastard that for some reason has to make himself feel bigger by picking on defenseless animals.
I couldnt bring myself to watch the peta videos just because im such an animal lover, I have six dogs.

Maxameyes. Your point of view is what leads to this kind of thing. If you value life then you should value animal life just as highly as human life. I'm sorry I don't believe for one moment that human life is any more important than animal life and if there were videos of slaughter houses like this involving humans then it would be an absolute outrage.

At the end of the day animals are not going around slaughtering us and the animals that are suffering are unable to speak up about it in any way. We are the ones with the power on this planet and we are the ones that cause 90% of our own misery as well. We bring the suffering on to ourselves but the animals do not. We, as the dominant, concious beings on this planet, have not only a responsibility to other humans but we have a responsibility to be caring to all life bar none and none more important than any other.

Jubie. I have to strongly disagree with you on some points. So, let me get this straight. You are an animal lover that owns six dogs and yet you think that it's OK to kill and eat animals. That doesn't sound like love worth having. It seems like love that only applies when it suits you. Also, if you want to go on eating meat then I think that it's your duty to watch those videos.

Secondly, where is your evidence that the human is designed to eat meat? In fact anatomically and physiologically, humans are just not meant to be carnivores or omnivores. The long, complicated digestive tract is designed for the slow absorption of complex and stable plant food. Carnivores such as alligators or lions have short, simple bowels to allow for minimum transit time of unstable, dead animal food. Their intestinal microorganisms are different from humans', too.

On the other hand, starch digestion in humans is quite elaborate, whereas carnivores eat little or no starch. If we were carnivores then we'd be sweating through our tongue instead of through our skin. Flesh eaters have sharp claws and teeth which are designed for tearing apart freshly killed animals. If we are really meat eaters then why do we cook our meat. We are the only creature that does that and in doing so we burn off all of the nutrients that were present in the meat. That said, even if we did eat our meat raw we wouldn't absorb any goodness from it since our system is not designed for it.

If you want to convince me that you were supposed to eat meat naturally then please go out and kill a cow with your bare hands and then tear it apart and eat it raw. That is what a natural carnivore or omnivore would do. We are simply not naturally equipped to eat meat naturally both internally and externally. If you are not satisfied with the cow experiment then by all means please try and catch a wild chicken with you bare hands (something you will never be able to do) and then rip it apart and eat it raw.

It's nice to simply go with the flow as humans and just accept the points of view of the masses about what we are even when they do crazy things like drinking another animals milk throughout their lifetimes. Yes, again we are the only creature to do that. Weird. Don't get me started on the stupid amounts of indigestible protein contained within cows milk. But, well, if everyone else does it then it must be OK. Right?

Add to all of this the fact that we are conscious and that we can understand and empathize with the animals that we kill and now you can see that humans really are on the wrong side of nature and, if you want to put it this way, God.

At the end of the day if you want to be ignorant and blissful then go ahead but don't be ignorant and active. Because, as Goethe put it, that is the most scary thing of all.

P.s. We beat you again today at home in the rugby. dig dig.

Sorry Tom, I've just got to disagree with your basic premise that an animal's life is equal to a human's life. As the father of two boys and a guy who has spent a great portion of his life teaching and mentoring kids from all walks of life I actually find equating an animal, any animal, that, left to itself may trample, abandon or even consume its own offspring with an innocent and completely helpless human infant somewhat insulting.

What I was advocating was this: If an individual feels a moral obligation to champion the rights of a helpless, defenseless creature then I truly believe that the much greater obligation is to alleviate the suffering and death of human children and infants first and foremost.

Here's a hypothetical question to consider and perhaps reflect a bit more deeply on the subject as I've presented it: Your son, your three year old son is playing in your yard when he is viciously attacked by a stray dog. You try everything you know to get the dog to release your screaming, bleeding son, when you come to the horrific realization that; if the attack does not end immediately your son will die from his wounds.

Here's my question; at that instant, is your sons life worth killing that dog? Or do you allow that dog to consume your sons flesh because it is the dogs nature, and it has an equal right to survival as your now dying son? This question, as I said, may be hypothetical to you as I've presented it, yet this very same situation has been faced by hundreds upon thousands of people all over the world since the dawn of time.I sincerely pray to God that no one would ever have to make that, or a similar choice ever again.
Think about it.

I agree that I would save my son immediately from the stray dog. I am interested in alleviating the unnecessary suffering of all life, including human suffering and animal suffering. I think there are often differences between animal suffering and human suffering, however. One problem is scale. Americans kill almost twice as many animals annually for consumption as there are people on the planet (roughly 10 billion animals annually). Almost all are killed well before they even approach the end of their natural life spans. Many are horribly abused. Animals, like children, are essentially helpless. This is why I feel so bad for them... they don't have any chance at all.

One unfortunate reality that sometimes dampens my enthusiasm for helping people is humanity's great capacity for evil, which I don't believe animals are even capable of. Only people have ever systematically eliminated millions of people (genocide). Still, I am hopeful for us, and I plan to aid my fellow man as I am able.

To summarize, my interest in helping animals is due to the scale and severity of the problem and the helplessness of the animals that we subjugate and abuse. Science has proven that animals have emotions and are capable of experiencing pleasure and pain. To me, this is more than sufficient cause to expend my energy.

Has anyone else watched the videos? They are extremely intense, but I think its a very powerful motivator. How can you not feel like shit after seeing something like that?

MAXAMEYES said:

Sorry Tom, I've just got to disagree with your basic premise that an animal's life is equal to a human's life. As the father of two boys and a guy who has spent a great portion of his life teaching and mentoring kids from all walks of life I actually find equating an animal, any animal, that, left to itself may trample, abandon or even consume its own offspring with an innocent and completely helpless human infant somewhat insulting.

What I was advocating was this: If an individual feels a moral obligation to champion the rights of a helpless, defenseless creature then I truly believe that the much greater obligation is to alleviate the suffering and death of human children and infants first and foremost.

Here's a hypothetical question to consider and perhaps reflect a bit more deeply on the subject as I've presented it: Your son, your three year old son is playing in your yard when he is viciously attacked by a stray dog. You try everything you know to get the dog to release your screaming, bleeding son, when you come to the horrific realization that; if the attack does not end immediately your son will die from his wounds.

Here's my question; at that instant, is your sons life worth killing that dog? Or do you allow that dog to consume your sons flesh because it is the dogs nature, and it has an equal right to survival as your now dying son? This question, as I said, may be hypothetical to you as I've presented it, yet this very same situation has been faced by hundreds upon thousands of people all over the world since the dawn of time.I sincerely pray to God that no one would ever have to make that, or a similar choice ever again.
Think about it.

Click to expand...

Although I can see your point, I still strongly disagree with you on some things. Firstly you made a reference to how animals at times consume their young and I agree that humans would never do that. However, how many animals (or other species) have you come across that have dropped nuclear weapons on each other. Or that have had wars, or that habitually drop bombs on their own kind. It seems to me that humans are the only species on this planet that do that. I'd trade eating a few young for wiping out entire cities any day wouldn't you?

On to the point of what I would do if I was confronted with the situation that you described. My instinct, which I would act upon, would be to get the dog off my son by any means necessary and I believe that to be natural. But I think that it is slightly different when it is a family member or friend of yours than if it was not. That said, if I was hypothetically confronted by a situation where I had to choose between either a human or any kind of animal of the same age and level of health in order to save them from certain death then I would save the human no question.

Here is what I said on this matter to begin with 'If you value life then you should value animal life just as highly as human life. I'm sorry I don't believe for one moment that human life is any more important than animal life and if there were videos of slaughter houses like this involving humans then it would be an absolute outrage.'

I think that it is very important to look at animals with the same respect and empathy as we do some other humans. But when it comes down to it we would all rightly choose our own kind over animals. That does not mean that we should not give them the same, or at least a very similar value as we do our own kind. Just imagine the outrage that would be caused if it were humans in those slaughter videos. It would be all over the news and the fact that it is not is a direct example of human arrogance in believing that we are simply more important than other animals. You can see it even in the way that we class ourselves as 'humans' and separate ourselves from the 'animals' when in reality we are animals. We are just psychologically advanced animals.

Notice also that I wrote 'I don't believe for one moment that human life is any more important than animal life' and what I mean is that universally we are not in any way more important than animals. Maybe our young mean more to us and that is fair enough but really if we had such a respect for each other above animals then would we bomb each others children?

One more point. You made up a hypothetical situation about your or my child. I think it is very important for us to value each others children at a very similar value as ones own. Too often we think that OUR children or OUR species is most important and should survive at all costs. But we're not talking about a life or death situation here, we are talking about needless cruelty and killing of millions of animals just because we like steaks and bacon. Bare in mind the fact that we are not IMO designed to even eat these things and you can see how I view the general human way of thinking is barbaric. We are also responsible for this entire planet's Eco system being about to freak out big time and yet some of us still drive around in big V8's and eat fat steaks because they are just so damn self important to think outside their little bubble of reality. 'My family is OK and I'm OK so nothing else matters.'. That is the attitude that, when coupled with some self induced ignorance, leads to slaughter houses like the ones that we are discussing existing.

We desperately need to gain some respect for our planet, each other (outside of those that we know) and other species as well as gaining an understanding of how to live in harmony with our surroundings be it ecologically or empathetically. On the whole, our levels of care and compassion have to rise significantly whether it is for animals or any other creature on this planet.

Animals are not capable of evil because they have no understanding of the concepts of good or evil. Yet they are quite capable of acts that humans would reasonably consider brutal to say the least. Look at just about any type of carnivore and their behavior. When a male lion takes over a pride he kills and eats all the cubs in that pride, this forces the females into estrus so that he can be the only genetic strain passed on. Same for many species of other felines, canines, bears.
Even chimpanzees have been found to wage war on neighboring troops, gang up, kill and eat the other lead males as well as the young. Sows quite often eat the piglets when subjected to stress, as will most species of rodent.

There was even a fascinating study of ground squirrels, (not normally thought of as blood-thirsty by a long shot), a few years ago where one of the females was tricking other females from their nests with a false distress call. When these nests were then empty of the protective mother, the female giving the false calls would go in and kill, and eat, the young she found.
None of these instances could be defined as evil, that connotes intent and consciousness, but no one would argue their brutality.

I just can't buy the argument that all of humanity is evil and all of nature benign. If such were true, then we would not be engaged in this conversation. You could ask this question of Tim Treadwell (aka Grizzly Man) if the very bears he had protected for 13 years hadn't eaten him and his girlfriend. Man may feel quite patronly and obligated towards animals....but it's by no means reciprocal. In nature you're either predator, prey or compost.

One last thing to ponder; no one grows to adulthood in a vacum. These people torturing those animals grew up somewhere in some type of environment. Do you think that if they had instead been raised to cherish life, all life, they would be capable of such cruelty?
The vast majority of people grow up exposed primarily to other human beings first, (unless raised by wolves, know what I mean), and then expand their world as their consciousness grows. If any given child is raised in an environment of neglect or abuse their potential for continuing that cruel behavior, towards all forms of life, is multiplied immensly.

If people are the cause of a problem, then people need to be the solution to that problem and the behavior necessary to effect change and stop any cruelty needs to be taught and ingrained long before it can ever be practiced. Just because some members of humanity can behave inhumanely doesn't mean that others need suffer for it.

MAXAMEYES said:

Animals are not capable of evil because they have no understanding of the concepts of good or evil. Yet they are quite capable of acts that humans would reasonably consider brutal to say the least. Look at just about any type of carnivore and their behavior. When a male lion takes over a pride he kills and eats all the cubs in that pride, this forces the females into estrus so that he can be the only genetic strain passed on. Same for many species of other felines, canines, bears.
Even chimpanzees have been found to wage war on neighboring troops, gang up, kill and eat the other lead males as well as the young. Sows quite often eat the piglets when subjected to stress, as will most species of rodent.

There was even a fascinating study of ground squirrels, (not normally thought of as blood-thirsty by a long shot), a few years ago where one of the females was tricking other females from their nests with a false distress call. When these nests were then empty of the protective mother, the female giving the false calls would go in and kill, and eat, the young she found.
None of these instances could be defined as evil, that connotes intent and consciousness, but no one would argue their brutality.

I just can't buy the argument that all of humanity is evil and all of nature benign. If such were true, then we would not be engaged in this conversation. You could ask this question of Tim Treadwell (aka Grizzly Man) if the very bears he had protected for 13 years hadn't eaten him and his girlfriend. Man may feel quite patronly and obligated towards animals....but it's by no means reciprocal. In nature you're either predator, prey or compost.

One last thing to ponder; no one grows to adulthood in a vacum. These people torturing those animals grew up somewhere in some type of environment. Do you think that if they had instead been raised to cherish life, all life, they would be capable of such cruelty?
The vast majority of people grow up exposed primarily to other human beings first, (unless raised by wolves, know what I mean), and then expand their world as their consciousness grows. If any given child is raised in an environment of neglect or abuse their potential for continuing that cruel behavior, towards all forms of life, is multiplied immensly.

If people are the cause of a problem, then people need to be the solution to that problem and the behavior necessary to effect change and stop any cruelty needs to be taught and ingrained long before it can ever be practiced. Just because some members of humanity can behave inhumanely doesn't mean that others need suffer for it.

Click to expand...

Now I think we've got somewhere. I agree with many of your points. I recently watched a documentary in which a huge hoard of hornets attacked a beehive to steal their honey. It was a total massacre. They just chomped up the bees really quickly and I think the ratio of bees to hornets was 100 to 1 but in the end the hornets had killed every single bee. Amazing documentary but poor bees.

Anyway just one point. I think that since humans are conscious and are therefore aware of any cruelty that we inflict it makes us worse for still doing. Animals are not aware in the way that we are so I don't think that what animals do to each other and what humans do to each other is comparable. Being conscious beings gives us a responsibility to be compassionate not only to our kind but to all life.

I'm sure that you agree and I'm glad that we could come to an understanding on this.

Penis EnlargementTA is too radical of an orginization to ever gain any support from me. Like many radical far left, liberal oranizations they always find the worst case scenarios and latch onto them like a leach on your ass using your emotions as triggers to get your reaction. Animals are here to serve us as we see fit because we're at the top of the food chain. I dont believe in needless suffering of my food ...being unusually cruel to a cow for example or making sure it dies a slow painful death before eating it, but these people (Penis EnlargementTA for example) get very carried away. If you do enough research on organizations such as Penis EnlargementTA you will find that they are often very hypocritical in their agendas.

Well put Tom, well put. Y'know; I actually enjoyed this, the mental workout keeps my brain from rusting shut. Plus, I like to play the Devil's Advocate once and again. Hopefully it keeps all of our minds somewhat more agile.

Stillwantmore - 'Animals are here to serve us as we see fit because we're at the top of the food chain. I dont believe in needless suffering of my food .'

Animals are not just your food. Don't you think that just maybe since we have a concioussness we should use it and be moral. It takes wisdom to be kind, but you are showing a total lack of kindness. Just because we have the power to treat animals as we do by slaughtering in this way doesn't mean that we should.

The defining trait, as discussed earlier in this thread, of a human being is empathy. So by definition you are being inhumane.

Maxam. I totally agree with you. In depth discussion can be very rewarding mentally. As long as no one lets their pride get hurt. I think at times I was and am playing the Devil's Advocate also in this thread.

Please delete.

I think Stillwantmores comment is stupid and heartless.

Those videos are fuckin sick and made me upset and I've been a cop and seen lots of nasty shit.

I love my meat, and will continue to eat it. I do think that these animals deserve and need a dignified death than what they received. A lethal injection to all the sheep one by one in a nice setting withint the location would have been much more humane.

I do not agree with animal cruelty and those who engage in it are fuckin yellow bellys and I have my self THANK GOD had the chance and shall we say JOY of kicking the fuckin shit out of one bloke from the UK who I helped arrest once for beating his dogs, cutting it with a knife, he also cut its eye out and it was later found in the sink upstairs dried into the plug hole .. NO JOKE. He also cut off cats limbs and we helped rescue many three legged cats and the cruelty was just awful and I never slept that night.

I get more upset with cruelty to animals than to humans, dont ask why perhaps its something to do with my Aspergers? I dont give a fuck but I and my partners that day made that guy pay in the back of the van on the way to the station. Pulled over into a quiet field and beat the living shit outta him ... I stamped on his face and pounded his nose against a brick.

The cunt had to be took to hospital and we belted eachother with our fists some to make it seem he had attacked us, got our stories sorted and we were fine.

Lets just say he NEVER did it again, was banned for life from keeping pets and received 8 months in prison.

I know I shouldnt have kicked his head in but it happens when your a cop as you will know from stories on the news but I dont act like those thug pigs and beat anyone, just the lowest of the lowest and if and when I can get away with it ....... why not, you would.

Finally I will agree with the comments about Penis EnlargementTA being extreme but they need to get this nasty shit out into the open so WELL DONE them for this but I will still eat meat...I hear Hel-al meat which is blessed has been killed with more dignity??

Hey Red, if I remember right you're thinking of Hallal (sp?) which is the Islamic counterpart to the Jewish Kosher dietary restrictions. One aspect of each is that an animal must be slaughtered by slitting its throat with the sharpest, most un-blemished blade possible. There are religious aspects to each also, but I'm not all that familiar.
And SWM; your assertion that man is on the top of the food chain? Sorry, INDUSTRY may be on the food chain, but humans?!? Just walk out into Yellowstone National Park with no food or gun....that chain'll shorten up right quick !

lol, hence why our tools set us a part from other animals. Our tools can get us into trouble if we abuse them though obviously. It all depends on how we use our tools of course, but the very fact that we have such sophisticated tools, yet have the capacity to come up with concepts and attribute certain actions/events as good and evil, and understand and recognize what constitutes such concepts makes us all hypocritical to a degree. We all live our lives with some sort of knowledge which makes us not so innocent. We are therefore capable of doing degrees of good and evil and then there is also apathy, which can be just as bad as any inherent evil. More to the top of the food chain point though...If you're going to go to go toe-to-toe with a bear or lion you don't have a chance, but hopefully you understand the difference between going into it with just your fists or with an assault rifle.