Andractim

really tough guy?

then why when using topical androgens (testrogel, testroxin, androgel etc...) are you warned not to come in contact with genitilia?

then what else could have caused it?
i have no other explination--my normal every day test levels are:

total test : 828 ng/dl
free test: 17 pg/ml
shbg: 24.1 nmol/l

i have no other explination as to why
i lost muscle mass
sex drive
penile size
was depressed

& this has happened twice


so you tell me "the oak"

what caused it?

Fall in the natural testproduction is very common. Bad health, stress, feeling insecure etc etc. You say you felt depressed because your test was low. It might very well be the other way around. The doses you have used were just to low. DHT itself is not that suppressive. I've seen studies in which the test production even rose a little due to the use of Proviron. The reason? Although you get extra DHT (which is suppressive) you get less estrogen (which is suppressive as well).

You should be much more concerned when using stuff like test-cream. That's not only androgenicly suppressive, but also raises the estrogen-levels. Applying to genitalia makes no difference.... unless you are female. It might be an important warning since so many users of test-cream are female.

Sorry I was such a dick. It's not my day.

i dont know bro---
bad days suck--


so you say provivron actuall "increases" endogenous test?
Hydromaxm

i thought that was the MOST supressive androgen to take---thats what the steroid profile @ steroid.com

Proviron is almost pure DHT. Unlike similar androgens that are based on DHT (Winstrol f.e.) it does not have any affinity for the estrogen-receptor. It does bind the aromatase-enzym perfectly though, blocking the transformation of testosteron into estrogen. That's why it might even raise your test as it did in some studies. Much more likely it will lower it, but only a little bit, even in doses of 150 mg per day, for months on end. Try and compare that with the dose of Andractim you took, which doesn't even garanty full absorbtion of the DHT.

If a rise in your natural test-production is what you're looking for, don't go for the enzym-blockers, but for the receptor-blockers. Very weak estrogens like Nolvadex. You never reach the end of it I'm afraid, because the use of extra estrogens (however weak) block that other important enzym, de reductase, which transforms testosterone in DHT. So you might end up with a high testosteroneproduction and a low libido, because you're hormonal balance wouldn't be androgenic enough (not enough DHT). This is important because once you discontinue the use of Nolvadex, there's still not enough DHT to prevent aromatase from doing it's job a bit too good. In my view this is one of the reasons why so many bodybuilders report a sudden outbreak of gyno months after the discontinuation of their cycle.

BB-sites are full of nonsence and repeat each other without adding new information. I'm the only real expert that is around.

I tried a variation of the Magnum/Supra protocol with very limited and temporary success. I didn't inject the Long-R3 in my unit though, only in delts. I concluded at that point DHT wasn't much use.

Since then I've been doing a very low duration/frequency/intensity protocol with infrared heating before stretching (no girth work at this point). I'd been seeing gains of about 1/16" per week for about 5 weeks before gains abruptly halted.

I keep a meticulous spreadsheet of activity including all supplements, water intake, whether I've had alcohol and how much sleep I've had (both subjectively and in hours).

The one thing that has changed in this protocol when gains stopped is that I didn't use DHT (Andactrim gel, 2.5%, 2" bead, 1/2 hour before warm up). I didn't bother because I no longer felt it was worthwhile. The protocol is only 2 sessions per week.

My second session of the week is tomorrow morning, and I'm going to add the DHT back in there to see if gains resume, so I might have some anecdotal evidence for or against this shortly.

Oak, if I recall from the last thread we conversed in, you were using very large amounts of the DHT gel, to the point where you were experiencing absorbtion limits(?) This makes me wonder about some emails I exchanged with Dr K. Michael Reicher a couple of years ago from Big Al's forum, when he was using small amounts of Androgel EOD and claiming about 1/2" per month. He claimed the EOD application was to avoid shutdown, but I wonder if it was inadvertantly the reason he saw success. I also tried something similar without results. There were some differences though. I couldn't get actual Androgel, so I got a compounded version (then later made my own from Testosterone suspension), and I used it ED.

I'm wondering if using large amounts, or using it ED would cause the AR to calibrate quickly, whereas EOD or longer intervals don't(?) It's a long shot, and probably will come to nothing, but since I already have the stuff here, I may as well try it out of curiosity. I'll post the results either way in a week or two.

Regards

Shiver

I forgot to mention that I used the DHT only once on excersise day, with at least two days inbetween. So if the label use of the gel says every 12 hours, suggesting skin depot depletes about that quickly, it means that that there's probably a 5:1 Off vs On time with DHT - a bit like micro cycles if you will. What's your opinion on the AR adaptation (quantity, sensitivity) in that scenario?

if you used the cream before your work out like a half an hour before and use some type of lube then you pry lost most of the cream it gets absorbed slowly over a long period of time.

I don't use any other cream or lube. I do only dry stretches, mostly SO from behind the glans.

This mornings routine looked productive. We're talking numbers too small here for me to make any solid claims, but knowing my routine and my body how I do, at this point I'd say it's making a difference.