Zambrodom3

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Hey boys! So, directly on topic- a month ago I purchased a 5kg bag (yes, that's how they sell them where I bought the product from) of Whey Protein. I was an ABSOLUTE IDIOT for doing this, because I did not do my research very well and later on discovered it had Soy in it. I was foolish to read the "Pure Whey Protein" sign and see the astonishingly low price of 47 pounds (around 70$) and purchase it right away.

I had NO idea Soy was bad for male potence until I recommended the supplement company to my cousin (who seems to be very knowledgeable on many topics) and while we were discussing the products the company offered, we came upon the Soy proteins and he said "Nah, I would rather avoid the Soy protein, you know what it does to male potence, right?". I've been drinking this stuff for nearly a month now (I paid for this shit dammit LMAO!) and do not think my EQ has suffered any damage, but i've got quite some more to drink you see (and what bothers me is that I have another 2-3 months till I finish this and the side effects might start occuring till then).

I just googled "Soy protein" and I came across some really interesting reads. Sadly, it seems I've made a really bad choice (well, we all learn from our mistakes don't we?). Has anyone had any experience with Soy supplementation, if yes- what were the results? Everyone is welcome to comment, I am looking forward to seeing a good and informative discussion. :)
 
I think your cousin is over thinking it. I irregularly pig out on tofu and other soy foods and, while I do have a bit more chest than I'd like because of it, I have not noticed any difference in EQ between the times I do and the times I don't have soy in my diet. If the company has lied about their product(s) then by all means complain (and use the hyped up problems to do so) but don't think you're going to suffer too majorly from this error. Chances are the protein is still doing your workout more good than harm, even if a soy free version would be superior.
 
Shenlong;633227 said:
I think your cousin is over thinking it. I irregularly pig out on tofu and other soy foods and, while I do have a bit more chest than I'd like because of it, I have not noticed any difference in EQ between the times I do and the times I don't have soy in my diet. If the company has lied about their product(s) then by all means complain (and use the hyped up problems to do so) but don't think you're going to suffer too majorly from this error. Chances are the protein is still doing your workout more good than harm, even if a soy free version would be superior.

THIS is it! :( I mean, since I want to improve my physique, having increased estrogen levels (which lowers the production of Testosterone) is not something I'd kile to have.. But I think it should be ok- it is not a Soy protein, it is a protein that just contains Soy LMAO! :)
 
This is a pretty complete read, I'll drop the link and then paste the entire thing below in case that site is less stable across time than MoS is..

Additionally a couple of important ones they missed ..

-Soy is a potent concentrator of manganese. Normally, manganese is an essential mineral nutrient used in dozens of body processes including wound healing, glucose utilization in metabolism, and an antioxidant effect in the event of fast rephosphorylation of ATP in the mitochondrial energy cycle. (the emergency re(oxidative)phosphorylation pathway is called the Electron Sparks Side Chain .. and it will chew you up and burn you out. You ever see young runners in great shape drop dead for 'no reason', this was it), manganese fights that. So, everyone needs manganese .. but when Soy tries to concentrate it to levels 200 times higher than normal it makes it into a neurotoxin. Add fluoride to that from water or toothpaste etc and you get another leap of superpotentiated toxicity. Yay.

-The sheer amounts of estogenic effects are undereported .. because they're shocking and no one would buy Soy anymore. Someone on a soy protein can encounter environmental/nutritive estrogen levels 13,000 times higher than normal .. like taking several birth control pills every day. (This goes back to a recent post on the effect of environmental estrogens in diminished penis size). For the male, their body will try to aromatize it into something else, but there will still be seven or more fractions of the original phytoestrogen present and one of them is the biologically active and very powerful estradiol. If you have a powder which in only partially soy, you can probably divide it as a percentage from the full-soy figure, ie - 20% of 13,000 would be 2,600 times the normal amount .. etc. (still very high).

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Linky: Natural Health News and Wellness Tips: 12 Reasons To Avoid Any Kind of Soy

12 Reasons To Avoid Any Kind of Soy
Tuesday, January 28, 2014

Soy has become a major source of toxicity for human beings, especially in the last three decades. Not only is more than 99% of soy genetically modified, but sources labeled organic or non-GMO are often exposed to the same problems as conventional soy. If you consume processed foods, soy is almost impossible to avoid. With the exception of wheat, there are few foods that are causing as many health problems as soy in the food supply. Here are 12 reasons to avoid any kind of soy.

1. Soy Reduces Assimilation of Minerals

Phytic acid is present in the bran or hulls of all seeds and when we compare the phytate of soy to many other types of beans and nuts, the percent mass is not that far off, but that's not the problem. The problem is how much we are consuming. Most people stuck on the soy bandwagon are consuming far more phytate by the sheer volume through mass consumption of things like soy milk, tofu, cereals, and processed foods. It doesn't even compare to the amount they would consume through seeds and nuts. The effect of phytic acid on iron absorption has been thoroughly studied. As evident in a study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, as phytic acid increases, it has a diminishing impact on iron while inhibiting its absorption. This applies to almost every major mineral including zinc--one of the most important minerals for the human body.Two billion people may now have zinc deficiency. Phytates bind to zinc and thereby decrease its bioavailability. Phytic acid levels in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc.

2. Soy Causes Growth Problems and Even Cancer In Children

The phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. Consequenty thse high phytate diets have caused growth problems in children. Combined with the presence of both phytoestrogens and arsenic, soy-based formulas are a disease promoting ticking time bomb for infants. A studypublished in the peer-reviewed journal The Prostate, revealed that humans exposed to a combination of both toxicants were almost twice as likely to develop cancerous cells in their prostate. While it is established that both arsenic and estrogen can cause cancer, the research raises concerns about the dangers of chemicals in combination, and the efficacy of regulations that are established by testing one chemical at a time. True cancer of the prostate, carcinoma, is seldom seen in infants and children, but other forms of malignant tumors may develop and more cases are appearing in developed nations where the link appears to center around soy infant formula. While many claims have been made about the health benefits of these estrogen-like compounds, animal studies indicate that soy (both conventional and organic) contain powerful endocrine disrupters that alter growth patterns and cause sterility. Soy formula is also laden with toxic chemicals such as aluminum and manganese, which can cause both physical and mental health problems, learning disabilities, brain damage, and behavioral problems. A study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that the highly concentrated phytoestrogens in soy formula weaken the immune systems of babies. Toxicologists estimate that an infant exclusively fed soy formula receives the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.

3. Soy Linked To Cancer

The Chinese did not eat unfermented soybeans as they did other legumes such as lentils because the soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients". First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These inhibitors are large, tightly folded proteins that are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking. They can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. What about the Japanese? The Japanese, and Asians in general, have much higher rates of other types of cancer, particularly cancer of the esophagus, stomach, pancreas and liver. Asians throughout the world also have high rates of thyroid cancer. The logic that links low rates of reproductive cancers to soy consumption requires attribution of high rates of thyroid and digestive cancers to the same foods, particularly as soy causes these types of cancers in laboratory rats. Just how much soy do Asians eat? A 1998 survey found that the average daily amount of soy protein consumed in Japan was about eight grams for men and seven for women - less than two teaspoons. Americans are consuming amounts far exceeding this quantity. Thousands of women are now consuming soy in the belief that it protects them against breast cancer. Yet, in 1996,researchers found that women consuming soy protein isolate had an increased incidence of epithelial hyperplasia, a condition that presages malignancies. A year later, dietary genistein was found to stimulate breast cells to enter the cell cycle - a discovery that led the study authors toconclude that women should not consume soy products to prevent breast cancer.

4. Soy Promotes Infertility

Soy beans contain genistein, a natural compound that has estrogenic effects because it binds the estrogen receptor with relatively high affinity. A study in the Journal Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology showed that dietary genistein exhibits a strongly increased estrogenic effect and cautionary attitude towards the consumption of large amounts of soy or soy supplements is warranted to prevent infertility. Another study in the journal Obstetrics and Gynecology International found that soy ingestion increases amniotic fluid phytoestrogen concentrations in female and male fetuses. Phytoestrogens daidzein and genistein may, alone or in combination with other chemicals, function as endocrine disruptors, with potentially adverse effects on male reproductive function.

5. D-Glutamic Acid

Natural glutamate in plants and animals is known as L-glutamic acid. Our normal digestive process slowly breaks down this natural or "bound" glutamic acid and it is then delivered to glutamate receptors in our body and brain. Broken down this way, it is harmless. However, factory, artificially bound D-glutamic acid in soy is broken down or made "free" by various processes (hydrolyzed, autolyzed, modified or fermented with strong chemicals, bacteria, or enzymes) is toxic to the human body. Since free glutamate can be a component part of certain food additives, such as hydrolyzed soy protein and cheap soy sauce, it is essentially unregulated when it comes to labeling standards. Many people who are very sensitive to D-glutamic acid experience respiratory, neurological, muscular, skin, urological and even cardiac symptoms.

6. High Levels of Aluminum

Soy has to go through a process to become soy protein isolate. Acid washing in aluminum tanks, which is designed to remove some of the antinutrients (but the results often vary widely), leeches aluminum into the final product. Aluminum can have adverse effects on brain development and cause symptoms such as antisocial behavior, learning disabilities. alzheimer's disease and dementia. Harsh alkaline soaking solutions are used mainly in the production of modern soy foods such as soy protein concentrates, soy supplements, soy protein shakes, textured soy protein (TSP), etc. Much of the trypsin inhibitor content can be removed through high-temperature processing, but not all. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein isolate can vary as much as fivefold.

7. Blocks Production of Thyroid Hormone

In 1991, Japanese researchers reported that consumption of as little as 30 grams or two tablespoons of soybeans per day for only one month resulted in a significant increase in thyroid-stimulating hormone. Soy foods have a high concentration of goitrogens which block production of thyroid hormones. Scientists have known for years that soy-based formula can cause thyroid problems in babies. Scientists Daniel Sheehan and Daniel Doerge, from the National Center for Toxicological Researchpresented findings from rat feeding studies, indicating that genistein in soy foods causes irreversible damage to enzymes that synthesise thyroid hormones. Soy consumption is associated with thyroid disorders such as hypothyroidism, goiter, and autoimmune thyroid disease (ATD) as well as increased iodine requirement in certain cases.

8. Causes Allergic Reactions

Soy is one of the top allergens--substances that cause allergic reactions. Today, soy is widely accepted as one of the "big eight" that cause immediate hypersensitivity reactions. Some 28 different proteins present in soy have been found to bind to IgE antibodies. It's also worth noting that the more soy protein you eat, the more likely you are to develop allergies to it -- and the more severe those allergies are likely to become. Delayed allergic responses to soy are less dramatic than the top allergens like peanuts or shellfish, but are even more common. These are caused by antibodies known as immunoglobulins A, G or M (IgA, IgG or IgM) and occur anywhere from two hours to days after the food is eaten. These have been linked to sleep disturbances, bedwetting, sinus and ear infections, crankiness, joint pain, chronic fatigue, gastrointestinal woes and other mysterious symptoms. Food "intolerances", "sensitivities" and "idiosyncrasies" to soy are commonly called "food allergies", but differ from true allergies in that they are not caused by immune system reactions but by little-understood or unknown metabolic mechanisms. Strictly speaking, gas and bloating--common reactions to soy and other beans--are not true allergic responses. However, they may serve as warnings of the possibility of a larger clinical picture involving allergen-related gastrointestinal damage. The soybean industry knows that some people experience severe allergic reactions to its products. In a recent petition to the FDA, Protein Technologies International (PTI) identified "allergenicity" as one of the "most likely potential adverse effects associated with ingestion of large amounts of soy products".

9. Genetically Modified

Any ingredient listed as soybean or soy on any product ingredient list has a 93% chance of being GMO if it is not listed as organic. But even organic soy cannot be trusted. Soy is very problematic crop. Non-organic sources of soy in many agricultural practices are being passed off as organic. In 2011, the USDA uncovered a plot to import fraudulent organic certificates produced by an uncertified supplier in China. The Chinese firm used the counterfeit certificate to represent non-organic crops, including soybeans, millet and buckwheat, as certified organic. These types of things are happening every year and only a fraction are being discovered. Even domestically sourced organic soybean crops are now being investigated for having GMO origins. Organic soy also does not change the toxicity of unfermented sources so abundant in the food supply.

10. Most Soy is Unfermented

Phytates in unfermented soy products actually obstruct absorption of protein and four key minerals: calcium, magnesium, iron, and zinc better than fermented sources. In their natural form, soybeans contain phytochemicals with toxic effects on the human body. The three major anti-nutrients are phytates, enzyme inhibitors and goitrogens. These anti-nutrients are the way nature protects the soybean plant so that it can live long enough to effectively reproduce. They function as the immune system of the plant, offering protection from the radiation of the sun, and from invasion by bacteria, viruses, or fungi. They make the soybean plant unappetizing to foraging animals. All plants have some anti-nutrient properties, but the soybean plant is especially rich in these chemicals. If they are not removed by extensive preparation such as fermentation or soaking, soybeans are one of the worst foods a person can eat. The net protein utilization of unfermented soy is 61 which quite low. The most common soy (99%) sold at major grocery retailers in soy milks and processed foods is unfermented soy. It is deadly. Unfermented soy has been linked to digestive distress, immune system breakdown, PMS, endometriosis, reproductive problems for men and women, allergies, ADD and ADHD, higher risk of heart disease and cancer, malnutrition, and loss of libido. Fermented sources of soy such as natto, miso, tempeh and some fermented tofus are likely the only types of soy that should be consumed by humans and that's only if you can get around the crap shoot that they're non-GMO and organic (which there is no guarantee despite labeling).

11. Enzyme Inhibitors

When food is eaten, digestive enzymes such as amylase lipase and protease are secreted into the digestive tract to help break it down and free nutrients for assimilation into the body. The high content of enzyme inhibitors such as trypsin in unfermented soybeans interferes with this process and makes carbohydrates and proteins from soybeans impossible to completely digest. When foods are not completely digested because of enzyme inhibitors, bacteria in the large intestine try to do the job, and this can cause discomfort, bloating, and embarrassment. Anyone with naturally low levels of digestive enzymes such as elderly people would suffer the most from the enzyme inhibiting action of soy. In precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus, in tofu and bean curd, growth depressants are reduced in quantity but not completely eliminated.

12. Immunotoxic

The prevalence of autoimmune diseases has significantly increased over the recent years. It has been proposed that this epidemiological evidence could be in part attributable to environmental estrogens, compounds that display estrogen-like activity. Environmental estrogens can be found in phytoestrogens which occur in soy. There is a considerable burden of evidence both in vitro and in animal models that these compounds exert immunotoxic effects. Phytoestrogens drastically reduce not only the size of the thymus, but also the bone marrow cavity as well, the sites where most deletion of autoreactive cells occur. Isoflavones, which are phytoestrogens present in large quantities in soy and soy-derived products, inhibit protein tyrosine kinase, and exert other effects in the body such as exacerbating the clinical course of this autoimmune disease.

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Thanks for the amazing post Asanon! As usual, your posts are top quality! Well, this speaks enough for the protein, "Milk & Soya (from Soya Lecithin)." , "Undenatured Whey Protein Concentrate 82%, Instantising Agent (Soya Lecithin).".... Thank you for the GREAT post! By the way, I know you are into weightlifting as well, what kind of protein fo you prefer? hydrolyzed, islolate, concentrate, whey, egg protein etc. Just wondering, you seem to be VERY knowledgeable on that topic. :)
 
Thanks Zam, same to you!

Projects and guests getting all my time, I'll try to do this as a drive-by (but then I always want to go "and btw here's the twenty other things too.." )

what kind of protein fo you prefer?

The best ones are a mix of types. They (Next Nutrition, way back) figured out that they could exceed 100% on the nitrogen scale -- Previously set as being the performance of a whole Egg at 100%, and other macro proteins as a ratio to that ... chicken at like 77% (iirc) etc. Some whey types eventually got up to 168 "%" ... so the "%" was dropped, since now it's irrational, and everyone tried to jump on that bandwagon. Thing they figured out though was that those wheys were taken in so fast that they caused unnecessary insulin reactions as if they were a sugar, and didn't stay in the system long enough to actually cause the sort of recovery ability which their nitrogen abilities should have been predicting. So the state of the art then was to slow down that response, use a mix of types .. since each has some virtue the other doesn't .. and use marketing to act like XYZ's mix was the best and everyone else was garbage.. when really they're all pretty similar, and many of them come from the same few super large companies, just with rebadging to seem like a distinction warranting a high price.

These choices might not be common in your part of the world. More importantly isn't "who" they are but simply that they're competent to the current level of the technologies and don't overcharge prices. -- For years .. more than ten .. I've used mainly Optimum Nutrition. Their Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard is super popular for a reason. Two or three years ago I switched to their natural line:

Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey Gold Standard Natural Whey
and
Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard Natural 100% Casein

The casein is micellar, which is top notch and used to cost a Fortune. Optimum's use of it (imo) forced everyone else to try to use it again and not to rip off for price.

Here's a link that should pull up the amino profile on the whey http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71qktyahL7L._SL1500_.jpg

Not arguing -for- the brand .. just for its competence, good mix of types, good profile spread, lots of glutamine, decent amount of leucine. If you do branch chains ... leucine does almost all the work and its a lot cheaper to get powdered leucine by the tub container than spend way more on BCAA caps or etc. btw it tastes Awful and doesn't like to mix into a shake, but the science says it does over 3/4 of the BCAA recovery.

I'll mix these, the whey and casein, 66% whey, 33% casein .. ratios, pretty similar to mother's milk out of the teat. Plus berries and norwegian fish oils, almond butter or walnut butter, and organic coconut MCT oil, etc. Can write more on a quick shake vs an entire shake another time maybe.

Can up the casein ratio for lasting longer through sleep. There's also a larger moleculed nighttime line called Platinum Tri-Celle Casein that takes even longer to digest. Tried it, it's fine but not worth the extra trouble of having a third product sitting around imo.

What else quickly? The grass-fed wheys are fine, I'd prefer them if I had some serious health issue to overcome but for working out I don't find their various potential globulin effects worth the 3 or 4 x jump in price. Don't overconsume liquids when eating, it thins out your stomach acid and wastes some of your food as it escapes undigested and spends its energy instead trying to cause allergic reactions in the intestines. Don't drink cold liquids ever with food for more of the same reason plus congealing of fats.

Get liquids before or between meals rather than with them. Can even, if trying to drop adipose, drink cold liquids on purpose when food isn't in the gut to burn up another 200 etc calories per day as your body has to waste energy to heat them back up.

Powders are great but get macro too. Anyone arguing dogmatically for either one or the other is an idiot. Get both. I saw that Chris Evans is on a good balance when bulking up for the Captain America movies, so as a larger answer that's the kind of stuff I do unless pressed for prep time .. check link, top trainer info, catcha :cool:

Bodybuilding.com - Captain America's Training Plan

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I just had cytogainer that's what all the guys at the gym took
 
Asanon;633763 said:
I'll mix these, the whey and casein, 66% whey, 33% casein .. ratios

Why mix them? You take that in the morning so you can have a steady protein absorbation throughout the day? The way I do it- post workout I drink Vitargo ( Vitargo - The best carbohydrate in the world ) mixed with some Creatine Monohydrate, Aplhalipoic Acid, AAKG, Multivatimen Complex and Glutamine. 30 minutes later I drink the "fast" protein so I provide it in the "window phase post workout". Before bed- I just drink some milk (I know a farmer, she's got her own cows and it is all 100% organic, that's where i take my eggs from as well- she's got loads of animals) to get me the casein I need, I do not take casein supplements.

Thank you for the AMAZING advices, really! That's what I am studying by the way- bodybuilding and health- I go to a specialized college (I have A LOT more to learn, but with time- I surely will! :)). Are you a professional bodybuilder by the way, do you work as a trainer? You really seem to be VERY knowledgeable on most topics! Thank you again! :)
 
I have always had a fear of soy. When I was a kid my Mother used to grow soy beans under the kitchen sink and when ever I say them I thought they were long, deformed spiders. To this day I will not touch them, never mind ingest them. Fears are a strange thing, they can stick around far past the point of rational understanding.
 
doublelongdaddy;633791 said:
I have always had a fear of soy. When I was a kid my Mother used to grow soy beans under the kitchen sink and when ever I say them I thought they were long, deformed spiders. To this day I will not touch them, never mind ingest them. Fears are a strange thing, they can stick around far past the point of rational understanding.

Well, it is a good thing you fear soy. Better stay away than near! :)

tkto;633792 said:
They said soy burgers taste as good a meat burgers.

It is not about taste tkto, it is about health. :)
 
Shenlong;633868 said:
They sure don't taste the same.

True! Might taste good if seasoned well, right spices etc.etc.. But I rather stay away. I've had a hamburger where the patty was made of beans, not soybeans though, but other beans. And I regard that as one of the best burgers I've had! Definitely better than the burger I had yesterday, which was a meat burger.

Too bad for Zam for making the purchase. Mistakes do happen and we must forgive ourselves and move forward. Next time you'll know better. Even though I like supplementation, I've never been that big on these protein shakes / powders etc..
Well, for me they are quite unnecessary, as I don't go to a gym, training is this and that, mostly I just focus on my penis. But of course the whole body matters, without a well-functioning body the penis doesn't want to play!
It's been studied, that a good erection can be a measure of a man's health.

So much off-topic stuff! Cool story by DLD, interesting memory from the past!
 
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