Another Religion Thread- The Crucifixian

[Kal-el]

I know, I know, not another damn religion thread. But I really get into talking about religion- especially Christianity. So, let's talk about Jesus' crucifixian. If Jesus was indeed a brilliant and crafty a man as Christians say, or God in human form, he was well aware of what happenings his ministry would set in motion. So, why was it necessary to continue along this path? Why do you think he found it necessary to push his enemies to the threshold of killing him? As God he could have easily avoided committing suicide by this rather oblique route, and continued preaching, yet that's what he did.

Is there some reason Jesus could not have lived to a ripe old age? Would it not have still brought salvation to those who believe in him? Or was his crucifixion etc. just a publicity stunt, pulled off to make his story a better sell? if God was indeed in the ground for 3 days, who was in charge of heaven, was it this guy?

 

[SwedishChef]

It wouldn't have been as dramatic? Which do you think sounds more like an epic legend:

"He hung on the heavy wooden cross with whip wounds all over is battered body, and after a Roman solider stabbed him in his chest with his lance, the son of god died."

or

"He lived to be a ripe old Jewish man, going down to the market every Tuesday to preach, barter for fake beards and buy a nice apple crisp to enjoy at home with a school of nice Vanilla ice cream and some Miracle Whip."

 

[Kal-el]

It wouldn't have been as dramatic? Which do you think sounds more like an epic legend:

"He hung on the heavy wooden cross with whip wounds all over is battered body, and after a Roman solider stabbed him in his chest with his lance, the son of god died."

or

"He lived to be a ripe old Jewish man, going down to the market every Tuesday to preach, barter for fake beards and buy a nice apple crisp to enjoy at home with a school of nice Vanilla ice cream and some Miracle Whip."

Of course the former is more picturesque and/or dramatic. But this is my whole point. If Jesus was God in the flesh, then he is omniscient correct? If that's true, he committed suicide by letting himself get killed knowingly. As suicide is defined as "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself. " ref. But the idea of anything, much less the crucifixion, is all faith. I'd say the story of getting yourself double-crossed, wisked away for judgement, found guilty, and then enduring a very picturesque death, Plus dissapearing from your grave is definetly a much better story than holding a few sermons to preach a message, then simply relinquishing life and that's all.

 

[SwedishChef]

....What exactly are we arguing/discussing again?

if God was indeed in the ground for 3 days, who was in charge of heaven, was it this guy?

God is also described at omnipotent, so he wouldn't have to get Mr Hoff to manage Heaven. He could be on Earth, watch the Godfather 5 times and do the taxes at the same time.

 

[Juggers]

Jesus lived to fulfill the prophecies of the old testament. Your taking what the bible states out of cont-ex and putting it rather bluntly...God cannot die, he is spirit. However, God can send himself down to earth as a Son and die as a human...think about it, he is God. The fact is, Jesus' death on the cross, however unnecessary it may seem to you is the only thing that pleases God enough to have mercy on you. Furthermore, the crucifixion was the worst punisHydromaxent he could have gotten from the people at that time...symbolically, our sins were crucified on the cross with him so that we would be without sin if we believed in him. Its all really in the bible...why he died, why God sent him. I dont know if that helped you at all but this topic is really hard to discuss.

 

[The BTC Killer]

It is written that Jesus new of his fate and that was his destiny. Without the sacrifice, Christianity just wouldn't be the same. My wife said, "I will leave you, if I don't go to church with me." I was like, "what would Jesus say?" That's not the proper attitude of a Christian!
In conclusion...
<center>
"

I have to go to church"</center>

 

[Kal-el]

Jesus lived to fulfill the prophecies of the old testament.

Yes, and uphold all of the OT cruelties (stoning disobedient children, beating slaves, etc, etc, etc) as well. I'm sure you wouldn't want to argue this, as you wouldn't want to disagree with the carpenter, would you?

Your taking what the bible states out of cont-ex and putting it rather bluntly...God cannot die, he is spirit.

Out of context? In all my experience, that seems to be the consensus from Christians when their Holy Book is shown to have errors in it. If you say I'm taking a verse out of context, you're practically admitting it's fallibe and open to interpretation. If it's infallible, it's impossible for fallible humans to take something perfect out of context.

However, God can send himself down to earth as a Son and die as a human...think about it, he is God.

You're correct, sure he can, but that would mean he desires blood sacrifices then. Because if that's the case, sometime he decided to commit cannibalism on himself. Certain sects of Christianity cannot even come to agreement about whether Jesus was God or if he was the son, Jesus even seems confused.

The fact is, Jesus' death on the cross, however unnecessary it may seem to you is the only thing that pleases God enough to have mercy on you.

Just a little tip here- You should probably stop talking for your God. If I adulated him, I sure as hell wouldn't want to tick him off, he's one mean S.O.B. Let me ask you something Juggers, seriously, do you believe in Santa, the Easter bunny, Allah?

Furthermore, the crucifixion was the worst punisHydromaxent he could have gotten from the people at that time...

Agreed. But there's no proof of a crucifixian. Throughout all of the Roman records, there's no proof, hell there's not even proof of a Jesus. If one cannot prove it, you shouldn't base an entire religion off of baseless dogma.

symbolically, our sins were crucified on the cross with him so that we would be without sin if we believed in him.

Wow, what a waste of time this little stunt was, sin is still plentiful in the world. This "God" fellow is a real screwup, as he must of fell asleep considering the sin issue, as he could have made us perfect from the start, then he wouldn't have to kill all of humanity except 9 people in the biggest wholesale genocide ever in the flood.

Its all really in the bible...

See, there's my problem. Don't get me wrong, the bible is quite a page turner. I have read it in it's entirety. But the bible simply defies all common sense and reason, it's just an article of faith. It has nothing to do with rationality. I would think you need faith in order to buy into an incoherent, contradictory collection of books. I take the bible about as seriously as a tabloid.

why he died, why God sent him. I dont know if that helped you at all but this topic is really hard to discuss.

Yea, yea, I apologize if I come off kinda rude, but I just get on edge when people spew all this stuff and all they have to offer is a book full of contradictions. In ending my part, I used to be a Christian, reading the bible turned me into an athiest. I refuse to follow the rest of the herd and believe in something which I know is in question, it's being dishonest with yourself. I refuse to suBathmateit to the Christian superstition, as it seems all who do not believe will be tortured and killed.

 

[Juggers]

All of your opinions are as valid as mine Kal-el. It is a book of exactly that, faith, and a person either WANTS to beleive willingly, even though he or she isn't exactly sure what is going on. Call it blind faith, but thats life. This is the beauty of it all, you said you were a Christain at one point and used to read the bible, but that in turn, transformed you into an athiest. It would appear to me that you have little faith, and are living on reason alone. But then again I don't know you at all so I am probably wrong. Anyone can argue about the bible being a lie and God not existing, but it takes curage and a sense of purpose to actually live in the faith you proclaim.

 

[Kal-el]

All of your opinions are as valid as mine Kal-el. It is a book of exactly that, faith, and a person either WANTS to beleive willingly, even though he or she isn't exactly sure what is going on. Call it blind faith, but thats life. This is the beauty of it all, you said you were a Christain at one point and used to read the bible, but that in turn, transformed you into an athiest. It would appear to me that you have little faith, and are living on reason alone. But then again I don't know you at all so I am probably wrong. Anyone can argue about the bible being a lie and God not existing, but it takes curage and a sense of purpose to actually live in the faith you proclaim.

Great diatribe their Juggers, and I agree with you 100%. I'd say the big thing in my life that got me questioning, was in 2000, when I was hospitalized because of a certain illness I have. I kept asking myself, please God make me better, day after day. And you know what, I did get better, but it was because of the antibiotic I.V.s, and all the medicine I was on, no supernatural sky pixie. I did alot of thinking in the hospital, and I came up with the fact that it's a logically impossibility to be omnibenevolent (perfectly loving, loving all of his children), and omnipotent (all powerful, can solvent anything) at the same time. There's too much evil in this world for a loving, all-powerful skydaddy to exist. Mankind has compounded way too much sufferings for an omnimax mystical, God to exist. A while after my hospital stay, I actually sat down and managed to plow through the Bible, mostly to get some answers, and see what all this God business was about. I got answers alright, but not the ones I was looking for. I think the Bible is the most murderous, gruesome book that man has ever concocted. I don't get why some parents forbid their children to play violent video games, but then hand them Bibles, go figure.

 

[Juggers]

Great diatribe their Juggers, and I agree with you 100%. I'd say the big thing in my life that got me questioning, was in 2000, when I was hospitalized because of a certain illness I have. I kept asking myself, please God make me better, day after day. And you know what, I did get better, but it was because of the antibiotic I.V.s, and all the medicine I was on, no supernatural sky pixie. I did alot of thinking in the hospital, and I came up with the fact that it's a logically impossibility to be omnibenevolent (perfectly loving, loving all of his children), and omnipotent (all powerful, can solvent anything) at the same time. There's too much evil in this world for a loving, all-powerful skydaddy to exist. Mankind has compounded way too much sufferings for an omnimax mystical, God to exist. A while after my hospital stay, I actually sat down and managed to plow through the Bible, mostly to get some answers, and see what all this God business was about. I got answers alright, but not the ones I was looking for. I think the Bible is the most murderous, gruesome book that man has ever concocted. I don't get why some parents forbid their children to play violent video games, but then hand them Bibles, go figure.

So it was cause and effect for you...something happened to you that changed your perspective on life, something that made you question your faith, ultimately changing you for better or worse. Instead of giving God the credit of saving your life or having mercy on you, you lend the hand to technology and science. Again its a decision you choose to believe, was God in your favor, or did you just get lucky? I don't know what to tell you, but I can tell you that I have prayed, and miracles have happened that I can't explain. You expected God to intervene, you wanted to get better and you did.

 

[Juggers]

I just found out what diatribe ment and I didn't mean for it to sound like that, if it did lol.

 

[Kal-el]

So it was cause and effect for you...something happened to you that changed your perspective on life, something that made you question your faith, ultimately changing you for better or worse. Instead of giving God the credit of saving your life or having mercy on you, you lend the hand to technology and science. Again its a decision you choose to believe, was God in your favor, or did you just get lucky? I don't know what to tell you, but I can tell you that I have prayed, and miracles have happened that I can't explain. You expected God to intervene, you wanted to get better and you did.

Juggers, why would I give an invisable man credit for something? To be fair though, if you give him credit for answered prayers (Btw, what is the purpose of prayer, what can we possibly tell an all knowing entity that it doesn't already know?) also credit him for the bad happenings. When something bad happens, I hear Christians blame it on man's free will. Well, that doesn't get this "God" fellow off the hook at all. A loving god would not allow free will if it is the cause of human evil. If he did indeed create everything, he created the conditions necessary for the said event to take place, hence he is either directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down.

 

[Kal-el]

It is written that Jesus new of his fate and that was his destiny. Without the sacrifice, Christianity just wouldn't be the same. My wife said, "I will leave you, if I don't go to church with me." I was like, "what would Jesus say?" That's not the proper attitude of a Christian!
In conclusion...
<center>
"

I have to go to church"</center>

Wow, BTC, that's pretty harsh man. So, she's forcing you to share in her delusion? Here's a banner for ya'll:

 

[Juggers]

Juggers, why would I give an invisable man credit for something? To be fair though, if you give him credit for answered prayers (Btw, what is the purpose of prayer, what can we possibly tell an all knowing entity that it doesn't already know?) also credit him for the bad happenings. When something bad happens, I hear Christians blame it on man's free will. Well, that doesn't get this "God" fellow off the hook at all. A loving god would not allow free will if it is the cause of human evil. If he did indeed create everything, he created the conditions necessary for the said event to take place, hence he is either directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down.

Well, I don't think the purpose of prayer is to tell God anything exactly as you are implying...but to ask God for things that you need of Him ect....You are saying that God could be directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down (including evil things), and that its not mans free will. I remind you that Satan is actually a factor in mankind's lives too, and the forces of evil. Man gives credit to many things he cant understand or see, so giving an invisible being credit for something isn't too far fetched in this day and age.

 

[Kal-el]

Well, I don't think the purpose of prayer is to tell God anything exactly as you are implying...but to ask God for things that you need of Him ect....

If it's to ask him for things, that's kinda implying he's a giant, invisable Santa. If he even answers 1, he's sadistic then. Because millions of people with cancer are praying at this minute for his help, and why would he blow them all off and only answer 1? If he has the power to help 1, help them all. You cannot have it both ways.

You are saying that God could be directly or indirectly responsible for everything that goes down (including evil things), and that its not mans free will. I remind you that Satan is actually a factor in mankind's lives too, and the forces of evil.

Well, my friend, your invisable sky cadet created Satan. And if he's all knowing, he created Satan with the full knowledge that he would turn and reak havoc on his creation. Hardly loving. Ohh, and according to your book, Satan is only responsible for 1 death by dropping a house on Job's kid, whereas God makes Hitler look like Mr. Rodgers.

Man gives credit to many things he cant understand or see, so giving an invisible being credit for something isn't too far fetched in this day and age.

Umm, name 1 thing man gives credit to that he doesn't understand nor see. I am wracking my brain tryin to think of 1 instance, anyway an invisable sky monkey who sprang out of nothingness doesn't fit into the equation.

 

[Pandora]

Umm, name 1 thing man gives credit to that he doesn't understand nor see. I am wracking my brain tryin to think of 1 instance, anyway an invisable sky monkey who sprang out of nothingness doesn't fit into the equation.

Life God gave us Life.

And also Satan is an angel cast out of heaven.

 

[More Meat]

Life God gave us Life.

And also Satan is an angel cast out of heaven.

Life happened naturally my friend, there was no mystical entity that zapped humans down on the planet. There aint no heaven; there aint no hell; their aint no God- deal with it.

Sorry I dont mean to be mean, but this stuff really fires me up- I cant believe that people really still believe in all this mysticism in this day and age. Ive had many an argument with people about religion and have argued the best of them into the ground simply because religion and believing in religion just doesnt make sense. Your believing in something that isnt there- have fun with that.

 

[Pandora]

Life happened naturally my friend, there was no mystical entity that zapped humans down on the planet. There aint no heaven; there aint no hell; their aint no God- deal with it.

Sorry I dont mean to be mean, but this stuff really fires me up- I cant believe that people really still believe in all this mysticism in this day and age. Ive had many an argument with people about religion and have argued the best of them into the ground simply because religion and believing in religion just doesnt make sense. Your believing in something that isnt there- have fun with that.

Haha lol so you say but you dont know this nobody knows this.

thats the whole point nobody knows.

 

[Juggers]

Haha lol so you say but you dont know this nobody knows this.

thats the whole point nobody knows.

Well, we can be sure we die someday, then you will know the truth. Until then faith is the onlything to grasp. As far as I am concerned, I have the right to beleive in what I want, as well as anyone here.

Kal-el, Satans turning against God, even if God did know, has nothing to do with God's love. Free will is free will. God loves people even if they turn against him.

 

[Pandora]

Well, we can be sure we die someday, then you will know the truth. Until then faith is the onlything to grasp. As far as I am concerned, I have the right to beleive in what I want, as well as anyone here.

Kal-el, Satans turning against God, even if God did know, has nothing to do with God's love. Free will is free will. God loves people even if they turn against him.

Does dieing scare you. I think i am afraid to die in case i don't come back or don't end up somewhere.

As the saying goes
You only live once make the most of it.