Another Religion Thread- The Crucifixian

[Kal-el]

Nar i cant see that happening we have the Internet now technology can only go forward.

You seem to not get my point here, you don't know how people thought of the stories that have become religion when they were first told. It may very well have been considered crazy to believe that such stories were real.

Further, you are also hypothesizing that people in 2,000 years will know that Jeoph Loeb or Stan Lee were actual people. They might think that they were mythological characters, some scribe whose job it was to write down the adventures of Superman in the same way that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are acknowledged the writers of the stories of Jesus.

To add to this, comics are not all we have of Superman, or Spiderman. We have movies, novels, discussion groups, songs, and other shit. We have no idea what will survive into the future and what will not, (i.e. the internet) so we can't even guess how future generations would interpret the technology, media we use now. Time has a way of gradually evolving what people think of a subject or an event so that what we know to be true often gets mixed up with what we don't know to be false. That's why people still believe we found WMDs in Iraq, and Marilyn Manson had a lung removed so he could suck himself off.

While it would seem to us in this time and place that belief in Superman is absurd, separated by time, that belief is absolutely possible. The same is true of Christianity, and that's where I was getting at.

My point is things just don't happen to me it feel as tho they have to be created so there has to be a creator.

O, the infamous "God of the Gaps". Science cannot explain it, so right away God did it. Well, the Big Bang is not a fact, but it sheds more light on the subject than any religious theory outthere. Religion just states that God did it, at least science has the smarts to have a map and ask questions. I have a question for you- if the single attribute of being created depends on a maker, who made God?

If its bullshit why has it not been forgotten allready why is there so many fellows.

You can't be serious, can you? This is a classic arguement from popularity. You're basically saying that since so many people believe in God, they must be right? Well, how many people used to believe the earth was flat before technology was discovered to make it known? Whether it's a God or a flat earth, all those beliefs come from a primitive mindset or understanding of nature based on distorted data.

 

[Pandora]

You seem to not get my point here, you don't know how people thought of the stories that have become religion when they were first told. It may very well have been considered crazy to believe that such stories were real.

Further, you are also hypothesizing that people in 2,000 years will know that Jeoph Loeb or Stan Lee were actual people. They might think that they were mythological characters, some scribe whose job it was to write down the adventures of Superman in the same way that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are acknowledged the writers of the stories of Jesus.

To add to this, comics are not all we have of Superman, or Spiderman. We have movies, novels, discussion groups, songs, and other shit. We have no idea what will survive into the future and what will not, (i.e. the internet) so we can't even guess how future generations would interpret the technology, media we use now. Time has a way of gradually evolving what people think of a subject or an event so that what we know to be true often gets mixed up with what we don't know to be false. That's why people still believe we found WMDs in Iraq, and Marilyn Manson had a lung removed so he could suck himself off.

While it would seem to us in this time and place that belief in Superman is absurd, separated by time, that belief is absolutely possible. The same is true of Christianity, and that's where I was getting at.

Technology will only go forward come on were gonna go back to being a cave man yeah right lol.

Its not the same what you are saying will never happen there will never be a superman but God may walk on earth again.

O, the infamous "God of the Gaps". Science cannot explain it, so right away God did it. Well, the Big Bang is not a fact, but it sheds more light on the subject than any religious theory outthere. Religion just states that God did it, at least science has the smarts to have a map and ask questions. I have a question for you- if the single attribute of being created depends on a maker, who made God?

God made himself or obviously his God lol but that is a good one.

You can't be serious, can you? This is a classic arguement from popularity. You're basically saying that since so many people believe in God, they must be right? Well, how many people used to believe the earth was flat before technology was discovered to make it known? Whether it's a God or a flat earth, all those beliefs come from a primitive mindset or understanding of nature based on distorted data.

OK so why have they not discovered weather god exists yet then, they have sure had enough time.

 

[prince Albert]

The truly sad part of the whole situation is that all the people who are duped by the rabid lies of Christianity have children, and they brainwash them into blindly accepting the very same lies and absurdities.

That is very true,if you ask people who believe in god the question "Why do you believe in god" they often carn't give you an answer.

Ive been an atheist since about 11 or 12,my wife on the other hand is a believer but not in the normal church goer sense.

I don't have a problem with those who choose to believe,if it makes them happy then why not.

We agreed to raise our kids without pushing religion onto them,they can learn about it themselves when they are old enough to grasp the idea and if they want to believe then fine.

Just recently my oldest daughter who is 7 came home from school and started talking about adam and eve,jesus and a fair bit of other stuff.

The scarey thing is that when i asked her if she believed what she had been told she said yes the teacher told me it must be true.

I think this is one of the reasons that alot of adults are prepared to blindly believe in god because from a young age they are basicaly brainwashed into accepting religion as fact.

 

[Kal-el]

That is very true,if you ask people who believe in god the question "Why do you believe in god" they often carn't give you an answer.

Ive been an atheist since about 11 or 12,my wife on the other hand is a believer but not in the normal church goer sense.

I don't have a problem with those who choose to believe,if it makes them happy then why not.

We agreed to raise our kids without pushing religion onto them,they can learn about it themselves when they are old enough to grasp the idea and if they want to believe then fine.

Just recently my oldest daughter who is 7 came home from school and started talking about adam and eve,jesus and a fair bit of other stuff.

The scarey thing is that when i asked her if she believed what she had been told she said yes the teacher told me it must be true.

I think this is one of the reasons that alot of adults are prepared to blindly believe in god because from a young age they are basicaly brainwashed into accepting religion as fact.

So true. I personally have only been an atheist for a few years, outspoken anyway. For a couple years I was basically sitting on the sidelines, quietly, while theists and atheists battled it out. Atheism is the clear and rational alternative to confusion, fear, and superstition that's offered by a religion. Atheism encourages freedom of thought and inquiry, while religion requires unquestioning obedience and blind faith. My main problem with religion stems from the lack of evidence behind them. Every single religion claims they are right, and to me, that is enough proof that they are wrong.

 

[Kal-el]

Technology will only go forward come on were gonna go back to being a cave man yeah right lol.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said time has a way of evolving. I don't think the internet will be around in 2,000 years, I'm quite sure they'll be something 100x better. For the sake of arguement, let's say a disaster strikes and wipes most of humanity out. Then 100s of years later, humanity begins again. One day people are searching, and they find a Bible. Then they find a DC comic. Who's to say what they are gonna think. Who's to know if they find a Tom Clancy book, how will they know it's fiction?

Its not the same what you are saying will never happen there will never be a superman but God may walk on earth again.

Says who? Please define this God. God spoke frequently throughout the OT, why haven't we heard him since? Laryngitis? Dude, if you can't prove it it's baseless dogma, text from a contradictory book of legends proves nothing. Please admit that's this "God" idea is your opinion and not truth. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

God made himself or obviously his God lol but that is a good one.

His God? So, the Christian God didn't create evything? I was under the opinion that it is believed that he literally sprang out of nothingness to create the world in 6 days, and needed to rest on the 7th? God made himself, what was he bored? A perfect entity shows no emotions. Before we argue on and on, you must prove this:

1. Define God
2. Prove such an entity exists
3.Prove that he had a son
4. Prove that he can raise the dead

After you can prove.. Scratch that. Just define your God, then we'll talk.

OK so why have they not discovered weather god exists yet then, they have sure had enough time.

Hey, hey science takes time. I'm sure you don't tell a surgeon how to operate? Well they have not found a white-bearded sky despot anywhere. The more science advances, the less space your God occupies. if there was a God, and he was Loving, like you claim, why don't he make himself known? I have a nice, comfortable chair in my room, that's waiting for God to park his fat ass on.

 

[Pandora]

Did you even read what I wrote? I said time has a way of evolving. I don't think the internet will be around in 2,000 years, I'm quite sure they'll be something 100x better. For the sake of arguement, let's say a disaster strikes and wipes most of humanity out. Then 100s of years later, humanity begins again. One day people are searching, and they find a Bible. Then they find a DC comic. Who's to say what they are gonna think. Who's to know if they find a Tom Clancy book, how will they know it's fiction?




Says who? Please define this God. God spoke frequently throughout the OT, why haven't we heard him since? Laryngitis? Dude, if you can't prove it it's baseless dogma, text from a contradictory book of legends proves nothing. Please admit that's this "God" idea is your opinion and not truth. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.





His God? So, the Christian God didn't create evything? I was under the opinion that it is believed that he literally sprang out of nothingness to create the world in 6 days, and needed to rest on the 7th? God made himself, what was he bored? A perfect entity shows no emotions. Before we argue on and on, you must prove this:

1. Define God
2. Prove such an entity exists
3.Prove that he had a son
4. Prove that he can raise the dead

After you can prove.. Scratch that. Just define your God, then we'll talk.





Hey, hey science takes time. I'm sure you don't tell a surgeon how to operate? Well they have not found a white-bearded sky despot anywhere. The more science advances, the less space your God occupies. if there was a God, and he was Loving, like you claim, why don't he make himself known? I have a nice, comfortable chair in my room, that's waiting for God to park his fat ass on.

Why don't you prove that he does not exist

 

[Kal-el]

Why don't you prove that he does not exist

C'mon Pandora, you know better than that man. I don't have to. Theists are making the positive claim here, hence they have the obligation to prove it; the burden of proof is on them. Like I said before, if I said I was abducted by aliens, taken aboard a UFO, would you believe me? Probably not, thus I would be rquired to produce evidence in order to be taken seriously. The same is true of your invisable man. Atheism does not claim that God doesn't exist; just that they lack a belief in any Gods. Atheism is the default position. Every child was an atheist at birth. It isn't until they are literally brainwashed a God belief that they accept it.

 

[Pandora]

C'mon Pandora, you know better than that man. I don't have to. Theists are making the positive claim here, hence they have the obligation to prove it; the burden of proof is on them. Like I said before, if I said I was abducted by aliens, taken aboard a UFO, would you believe me? Probably not, thus I would be rquired to produce evidence in order to be taken seriously. The same is true of your invisable man. Atheism does not claim that God doesn't exist; just that they lack a belief in any Gods. Atheism is the default position. Every child was an atheist at birth. It isn't until they are literally brainwashed a God belief that they accept it.

The proof is the Bible and apparently aliens do exist we are not alone:D

 

[Kal-el]

The proof is the Bible and apparently aliens do exist we are not alone:D

Throughout the pages of the bible, you're skydaddy is shown to be a jealous, trivial, serial killer diety. He has killed more than the worst depsots did all time, he had a 2,000 page book written about himself so he can brag about himself. He advocates hatred, intolerance, and violence. God is so "loving" and "forgiving" that he punishes people eternally for crimes committed in a finite lifetime. The bible is simply an article of faith, and faith happens when one doesn't accept reality at face value. Not to mention, the bible contradicts itself at every corner. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible correct, any more than you can use a DC comic to prove that kids can fly. You seem to be failing to acknowledge a simple idea here. The bible is the sole source of the claim that God exists, hence it cannot be used as evidence to support itself.

 

[Pandora]

Throughout the pages of the bible, you're skydaddy is shown to be a jealous, trivial, serial killer diety. He has killed more than the worst depsots did all time, he had a 2,000 page book written about himself so he can brag about himself. He advocates hatred, intolerance, and violence. God is so "loving" and "forgiving" that he punishes people eternally for crimes committed in a finite lifetime. The bible is simply an article of faith, and faith happens when one doesn't accept reality at face value. Not to mention, the bible contradicts itself at every corner. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible correct, any more than you can use a DC comic to prove that kids can fly. You seem to be failing to acknowledge a simple idea here. The bible is the sole source of the claim that God exists, hence it cannot be used as evidence to support itself.

lol

 

[Kal-el]

You guys should check out this documentary. Dawkins makes alot of good points.

 

[prince Albert]

For those that believe in god,do you believe in the theory of evolution?

 

[Kal-el]

For those that believe in god,do you believe in the theory of evolution?

I don't have a God belief, but I'd like to put my 2 cents in if you don't mind. I have met quite a few Christians who are scientific; but most of them are diests. They think a god created everything, then had nothing to do with it. I can almost buy that; cause these people don't claim anything about their diety. So I'm an agnostic when it comes to diests. I would venture to say that anyone who takes the bible literally cannot subscribe to the evolutionary theory. For example, in Genesis the theory of evolution describes death as occuring naturally, not caused by punisHydromaxent by God. Talking serpents, trees that can give eternal life, humans capapble of living 930 years, that's totally asinine. Not to mention a catastrophic flood that could cover the whole earth would upset the earth's orbit, and would not dissapear in the time given. Let's go on to Noah's ark, it's totally ridiculous that every species of animal was gathered there, what about the dinousaurs? Bringing each animal from all corners of the earth would take alot of time, and God gave Noah a week's notice before he committed wholesale genocide.

 

[Kraft]

Kal-el, you're coming off quite angry in this thread, degrading religious people and all. I know I've done it before, but I've found points get across much easier if you're calm about them. That you are attacking may make some think that you can't defend your own beliefs well, thus you try destroy other people's.

Dawkin's is quite hostile in that documentary, his comparing the preacher to the nazis. One I enjoyed was Jonathan Miller's 'Brief History of Disbelief'. Great interviews, there is also a follow-up with full interviews.

All you need is some presuppositionalist to come in here and ask a few questions, your anger would make you jump the gun, dig yourself a hole and you'd be in a swamp of semantics and accounting for everything in no time.

Furthermore, many people identify themselfves by their religion, or it is what helps them get through the day. Attacking their religion is about the same as an assault on their character.

Just saying be careful, relax and try to move past religion. You're an atheist, so move on, get past it and live your life.

As to the crucifixion, some of the mythicist case seems to have merit. Though I think the Jesus written of in the bible was somewhat of a composite of different god-men, there was likely a real guy who was crucified. I think the story of turning over the tables in the temple is likely real and what got him in major trouble.

 

[Kal-el]

Kal-el, you're coming off quite angry in this thread, degrading religious people and all. I know I've done it before, but I've found points get across much easier if you're calm about them. That you are attacking may make some think that you can't defend your own beliefs well, thus you try destroy other people's.{

Hey kraft, long time, huh? I really don't mean to come off as mean, but like I said before, I just get on edge when people make all these claims, and all they have to support these wild claims is a book full of errors. You should know better than anyone, that athiesm has no belief. As far as I know, atheism is based on reason, not faith. I only reject the existence of God for exactly the same reason Christians reject Allah, Zeus, or Dynosis. I'd say you don't need a "belief" to reject these. I'd also say it's fairly reasonable to assume, in the overwhelming absence of any imperical evidence for the Christian God, that it just doesn't exist. No faith or belief required. But I suppose I'm preaching to the choir here, you probably already know all this.

Dawkin's is quite hostile in that documentary, his comparing the preacher to the nazis. One I enjoyed was Jonathan Miller's 'Brief History of Disbelief'. Great interviews, there is also a follow-up with full interviews.

Dawkins does get extreme at times, yes.

All you need is some presuppositionalist to come in here and ask a few questions, your anger would make you jump the gun, dig yourself a hole and you'd be in a swamp of semantics and accounting for everything in no time.

Well, in all honesty in 2 1/2 years, that has never happened. But you could be right about that.

Furthermore, many people identify themselfves by their religion, or it is what helps them get through the day. Attacking their religion is about the same as an assault on their character.

Just saying be careful, relax and try to move past religion. You're an atheist, so move on, get past it and live your life.

Actually, I have many friends that identify themselves as Christians. Most Christians I know are logically sound, intelligent people, except when it comes to the bible. I might have some built up anger towards Christians, as most Christians have a certain "aura" around them, they think they are better than everyone because they believe an invisable man has their backs. I know, I was a Christian for 14 years.

As to the crucifixion, some of the mythicist case seems to have merit. Though I think the Jesus written of in the bible was somewhat of a composite of different god-men, there was likely a real guy who was crucified. I think the story of turning over the tables in the temple is likely real and what got him in major trouble.

I'm pretty sure that the Jesus written of in the bible never existed. It's all thefts from other religions, and there's too many similarites between him and the Egyptian God Mithra. But, if I'm wrong and he did exist, it still does not proove his divinity.

 

[Kraft]

Has been a while, saw some of the world and am working in Chile at the moment.

But I suppose I'm preaching to the choir here, you probably already know all this.

Pretty much. I have heard an argument about atheism actually being a belief in regards to the existance of god(s), having no beliefs about the issue would mean you have no position in regards to it. This still wouldn't mean the atheist has the positive case to prove a negative, the burden would still be on the person making the existential claim about god(s). That seems like so much pajas mentales though...

Like the classic Stephen Roberts quote, "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

Consider yourself lucky you've never run into a presuppositionalist. Debating them is like bashing your head against a wall. "oh, you want to use empiricism, please justify empiricisim. You want to use induction, answer Hume's 'problem of induction', you want to use logic, account for logic." link That's a basic outline of the position. It has become popular on many discussion boards and among Calvinists.

Actually, I have many friends that identify themselves as Christians. Most Christians I know are logically sound, intelligent people, except when it comes to the bible. I might have some built up anger towards Christians, as most Christians have a certain "aura" around them, they think they are better than everyone because they believe an invisable man has their backs. I know, I was a Christian for 14 years.

I was thinking more along the lines of people that have Christianity as a center of their lives, not simply those that self-identify as Christian. From many atheist I know, they too seem to think they are something special, because they were able to "escape" from religion. Wearing that as some kind of badge of honour.

With Jesus, yeah, I just think he was a man, and the biblical Jesus mashed him together with many other god-men, dying and rising saviours and so on.

 

[nobody]

Hey Kal-el. I just read through this thread. I admit I didn't read it word for word. I'm supposed to be getting ready for work and am just being lazy. First thing I have to say. You obviously have so much doubt and anger about all this. You say you come from a strong Christian background and obviously know more scripture than the average Joe, more than me I'll freely admit. I find this rather interesting since because of this attribute in you, by all rights you should see how little weight your doubts actually carry. You feel that if YOU don't understand things, if YOU don't agree, if it's not YOUR will, if it's not "logical", if it can't can't be proven RIGHT NOW TODAY then it must all be a load of crap.

In many respects I'm a baby Christian. I wasn't raised with a strong Christian background at all, I just basically have been drawn to God on my own since an early age. I fell off the path many a time, as have you. Reading through the majority of your posts in this thread I thought how similar you sounded as to a child who rises against his father or mother because the child in question does not understand why he or she is being disciplined or told to do something. Just about any adult on the planet can recall times during their own youth when they hated their parents and thought they were full of crap. Years down the road though with the passage of time and maturity they finally understand why their parents did what they did. The former child realizes how wrong he or she was this whole time, and that his or her parents had it right all along.

In my personal life I've had numerous occasions to see the the "proof" of God. I won't go into all that here because most non-believers would say I was just a nut or another "Jesus freak" (fyi to all readers:that's like calling a black man a nigger, not cool and not appreciated). I wouldn't be able to prove all my experiences to you either. That doesn't change the fact that I lived it and I've seen it all with my own eyes and felt it in my own heart.

For someone who has a strong familiarity with the Bible I'm surprised you haven't mentioned something. Remember in Revelations, something to the effect: "Woe unto he that adds to or takes away from these works". I picked up on that little morsel as a teen. To me I see that as God's "NO TRESPASSING" sign. Why does anyone usually put up a "NO TRESPASSING" sign? Usually because someone HAS trespassed before and it was not appreciated by the owner of the property. It's a known and documented fact that many works were left out of the Bible. It stands to reason that there are probably some things in there that are not of God too. I believe that's why he put up his "sign".

If we walk in faith and not by sight we can discover all this for ourselves. Kal-el, just because you don't understand or agree with something or everything in the Bible doesn't mean you are right. Even if we reach a ripe old age we are still just "children" and He is the Father. If we constantly throw our faith on our own will and not His we live only as men and men will always fail. When we suBathmateit to His will he protects us, often from ourselves. He knows our needs more than we ever will. His will goes beyond all understanding and logic. How can we as men, for even the shortest moments, think that our human minds and hearts can grasp the mind and will of God himself? Satan thought himself capable of this too... look what happened to him.

 

[Kal-el]

I just read this..woo.

Hey Kal-el.

¡Oye! nobody

I find this rather interesting since because of this attribute in you, by all rights you should see how little weight your doubts actually carry.

Really? You're a fantastic judge of character, aren't you? Then why don't you try shedding some Xian light on some of my ideas. Let's start now. Paul needed an eye-witness encounter with Jesus to believe. The disciples faith were'nt grounded until the last supper, they didn't believe he ressurected, they needed to see it, hell even Thomas had to touch Jesus' wounds to believe. Why was doubt ok then, but nowadays if you doubt, you're singled out and called a heteric?

You feel that if YOU don't understand things, if YOU don't agree, if it's not YOUR will, if it's not "logical", if it can't can't be proven RIGHT NOW TODAY then it must all be a load of crap.

Thank you for the huge sweeping generalization about me.

Reading through the majority of your posts in this thread I thought how similar you sounded as to a child who rises against his father or mother because the child in question does not understand why he or she is being disciplined or told to do something. Just about any adult on the planet can recall times during their own youth when they hated their parents and thought they were full of crap. Years down the road though with the passage of time and maturity they finally understand why their parents did what they did. The former child realizes how wrong he or she was this whole time, and that his or her parents had it right all along.

Flawed analogy bud. Actual parents manifest themselves. The entity you call God has not proven he is anything more than a figment of people's imaginations.

In my personal life I've had numerous occasions to see the the "proof" of God.

Please enlighten me. And how many people were killed by the Tsunami in Asia? Katrina? Religious wars? The twin tower disaster, etc, etc. Where was your God during all this chaos?

I won't go into all that here because most non-believers would say I was just a nut or another "Jesus freak" (fyi to all readers:that's like calling a black man a nigger, not cool and not appreciated). I wouldn't be able to prove all my experiences to you either. That doesn't change the fact that I lived it and I've seen it all with my own eyes and felt it in my own heart.

That's fine if that's enough for you. If it proves a man in the clouds is hovering over you, protecting you while millions of kids with terminal illnesses pray, hey.

For someone who has a strong familiarity with the Bible I'm surprised you haven't mentioned something. Remember in Revelations, something to the effect: "Woe unto he that adds to or takes away from these works".

How about this:
2 Peter 1:20

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation

I especially like how Xians randomly decide when a verse is literal or figurative.

Psalm 19:7

The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

And this is the kicker:

Isiah 40:8

The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."

So if his word stands forever, that must mean that slavery is still fine and acceptable, after all, God said slavery is alright, so who's to say otherwise?

If we walk in faith and not by sight we can discover all this for ourselves.

Translation:

If we walk in faith and not by sight, logic, or reason, we can blindly believe things exactly as a child.

Kal-el, just because you don't understand or agree with something or everything in the Bible doesn't mean you are right.

I realize this, but who's to say Xians are right? The mere fact that I can find an obvious different meaning in certain verses should tell you something about your imaginary friend's omnipotence.

Even if we reach a ripe old age we are still just "children" and He is the Father. If we constantly throw our faith on our own will and not His we live only as men and men will always fail. When we suBathmateit to His will he protects us, often from ourselves. He knows our needs more than we ever will. His will goes beyond all understanding and logic. How can we as men, for even the shortest moments, think that our human minds and hearts can grasp the mind and will of God himself?

Ok, how the hell do you know all of this? Does the bible explain all of this? Or are you making this up? Is this just wishful thinking presented as fact here? The main problem here is your presuming to speak for God, how do you know it's intentions? And that little tidbit about his will going beyond us, well how do you know then that he wants worship? How are we to understand his book of laws? If nobody can understand him, why do you feel the need to act like his secretary? How can you possibly make sweeping posititve assertions about such an entity?

Satan thought himself capable of this too... look what happened to him.

Let me ask you a few questions, be careful how you answer: Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe in Jonas being swallowed by a whale? Do you believe Adam was God's son? And on the subject, what happened to Satan? I can't see anything bad. if you say he's in hell, seperated from God, then you are detracting from his omnipresence, he is everywhere right?

 

[nobody]

I just read this..woo.



¡Oye! nobody



Really? You're a fantastic judge of character, aren't you? Then why don't you try shedding some Xian light on some of my ideas. Let's start now. Paul needed an eye-witness encounter with Jesus to believe. The disciples faith were'nt grounded until the last supper, they didn't believe he ressurected, they needed to see it, hell even Thomas had to touch Jesus' wounds to believe. Why was doubt ok then, but nowadays if you doubt, you're singled out and called a heteric?




At what point did I single you out and call you a heretic? Way too many fraudulent Christians out there give us a bad name. A true Christian knows that it is never his or her place alone to judge and punish another. You are being facetious and rather off the mark by calling me "a fantastic judge of character". I'm not judging your character or your summation as a person, I'm judging and commenting on your expressed written opinions herein, which you have invited others to do by starting this thread in the first place. Doubt wasn't okay back in the time of Christ and it isn't okay now. You and I are both human though, so it is our nature to be highly susceptible to this doubt.




Thank you for the huge sweeping generalization about me.




Where's this huge sweeping generalization you speak of on my part against you? The ENTIRETY of your posts in this thread go on and on about how God doesn't make sense, He's a hypocrite if He exists at all, and how he's just a figment of every body's imagination, including mine. None of it makes sense or is justifiable in YOUR eyes so therefore it's all a load of crap. So if you go on and on about all this and I simply point out as much... what gives?





Flawed analogy bud. Actual parents manifest themselves. The entity you call God has not proven he is anything more than a figment of people's imaginations.




There are many examples of God proving his existence. A huge one is the parting of the Red Sea. Science even backs this up, but since science is of man we can't figure out how this was done. My mother was an archaeologist by the way. Her faith was not strong until her last years but in her circles there were numerous occasions where her and her colleges had come across physical evidence that completely supported Biblical record.





Please enlighten me. And how many people were killed by the Tsunami in Asia? Katrina? Religious wars? The twin tower disaster, etc, etc. Where was your God during all this chaos?





Half of the events you mention here are acts carried out by MAN, not God. You are making the age old sin of blaming God for the acts of men. You know the Bible already so we both know I shouldn't have to tell you this. Time and time again God has told us this world is wicked and it will pass away. If we are of this world we will share it's fate. We have free will remember? Your train of thought here is the same as a felon who blames his nature on a troubled childhood or lack of opportunity compared to the rest of society. The blame game never works.




That's fine if that's enough for you. If it proves a man in the clouds is hovering over you, protecting you while millions of kids with terminal illnesses pray, hey.




Again refer to my statements above. Millions of prayers ARE answered but you fail to mention this. Here's an example you'll never believe but I'll say it anyway. One of the pastors from a former church of mine had a sister with A.I.D.S. To make a long story short her doctors are going nuts because suddenly she doesn't have A.I.D.S. anymore, and the miracle wasn't from any of those so called cocktails. Pretty much the same story with my ex-wife's father. He suddenly developed diabetes and almost died, constant prayer and faith led to a completely clean bill of health. Here's the flip side for you, my mother died of cancer. She prayed for healing like crazy just as we all did for her (family friends, church family, co-workers, etc.). I watched her take her last breaths when only moments before she was pleading to God shouting, "I choose life!" It was not God's will that she stay on this world. Who am I or anyone to questions His will? Like I've said before, He often saves us from ourselves. To save us sometimes He has to "take" us. Capisci?






How about this:
2 Peter 1:20


I especially like how Xians randomly decide when a verse is literal or figurative.

Psalm 19:7


And this is the kicker:

Isiah 40:8


So if his word stands forever, that must mean that slavery is still fine and acceptable, after all, God said slavery is alright, so who's to say otherwise?





You like to claim (with derision) others randomly decide when verse is literal or figurative... but then you do the EXACT same thing. Hmmm...





Translation:

If we walk in faith and not by sight, logic, or reason, we can blindly believe things exactly as a child.



TRUE faith changes you. "Scales fall from the eyes", you know that type of thing. There is no overnight miraculous change (at least for most of us), it can take years, perhaps even a life time. You can know the Bible inside and out, go to church all the time, whatever. If you are just going through the motions all the time and not truly suBathmateitting to God you're never going to get anywhere. I don't know you personally but I find it extremely interesting that with your stated background you are so against the idea of faith and God. If you had spent all this time as a TRUE Christian and had a strong daily prayer life, God would have given you what you needed to be at peace with Him, and with yourself for that matter. It's about a personal relationship with God, Kal-el. He speaks to us all in a way that is unique and meant for us alone.





I realize this, but who's to say Xians are right? The mere fact that I can find an obvious different meaning in certain verses should tell you something about your imaginary friend's omnipotence.



Again refer to my above statements.




Ok, how the hell do you know all of this? Does the bible explain all of this? Or are you making this up? Is this just wishful thinking presented as fact here? The main problem here is your presuming to speak for God, how do you know it's intentions? And that little tidbit about his will going beyond us, well how do you know then that he wants worship? How are we to understand his book of laws? If nobody can understand him, why do you feel the need to act like his secretary? How can you possibly make sweeping posititve assertions about such an entity?




How do I know this? Yes the Bible clearly explains this, I'm kind of disappointed you even have to ask. Just so you know I'm not "making this up":

Proverbs 3:5-7

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

How is this me presuming to speak for God? ? How are we to understand his book of laws? Faith and prayer. It's all very simple AND very complicated. Like anything else in life no one is going to just hand you the answers man, you gotta earn them. I don't "feel the need to act like His secretary", nor do I appreciate your tone. I was respectful in my post to you but you cannot say the same. As to how I can make such sweepingly positive assertions about such an entity. Pretty simple. My faith is strong as is my prayer life. If you can't understand and appreciate that then any further exchanges between us on this matter are moot to say the least.




Let me ask you a few questions, be careful how you answer: Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe in Jonas being swallowed by a whale? Do you believe Adam was God's son? And on the subject, what happened to Satan? I can't see anything bad. if you say he's in hell, seperated from God, then you are detracting from his omnipresence, he is everywhere right?

No need for me to be careful here but thanks anyway. Yes I believe in satan, met quite a few of his running buddies up close and personal too, not fun. I believe in what is written about Jonas but if you want try and play me on that go right ahead. People love to point out how "crazy" the Bible is. Things are not always what they seem and things can hide in plain sight. Many "Christians" are adamant about the nonexistence of extraterrestrials but the Bible is pretty clear about "Sons of God/Nephlim". I've shut up many a Bible thumper with that one. Just one of many examples on that subject. Yes I believe God created Adam (not sure if that qualifies as "son"). Again if an ambush is in wait for me fire away by all means. I know the "apple" wasn't an apple, the unexplained appearance of others, that type of thing. As to satan, come on, like we really have to cover that one? Yes God is omnipresent. Just how exactly does satan being in hell detract from this? ? Yes I know satan gets to walk the yard from time to time so to speak btw.

Kal-el I don't think I'm any better than you. I'm not a fraudulent Christian. I've met plenty of those in my time and they do not serve God, they serve His competition. Whether you realize it or not I truly appreciate the fact that you have some actual knowledge of what you speak. This last year or so many of the threads and posters here have become mentally deficient and about as constructive as a bullet to the head. Your intelligence is to be applauded, just try not to be the loudest member of your audience.

Peace.

 

[Kal-el]

At what point did I single you out and call you a heretic?

I wasn't referring to you, personally. It's just that Xians in general are in the habit of arguing as if they are correct.

Way too many fraudulent Christians out there give us a bad name. A true Christian knows that it is never his or her place alone to judge and punish another.

Exactamente. May I ask, what is your background?

Doubt wasn't okay back in the time of Christ and it isn't okay now. You and I are both human though, so it is our nature to be highly susceptible to this doubt.

I beg to differ here. There's 2 verses I found which say belief is ONLY good when it is supported by evidence.
1 Thessalonians 5:21

21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Proverbs 14:15

A simple man believes anything,
but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.

Jesus many times throughout the Gospels throws hissy fits and gets ticked at his disciples for not believing and having little faith; he even goes so far as to call Peter a name cause he doesn't seem to grasp the message behing one of Jesus' obscure parables. In Acts, I think it's around chapter 4 (I can't find it now) but the disciples are referred as "ignorant and unlearned." C'mon Peter denies him 3 times, I'd say he doubted this guy was the real thing.

There are many examples of God proving his existence. A huge one is the parting of the Red Sea. Science even backs this up, but since science is of man we can't figure out how this was done. My mother was an archaeologist by the way. Her faith was not strong until her last years but in her circles there were numerous occasions where her and her colleges had come across physical evidence that completely supported Biblical record.

Please nobody. Give me 1 example of God proving his existence, non-biblical. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible correct. C'mon, you seem smarter than this, that's just like me using a DC comic to prove Superman exists.

Half of the events you mention here are acts carried out by MAN, not God.

It doesn't matter. If he created us, (For this exersize we are assuming the bible correct), he ALONE is responsible for the inadeqacies of what he created in humans.

You are making the age old sin of blaming God for the acts of men.

Yes, and rightfully so. Alright imagine this little scenario: Let's say I construct a maze with all sorts of booby traps, knife's falling from the roof, etc. Then I put a few humans in there. Now if anyone gets dismembered by a sharp object, would you say it's his fault? No way, I could have constructed a much safer maze with less hazards. So I ask you this, If God created all things, how is he not implicated either directly or indirectly?

You know the Bible already so we both know I shouldn't have to tell you this. Time and time again God has told us this world is wicked and it will pass away.

Again, he has acted irresponsibly if he cannot create an ideal world. And, I found some verses where God says the earth won't pass:

Psalms 37:29

the righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.

Psalms 78:69

He built his sanctuary like the heights,
like the earth that he established forever.

Ecclessiastes 1:4

Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever

If we are of this world we will share it's fate.

I'm not disputing that.

We have free will remember?

Free will and omniscience are contradictory. If God is omniscient, he knew millenia ago that I would be typing this now, so I literally have no choice, I must do it. I am unaware of this, I think I am choosing.

Your train of thought here is the same as a felon who blames his nature on a troubled childhood or lack of opportunity compared to the rest of society. The blame game never works

Dude, I know this evil thing is man's fault, I don't believe in a supernatural boogeyman. I'm just trying to show how ridiculous this belief is, we cannot be held responsible for actions that an omniscient God knew we would do.

Again refer to my statements above. Millions of prayers ARE answered but you fail to mention this.

An answered prayer is all in the mind. Ok, Let's say 11 people are critically suffering from cancer. And they are all praying to the same God to help out. And lets say God helps 1 out of 11 of them out. Alot of people will claim a miracle if that happens, and that God is so loving. I think they need to start thinking out of the box here. Is it really considered honorable if you have the power, to only heal 1, when you can heal them all? That's condemning 10 of them to suffer the rest of their lives. Now you would have a point and your God could be exonerated in this little exersize if he overcomes acting like this with love, if not, he is nothing more than a sadistic tyrant.

Here's an example you'll never believe but I'll say it anyway. One of the pastors from a former church of mine had a sister with A.I.D.S. To make a long story short her doctors are going nuts because suddenly she doesn't have A.I.D.S. anymore, and the miracle wasn't from any of those so called cocktails. Pretty much the same story with my ex-wife's father. He suddenly developed diabetes and almost died, constant prayer and faith led to a completely clean bill of health. Here's the flip side for you, my mother died of cancer. She prayed for healing like crazy just as we all did for her (family friends, church family, co-workers, etc.). I watched her take her last breaths when only moments before she was pleading to God shouting, "I choose life!"

I'm deeply sorry about your mother man. That story is exactly the same thing I was talking about above. If he has the power to cure 1 person with the hiv, why not all? That's a cruel thing to do. After all, he is responsible for causing disability. Like I said above, he can be exonerated if he overcame this and cured everyone, but since he doesn't, that simply leads me to believe either God is imaginary, or else he is a nasty tyrant.

It was not God's will that she stay on this world. Who am I or anyone to questions His will?

O man. So if it's God's will that you go out and make all these ���� tapes with 13 year-old girls, and kill 25 people you will? Something doesn't seem quite right about that statement.

You like to claim (with derision) others randomly decide when verse is literal or figurative... but then you do the EXACT same thing. Hmmm...

C'mon nobody. Let's try an honest approach to this. Where have I ever claimed something is meant to be either literal or figurative?

TRUE faith changes you. "Scales fall from the eyes", you know that type of thing. There is no overnight miraculous change (at least for most of us), it can take years, perhaps even a life time. You can know the Bible inside and out, go to church all the time, whatever. If you are just going through the motions all the time and not truly suBathmateitting to God you're never going to get anywhere. I don't know you personally but I find it extremely interesting that with your stated background you are so against the idea of faith and God. If you had spent all this time as a TRUE Christian and had a strong daily prayer life, God would have given you what you needed to be at peace with Him, and with yourself for that matter. It's about a personal relationship with God, Kal-el. He speaks to us all in a way that is unique and meant for us alone.

I have been on the other side of the fence. I have went to church, bible studies, youth groups, etc. But 1 thing I should have done from the get go as my time as a Christian is read the bible. The bible is the biggest source for atheism. I have no doubt that you THINK God talks to you. See I personally believe faith is a deadly virus. I think it's one of the most deadly virus' out there. When you suBathmateit to faith, you close your eyes and abandon logic and reason, and resort to things like "God did it". If you said this and you were a scientist, you would be mocked and laughed at. Faith = belief without true understanding. Because of religious faith, we have had a monumentous amount of violence, from the Inquisition to the current conflict in Iraq. Everywhere, people who proclaim that their brand of superstition is the right one, are killing eachother in the name of their diety.

How do I know this? Yes the Bible clearly explains this, I'm kind of disappointed you even have to ask. Just so you know I'm not "making this up":

That's funny you wrote that verse, cause I stumbled upon these:

Jeremiah 20:7

O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.

Ezekiel 14:9

9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

How is this me presuming to speak for God?

Well since you said he is incomprehensible, how can you possibly know what it wants, likes, dislikes, or anything. Why would you suBathmateit to total adulation if you can't even understand your God?

As to how I can make such sweepingly positive assertions about such an entity. Pretty simple. My faith is strong as is my prayer life. If you can't understand and appreciate that then any further exchanges between us on this matter are moot to say the least.

Ok, I can understand that man. But in all actuality (I'm not trying to make fun of you here, just proving a point) I can say I have faith in the flying spaghetti monster.

No need for me to be careful here but thanks anyway. Yes I believe in satan,

Good for you. I'd say you're not a true Christian if you don't. Cause in the book of Matthew, Jesus has a long chat with Satan for some 10 verses. If you say he's not real, that's calling Jesus a liar. To add, that's like saying Batman and Aquaman are real, but Superman is fake.

met quite a few of his running buddies up close and personal too, not fun.

Huh? Can you please clarify this statement, thanks.

I believe in what is written about Jonas but if you want try and play me on that go right ahead. People love to point out how "crazy" the Bible is. Things are not always what they seem and things can hide in plain sight. Many "Christians" are adamant about the nonexistence of extraterrestrials but the Bible is pretty clear about "Sons of God/Nephlim". I've shut up many a Bible thumper with that one. Just one of many examples on that subject. Yes I believe God created Adam (not sure if that qualifies as "son"). Again if an ambush is in wait for me fire away by all means.

Not an ambush, it's just in Luke 3:38, he traces Jesus' genealogy back to Adam, the son of God.

I know the "apple" wasn't an apple, the unexplained appearance of others, that type of thing. As to satan, come on, like we really have to cover that one? Yes God is omnipresent. Just how exactly does satan being in hell detract from this? Yes I know satan gets to walk the yard from time to time so to speak btw.

Just the devil being in hell doesn't detract from God's omnipresence. But it does if your punisHydromaxent is a banisHydromaxent from God in hell. Because if he's omnipresent, he's everywhere. ¿Entiende?

Kal-el I don't think I'm any better than you. I'm not a fraudulent Christian. I've met plenty of those in my time and they do not serve God, they serve His competition.

In all actuality, a paradiasic God should not have any competition. Satan would have to be really stupid to go up against an omnipotent being, and the bible claims Satan's intelligent.

Whether you realize it or not I truly appreciate the fact that you have some actual knowledge of what you speak. This last year or so many of the threads and posters here have become mentally deficient and about as constructive as a bullet to the head. Your intelligence is to be applauded, just try not to be the loudest member of your audience.

Noted. I enjoy having these religious discussions, but they sometimes can get out of hand. I appreciate you responding and am looking forward to more debate. (Even though I'll be pretty busy the next few days, so I don't know when I'll have time to post)

Peace.

Later.