I spend the last couple days (free time that is) researching the Whabbi sect, cause I was fairly ignorant on the details. I know Saudis sponsored telethons to support suicide bombers who targeted Israeli school buses; and they financed and armed Islamic Jihad; and not to mention they started and spread the extreme Whabbi Islam that had bred a generation of fanatical haters of America, the West, and most non-muslims in general (including Shiites). I can't say this enough: Whabbism is Not terrorism. It is simply just a tactic used by some group to convey their message. It is impossible to fight a war against a tactic.
The Terrorism thread
I spend the last couple days (free time that is) researching the Whabbi sect, cause I was fairly ignorant on the details. I know Saudis sponsored telethons to support suicide bombers who targeted Israeli school buses; and they financed and armed Islamic Jihad; and not to mention they started and spread the extreme Whabbi Islam that had bred a generation of fanatical haters of America, the West, and most non-muslims in general (including Shiites). I can't say this enough: Whabbism is Not terrorism. It is simply just a tactic used by some group to convey their message. It is impossible to fight a war against a tactic.
Kal,
As I said before, it sucks to be you.
>and not to mention they started and spread the extreme Whabbi Islam that had bred a generation of fanatical haters of America, the West, and most non-muslims in general (including Shiites). I can't say this enough: Whabbism is Not terrorism. It is simply just a tactic used by some group to convey their message. It is impossible to fight a war against a tactic.<
What the hell does that mean? Wahhabism is an Islamic sect that preaches hate against all things western, and even non Wahhabist Islam. It was started before the US was even a country.
Wahhabism is what has fomented the Islamic form of terrorism. You have stated your opinions on why Islamic terrorism is occuring, but you do not understand Wahhabism, so you cannot understand where the terrorism comes from.
Bigger
As I said before, it sucks to be you.
>and not to mention they started and spread the extreme Whabbi Islam that had bred a generation of fanatical haters of America, the West, and most non-muslims in general (including Shiites). I can't say this enough: Whabbism is Not terrorism. It is simply just a tactic used by some group to convey their message. It is impossible to fight a war against a tactic.<
What the hell does that mean? Wahhabism is an Islamic sect that preaches hate against all things western, and even non Wahhabist Islam. It was started before the US was even a country.
Wahhabism is what has fomented the Islamic form of terrorism. You have stated your opinions on why Islamic terrorism is occuring, but you do not understand Wahhabism, so you cannot understand where the terrorism comes from.
Bigger
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At the end of the day this terrorism wont stop unless some of the big leaders get their head outta their own arses and realise it isnt just the terrorist who have been in the wrong but also actions they have done towards the nations where the scum arise from......we the west have alot to blame on 'some' gouvernments here on their policys to the middle east and Africa and why terrorism has spawned like it has, such evil hasnt occured over night and has been breweing for many years.
ATM I see it a very hard fight to win against terrorism because of the current position we the west have placed ourselves in, the extremeists can use MANY factors to convert people to hate us all now, because of actions the west has took.
However not all Muslims are bastards, just remember that....dont hate the koran and slander it, you'll just brew more hatred that way and the terrorists have more freinds.
Alot of this terrorism is Pychological in its tactics, and one which we all play apart in.
ATM I see it a very hard fight to win against terrorism because of the current position we the west have placed ourselves in, the extremeists can use MANY factors to convert people to hate us all now, because of actions the west has took.
However not all Muslims are bastards, just remember that....dont hate the koran and slander it, you'll just brew more hatred that way and the terrorists have more freinds.
Alot of this terrorism is Pychological in its tactics, and one which we all play apart in.
Bib, contrary to your beleif, Not all Muslims practice Whabbism. As you know, Whabbism was started in Saudi Arabia. Where it is there you probably fail to know that they have one of the most repressive regimes on earth. Women could be beaten for failing to cover their heads properly, and could be put to death for committing adultery, nothing except Islam is allowed, no independent newspapers or political parties among all things. It is Saudi Arabia that produced Osama Bin Laden , not to mention 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers. Anyway, Terrorism is Not limited to Whabbism. What about the IRA in Northern Ireland? Do you insinuate them in this Whabbi sect too? You can't desguise all terrorists into the cloak of "Whabbism."
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I agree, its true that not all muslims practice Whabbism and also not all arabs and muslim, africans are terrorists, nor is whabbism just a muslim thing.
I dunno if the Americans amongst us have forgotten but a US guy in the war who worked on the tanks in Iraw actually turned his back on his country and became a traiter giving the terrrorists in Iraq whom he was working with details on how to attack the tanks and kill his OWN US BROTHERS.
When I find the link again I will post the names and everythig else, the point is he is as white as you and I yet he turned to the enemy, the enemy that most ignorant people think is just a arab or muslim enemy....until that fuckin ignorant thought process is changed, than the sistuation wont ever change.
We aint just fightning against muslims here, but EXTREMEISTS....they aint proper muslims, they are a small minority of shitheads that hide behind the Muslim religion and hence get a reaction from fuckin dickheads across the globe whom condem the whole Muslim world, that than makes more hatred and the terrorists have some mo' brothers and sisters to use in the chess match that is so called 'war on terrorism'.
I dunno if the Americans amongst us have forgotten but a US guy in the war who worked on the tanks in Iraw actually turned his back on his country and became a traiter giving the terrrorists in Iraq whom he was working with details on how to attack the tanks and kill his OWN US BROTHERS.
When I find the link again I will post the names and everythig else, the point is he is as white as you and I yet he turned to the enemy, the enemy that most ignorant people think is just a arab or muslim enemy....until that fuckin ignorant thought process is changed, than the sistuation wont ever change.
We aint just fightning against muslims here, but EXTREMEISTS....they aint proper muslims, they are a small minority of shitheads that hide behind the Muslim religion and hence get a reaction from fuckin dickheads across the globe whom condem the whole Muslim world, that than makes more hatred and the terrorists have some mo' brothers and sisters to use in the chess match that is so called 'war on terrorism'.
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Kal,
Are you really this stupid, or just make shit up to try and make your points?
>Bib, contrary to your beleif, Not all Muslims practice Whabbism<
In fact, I have made the fucking point over and over that the Wahhabist are a small minority out of all Muslims, and that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. On point above I said, "Wahhabism is an Islamic sect that preaches hate against all things western, and even non Wahhabist Islam."
Which obviously means that Wahhabists feel it is OK to kill non-Wahhabists Muslims, as they do today.
>As you know, Whabbism was started in Saudi Arabia. Where it is there you probably fail to know that they have one of the most repressive regimes on earth. Women could be beaten for failing to cover their heads properly, and could be put to death for committing adultery, nothing except Islam is allowed, no independent newspapers or political parties among all things. It is Saudi Arabia that produced Osama Bin Laden , not to mention 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers.<
That is all correct. So what is your point?
>Anyway, Terrorism is Not limited to Whabbism. What about the IRA in Northern Ireland? Do you insinuate them in this Whabbi sect too? You can't desguise all terrorists into the cloak of "Whabbism."<
What fucking difference does it make? The terrorists causing global problems at this time are Islamic terrorists. The IRA does not want to destroy all of western civilization. WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT?
There is a small minority of Muslims who want to kill you, kill your family, totally destroy the west. For the first time in their history, they have the economic means, and the ability to actually do it. You should learn about them, and exactly how grave the threat truly is. Or die.
Red,
We could withdraw every single thing western from the middle east tomorrow. Every person, all embassies, everything. Then, the extremists would be able to generate the means to destroy the west just that much quicker. Their goal would still be to make the entire world Wahhabist, and destroy everything non-Wahhabist.
The vast majority of middle easterners wish to have relationships with the west. They want our products and friendship. Only the radical extremists want us out of the middle east. The sovereign governments of the countries of the middle east, for the most part, have invited us into those countries. Do you think a few radical extremists should dictate policy in these countries, and in the west?
Bigger
Are you really this stupid, or just make shit up to try and make your points?
>Bib, contrary to your beleif, Not all Muslims practice Whabbism<
In fact, I have made the fucking point over and over that the Wahhabist are a small minority out of all Muslims, and that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. On point above I said, "Wahhabism is an Islamic sect that preaches hate against all things western, and even non Wahhabist Islam."
Which obviously means that Wahhabists feel it is OK to kill non-Wahhabists Muslims, as they do today.
>As you know, Whabbism was started in Saudi Arabia. Where it is there you probably fail to know that they have one of the most repressive regimes on earth. Women could be beaten for failing to cover their heads properly, and could be put to death for committing adultery, nothing except Islam is allowed, no independent newspapers or political parties among all things. It is Saudi Arabia that produced Osama Bin Laden , not to mention 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers.<
That is all correct. So what is your point?
>Anyway, Terrorism is Not limited to Whabbism. What about the IRA in Northern Ireland? Do you insinuate them in this Whabbi sect too? You can't desguise all terrorists into the cloak of "Whabbism."<
What fucking difference does it make? The terrorists causing global problems at this time are Islamic terrorists. The IRA does not want to destroy all of western civilization. WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT?
There is a small minority of Muslims who want to kill you, kill your family, totally destroy the west. For the first time in their history, they have the economic means, and the ability to actually do it. You should learn about them, and exactly how grave the threat truly is. Or die.
Red,
We could withdraw every single thing western from the middle east tomorrow. Every person, all embassies, everything. Then, the extremists would be able to generate the means to destroy the west just that much quicker. Their goal would still be to make the entire world Wahhabist, and destroy everything non-Wahhabist.
The vast majority of middle easterners wish to have relationships with the west. They want our products and friendship. Only the radical extremists want us out of the middle east. The sovereign governments of the countries of the middle east, for the most part, have invited us into those countries. Do you think a few radical extremists should dictate policy in these countries, and in the west?
Bigger
My point is that SA is the real threat to us, not Iraq, nor Iran yet. It is Saudi Arabia where this dangerous Whabbi form of Islam developed, not to mention that SA produced Osama Bin Laden, and also 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.
[/QUOTE]Originally posted by Bib
What fucking difference does it make? The terrorists causing global problems at this time are Islamic terrorists. The IRA does not want to destroy all of western civilization. WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT?
Of course not, terrorism is all over the world. Take a look at the Irish Republican Army- they use terrorist tactics such as but not limited to bombings, assassinations, and robberies- all this to remove british forces from Northern Ireland. Also look at the ETA, a simple Basque separatist organization, they also use these same terroristic tactics as the former. These "Muslim" terorists are distorting the Koran's text in order to push their terrorous agenda. The insurgents or terrorists, also use these tactics, although as they shown in London and 9/11, are more planned out.
You even mentioned that you don't think a few radical extremeists should dictate policy in the mid east. I agree with that statement.
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I have my opinion and you have your own Bib.
Alot needs doing to fight terrorism and also prevent it and stop it from growing at grass roots.
We're only seeing now in the UK some of this starting to happen, yet it has a knock on disadvantage with all people in the UK because of our freedom, privacy and rights.
I dont mind, cos if it means a safer Britian than I'm for that but understabably most Mulsims are skeptical about it.
The western countries would do well to take note of Pakistan who have done more arrests and investigations on Al-Queda members tha any other country, yeah they have alot of shit going on in that nation but at least they dont ignore it....they are a MAJOR key in this fight and if some of the western leaders go around pig headed and act like a bull in a china shop than we will loose valuable freinds in the arab world.
On a seperate matter but also related is this whole buisness in Iran about the Nuclear sources is fuck all to do with us, it seems the West wants to rule and dictate the world, and its little wonder that the middle east and north africa on the whole arent that keen on us and dont trust us.
Iran have even been threatened with sanctions if they dont pull the plug on the nuclear program, I mean how pathetic is that? they even allowed cameras in their facility and UN inspectors in...jeez.
Its alright for the USA and UK ect to have all the nuclear power but when a arab nations wants some well red flags start.
I mention all this because it does influence the terrorists, and the way they go about getting new members.
The west acting like they are with Iran wont go down well with the other Arab nations, who the fuck are we to tell then what to do? the USA was once talking about a star wars system in space, cummon now....lets get real.
Alot needs doing to fight terrorism and also prevent it and stop it from growing at grass roots.
We're only seeing now in the UK some of this starting to happen, yet it has a knock on disadvantage with all people in the UK because of our freedom, privacy and rights.
I dont mind, cos if it means a safer Britian than I'm for that but understabably most Mulsims are skeptical about it.
The western countries would do well to take note of Pakistan who have done more arrests and investigations on Al-Queda members tha any other country, yeah they have alot of shit going on in that nation but at least they dont ignore it....they are a MAJOR key in this fight and if some of the western leaders go around pig headed and act like a bull in a china shop than we will loose valuable freinds in the arab world.
On a seperate matter but also related is this whole buisness in Iran about the Nuclear sources is fuck all to do with us, it seems the West wants to rule and dictate the world, and its little wonder that the middle east and north africa on the whole arent that keen on us and dont trust us.
Iran have even been threatened with sanctions if they dont pull the plug on the nuclear program, I mean how pathetic is that? they even allowed cameras in their facility and UN inspectors in...jeez.
Its alright for the USA and UK ect to have all the nuclear power but when a arab nations wants some well red flags start.
I mention all this because it does influence the terrorists, and the way they go about getting new members.
The west acting like they are with Iran wont go down well with the other Arab nations, who the fuck are we to tell then what to do? the USA was once talking about a star wars system in space, cummon now....lets get real.
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For all the people think that we should invade Afganistan or Iraq... think of the attacks on the twin towers, 1993 & 2001. Did GB do ANYTHING to provoke those attacks... or he just inherith from the earlier administration, which cowardly retread from Somolia and sign the peace treaty with those that keill our soldiers...
It doesn't seem like he did anything to PREVENT them either. Wasn't he on vacation for the entire month of August? Who goes on vaction for a month? And don't forget, they DID happen under his watch. Had that happened to Clinton or Gore, the GOP would have crucified either of them.
Kal,
>My point is that SA is the real threat to us, not Iraq, nor Iran yet. It is Saudi Arabia where this dangerous Whabbi form of Islam developed, not to mention that SA produced Osama Bin Laden, and also 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.<
First, you actually believe Iran is not a threat?
Once again, you do not get it. SA is a country which is currently helping to track down Al Queda, and has arrested many members so far. They are cooperating on the global war on terror. As is Pakistan and several other middle eastern countries, and other Muslim countries in the far east. However, Iraq and Afghanistan were certaintly NOT cooperating. Further, it appears Syria and Iran are not only not cooperating, but assisting the terrorists.
What possible difference could it make the country of origin of the terrorists? What matters is whether the sovereign governments of these countries wish to cooperate to eradicate the radical extremists. So far, SA is doing that.
One point I have not made before: As I have said, most Muslims are great people. In fact, many Wahhabists are great people, and only wish to live in peace. At one point, I read an estimate that only about 50,000 Wahhabists believed in the total destruction of the west. So out of a religion of two billion people, a few million are Wahhabists, and only about 50,000 want to kill us. Of course, with WMDs, and mass suicide bombings, perhaps a nuke from Iran, 50K extremists could kill most if not all in the west.
>Islamic terrorists are causing problems, but it is not just Islamic terrorists. There is all kind of terrorism currently taking place around the globe. Terrorism is Not limited to Islamic people.<
OK, fine. So what is your fucking point? Leave the Islamic terrorists alone, because there are other terrorist groups? Everybody is doing it, so it is ok? What?
Bigger
>My point is that SA is the real threat to us, not Iraq, nor Iran yet. It is Saudi Arabia where this dangerous Whabbi form of Islam developed, not to mention that SA produced Osama Bin Laden, and also 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.<
First, you actually believe Iran is not a threat?
Once again, you do not get it. SA is a country which is currently helping to track down Al Queda, and has arrested many members so far. They are cooperating on the global war on terror. As is Pakistan and several other middle eastern countries, and other Muslim countries in the far east. However, Iraq and Afghanistan were certaintly NOT cooperating. Further, it appears Syria and Iran are not only not cooperating, but assisting the terrorists.
What possible difference could it make the country of origin of the terrorists? What matters is whether the sovereign governments of these countries wish to cooperate to eradicate the radical extremists. So far, SA is doing that.
One point I have not made before: As I have said, most Muslims are great people. In fact, many Wahhabists are great people, and only wish to live in peace. At one point, I read an estimate that only about 50,000 Wahhabists believed in the total destruction of the west. So out of a religion of two billion people, a few million are Wahhabists, and only about 50,000 want to kill us. Of course, with WMDs, and mass suicide bombings, perhaps a nuke from Iran, 50K extremists could kill most if not all in the west.
>Islamic terrorists are causing problems, but it is not just Islamic terrorists. There is all kind of terrorism currently taking place around the globe. Terrorism is Not limited to Islamic people.<
OK, fine. So what is your fucking point? Leave the Islamic terrorists alone, because there are other terrorist groups? Everybody is doing it, so it is ok? What?
Bigger
Red,
>Alot needs doing to fight terrorism and also prevent it and stop it from growing at grass roots.<
No, the roots are already there, and have been for over two hundred years. This is not a new thing. It is very well developed, and has little to do with the west being in any middle eastern countries. That is not the problem for the radicals. The problem is that we are breathing, and are not Wahhabi Muslims. If you do not believe that, please do the research. It really is that simple.
What has changed is middle eastern wealth. The radicals now have the money; mainly trickled down, or direct, from oil wealth, to buy the weapons to achieve their goals, destroying the west. This has occured over the last twenty years or so. It is one of the big reasons Saddam and Iraq was such a problem. Radicals are not such a bother if they don't have weapons. Saddam could have and did give them that capability.
To be sure, the radical Muslims would like us out of the middle east. They would like us out of the entire world. So it really does not matter if we are there or not. They are not going to stop killing just because we leave. In fact, it would make it much easier to destroy us if we let go of the lion's head.
>The western countries would do well to take note of Pakistan who have done more arrests and investigations on Al-Queda members tha any other country, yeah they have alot of shit going on in that nation but at least they dont ignore it....they are a MAJOR key in this fight and if some of the western leaders go around pig headed and act like a bull in a china shop than we will loose valuable freinds in the arab world.<
You are correct. The biggest key to fighting the radicals is the cooperation of the moderates. That is another reason Iraq and Afghanistan are so important.
>On a seperate matter but also related is this whole buisness in Iran about the Nuclear sources is fuck all to do with us, it seems the West wants to rule and dictate the world, and its little wonder that the middle east and north africa on the whole arent that keen on us and dont trust us.
Iran have even been threatened with sanctions if they dont pull the plug on the nuclear program, I mean how pathetic is that? they even allowed cameras in their facility and UN inspectors in...jeez.
Its alright for the USA and UK ect to have all the nuclear power but when a arab nations wants some well red flags start.<
You really think that if Iran got their nuclear program in gear, that a nuke would not end up in Europe or the US? Iran CANNOT get a nuke. If they do, sooner or later we will have WWIII. The end.
>I mention all this because it does influence the terrorists, and the way they go about getting new members.<
No, it does not matter a whit to the terrorists. You do not seem to understand. They already want to destroy us. That we will deny Iran the ability to do it will not make them any more antsy to destroy us. I would wager the vast majority in the middle east do not want Iran to have a nuke either.
BTW, Iran has plenty of power without nuclear power. Their insistance that the nuclear facilities are for power is a crock.
>The west acting like they are with Iran wont go down well with the other Arab nations, who the fuck are we to tell then what to do? the USA was once talking about a star wars system in space, cummon now....lets get real.<
We are the countries looking out for our own self preservation. That is who the fuck we are. If a guy says he is going to kill you, and you know he has the means to do it, are you not going to take steps to stop him?
Bigger
>Alot needs doing to fight terrorism and also prevent it and stop it from growing at grass roots.<
No, the roots are already there, and have been for over two hundred years. This is not a new thing. It is very well developed, and has little to do with the west being in any middle eastern countries. That is not the problem for the radicals. The problem is that we are breathing, and are not Wahhabi Muslims. If you do not believe that, please do the research. It really is that simple.
What has changed is middle eastern wealth. The radicals now have the money; mainly trickled down, or direct, from oil wealth, to buy the weapons to achieve their goals, destroying the west. This has occured over the last twenty years or so. It is one of the big reasons Saddam and Iraq was such a problem. Radicals are not such a bother if they don't have weapons. Saddam could have and did give them that capability.
To be sure, the radical Muslims would like us out of the middle east. They would like us out of the entire world. So it really does not matter if we are there or not. They are not going to stop killing just because we leave. In fact, it would make it much easier to destroy us if we let go of the lion's head.
>The western countries would do well to take note of Pakistan who have done more arrests and investigations on Al-Queda members tha any other country, yeah they have alot of shit going on in that nation but at least they dont ignore it....they are a MAJOR key in this fight and if some of the western leaders go around pig headed and act like a bull in a china shop than we will loose valuable freinds in the arab world.<
You are correct. The biggest key to fighting the radicals is the cooperation of the moderates. That is another reason Iraq and Afghanistan are so important.
>On a seperate matter but also related is this whole buisness in Iran about the Nuclear sources is fuck all to do with us, it seems the West wants to rule and dictate the world, and its little wonder that the middle east and north africa on the whole arent that keen on us and dont trust us.
Iran have even been threatened with sanctions if they dont pull the plug on the nuclear program, I mean how pathetic is that? they even allowed cameras in their facility and UN inspectors in...jeez.
Its alright for the USA and UK ect to have all the nuclear power but when a arab nations wants some well red flags start.<
You really think that if Iran got their nuclear program in gear, that a nuke would not end up in Europe or the US? Iran CANNOT get a nuke. If they do, sooner or later we will have WWIII. The end.
>I mention all this because it does influence the terrorists, and the way they go about getting new members.<
No, it does not matter a whit to the terrorists. You do not seem to understand. They already want to destroy us. That we will deny Iran the ability to do it will not make them any more antsy to destroy us. I would wager the vast majority in the middle east do not want Iran to have a nuke either.
BTW, Iran has plenty of power without nuclear power. Their insistance that the nuclear facilities are for power is a crock.
>The west acting like they are with Iran wont go down well with the other Arab nations, who the fuck are we to tell then what to do? the USA was once talking about a star wars system in space, cummon now....lets get real.<
We are the countries looking out for our own self preservation. That is who the fuck we are. If a guy says he is going to kill you, and you know he has the means to do it, are you not going to take steps to stop him?
Bigger
kooky,
>It doesn't seem like he did anything to PREVENT them either. Wasn't he on vacation for the entire month of August? Who goes on vaction for a month? And don't forget, they DID happen under his watch. Had that happened to Clinton or Gore, the GOP would have crucified either of them.<
What should he have done? Passed the Patriot Act before 9/11. Maybe invade SA? You forget, he was in office only eight months when this occured. Plus, he was held up by the Florida recounts getting into office, and the Senate Democrats were holding up some of his key appointments.
Further, you know that no President is ever on vacation. He may be in a different place, but he still has the work to do.
Bigger
>It doesn't seem like he did anything to PREVENT them either. Wasn't he on vacation for the entire month of August? Who goes on vaction for a month? And don't forget, they DID happen under his watch. Had that happened to Clinton or Gore, the GOP would have crucified either of them.<
What should he have done? Passed the Patriot Act before 9/11. Maybe invade SA? You forget, he was in office only eight months when this occured. Plus, he was held up by the Florida recounts getting into office, and the Senate Democrats were holding up some of his key appointments.
Further, you know that no President is ever on vacation. He may be in a different place, but he still has the work to do.
Bigger
Bib
No, WHat I think he COULD have done was to take some of Clinton's team's advice before he even officially got the office. There seems to be more and more info coming out that there were redflags all over the guys who were here and making the plans. Call me crazy, but it just seems to me that something on that large of a scale could have been preventable. Don't ask me how, because I honestly don't know.
I'll tell you what Bib, I'll give you that I honestly am not sure WHAT could have been done and I will also give you that he isn't ever REALLY on vacation, if you will give me my point about Clinton or Gore. Had that happened under either of them, the GOP would have crucified both of them within weeks and made it look like they were asleep at the wheel.
And why not invade SA? Are they going to have a complete democracy soon? Didn't SA support Hammas, a known terrorsit organization?
Anyway, regardless of how you answer or comment to anything further, I see no real point in discussing it further. You have shown to defend Bush as an absolute and apparently you agree with him when he was asked during the last campaign about any mistakes he has made when he said he couldn't think of any.
Maybe you think it's ok that American's are dying everyday in defense of another country.
Maybe you think it's ok that military folks are being HELD AGAINST THEIR WILL, even though their commitment times are up.
Maybe you think it's ok that they tried to cut military seperation pay and medical benifeits for inactive duty solders' families who were being sent to Iraq.
Maybe you think it's ok that that we got Hussen but Bin Laden is still free.
Maybe you think it's ok that he dishonored/disrespected fighter pilots every where by NOT showing up for his flight physical, thereby going DNF(Duties not Flying), when he was SUPPOSED to be training as a fighter pilot.
Maybe you think it's ok that gays do not have equal rights in this country.
Maybe you think it's ok to amend the Constitution to TAKE AWAY rights instead of protect them.
Maybe you think it's ok that while we are getting closer to $3.00 a gallon for gas, all the oil companies are setting record profit margins.
Maybe you think it's ok that we are limiting stem-cell research.
Maybe you think it's ok that he cut the funding to find the un-accounted for attache nuclear bombs that these terrorist are working hard to get--and it would be VERY easy to get into this country because;
Maybe you think it's ok that our borders ARE NOT as sealed as they should be and only 5-15% of cargo is actually inspected thus allowing someone to sneak in one of the items from above.
Maybe you think it's ok that "No Child Left Behind" is leaving A LOT of children behind.
Maybe you think it's ok to drag TWO decorated Vietnam Vets through the mud on your way to the White House.
And finally, Maybe you think it's ok to have the only president EVER convicted of a crime.
kook
No, WHat I think he COULD have done was to take some of Clinton's team's advice before he even officially got the office. There seems to be more and more info coming out that there were redflags all over the guys who were here and making the plans. Call me crazy, but it just seems to me that something on that large of a scale could have been preventable. Don't ask me how, because I honestly don't know.
I'll tell you what Bib, I'll give you that I honestly am not sure WHAT could have been done and I will also give you that he isn't ever REALLY on vacation, if you will give me my point about Clinton or Gore. Had that happened under either of them, the GOP would have crucified both of them within weeks and made it look like they were asleep at the wheel.
And why not invade SA? Are they going to have a complete democracy soon? Didn't SA support Hammas, a known terrorsit organization?
Anyway, regardless of how you answer or comment to anything further, I see no real point in discussing it further. You have shown to defend Bush as an absolute and apparently you agree with him when he was asked during the last campaign about any mistakes he has made when he said he couldn't think of any.
Maybe you think it's ok that American's are dying everyday in defense of another country.
Maybe you think it's ok that military folks are being HELD AGAINST THEIR WILL, even though their commitment times are up.
Maybe you think it's ok that they tried to cut military seperation pay and medical benifeits for inactive duty solders' families who were being sent to Iraq.
Maybe you think it's ok that that we got Hussen but Bin Laden is still free.
Maybe you think it's ok that he dishonored/disrespected fighter pilots every where by NOT showing up for his flight physical, thereby going DNF(Duties not Flying), when he was SUPPOSED to be training as a fighter pilot.
Maybe you think it's ok that gays do not have equal rights in this country.
Maybe you think it's ok to amend the Constitution to TAKE AWAY rights instead of protect them.
Maybe you think it's ok that while we are getting closer to $3.00 a gallon for gas, all the oil companies are setting record profit margins.
Maybe you think it's ok that we are limiting stem-cell research.
Maybe you think it's ok that he cut the funding to find the un-accounted for attache nuclear bombs that these terrorist are working hard to get--and it would be VERY easy to get into this country because;
Maybe you think it's ok that our borders ARE NOT as sealed as they should be and only 5-15% of cargo is actually inspected thus allowing someone to sneak in one of the items from above.
Maybe you think it's ok that "No Child Left Behind" is leaving A LOT of children behind.
Maybe you think it's ok to drag TWO decorated Vietnam Vets through the mud on your way to the White House.
And finally, Maybe you think it's ok to have the only president EVER convicted of a crime.
kook
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iwant8inches said:
Many will respond with violence unless they are hit with such force that they are completely broken. Or unless they piss off enough of their countrymen that they lose support from those caught up in the whole struggle, which is happening to some degree when 29 kids are blown up by a suicide bomber to kill one US soldier. Most of those that are committing this violence are hellbent on committing this violence regardless of what we ultimately do. Killing a given number of them does not mean there will not be more of them tomorrow, but it does mean that those particular individuals will not kill you or I.
Do you have sympathy for such terrorists?
Well, any of our opinions is going to ultimately have no impact, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't voice them. And certainly anyone that is highly critical of any given situation or policy should have some idea of what might be an alternative. You're perhaps onto something with the covert suggestion, but not the diplomatic? What section of our treaty with bin Laden did we violate? Oh, we didn't have a treaty. How many hours did bin Laden spend negotiating with our government? Don't believe he really did. You CANNOT negotiate with terrorists. For starters, their tactics are absolutely unacceptable. Second, their demands tend to be clearly out of the mainstream and defy legal authority. For example Mohammed Atta was angry about the westernization of Muslim land. Well, then the proper thing to do would have been to campaign to get rid of the McDonald's in Cairo and other elements of western civilization. I think we're all aware of the alternative tactic he chose. Some are upset about the "raping and pilaging" of muslim lands. I suppose they mean the fact we buy oil from them. First, we give a market price for all oil we buy, unlike the French and Russians that were buying it for a fraction of the cost in violation of the UN Oil For Food program in the case of Iraq. Second, this is perfectly legal and recognized as accepted. If they're pissed off about it, then they should campaign for their government to close the pipeline and not do business with us, not commit terrorism. Any negotiation with such people would be a disaster.
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I agree with what has been said about the tacticts terrorists use: a peaceful solution, even if it might be more effective at accomplishing whatever goals they have in mind, will never be considered. The price for martyrdom in the minds of these people is simply too sweet. Throw yourself at the perceived enemy in a suicidal rage, get lucky and take down as many of them as you can, and get a free ticket to paradise. What could be better?
As long as the west has any influence in the Middle East, whether it's in the form of a McDonald's in Cairo like Penguinsfan said, or US troops stationed in Iraq (hell, make that as long as the west has any influence over the lives of muslims anywhere in the world), more terrorist elements will be crawling out the woodwork. I think the so called "fight" on terrorism is an unwinnable war, that will actually prolong the whole process of rooting out Islam based terrorism all over the globe. The whole ideology might eventually collapse under its own lack of true purpose and unrealistic goals, but I think it won't happen anywhere in the near future. It will take many more suicide bombings or attacks of other sort before these people have extinguished their bloodlust and lost the frail binds that just barely hold their mindless ideology intact.
The root of all evil here, once again, as it has been numerous times throughout human history, is religion. The extremes of most any religion (maybe discounting Hinduism, which seems to be lacking in any extreme elements), whether it be Christianity, Islam, or whetever, has been the source of too much bloodshed over the centuries. It blows my mind how seemingly rational and thinking people can be so easily blindfolded and led astray by man made rhethoric, up to the point where their religion overriders their self preservation instincts. It makes me sick at times. Burn down all the mosks, churches and temples, I say! We need a global mind reprogramming of some sort to root out organized religion.
As long as the west has any influence in the Middle East, whether it's in the form of a McDonald's in Cairo like Penguinsfan said, or US troops stationed in Iraq (hell, make that as long as the west has any influence over the lives of muslims anywhere in the world), more terrorist elements will be crawling out the woodwork. I think the so called "fight" on terrorism is an unwinnable war, that will actually prolong the whole process of rooting out Islam based terrorism all over the globe. The whole ideology might eventually collapse under its own lack of true purpose and unrealistic goals, but I think it won't happen anywhere in the near future. It will take many more suicide bombings or attacks of other sort before these people have extinguished their bloodlust and lost the frail binds that just barely hold their mindless ideology intact.
The root of all evil here, once again, as it has been numerous times throughout human history, is religion. The extremes of most any religion (maybe discounting Hinduism, which seems to be lacking in any extreme elements), whether it be Christianity, Islam, or whetever, has been the source of too much bloodshed over the centuries. It blows my mind how seemingly rational and thinking people can be so easily blindfolded and led astray by man made rhethoric, up to the point where their religion overriders their self preservation instincts. It makes me sick at times. Burn down all the mosks, churches and temples, I say! We need a global mind reprogramming of some sort to root out organized religion.
Yes, of course, especially since they have this new president, but like I said when we invaded Iraq, there were at least a handful of greater threats to us then.
Not at all, but lets not forget other terrorist groups. Al-Qaueda seems like the most organized and largest, but we can't forget others. This crisis in Chenya is breeding alot of terrorists.
Bib, it was the Saudis who denied requests to turn over to the US any Saudi links to terrorism, and also they refused to leat any US planes who were targeting the Taliban, take off from Saudi soil.
Bush-Saudi ties go back decades- as does the US willingness to turn a "blind eye" to evil, just for the sake of oil. The first Bush White House was dominated by executives who made millions on arms deals with the Saudi rulers. And at that time, the CIA was helping to arm and train Osama Bin Laden's mostly Saudi mujahiddin to fight the Soviets in Afganistan. (Meanwhile Saddam Hussein - an ally when he was all that stood between Iran and the Saudi oil feilds-had just become an enemy for threating these oil feilds himself.)
Through the 90s, even after the 1993 attack on the world trade center and the 1996 attack on the Khobar Towers, the FBI, when offered evidence of Saudi-Al- Quaeda links, was told to "see no evil". The Administration wanted to keep the pro-American Saudi royal family in control of the world's biggest oil spigot, even at the price of ignoring any terrorist connection.
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Its a endless discussion, but IMHO we [the west] and the extremeists are both to blame for what happens.
No fire without smoke and alot of this that we see now started many many years ago and could have been prevented if certain gouvernments did something at the time.
No fire without smoke and alot of this that we see now started many many years ago and could have been prevented if certain gouvernments did something at the time.
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I couldn't have said this any better myself, thank you Shafty. Organized religion is nothing more than sancioned brainwashing. A belief in a "supernatural" God who created it all in one week is the tell tail sign of a primitive mind. How many wars are waged in the name of "God?"
Man needs spirituality, not a mythological "Santa Clause", or "God."
Buddhism is an athiest religion, and is basically about personal development and feeling connected to everything. You don't see Buddhists out starting "wars."
I think most people need to "wake-up" and let go of their medievil beliefs. Science and technology are our future. Look at the discoveries in biology, genetics, ecology, astronomy, and neurology. It is these same "medevil beliefs" that come from a past when it is taught that the Earth was flat and supported by giants at the center of the universe, that intelligence was located in the stomach, and that we had to fear a "devil" and adore a white-bearded "God" sitting in a cloud. As long as people were kept ignorant by forbidding them science, and forcing an unquestioned belief in the Bible and pedophile priests, then people could be duped by these fairy stories. People could be made to accept it as their religion, which pretended to explain what it could'nt explain, usually through "Divine mysteries." Then, there was no need for explanation. But now that everything can be made understandable through science, and now that the lies and crimes of the old religions become clear, we can no longer be fooled by these stupid fairy tales.
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