Starting back (and a pic)...advice?

Creatine is a good supplement, however glutamine is highly debatable. I wouldn't waste my money on glutamine. As soon as finals are over I will be back at the gym.

Ha, I didn't even know what the red eye was when I first saw it. I thought that was called the brown eye?

Yeah I dunno a buddy of mine used to call it the red eye.

BTW, I'm pretty sure I'm done with creatine because it gives me ridiculous gas. Like seriously if I go a full minute without farting it's an accomplishment, and they smell awful. As soon as I stopped taking it I quit farting. Maybe it's because it's a cheap kind but I'm not willing to spend the $$ for quality stuff right now.

^^ Cheap too, or the same price as monohydrate I believe. Search for it at 1fast400.com and I think it is something like 6.99 for 100 grams.

your routine looks pretty solid for bulking. depending on your recovery time maybe consider doing benches and dips twice a week. You didn't mention adductors, or forearms, or flys, or leg extensions. Depends on how much time you have

Actually after a few weeks of that routine I decided I didn't like it. I think working each bodypart only once per week was no good. I'm now doing a program very similar to Chad Waterbury's "Big Boy Basics" found at T-Nation. My version is like this:

Day 1

8 sets of 3

Bench Press
Seated Rows
Pull-ups
Military Press

Day 2

3 sets of 8

Squats
Romanian Deadlift
Serratus Crunches
Decline Bench Situps
Calf Raises

Day 4

3 sets of 8

Incline Bench Press
Bent Over Rows
Dips
Upright Rows

Day 5

8 sets of 3

Squats
Leg Curls
Seated Calf Raises
Side Bends
Weighted Swiss Ball Crunches


It's short, sweet and basic, so I can hit everything hard and heavy. The Squats and Deads day is total hell, but it's good. I recently went home for a couple weeks and all my friends could tell I had been working out, so I took that as a good sign. The only problem was I gained some extra fat while I was home too. :D

I've been reading a lot at T-Nation lately. They have the type of training info I've been looking for: heavy strength training with compound movements and no isolation and pumping stuff. I just never could get into the type of training so many bodybuilders do (ie. on "chest day" do bench, barbell bench, flyes, incline bench, pullovers, pec deck, etc.) and I'm finding this a lot more fun (and hard!) and more productive.

Yer gonna be a beast! Good to find a routine that's fun and effective. Refine as you go to keep it that way

AncientChina said:

Drop the monohydrate 9cyclops. It has a really weak absorption rate, and is the cause of "creatine bloat" and other anonyances....just not worth it. Try some CEE: Creatine Ester Ethyl. You only need about 3 grams a day of CEE, no loading phase and you can even cap it so you don't have taste it's well, quite shitty taste.

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Creatine is one of the best supplements on the market. It's one of the only sports nutrition supplements worth buying. Creatine bloat isnt that bad for the results you get. As for any other creatine product other than normal creatine don't buy into it.

thefranchise said:

Creatine is one of the best supplements on the market. It's one of the only sports nutrition supplements worth buying. Creatine bloat isnt that bad for the results you get. As for any other creatine product other than normal creatine don't buy into it.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you. The bloat is pretty dang bad, to the point that right now I'm not using any creatine because I don't like farting in class with two gorgeous girls sitting on either side of me. It smells awful. I also don't like walking down the street and farting every 10 steps or so. I don't care what kind of benefit it gives, it isn't worth it.

Besides, there is plenty of research out there that shows that CEE is much more effective than creatine monohydrate. It absorbs better and doesn't cause bloating. Et cetera. It's just a better product, from what I've been able to find.

Ok, update time. I'm now 195 lbs, up from 179, and my BF is at 12% according to my calipers. My PR lifts are (all done for 8 sets of 3):

Squat: 300
Deadlift: 315
Bench: 195 (sucks, I know)
Military Press: 135
Power Clean: 155

I'm coming up on the end of a routine I designed. It looks like this:

Day 1

8x3 Military Press
5x5 Pull-up
3x8 Incline Bench
5x5 BB curl
2x8 Weighted Decline Bench Sit-ups

Day 2

8x3 Deadlift
3x8 Squat
3x10 Seated Calf Raise
2x8 Swiss Ball Crunch/Russian Twist Superset

Day 3

cardio/GPP

Day 4

8x3 Bench Press
8x3 Power Clean
3x8 Bent Row
3x8 Weighted Dips
5x5 Pull-up
abs same as Day 1

Day 5

8x3 Squat
3x8 Reverse Hyper
3x10 Standing Calf Raise
abs same as Day 2

Day 6

cardio/GPP

Day 7

off



After next week I'll be starting a different routine. I'm considering Chad Waterbury's "Anti-Bodybuilding Hypertrophy" or "Waterbury Method." I'll also take a look at millionman's new program and see how I like it. Or I might decide on something totally different, who knows.

Like my face? :D

I did Brazilian jiujitsu for a while and I've done power lifting. Your routines are decent, but it seems your switching them up a bit too much. Changing the routines are good after a couple weeks though. For example, on day one you bench press and do upper body movements. The next day you do lower body like dead lifts and squats. The third day you go back to upper body but instead of a regular bench you do a wide or close grip. Also stick with a certain rep range too. For benching, try not to do more than 4-6 reps. Hitting more isn't the best for strength. Bah my 2 cents for now. :s

I'm really getting into CNS lifting. You alter your movement patterns every workout so your CNS does not crash and you can workout more frequently. This is quite a drastic thought change but a necessary one. If you constantly grind in a certain lift attempting to lift heavier and heavier your CNS will adapt and your tissues will become more prone to injury. You alter the stimulus to your nervous system by altering movement patterns, rep ranges, speed of movement, load parameters, and you can continue to improve overall while also improving strenght in the primary lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses). That's part of what I am working on at the moment, at least part of the theory behind, and I in no way can claim responsibility for it, but I have been reading alot of research from an evil Russian by name of Yuri Verkoshansky and Dr. Mel Siff. Their information compiled over 20 years ago is absoultely incredible.

Juggers said:

I did Brazilian jiujitsu for a while and I've done power lifting. Your routines are decent, but it seems your switching them up a bit too much. Changing the routines are good after a couple weeks though.

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I've been changing the routine every month or so. I guess I don't quite follow you.

For example, on day one you bench press and do upper body movements. The next day you do lower body like dead lifts and squats. The third day you go back to upper body but instead of a regular bench you do a wide or close grip. Also stick with a certain rep range too. For benching, try not to do more than 4-6 reps. Hitting more isn't the best for strength. Bah my 2 cents for now. :s

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I'm not purely going for strength, but also size. I've found I can't keep reps low and sets high on every lift (which isn't recommended in any decent training program as far as I know), so I switch things up. I can't do near-maximal benching twice in a week, for example. Last time I tried that I ended up having to get two guys to pull the weight off my chest. Read some of Chad Waterbury's articles on T-Nation, this is the type of approach I'm taking.

http://www.t-nation.com/ALSAuthor.d...B8A6E125DDD0D.hydra?p=Chad Waterbury&pageNo=1

I'm also thinking about Joe DeFranco's "Westside for Skinny Bastards" with an added repetition lower body day (or maybe just the original as written). This would also go along the lines of what you're talking about, mil. We'll see.

millionman said:

I'm really getting into CNS lifting. You alter your movement patterns every workout so your CNS does not crash and you can workout more frequently. This is quite a drastic thought change but a necessary one. If you constantly grind in a certain lift attempting to lift heavier and heavier your CNS will adapt and your tissues will become more prone to injury. You alter the stimulus to your nervous system by altering movement patterns, rep ranges, speed of movement, load parameters, and you can continue to improve overall while also improving strenght in the primary lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses). That's part of what I am working on at the moment, at least part of the theory behind, and I in no way can claim responsibility for it, but I have been reading alot of research from an evil Russian by name of Yuri Verkoshansky and Dr. Mel Siff. Their information compiled over 20 years ago is absoultely incredible.

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you are very correct for saying this...this is kinda what I was getting at but didn't know how to say it. The CNS is a big part of lifting. BTW westside barbell is a great place to get routines so check them out too.

Juggers said:

you are very correct for saying this...this is kinda what I was getting at but didn't know how to say it. The CNS is a big part of lifting. BTW westside barbell is a great place to get routines so check them out too.

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I gotcha. I'm seriously leaning toward WS4SB right now after having done some more reading on it.

That routine is terrible IMO,it seems everyone wants to try and complicate training over the last few years,the basics worked in the past and they still do.

Ive used the same basic lifting routine for the last 10 years and am still making gains.

As long as you are lifting more or doing more reps in the big compound movements then you are making progress.

prince Albert said:

That routine is terrible IMO,it seems everyone wants to try and complicate training over the last few years,the basics worked in the past and they still do.

Ive used the same basic lifting routine for the last 10 years and am still making gains.

As long as you are lifting more or doing more reps in the big compound movements then you are making progress.

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That doesn't help much. How would you change it? I don't see how my routine isn't "basic." It uses the basic compound lifts and standard rep schemes, and nothing more.

weight training is constantly evolving and getting better...just like fighting and mixed martial arts. How people trained years ago is different then now in a sense. Quality over quantity really...more reps does not necessarily mean better...there is a lot more to training than meets the eye...it is very scientific and there is a right and a wrong way to do things.

9cyclops9 there is nothing wrong with your choice of exercises but for me your doing way to much volume especially for a natural also the order in which you are doing them is all over the place.

Juggers

No its not getting better,there is very little difference in how people trained years ago,yes there are new idea being put about as the new way to train but this has always happened and always will,ive lost count of the amount of training gurus that have come and gone

5x5 has become popular again and last year on the BB board i post on all the newbies latched onto 5x5 and were singing its praises every training thread i read the reply was try 5x5,thingis 5x5 was first being used back in the 60s then fell out of favour in the 80s.

Disagree about it being scientific and there is a right and a wrong way to do things.

schwarzenegger thrived on high volume,Yates was the complete opposite low volume high intensity,Coleman is inbetween,all of which would be unsuitable for the majority of trainers.

They all won Mr O but trained totaly different to each other,one thing they all did is to strive to keep getting stronger in the big basic compound movements.


9cyclops9

This is what i would suggest,drop the bench press its a overated exercise,unless you compete in powerlifting then i dont see the point,its more of a ego movement among gym goers.

Something like this.eg mon,wed,fri

mon.

Weighted chins 3sets x6
deadlift 3x3 you should find our deadlift pondages go up quite quickly
Bentover row,one arm row ect. 3sets x10 chose a rowing movement that you can feel
Barbell curl,d/b curl ect 3sets x8-10 again choose a curling movement that you can feel working.

Wed.
Low incline d/b press 3 sets 6-8 reps
Weighted Dips 3set 6-8 reps
military press 3sets 8-10 reps
Close grip bench press or skullcrushers 3x10

Fri.

Squats 3sets x10
SLDL 3sets x8 if your lower back is to waisted to do sldl then leg curl keeping reps higher 10-12.
Standing calf raise 3sets x10
Abs, basic crunch reverse crunch.

Basic and not very exciting to look at but its the sort of routine that works for the average man on the street.

Cardio could be done 2-3 times a week on none training days.

Heres a progress pic of me,cut down from 210lb at 5'8

PA, mad props on the progress. I bet that took a while. How many years did it take to get over 200 lbs?

The only problem with using Arnold, Yates, and Coleman is they are #1 Genetically gifted, #2 they utilized steroids and Growth Hormone (Coleman especially). The combination of superior genetics and steroids allows these men to train with higher volumes than the regular natural trainee. Arnold is known for his arm workouts with Franco where they would do as many as 50 sets of barbell curls simply handing the bar back and forth. Coleman uses heavy compund movements but he is also capable of deadlifting 800 X 3, and his volume varies significantly depending on the phase he's in. Yates is one of my all time favorites, but he too used higher volumes than a natural trainee should. If you have noticed there are a lot of "professional" bodybuilders who don't workout properly, merely throwing weights around and they can grow because of their genetics and their insane drug use.

For proper facilitation of hypertrophy you would usually use a total number of reps between 36-50 reps. If you were attempting to hypertrophy the tissue while also increasing maximal strength the total number is 24-36 reps total. A total volume of 8 sets of three reps falls into the maximal strength w hypertrophy and this volume is not too high to achieve the goals that CYC has set for himself. He is trying to add a bit of mass while also gaining strength.

5X5 is a good program, but is simple a guideline along which goal you have set at the time you are utilizing it. For the above parameters you could use 6 X 4, 3 X 8, 5 X 5, 8 X 3, 2 X 12 and see a similar response from the body. The only difference with each set of numbers is the load on each, as your 8 X 3 would be your heaviest working poundages while 2 X 12 would be your lightest but would still find benefits in the area of concern; that being hypertrophy with maximal strength. Using these types of rep ranges would also allow a trainee to train more often in the week.

The old tyme guys were awesome, and get much respect from me. If you want to get into some cool reading look up a book called the Ultimate Keys to Progress which is a book derived from the old Strength and Health magazines from the 60's and 70's. Each article was written by John Mccallum, and he covers everything from hip-belt squats to 20 rep breathing squats. There's a lot that science has proven over the last 30-40 years (mainly Russian) that verified what guys like Grimek, Pearl, and Reeves did in the gym. In some instances these guys just did what they thought would work best, and that was lift increasingly heavier weights for lower number of reps, and when that stops working move to something a bit different. They did a lot of heavy compound movements and were brutally strong. This is a difference from majority of the "gym" patrons today as they use machines and have no idea how to train at all, and they get tired of not making progress because they don't understand program design and they're scared of lifting heavy weights. CYC is learning his way around, and from what I have seen of his workouts and from talking with him he's doing pretty well, and is willing to learn and adapt to new ideas. This is a good thing, as it shows his willingness to think a bit differently. Remember most people can't design their own programs and a shocking number of people don't even know what a Russian Twist is. As far as his program goes it is sound for the time being as it meets his current goals and he's not over training. He's got a long way to go, but so do I, but it's a whole lot of fun trying to put it all together.