Going vegan?

J

Jason1

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I am thinking about going vegan but it is hard to make the decision. I mean we are carnivores and I think that is why Japanese people are so short, because of lack of meat. Or maybe it is a protein thing. I could take soy protein but how good is that? I am a huge animal lover. I think that back in the day that it was alright to eat meat because everyone went out and hunted and it was more natural, I mean we are the top of the food chain. But I hear stuff from certain groups about all the tortorous things that go on at slaughter houses, farms etc. But on the other hand there might be a certain level of exagerration and propoganda in those claims. I am at a total loss and don't know what to do. I believe in the circle of life. Anyone who has annything to say on the whole subject, even philosophy wise, please don't hesitate.
 
I do know that to be a vegan it is hard work. You have to plan your whole day around what you eat. You will need to have the proper replacements so that you get the same amount of energy that you used to.

We are made to eat meat so I am not sure why so many people feel it is wrong. I know the animals get killed and such in the slaughter houses so that we can eat but its nothing out of the ordinary really. We all know they exist and we could protest but in the end we need hormones from certain meat.

If we sat around all day eating rice and soy products we would have to drink a lot of milk to balance out the hormone level in order to grow. Or we would be short and skinny.

Sometimes I wonder how much hormones American food has in it because I swear your fast food hamburgers taste different than ours. An your girls will be like 13 and look 21. On average your teen males are bigger as well.

I am a meat luver and always will be. If there are any vegans here share your experience as I would like to know more from a personal level.
 
Ironnically while field dressing a deer, I slashed my left index finger today and I really cannot type much for several days till I get unstitched. This is an interseting topic I'd like to talk more about, but I really can't get to deep right now. Short version is I don't recommend it. There are some folks in the dietary community that are starting to question whether high amounts of soy is good for a person and you'll be eating shitloads of it as a vegan.
 
Okay, first thing is first, we are not made to eat meat. Nope! We aren't. The human body is vegetarian, but we abuse it by putting corpses into it. We eat the dead. It is no different from killing your brother and eating his flesh. This is the cold, hard, blunt truth. I decided to just come out and say it instead of beating around the bush about it.

Our body is made to exist primarily on grains, legumes (beans), and dairy. Soy is not neccesary. Vegetables, fruits, and nuts are also important compliments to the staple foods of milk, grains, and beans. The human body can survive well off dairy alone.

There is Nothing in meat that we need to have that we can not get from other sources.

The plain truth about it is that we enjoy murdering. We love the taste of blood. It is a drug. We crave blood, violence, the death of others... subconsciously, and this is why we eat meat. It is not possible to be peaceful if you are mercilessly killing others and eating their cadavers.

I didn't want to get into this at all here because I know that people are generally of short temper when you break it down to the elementary subconscious reasonings of corpse consumption. I am sure I shall be flamed for this reason, I expect it actually and of course it is natural for someone to want to, because they do not fully understand. I don't want to come off as harsh, which I probably do, but I just wanted to strongly dispell some myths and help you out. There is plenty more to say on it but above all I do not wish to get into an arguement. If this becomes anything other than peaceful discussion I'll simply stop posting because I do not wish to cause any hard feelings or troubles. I do not make personal attacks and I hope that I do not receive any.
 
Stuff, there's one thing you're wrong about. There are several irreplacable amino acids that can only be aquired by eating animal products (meat in particular). Milk protein can certainly be a fair replacement for satisfying a person's protein needs, but it isn't up to par with meat in it's amino acid profile. Besides, humans have evolved to be the perfect omnivore; we can and should readily consume foods from all sources available.
Soy shouldn't be consumed by men at all IMO, since it is a naturally occurring estrogen like compound. Soy and other vegetable based proteins have a low biologic value, i.e. most of what you consume will be rejected by your body.

I don't like the way they treat animals in slaughterhouses any more than the next person, but I do believe eating meat in modertion is essential for a man's well being.

Jason, if you want to have a clear conscience and still stay healthy, I suggest you at least keep the dairy and perhaps eggs as well in your diet. Don't go completely vegan- that is something a human body isn't built to endure.
 
Stuff is absolutely correct. Our bodies are NOT designed to eat meat. If we were, you wouldn't need butchers or steak knives, nor would we need to cook the meat. When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger have a barbeque?

It is physically impossible for the human mouth to chew through the skin of, say, a cow. A true carnivore, a lion, has a much different oral cavity/jaw structure than a human being. Our mouths are not designed to tear flesh from an animal. Even the digestive system is different. Yes, we can make tools which allow us to prepare meats to be consumed, but it's not what you would call 'natural.'

A human being's perfect food is fruit. Think of it this way: If you were placed buck naked, no tools to speak of, in a cow pasture full of cows or in an apple orchard, you would starve to death in the cow pasture, whereas, you would survive quite nicely in the apple orchard.
 
There are 22 amino acids that comprise protien. Of those 22, 8 cannot be synthesized by the human body and are thus called essential amino acids. Of those 8, all are abundantly available in non-corpse products. The whole protien arguement is the biggest myth out there. Dairy products, grains, beans, and nuts are all concentrated sources of protein. Cheese, peanuts, and lentils, for instance, contain more protein per ounce than hamburger, pork, or porterhouse steak.

Qouted:
"A study by Dr. Fred Stare of Harvard and Dr. Mervyn Hoarding of Loma Linda University made extensive comparisons between the protein intake of vegetarians and flesh-eaters. They concluded that "each group exceeded twice its requirement for every essential amino acid and surpassed this amount by large margins for most of them."

For many Americans, protein makes up more than twenty percent of their diet, nearly twice the quantity recommended by the World Health Organizations. Although inadequate amounts of protein will cause loss of strength, excess protein cannot be utilized by the body; rather, it is converted into nitrogenous wastes that burden the kidneys. The primary energy source for the body is Carbohydrates. Only as a last resort is the body's protein utilized for energy production. Too much protein intake actually reduces the body's energy capacity. In a series of comparative endurance tests conducted by Dr. Irving Fisher of Yale, vegetarians performed twice as well as meat-eaters. By reducing the non-vegetarians' protein consumption by twenty percent, Dr. Fisher found their efficiency increased by thirty-three percent. Numerous other studies have shown that a proper vegetarian diet provides more nutritional energy than meat. Furthermore, a study by Dr. J. Iotekyo and V. Kipani at Brussels University showed that vegetarians were able to perform physical tests two to three times longer than meat-eaters Before exhaustion and were fully recovered from fatigue in one fifth the time needed by the meat-eaters."
 
some of you guys seem to have some pretty dodgy arguments, but as Stuff said this should be a peacful debate, so i'll put in my bit, and im not here to insult anyone.

we do not eat meat because subconsciously we like blood, violence and murder, thats just a wild claim and i'm sure there's practically no evidence to back it up.

and to say that we not designed for meat because we basically don't have pointy teeth and claws is also a wild claim that is very hard to back up. anyways we have evolved the greatest natural weapon, an opposing thumb.

we need to kill to eat and live, whether we are killing animals or plants.
 
jGman said:
Stuff is absolutely correct. Our bodies are NOT designed to eat meat. If we were, you wouldn't need butchers or steak knives, nor would we need to cook the meat. When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger have a barbeque?

It is physically impossible for the human mouth to chew through the skin of, say, a cow. A true carnivore, a lion, has a much different oral cavity/jaw structure than a human being. Our mouths are not designed to tear flesh from an animal. Even the digestive system is different. Yes, we can make tools which allow us to prepare meats to be consumed, but it's not what you would call 'natural.'

A human being's perfect food is fruit. Think of it this way: If you were placed buck naked, no tools to speak of, in a cow pasture full of cows or in an apple orchard, you would starve to death in the cow pasture, whereas, you would survive quite nicely in the apple orchard.
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That isn't a good argument. Think about it: we are the next step up the ladder in evolution from chimps, which are very much meat eating creatures, albeit often thought to be strictly vegetarian. The only reason why humans can't chew through raw meat is that we have evolved beyond the need for powerful jaws and canines designed for killing. Our dental structure is still reminiscent of a carnivore/omnivore's teeth set. Just because we can't chew through raw meat, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't be eating it. We can't process many other non animal foods, either, so that argument is invalid. Besides, humans ate uncooked meat before the invention of fire. Maybe not as often as today, but it was still consumed occasionally. Raw meat can be eaten if it's pure, and our bodies won't reject it.

And stuff, protein is a poor source of energy, that is very true (also the reason why it is less inclined to fatten you up). But, unlike carbohydrates, it is essential for the various biological processes of the body. Carbs are just used as fuel, and the human body can survive well without them. Fats and protein are essential to life, though. But I'm sure you already knew all this, and I don't mean to sound like a smart ass. :P

It is also a fact that ever since man invented fire and thus began eating more and more meat, there was a huge jump in human evolution. Population growth exploded everywhere and humanity really began to 'thrive' from that point on.

Anyway, the healthiest diet would be one that closely resembles that of our caveman ancestors'. I.e. plenty of high fiber, veggies, nuts, fruits, and MEAT. If you want to be truly puritan about it, eat fish and insects.
 
Evidence to back it up is very simple. We in no way need meat, whatsoever, for any sort of nutritional value. Therefore, we only eat it for it's taste. What is it's taste? Blood. Mmm, blood. Having an acquired taste for blood means having a taste for violence and murder.

Here's a few little important facts that show a lot:

Physiological Comparisons​

Meat eater - Has claws
Herbivore - No claws
Man - No claws

Meat eater - No skin pores, perspires through tounge
Herbivore - Perspires through skin pores
Man - Perspires through skin pores

Meat eater - Sharp front teeth for tearing, no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivore - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars
Man - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars

Meat eater - Intestinal tract 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out quickly
Herbivore - Intestinal tract 10-12 times body length
Man - Intestinal tract 12 times body length

Meat eater - Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivore - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters
Man - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters

It should also be noted that meat eaters cannot chew. Their jaw only moves up and down, simply to tear flesh, and they eat it whole, unchewed. Our mouths are designed to chew sideways to grind down crisp vegetables and hearty grains and such. Just try to take one huge bite out of a living hog and swallow it without chewing. A meat eater could do it.
 
Shafty, a lot of what you said is just more myths. That's what I'm here for, to dispell myths. :cool:

To say we evolved out of having the correct physical structures for eating meat does not make sense. A more logical way of looking at it would be that we evolved out of such things because we weren't meant to eat it, but actually we never had such things to evolve into or out of. What 'science' today things we evolved from, is simply a theory, nothing more.

Actually carbohydrates are very much so essential. Like protien, they are used in various functions of the cell such as the transfer of nutrients in and out of it. Aside from that carbohydrates are our main source of energy. If something is our main source of energy, how is that non-essential? I suppose if you didn't need energy to survive, maybe. Animal fats and protiens are to no extent essential to life, the fats from them are actually dangerous. Essential fatty acids are found elsewhere, such as in grains, dairy, and vegetables, and protien is so plentiful in grains, beans, nuts, and dairy.

I find the whole "we're at the top of the food chain" arguement to be humorous. It would be lowering our position to put ourselves on the food chain. That chain is for animals, not civilized humans. To lower yourself to the position of animal to say you're the top animal is up to you, though.
 
Stuff_ said:
Evidence to back it up is very simple. We in no way need meat, whatsoever, for any sort of nutritional value. Therefore, we only eat it for it's taste. What is it's taste? Blood. Mmm, blood. Having an acquired taste for blood means having a taste for violence and murder.

Here's a few little important facts that show a lot:

Physiological Comparisons​

Meat eater - Has claws
Herbivore - No claws
Man - No claws

Meat eater - No skin pores, perspires through tounge
Herbivore - Perspires through skin pores
Man - Perspires through skin pores

Meat eater - Sharp front teeth for tearing, no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivore - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars
Man - No sharp front teeth has flat rear molars

Meat eater - Intestinal tract 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out quickly
Herbivore - Intestinal tract 10-12 times body length
Man - Intestinal tract 12 times body length

Meat eater - Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivore - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters
Man - Stomach acid 20 times less than meat eaters

It should also be noted that meat eaters cannot chew. Their jaw only moves up and down, simply to tear flesh, and they eat it whole, unchewed. Our mouths are designed to chew sideways to grind down crisp vegetables and hearty grains and such. Just try to take one huge bite out of a living hog and swallow it without chewing. A meat eater could do it.
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okay first your logic for why we eat meat is completely crazy, no offence. but really, eat meat for taste-taste is blood-blood is violence-we eat meat because we like violence. im not disagreeing because of my opinion, im disagreeing because its completely non logical. liking the taste of meat does in no way mean we like violence.

now your next bit, "meat eaters have claws", what about a shark, same goes for the perspiring part.
"meat eaters have sharp teeth", what about a lizard, a frog, a fish, a bird, they all have evolved specific physical feature to help them kill, just like we have.
i can't comment on the intestinal tract or stomach acid bit coz i don't know enough about it.
 
I posted that list mainly for the intestinal tract and stomach acid facts. Those are the most important and truth-awakening facts. Our bodys simply aren't made to process meat but we abuse it with the corpses because we like the taste of death. As for the other things, those are basic generalizations that apply to most land-dwelling creatures, not air or water dwelling.
 
Stuff_ said:
we like the taste of death.
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this is your main argument, prove it, or at least provide some kind of evidence.

eating meat does not mean we like the taste of death, plants are living to, does eating them mean we like the taste of death if we eat them, do all animals that eat living things like the taste of death?
 
I think it is a very simple concept to get. Killing is a violent act, we have to kill the animal to eat it. Eating meat is killing, essentially. Enjoying meat is enjoying killing. Everything is more connected that it seems. A dead animal is a corpse. A dead human is a corpse. A dead plant is not a corpse. If you enjoy eating meat, that means you enjoy eating corpses. Corpses that had to be murdered. This is not different from killing a human and eating it. How is that not violent? How is it peaceful to murder? Meat is murder. This is a very simple concept. But most people would rather look the other way simply so that they can enjoy the taste of meat (which was a living being, Just like you and I are, that was killed, thus the taste of death).

Edit: This is all on the human, moral, and spiritual platforms. Unless viewed from there it makes no sense at all, and animals seem like lifeless "matter". There is no question of the word "spiritual" without the word "vegetarian", the same thing goes for the word "moral". It is immoral to kill, therefore it is immoral to eat meat because that involves killing. Our bodies and animals bodys are the same in the sense that they are both comprised of matter, so if we wish to eat matter in the form of meat, might as well eat our brothers. The animals are our brothers as well, so we already are.

And yes, animals that eat meat like the taste of death. That is why they took birth as a meat-eating animal, because that is how they wished to enjoy, by eating the corpses of other animals.
 
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Stuff, you're forgetting the middle ground, though. Omnivores. As a matter of fact, we have a dental structure that has traits of both plant eaters' and carnivores'. We have flat molars at the back of our mouths designed for chewing, and short but visible canines at the front of our mouths (I'm no dentist, so I don't know all the definitions for different human teeth ;) ). Think pigs and bears for example. Both of these have teeth that are perfectly designed for processing both plant and animal matter. Well, in pigs it is less obvious, but the more meat they have access to, the bigger they grow.
Again, I must stress that certain amino acids can only be aquired through the consumption of meat. Vegetable based proteins are a very poor substitute because of their poor biological value, but I suppose you could do fine with dairy products alone. I'm not saying a person can't live a full, healthy life without meat, but I question the alleged health benefits of such a lifestyle. There are no studies which would indicate that vegans are healthier in any way. Quite the contrary; they have weaker immune systems and often suffer from various ailments.

As far as the carb argument is concerned, I too believe we need a balanced diet of carbs, protein and fats. However, people CAN survive without carbs, even if the body goes into a state of ketogenesis. If you strip away all protein and fats, you won't live long. That was the point I was trying to make.
Of course we need a certain amount of carbs just to make it through the day, but in the end, they are just fuel. They don't take any part in any of the vital repairing and rebuilding functions of the body.
As far as animal fats are concerned; yes, they are unhealthy in large quantities, but we DO NEED them in small amounts. Cutting off all saturated fats by eliminating all animal based foods is a bad call. I don't exactly eat bacon fat right off the pan, either, but even though I only eat meat on occasion (I mostly eat dairy products), I still get the minimum amount of necessary 'bad fats'. Saturated fats and cholesterol actually have a direct impact on your testosterone production. That is why many vegan men suffer from low test levels.
I don't see how any of what I posted was "more myths". It is all backed by scientific fact. I can also see that we are drifting into the realm of theology vs science here.
I'd rather not go there at all.

Thanks for staying respectful and mature in your posts, though. :)
 
Stuff_, your repeating yourself, and your arguement just doesn't add up.

your argument contradicts itself, killing is violent you say, so eating somthing we've killed is enjoying violence. but if we kill a plant to eat that's apparantly different??? doesn't add up.

killing doesn't have to be an act of violence, if it was done out of necessity.

simple fact, we need to kill to eat to live. therefore killing is a necessity not an enjoyment.
 
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Stuff_ said:
And yes, animals that eat meat like the taste of death. That is why they took birth as a meat-eating animal, because that is how they wished to enjoy, by eating the corpses of other animals.
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ignorant and fantastical, im outa this argument.

(no offence)
 
Respect is neccesary for any real conversation or relations, I just love being nice to people and can't stand to be mean, and it's nice to have friendly conversation.

Killing animals is in no way a neccesity, though. Therefore it is out of enjoyment. We don't need to kill animals because we have more than ample grains, milk, beans, vegetables, nuts, etc. And Shafty, to repeat myself there is not a single thing in meat that you need that you cannot get from grains, milk, beans, vegetables, or nuts. If you look at the teeth of a carnivore they don't resemble ours to any extent, look at the teeth of a cat... they are long, pointy, sharp, and most definably round. We have two canines, which aren't all that sharp, are flat, and short. Made for cutting crisp vegetables. ;)

We aren't made like any of the omnivores, either. But out of personal choice in taste, we eat meat. There have been many studies that show that by all means we are less healthy if we eat meat to any degree. If someone is healthy and they eat meat, then by taking all meat out of their diet and replacing it with a balanced vegetarian diet can only make them more healthy. We don't need any animal-based fats or anything from animals, except for milk. I'm not talking about vegan here either, by vegetarian I mean vegan except for dairy. Milk is important. But in every respect vegetarian is more healthy than eating corpses. There is nothing lacking. Actually my test levels are so high that I'm disturbed by it... I'm wayyy more horny than I'd like to be. :s

And yes, I've been repeating myself, and saying it in different ways, to show that it really is that simple. Killing plants is also killing, but if you must kill to survive, why kill to the highest degree? At least try to minimize it to vegetarian foods. As for carbs, our cells are coated with carbohydrate strands that are needed for proper cell function, they're more important than most realize.
 
Shithead said:
ignorant and fantastical, im outa this argument.

(no offence)
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I wasn't saying that there was anything wrong with animals killing and eating other animals, just that that is the mode in which they enjoy or else they wouldn't have adapted the facilities to enjoy in that way. That's how nature works, if a creature wishes to enjoy in a certain way it will give that creature the facility to enjoy in that way, nothing positive or negative about it really...

I'm sorry if I offended you and came off as ignorant though, although many of these concepts must be studied at great lengths to understand so at first glance it very well may seem to be so. I am sorry if I've upset anyone as I do not wish to do so, I only wish to help out my fellow brothers.
 
Since we weren't made to eat meat and we only do it for the taste, I encourage you to go a week eating only veggies and see how much energy you have. Also I believe the set of teeth in my mouth the K-9 looking ones are for shredding meat not fruits and vegetables.

Give me a full set of dull teeth like a cow and then you can say that we are made for vegetables and fruit.
 
Well, I'm 100% vegetarian. I don't eat meat, fish, or eggs. I've tried it longer than a week, closer to two years. Back when I ate meat I was rather lethargic. Now I have much much more energy (and more testosterone). And actually a week isn't enough time to grade progress, you can notice some effects by a week, but to really notice the healing effects of not eating meat (and eating a balanced vegetarian diet) you should do it for over a month. By the first month you'll start feeling more pure, because your body has been given some time to detox from the meat. Yeah, detox... because corpses are like poison. Our "K-9" teeth do not even closely resemble those of meat eaters. Our teeth are actually closer to the molars of cows and other vegetarian animals. The sharp parts are for cutting veggies, if they were made to cut meat they'd be round, longer, sharper, and our jaw would only open and close like a hinge, no moving side to side, and we wouldn't have to chew.
 
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Well, it looks like your point of view is set in stone and I can't sway it with anything I say. I've made my points (all backed by science) and you aren't agreeing with them. Fair enough.
 
Yes, I've studies this subject thouroughly enough to know now. What I've said is all scientific. "Science" can never prove that the human body is meant to have meat or that it's healthier with it because it simply is not. Meat is a burden to our health, but we eat it anyway because we like it's taste. One thing I know for a fact, is that I've personally been able to reap the benefits. I'm now less sluggish, less lethargic, my viens feel lighter because there isn't so much cholesterol in them, higher test levels, more energetic, an easy way to stay at my optimum body weight and composition... among other mental, spiritual, and karmic benefits. I feel much more clean all around, physically, mentally, karmicly, and spiritually. I'm definately more peaceful and happy.

When you eat it you don't really know what it's like on the other side because you're conditioned to it, the best way to find out is to go on a balanced vegetarian diet and find out first hand, for a few months. It's like how if you take a little arsenic each day, eventually you build a tolerance to it but also your system is negatively affected, but you don't notice much because that's just how you are and it's become all you know.

Anyway.. it was nice talking with you and I'm glad you remained nice and level-headed, that is very respectable. :)
 
Thought this might be interesting for the debate:

http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm

That's a paper published by the American Dietetic Association saying that vegetarian and vegan diets "are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases...This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians, including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients."

I'm not vegetarian or vegan, I just thought this would maybe be helpful.
 
A lot of my friends are Vegan and they're in madd good shape... Hydromaxm...
 
Jason1 said:
I am thinking about going vegan but it is hard to make the decision. I mean we are carnivores and I think that is why Japanese people are so short, because of lack of meat. Or maybe it is a protein thing. I could take soy protein but how good is that? I am a huge animal lover. I think that back in the day that it was alright to eat meat because everyone went out and hunted and it was more natural, I mean we are the top of the food chain. But I hear stuff from certain groups about all the tortorous things that go on at slaughter houses, farms etc. But on the other hand there might be a certain level of exagerration and propoganda in those claims. I am at a total loss and don't know what to do. I believe in the circle of life. Anyone who has annything to say on the whole subject, even philosophy wise, please don't hesitate.
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I have heard that Soy Milk is bad for you... but I used to drink it when I was a baby because I couldn't drink real milk at all... but it is good haha i like it, i hear it's good and bad for you at the same time, but if you wanna go Vegan, go for it :P
 
If youre doing it merely for "health" reasons, I dont know that it would really make that big of a difference in the long run. You cant really escape the hormones, or other countless chemicals in the foods we consume these days. You can eat 100% organic beef...in other words the cows the beef came from were supposedly never given any growth hormones, therefor the meat is supposedly healthier...and the milk is too...(growth hormones in the milk we urge out kids to drink is why our daughters hit puberty much younger these days by the way)...BUT, there are still pesticides in whatever the cow ate. So, sure you can maybe avoid the hormones, but not the pesticides. LOL. Then you have the fact that farmers spray their food crops so they grow bigger crops by warding off pests with pesticides. The plants absorb those pesticides. No amount of washing/cleaning will remove them. Sure why not be a vegan? The pesticides will probably give ya cancer too one day. ;) I just assume eat as healthy as I can.....simple carbohydrates are the source of most obesity, and obesity related issues these days...and enjoy life, rather than totally commit to what can be a very difficult way to eat.
 
Stuff I think you are missing the point. I love animals, but I don't mind if they die to sustain the circle of life. Such is nature and we are a part of nature. I wouldn't be pissed of at a lion if I went wandering the plains of Africa and gotten a limb eaten. I would be pissed at my situation, but in no way would I think that lion is an "evil" lion. Herbivores in the animal kingdom don't find meat morally wrong and eat vegan as a result. They are just that way. I was thinking about going vegan because I have heard that the quality of life of these animals are bad, for all of them. Egg hens, milk cows, beef cows, etc. If they have a good life and they are killed to become food then that is fine. I am just not sure that I what "groups" I can trust.
 
That's why I dont let my "conscience" or emotions determine what sustains my body. ;) I love animals too. Cats and dogs in particular, but I find all animals beautiful. I know that most animals that are kept as livestock and used for the food industry are kept in often dispicable conditions that would make most animal lovers furious, but I accept that this class of animals is just that. FOOD.
 
Jason, I never said there was anything wrong with a lion eating your limb, that's what they do, they're carnivores. There is no "evil" lion, that's an indifferent situation really, well... except for the loss of your limb. ;) Humans, however are not, but can choose to eat meat because they like to kill. Otherwise there is no real reason to eat meat. Compassion, morality, spirituality, equality, and such are all great reasons to be vegetarian, and those words really gain their meaning when put to practice in such ways. I also see the angle you're taking it at, and that is also a good one. These living beings, that are just as alive as you and I, are tortured mercilessly until the day they get their throat slit and their muscles ripped out of their still flailing bodies, while they can still feel it.

Did you know that when you feel pain, fear, or anger your body releases chemicals and hormones? Well, those animals are full of those harmful enzymes because of the way they were treated all their lives, and also because of how violently and painfully they are slaughtered. Our body takes in those hormones and all those pain and fear hormones are now in our bodies, subtly affecting us beyond our scope of perception.

As for soy milk, I don't drink it. I hear it has it's health values, but nothing can replace good old cow's milk. I want to own my own cow someday. :cool: But yeah, being vegetarian is not only beneficial to you, but also to nature and the animals you didn't eat. It's not that "well, they're already killing them so might as well join in", no, the fewer people eat them the less they kill. Every person counts, every person makes a difference, by their own personal actions, though you may not see the result of it in nature you surely will in your physical, mental, and spiritual health. And it's also not that "it's already dead", no, it was killed just for you. Every bite is the very same as the action of killing the animal personally (karmicly, at the least).

I'm so glad you all are so understanding and kind in this debate here, that's very nice and I appreciate it. :)

[P.S. - Warning: Graphic, Very Disturbing Content! Here is a link to a video of just some of the unspeakable horrors that go on in factory farms and slaughter houses. It is very difficult to get film of these places because they don't want it to be known, but here it is: Meet Your Meat

And for those of you that are thinking "those fear and pain chemicals aren't in kosher corpse products," there is this: Kosher Farms?

Edit: The video links are on the right side of both pages.

NOTICE!: I have warned you, this stuff is disturbing. If you get queezy easily, don't watch! And don't blame me for anything if it disturbs you. Blame the people who did it. I could only watch half of the first one about a year ago, the second one is new and I haven't watched it. I stopped halfway on the first one because that is where they started to show cows. The second one starts out with cows. That is the worst... killing a cow is the same as killing a human. These animals on our plates... they're not just "food", they're not some inanimate matter, they are living, breathing, feeling, conscious living beings just like you and me.
 
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I drink milk because it is healthy, and cows give more milk than their calf needs, and if you keep your own cow and keep it happy it can give milk up to around 12 years or so (in most farms they give milk only 3 years or so). We can survive off dairy alone. I didn't watch it once they showed cows because I cannot stand to see cows treated badly. I love cows, so it was too much to watch. I try to get organic milk as well, but the best is to get it from a local farmer, they usually do not mistreat their cows. I know that factories mistreat their cows and it saddens me, but because I drink milk doesn't mean I can't talk, I just need to buy organic or from local farmers. I'd prefer to have my own cow so I can take care of her nicely. You don't have to drink milk, meat is the big issue. That's the only difference between vegetarian and vegan, me and vegans, is that we drink milk and they don't. Everything else is the same, we can't even have most cheeses made in america because they use animal rennet.

Edit: Milk is like love, it is very nurturing. It promotes good bodily and mental health. Whoever gives you milk is your mother, first your mother who gave birth to you gave you milk, and then as you grew older the second mother, the cow gave you milk. To kill or eat the cow is the same as doing so to the mother who gave birth to you, and she (the cow) should be treated like your own mother, with the same love and respect. The cow gives us her milk out of her own kindness, so we should respect her and treat her nicely (although in some farms they mistreat the cow, which is very sad :( ).
 
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YOU FUCKING HYPOCRYTE. Please don't hijack this thread anymore you propogandist. You give this we love murder shit and say that you you drink milk out of love? People eat meat because it tastes good and it is good for you. In the video you posted it says that drinking milk directly supports the VEAL industry. Because they say that cows are constantly impregnated to keep milk production high and there calfs are sent off to be veal. So you love the taste of baby murder? WOW! Can someone please tell me if these Penis EnlargementTA websites and stuff like that are propoganda? Please. Are most farms the way they say or are they humane with the animals quality of life. If I eat a steak, where does it come from? Did the cow have a short, miserable life full of pain or what. I don't believe that killing for food is wrong. I am opposed to the lifestyle that the animals live. However I don't know if it is true. Some people think that killing for food is wrong and will lie to you to say to get you to go their way no matter what. I want to know both sides of the story and seperate the lies from the truth. Then I will make my decision.
 
I just came across this post and have read all the posts. Jason, going vegan is a big decison and needs to be made very carefully. The reason must be more than a dislike for killing animals. Maybe you don't like meat and want to do something different, I don't know. I recently became a vegan. That was a big decison for me. I did it for health reasons. My body was a mess. My blood was a mess. A total vegitarian diet is very healthly and those who are vegitarians can be healthy and very active. There is enough protien available in plant products to allow you a very active life. The facts are that many of the top athletes are vegans. It was a tough thing at first to know what to eat and how to prepare food. Now I enjoy eating and feel more energy and am very happy with my choice. It is hard to eat out at restaurants and in people's homes but folk have been very understanding wth me. I don't make a big issue and plan for my diet accordingly. Many good points have been made in this forum on both sides. I know that more and more information is being published regarding how to control diabetes with a vegitarian diet. More and more information is being given with regard to soy and it's use. The trouble is that there is one bulletin saying pro and one saying no. So, until there is more information you can have proof for one side and the same for the other. I choose not to use milk or eggs because of the feeding program of most producers. We are killing ourselves with hormones. No one will disagree that the stuff they feed beef, hogs, chickens etc. to get them to grow fast are certainly affecting our children let alone the regular population. Thanks for listening. GS
 
GS I like talking to you and you are always very helpful. Thank you very much. I will keep in touch about my choice.
 
I am sorry that I offended you. I suppose it is best to stop posting in this thread as I am no longer welcome. Thanks to those who were kind to me, I appreciate that. I never said I drink milk out of love, I said giving milk is an act of love, like a mother giving her child milk. That gives the child the love and nutrients they need that formula won't give them. Of course it's wrong the way factory farms get milk and that is different and wrong. You can call me a hypocrite and think that it is propaganda, that is fine, you are entitled to your opinion even though you haven't studied it enough or been presented enough in-depth information on it, as I am entitled to my own opinion. People who eat meat do not do so because it is good for you, because it is not good for you. They eat it because they like the taste. That is fine. I don't eat it because I don't like the taste, it was adversly affecting my health, and moral issues. That is just me, other people will and do have different opinions. Thanks for the kindness and welcome, though, and if anyone would like some personal help, nutritional or otherwise, you are welcome to PM me. If you are not wanting my advice there is no need to flame me but if you want to that also is fine, we all are entitled to our own opinions.
 
Jason1 said:
YOU FUCKING HYPOCRYTE. Please don't hijack this thread anymore you propogandist. You give this we love murder shit and say that you you drink milk out of love? People eat meat because it tastes good and it is good for you. In the video you posted it says that drinking milk directly supports the VEAL industry. Because they say that cows are constantly impregnated to keep milk production high and there calfs are sent off to be veal. So you love the taste of baby murder? WOW! Can someone please tell me if these Penis EnlargementTA websites and stuff like that are propoganda? Please. Are most farms the way they say or are they humane with the animals quality of life. If I eat a steak, where does it come from? Did the cow have a short, miserable life full of pain or what. I don't believe that killing for food is wrong. I am opposed to the lifestyle that the animals live. However I don't know if it is true. Some people think that killing for food is wrong and will lie to you to say to get you to go their way no matter what. I want to know both sides of the story and seperate the lies from the truth. Then I will make my decision.
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Oh, well, another good debate ruined by name calling.
 
Yeah, no flaming, Jason1. Please disagree peacefully.

I thought Stuff_ contributed some really good info to the thread. Just because he posted the video does not mean that he agrees with everything in it. The material that Penis EnlargementTA puts out generally advocates a total vegan diet, a diet which Stuff_ never claimed to follow. He's a vegetarian, as he said (not vegan), and vegetarians can also drink milk, and some have no problem whatsoever with eating dairy products and eggs.
 
9 Please don't speak to me like I am a child. I Know the difference between vegan and vegetarian. And I know what Stuff's stance is. He just is a hypocryte. Read his posts and watch the video that he posted.
 
I don't see any hypocrisy in Stuff_'s posts. But you can defend your flaming him as much as you like, but saying "YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE" and calling him a propagandist is a flame and will not be tolerated no matter what your defense. This is an adult forum, and we expect you to be able to debate like adults. Your post was childish. What kind of response did you expect?
 
So if I dropped the F-bomb would have been alright? I can't call someone a hypocryte and a propogandist even if they are. Then that gives people like him a license to say whatever they want.
 
Saying that someone is contradicting themselves, or saying "you're being hypocritical" is much different than saying "YOU FUCKING HYPOCRYTE. Please don't hijack this thread anymore you propogandist." There's something called tact, which you seem to lack. I don't care if you curse, but don't flame people. End of discussion.
 
I said before and I'll say it again. He is a hypocryte and a propogandist and I no longer want to here his opinion. I agree I should have said it better but if you think I'm going to backdown on the issue that's just bullshit.
 
I never asked you to back down. But, he's just as entitled to post in this thread as you are. You may not like what he posts, but too bad. It's his opinion.

BTW, just because you disagree with an opinion doesn't make it bullshit.
 
I think you just don't understand my position at all, due to your own biases and the fact that I've hardly given any information about it, or myself, or my beliefs, as well as the way I presented it. From my very first post I said right out that I'm not going to make a nice presentation of it and get into the intricacies and said that therefore I am sure to be flamed, and I was. I felt like just coming right out and saying the result of it all, which makes no sense to most unless they also see all the points leading up to it and many other intricate scientific aspects, and physical, mental, spiritual, and karmic aspects. Of course, though, now I have used up my welcome by not making such a presentation, but I didn't feel it was the time or place to get that deep into it, I figured just the basis and result was wanted. Ah well *shrug* I'm not affected by the namecalling, I know what's real and what isn't, what's hipocracy and what isn't, and what's propaganda and what isn't. I'm just not very good at presenting information in a way that everyone can begin to understand it. I know I'm not welcome here anymore and that you hate me, Jason1, but honestly I'm not bothered because I understand that you don't understand what I was even getting at, even if you think you do. I didn't even give very much information, and if I do now, your mind is already set against it so because of that, you'll just block it all. I tried to help, but I suppose I approached it in all the wrong ways. I'm sorry to have been a disturbance. :)
 
Yep, that's why vegetarians are more healthy.
Shafty said:
There are no studies which would indicate that vegans are healthier in any way. Quite the contrary; they have weaker immune systems and often suffer from various ailments.
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I've never seen a study that shows corpse-eaters being more healthy, and I even posted studies that say vegetarians are more healthy, studies you claimed didn't exist... before you said that.
Shafty said:
Again, I must stress that certain amino acids can only be aquired through the consumption of meat. Vegetable based proteins are a very poor substitute because of their poor biological value, but I suppose you could do fine with dairy products alone.
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There is simply no truth to that at all. ;)

Protien is protien.

But then, I'm just pushing my luck with posting here because I'm no longer welcome. I just love talking about purity though, and helping people know the actual truth about it (whether they understand it or not). :)
 
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