Opinions on Jesus Christ

Jesus said many times that he is not God, that he is servant of God, subbordinate to God, come to deliver God's message to us. Jesus is the son of God, but disticntly not God Himself, he even said so many times.

Stuff_ said:

Jesus said many times that he is not God, that he is servant of God, subbordinate to God, come to deliver God's message to us. Jesus is the son of God, but disticntly not God Himself, he even said so many times.

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I disagree with you Stuff. So, tell me where he said he was not God and where he said it many times? GS

He said it in many places, I'll qoute just a few for example here, but there's more than just this.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a command, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His command is life everlasting: therefore I speak, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(John 12:49-50)

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
(John 14:31)

In the two verses above, God commands Jesus. If Jesus was God, nobody could command him. Moreover, Jesus says that he loves God. Love necessarily requires two parties; the lover and the beloved.


Now, don't get me wrong here, I love both Jesus and his Father, God more than anything else in existance. But there is only One God, and He is the Father; no one is equal to or above Him. Jesus has a very intimate Father-son relationship with God, and he is purely serving God. Jesus came to teach us of this love, that we might love his Father as well.

I see where you're coming from, Stuff_, but I have to point something else out earlier in the Book of John.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Skip a bit.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as og the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This is He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" (John 1:1-3, 14 NASB)

Also if you check it out thoroughly in the original Greek, it makes much more sense. It's a very key passage in most Christian doctrines, and it's much easier to understand why if you look up the Greek meaning, because it goes much deeper than what we see translated.

Much of the meaning and original feeling of the Bible is "lost in translation." I'd recommend a "Keyword Study Bible" that you can probably get at any Christian (or other) bookstore. I think they come in several different translations. It has many of the words catalogued so you can look up their original Greek, Aramaic (for the 1 or 2 passages that were spoken in Aramaic) or Hebrew meaning. It's extremely helpful in understanding exactly what is meant, especially in some places where the meaning may be unclear.

I believe the man existed, and lived. I believe he lived, and died to prove a point. I dont believe however, that he was as unique of a figure as most Christians paint him out to be. Too many other religions have a similar figure who lived a similar type of life for similar symbolic reasons...whose stories originated LONG before the Christain story of Jesus. Astrology, if you want to make it a religion used the sun as the center figure, with the twelve signs of the zodiac (see 12 deciples of christ) just to name one.

Hey Still if he was a man who died to prove a point what was the point??? What would his message accomplish if he died???

I've discussed the other religions that have similar stories before and they do not originate from the ancients, majority of the stories included under that heading arose during the time of the first century church as to compete with the growing numbers of the Discliples churches. The Zodiac is an established occultic religion that does center around the 12 symbols, but this in no way accompanies the 12 disciples....the number comparison can not be made between two completely different religions as they are associated with a different template, so the meanings are on opposite sides.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jesus and God are one as we are made one with Christ, there is no difference in the two. The identification of Father is reality of who Christ was, He was the Son, God incarnate, Alpha and Omega. Otherwise the first verse of John is wrong or he was mistaken as to what the comforter was telling him.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.

Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.

In this verse you see the three are one, and all originate from the same source, being God the Father, but they are both given authority in the Father's name, another distinction of sameness and oneness.

(Joh 15:13) Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
(Joh 15:14) You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you.
(Joh 15:15) No longer do I call you servants, for the servant doesn't know what his lord does. But I have called you friends, for everything that I heard from my Father, I have made known to you.
(Rom 10:8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
(Rom 10:9) that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These verses together, illustrate that it is not by works, by religious piety, or self-inflicition but by grace alone are we saved through Christ. Christ laid down all He had for His sheep, for the world. He did not lay out any claims as to what necessitated salvation, but Paul makes it clear that it is by belief in the heart and confession of the mouth that salvation is received, and this is the only way. Anyone who tells you any other way should not be received but to be rebuked over their false "truth".

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

This last verse is a requirement of the brethren to those who exist in darkness and live separated from the Lord. We must stand ready and able to answer all questions of the Truth. Peace to all, and that peace can only reside in the one whom God sent as sacrifice for the sins of the world.

A link to a bit of church history... and the institutionalization of Christianity....

http://p203.ezboard.com/fherbsdiscussionboardfrm43.showMessage?topicID=405.topic

Chirst? Isn't that something that you spread on toast?

Oh, OH! You mean Christ... I see, Jesus of Nazareth.

Yep

Well, I believe that Jesus Christ was born about 2000 years ago and was killed by the Jews and Romans 32 years later. I have faith that Jesus Christ was the literal incarnation of God on Earth. I have faith that the sacrifice of Christ absolved my Earthly stain (which is good, because it's awfully big). As for the "immutable truth" of the Bible... sorry, cannot be proven and it doen't affect my faith. As for the "immutable truth" of Creation (versus the credible theory of Evolution)... sorry, cannot be proven and it doesn't affect my faith. As for the "absolute truth" of God and Christ being the sole route to salvation... sorry, cannot be proven and it doesn't affect my faith.
I am a spiritual man. I have faith. I have no need for religious ceremony to bolster my faith (I attend church, nonetheless). I have no need to share my faith with anyone, unless they ask. I am a moral individual, but I am also a human man.

Cheers!
G

No dis or anything but check the myths of mithras, prometheus,osiris,dionysus and of course bacchus.Also Joeseph campbell's the power of myth.The dying god formula is very old and valid to an extant with all of them.Hope this can help flesh out the detals maybe in a more gnostic fashion?

What's interesting to me is that you site myths. I've read the myths, and many of them arose in the third century, along with insitutionalized "christianity". If you have ever read the Gospels, these myths have absolutely no bearing on the reality of Christ. Historically it is proven externally by Josephus the first century ROMAN historian that a man named Jesus of Nazareth was associated with John the Baptist, and was believed by many to be the Christ. So there is historical proof for his existence, along with physical proof of his existence which is shown through the archaeological digs that have been done in the last 50-75 years of the areas surrounding Israel, as well as locations in Rome and other areas. So which is more likely, that this evidence is made up, or that it is as scripture says "1Jo 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God listens to us. He who is not of God doesn't listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

Joh 18:20 Jesus answered him, "I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where the Jews always meet. I said nothing in secret.

If these events can be vouched for throughout history, and the people who were in power during the day knew these events to be false, then why would they ever let people under their authority be manipulated and taken from them. It would not have been allowed, they would have stepped forward and proclaimed the truth to all, that their Christ was not arisen but that He never passed away. But they did not do this, as it is exactly as is written.

Does anyone not understand that the reality is that Luke is accepted as a first rate historian, that the academic institutions accept the four Gospels as 99.9% historically accurate. Why would secular universities and scholars accept such documents as fact if they alas are not? This in itself is rediculous, as through any method tested these documents are supported in their original languages as written because of the number of documents to support their aaccuracy. The KJV is accepted worldwide as the primary english translation because of the care that was taken in translating from greek/latin/hebrew that it's writers can stand side by side with the original translators' academic approach to the transcription process.

Do some research on these documents and how they were written originally and then how they have come to be to us today. You will discover that any questions of authenticity are falls flat on it's face.

All I have to say is this

There have been Satanic Rites, Inverted crosses in blood, the good side isn't really better, man will never realize that religion is created by man.

Aces...You have to understand one very important fact, to exist in the Life of Christ is not religion. It is the farthest thing from religion. What people deem as the "church" is religion, it is a system that is setup so that people will continue to lead and to follow a man of "god" and they will br trapped in a system that in all aspects takes away their humanity as they become more and more entrenched in the "gospel" of whatever church they are residing in. The term eklesia is where the translated word church comes from, and an eklesia is a gathering of people. This could be anyone from the stanists, new agers, masons etc. These would all be considered eklesisa's but no one would call it a church, far from it. So the reality is that yes man creates religion, but Jesus Christ does not seek to bind anyone unto Himself, but to offer freedom in Him so that we may have LIFE everlasting. What churches preach and point to is a system that does not offer Life, but offers motions and actions to make you redeemable to the Father, but also so that you would have the "proper" appearance. This does not invite unity, but division and this is the furthest thing from how brothers and sisters should live.

Matthew 23:8-10 (AMP)
But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone [in the church] on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven. And you must not be called masters (leaders), for you have one Master (Leader), the Christ.

why do you spend your time obsessing over this.........you will NEVER know. No one is ever going to KNOW what happens after you die. Man has been trying to figure it out and explain the unknown since the beggining of civilization. And what have we gotten to.....a way of comforting people into believing they will NEVER die....thus ETERNAL LIFE. Don't you realize people have been trying to sell this for millenia that there is a way to avoid death. There is no way.....you have been born to die, it is your fate...come to grips with it and enjoy the time you have alive. Do not obssess over what may or may not happen after you die. Seize today and enjoy it. And if you need that security that a just god will take you into his arms and accept you as his own, LIVE A MORAL LIFE and call it a day. There is no need for ornate ceremonies every week and bible conventions and posts that just develop the same arguments over and over again.

I do not beleive in a "supernatural" or "divine" entity, however, I do beleive in a supreme being. The earth is too complicated to come about without an intelligent designer. I beleive wholehardedly in Christ, I think he is the way, and whoever hears the truth, hears his voice, and the only way to the father, is through him. I think Jesus was a regular flesh and blood human being, he sweated, he bled, he cried; and I think the "miracles" he performed, were just the use of scientific teachings from our creator/s. For more visit www.rael.org. I dont mean to offend anyone, its just another perspective

Alright, a UFO cult finally shows up! Now I'm just waiting for a scientologist (although they're into aliens as well) to chip in.

To me any religion is equally far fetched as many of the prominent cults anways. They spend so much time trying to justify themselves and trying to somehow prove they're version of things has a leg up on all the others. If you have so much faith, why bother? As far as the god figure/sacrifice stories, a few weeks back I saw an entire special on television about the pheonomena. There are similar figures to Christ in religions and cultures that predate Christianity and Christ by centuries according to the show, which I thought was rather even handed. Hard to argue with the archeological record. It also explained that ther were even multiple Christ-like messiah guys roaming around the middle east at the time of Christ that had their own personal cults and following just like Jesus. They all proclaimed to be a form of salvation, performed miracles, arrived from miraculous conception, ect, all clearly recorded form surviving documents. Perhaps they'll rebroadcast it sometime . . .

Now Swank... just because you're the smartest guy on the whole fucking forum and have all the right answers doesn't mean you have to lord it over everyone else. Come on, the guy's a Newbie! Besides, if you're not careful, he may instruct Rael's flying saucers to melt your brain :D


My, my, I do love sarcasm.

Have you ever read about those guys, or the scientologists for that matter? Personally I think the whole cult mentalilty thing is kind of fascinating, in a really troubling way . . .

In all reality guys its not a cult. How can it be a cult if it branches out from all the main religions?

Ah well, I don't mean to pick on you. In all the outside literature I've read about the organization it is described as a cult, so I guess that all depends on just what your definition is. To be honest I find what you believe in to be just as unlikely as Christianity, Islam, or any other religious group, so more power to you if it makes you happy. But, uh, head for the door if they start handing out kool-aid or anything . . .