German judges rule parents can be brought to court for circumcising children

DLD · Jun 26, 2012

Parents having their sons circumcised can be brought before a judge for causing bodily injury, even if they did so for religious reasons, a regional court in Germany has ruled.

The recent landmark decision will likely draw the condemnation of Jewish and Muslim communities, although official representatives have refrained from commenting so far, saying they first want to study the reasons given for the judgment.
Following the judgment by the District Court of Cologne, neither the rights of parents nor the constitutional freedom of religion can justify interventions such as circumcision, according to Financial Times Deutschland, which first reported the story.

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Wang Chung · Jun 26, 2012

I think for most religions that practice circumcision, as long as you get it done eventually, you are still conforming to religious principles

MAXAMEYES · Jun 26, 2012

This is judicial intervention at its most invasive. What's next?
Jail time for imposing chores?

rebel2011 · Jun 26, 2012

So you think the amputation of an unwilling child's foreskin is ok? What if it were a finger or piece of ear? Would you still think it was unjustified for the court to rule on that form of mutilation?

In reality it is probably just a way for insurance companies to get out of paying for the procedure. Big money rules the world ya know? Its the same as helmet/seat belt laws. The ultra rich and huge corporations make the rules....we are just forced to play by them.

My opinion is this. A new born child has more right to his foreskin than his parents do. If there is something medically wrong and it would be in the best interest for overall health then yes do it but for religious reasons? I don't see it. What if the kids grows up and has a different view of religion that the parents? What about the complications both future and current?

Im not saying its wrong to have your children circumcised. And i also don't agree with government telling me what to do....BUT it is also a forced amputation basically. And isn't it kinda saying that God messed up making man?

Dickleaker · Jun 26, 2012

sorry guys double post...got heated up on this issue

Dickleaker · Jun 26, 2012

I think its a step in the right direction for the rights of the baby boy who has no say in the alteration of his body. Because its sanctioned by religions doesn't mean its the right thing to do .There are so many bad things done in our history in the name of religion.AND if God's main premise is to love thy neighbor i think we can do that with a foreskin.

Germany should be proud on this one.

There are countries in the middle east who were(are still?) removing the clitoris of baby girls for cultural reasons.Would you do that to your newly born daughter?

pest · Jun 27, 2012

Germany, as usual, leading the fight for good sense, ethical justice (not moral justice).

If I was to cut my child, in any way, shape or form because I believed it to be a good idea or his only way into a school or heaven or whatever I'd be sent to jail, and rightly so.

MAXAMEYES · Jun 27, 2012

All this means is that "courts" now have more control of children than parents do.
Now the courts can mandate just about anything; how about mandatory appendectomies?
You really don't need them, now do ya?
Tonsillectomies, wisdom teeth....forced sterilization.

Once children become wholesale property of the state; all bets are off.
Read up a little on Eugenics, and the ardent embracing of it displayed by practically all of the Nordic countries.

DLD · Jun 27, 2012

MAXAMEYES;486271 said:
Once children become wholesale property of the state; all bets are off./QUOTE]

I was a ward of the state most most of my childhood and the damage that was done to me still lingers into my mid-40's. They took a beautiful child, with a wonderful mind and turned him into a monster.

pest · Jun 28, 2012

Under certain religions if you steal you have your hand cut off.

In Germany, if your child steals and you cut off their hand your beliefs will not protect you from the law.

Similarly, if you cut your child for a non-medical procedure your beliefs will not protect you from the law. To suggest circumcision is in anyway similar to removal of wisdom teeth or the appendix is completely fallacious.

If you believe your child is possessed by the devil, and beat the child in an effort to exercise the spirit, your beliefs will not protect you from the law.

The law, when it comes to the protection of children is a very delicate and difficult area. Wherever possible, if there is a black and white issue, the law should be put in place, and where the issue is gray, the law should protect the family and the child. Check out German law, and German society generally ... 20 years ago they subsumed a former eastern bloc country and just look at how well they are doing.

DLD · Jun 28, 2012

pest;486377 said:
If you believe your child is possessed by the devil, and beat the child in an effort to exercise the spirit, your beliefs will not protect you from the law.

Oh shit, I am in trouble

MAXAMEYES · Jun 28, 2012

Holy fuck did you miss the point.

pest;486377 said:
Under certain religions if you steal you have your hand cut off.

In Germany, if your child steals and you cut off their hand your beliefs will not protect you from the law.

Similarly, if you cut your child for a non-medical procedure your beliefs will not protect you from the law. To suggest circumcision is in anyway similar to removal of wisdom teeth or the appendix is completely fallacious.

If you believe your child is possessed by the devil, and beat the child in an effort to exercise the spirit, your beliefs will not protect you from the law.

The law, when it comes to the protection of children is a very delicate and difficult area. Wherever possible, if there is a black and white issue, the law should be put in place, and where the issue is gray, the law should protect the family and the child. Check out German law, and German society generally ... 20 years ago they subsumed a former eastern bloc country and just look at how well they are doing.

Gumbercules · Jul 1, 2012

MAXAMEYES;486436 said:
Holy fuck did you miss the point.

Actually, it's you who is totally missing the point. Circumcision is unnecessary destructive surgery on a healthy part of a healthy patient who doesn't consent. It is a gross violation of the most basic concept of medical ethics and human rights to perform unnecessary surgery on a healthy patient who doesn't consent.

I'm a circumcised, actually genitally mutilated male, and I had my appendix taken out a month ago. Circumcision was done for misguided and debunked cleanliness reasons, and for retarded cultural norms. I had my appendix out because I would have died otherwise. You take tonsils out because they are not healthy. You remove wisdom teeth if they aren't coming in correctly. Nowhere in medicine is it ethical to amputate a normal, healthy, functional body part simply because it MIGHT become a problem, and to do so without any consent whatsoever (except the foreskin). Heck, they made me sign consent forms to have my appendix taken out, even though I was a dead man without having it done. To equate the two, is insane.

Genital integrity is a basic human right, for girls, AND boys. It's about fucking time someone stood up for boys and their right not to be victims of sexual torture and mutilation, and lifelong disfigurement and sexual dysfunction and loss of sensation.

Cutting the genitals of a child, is simply sick. It's a relic of Bronze Age barbarism that will one day be viewed universally the way we all view slavery now.

Gumbercules · Jul 1, 2012

doublelongdaddy;486222 said:
Parents having their sons circumcised can be brought before a judge for causing bodily injury, even if they did so for religious reasons, a regional court in Germany has ruled.

The recent landmark decision will likely draw the condemnation of Jewish and Muslim communities, although official representatives have refrained from commenting so far, saying they first want to study the reasons given for the judgment.
Following the judgment by the District Court of Cologne, neither the rights of parents nor the constitutional freedom of religion can justify interventions such as circumcision, according to Financial Times Deutschland, which first reported the story.

Continue Reading

If it's fundamentally wrong to perform any degree of cutting of the genitals of a girl unless absolutely necessary for medical reasons, it's fundamentally wrong to do so to a boy. The court is right. Circumcision is sexual torture and mutilation, literally disfiguring child rape. It's a sexual assault of the worst kind. A woman can get over rape. At least she has her genitals intact. I'd take it up the ass numerous times if it meant having my foreskin back.

Genital integrity is a human right, not simply a women's right.

This court was absolutely right. The State must intervene when children are being harmed. If you cut off your child's ear, they could still hear. Yet you would have your child take from you, and you would go to prison. Cut of part of their genitals, obviously a much more serious attack, for it attacks a person's sexuality, and the same should result.

In the not too distant future, this will be banned in the civilized world. Not to mention the fact that if boys aren't protected from genital cutting, the current ban on female genital cutting is unconstitutional, for it denies men equal protection under the law from unnecessary genital cutting, equal protection under the law being guaranteed by the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

MAXAMEYES · Jul 2, 2012

Since we're hypothesizing here:
In the not so distant future radical Islam becomes the dominant political party in Germany. They make both male and female circucision mandatory, in accordance with Sharia Law.
Would your support of that law be as fervid and strident?
After all; the law is the law.

And once your family is subservient to "The Law, The State, The Nameless-Faceless-Totally-Unaccountable" Government your children have become PROPenis EnlargementRTY OF THAT GOVERNMENT.
They are no longer your family, your offspring...your children: They are wards of the state. And you, my friend, are simply a temporary steward entrusted with their care until such time as "The State" deems you unfit, for whatever legal, ostensible or specious reason.

To give any government complete authority to make such fundamental decisions on such a universal scale, with prejudice and without exception or recourse, is to give government complete authority over every aspect and phase of an individuals life.

And no government either deserves or can effectively dispense that degree of control.

Gumbercules;486701 said:
If it's fundamentally wrong to perform any degree of cutting of the genitals of a girl unless absolutely necessary for medical reasons, it's fundamentally wrong to do so to a boy. The court is right. Circumcision is sexual torture and mutilation, literally disfiguring child rape. It's a sexual assault of the worst kind. A woman can get over rape. At least she has her genitals intact. I'd take it up the ass numerous times if it meant having my foreskin back.

Genital integrity is a human right, not simply a women's right.

This court was absolutely right. The State must intervene when children are being harmed. If you cut off your child's ear, they could still hear. Yet you would have your child take from you, and you would go to prison. Cut of part of their genitals, obviously a much more serious attack, for it attacks a person's sexuality, and the same should result.

In the not too distant future, this will be banned in the civilized world. Not to mention the fact that if boys aren't protected from genital cutting, the current ban on female genital cutting is unconstitutional, for it denies men equal protection under the law from unnecessary genital cutting, equal protection under the law being guaranteed by the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

DLD · Jul 2, 2012

MAXAMEYES;486749 said:
Since we're hypothesizing here:
In the not so distant future radical Islam becomes the dominant political party in Germany. They make both male and female circucision mandatory, in accordance with Sharia Law.
Would your support of that law be as fervid and strident?
After all; the law is the law.

And once your family is subservient to "The Law, The State, The Nameless-Faceless-Totally-Unaccountable" Government your children have become PROPenis EnlargementRTY OF THAT GOVERNMENT.
They are no longer your family, your offspring...your children: They are wards of the state. And you, my friend, are simply a temporary steward entrusted with their care until such time as "The State" deems you unfit, for whatever legal, ostensible or specious reason.

To give any government complete authority to make such fundamental decisions on such a universal scale, with prejudice and without exception or recourse, is to give government complete authority over every aspect and phase of an individuals life.

And no government either deserves or can effectively dispense that degree of control.

Absolute power absolutely corrupts! No exceptions.

Gumbercules · Jul 7, 2012

MAXAMEYES;486749 said:
Since we're hypothesizing here:
In the not so distant future radical Islam becomes the dominant political party in Germany. They make both male and female circucision mandatory, in accordance with Sharia Law.
Would your support of that law be as fervid and strident?
After all; the law is the law.

And once your family is subservient to "The Law, The State, The Nameless-Faceless-Totally-Unaccountable" Government your children have become PROPenis EnlargementRTY OF THAT GOVERNMENT.
They are no longer your family, your offspring...your children: They are wards of the state. And you, my friend, are simply a temporary steward entrusted with their care until such time as "The State" deems you unfit, for whatever legal, ostensible or specious reason.

To give any government complete authority to make such fundamental decisions on such a universal scale, with prejudice and without exception or recourse, is to give government complete authority over every aspect and phase of an individuals life.

And no government either deserves or can effectively dispense that degree of control.

In that case, where were you when we banned female genital cutting? Hypocrite.

Gumbercules · Jul 7, 2012

So you think parents should be able to brand their children like cattle?

For one so anti-government, you're awfully dismissive of individual rights, say, the right to one's own genitals, one's own body. Take that away, and your anti-government screed sounds awfully inconsistent.

MAXAMEYES · Jul 7, 2012

Gumbercules;490932 said:
So you think parents should be able to brand their children like cattle?

For one so anti-government, you're awfully dismissive of individual rights, say, the right to one's own genitals, one's own body. Take that away, and your anti-government screed sounds awfully inconsistent.

Instead of injecting your own prejudices and fears into your invectives and accusations, why don't you pretend that you are actually a reasonable adult, although it may be difficult for you, and simply answer the questions I have raised?

DLD · Jul 7, 2012

Sex, Religion and Government are a very scary threesome!

German judges rule parents can be brought to court for circumcising children

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